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pendell
2009-08-25, 06:41 AM
While this touches current events and so we have to be leary not to step on the minefields of religion and politics, I've been reading up a bit on the pharmacological reports surrounding Michael Jackson's departure and wonder if there's anyone here with a background in pharmacy who has any thoughts on the matter.


Full Timeline (http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20300182,00.html)



June 25: At about 1:30 a.m., Murray again tried to get Jackson to sleep without propofol and gives the singer a 10-milligram tablet of Valium, but Jackson is unable to sleep.

• Around 2 a.m.: Murray injects Jackson with two milligrams of lorazepam, pushed slowly into the singer's IV. But again, Jackson can't sleep.

• Around 3 a.m.: Murray then gives two milligrams of midazolam to Jackson, also pushed slowly into the IV. Jackson remains awake.

• Around 5 a.m.: Murray gives the singer another two milligrams of lorazepam but Jackson still can't sleep.

• Around 7:30 a.m.: Murray administers another two milligrams of midazolam. Murray claims he is continuously at Jackson's bedside, monitoring the singer with a pulse oximeter [connected to Jackson's finger] and measuring his pulse and oxygen statistics. But Jackson remains awake.

• Around 10:40 a.m.: Murray gives Jackson 25 milligrams of propofol diluted with lidocaine to keep Jackson sedated after repeated demands for the drug by the singer. Jackson finally falls asleep, and Murray continues to monitor him.

• After 10 minutes: Murray states he left Jackson's bedside to use the restroom and is gone for no more than two minutes. Upon his return, Murray finds Jackson not breathing. Murray begins CPR, and gives Jackson 0.2 milligrams of flumazenil, an antidote for certain overdoses. Using his cell phone, Murray calls Jackson's personal assistant, Michael Amir Williams, and asks him to send security upstairs for an emergency.

Murray continues CPR – and before security arrives – he leaves Jackson and runs to the hallway and downstairs to the kitchen, where he asks the chef to send up Jackson's 12-year-old son, Prince Michael I. Murray continues CPR. The boy arrives upstairs and summons security.

• At 12:21 p.m.: Jackson staff member Alberto Alvarez dials 911, and the Los Angeles Fire Department responds on the scene shortly thereafter. Murray waits for the ambulance while conducting CPR, and later accompanies Jackson to the hospital.


Further note (http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/WireStory?id=8402022&page=2)



Jason Hymes, an assistant clinical professor at the University of Southern California who is not associated with the case, said the drug [propofol] was a true anesthetic. "You administer it to somebody and then operate on them ... This concept of giving somebody a general anesthetic for sleep disturbance strikes me as just bizarre and astoundingly inappropriate."


Other comment (http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1619374/20090824/jackson_michael.jhtml)



The very potent drug, also known as Diprivan, is administered intravenously as a general anesthetic used to sedate patients for surgery and is only available to medical personnel.

"This is only meant for use in anesthesia and [administering it as a sleep aid]. It's like giving someone chemotherapy so they don't have to shave their head," veteran anesthesiologist Dr. John F. Dombrowski — who has not treated Jackson and has no information about the case, but has used propofol often in his practice — told MTV News last month. "It's one purpose is as an anesthetic, to induce that sleepy feeling, and when I run it as an IV drip, I can keep you asleep, and when I turn it off, you are quickly awake. It works in 30 seconds or so, and it is out of your system quickly when I turn it off."

Dombrowski said the drug is so powerful that it is critical to have someone in attendance who has the ability to rescue you should your breathing cease or some other critical failure occur, which is why the drug is only used in operating rooms and in doctor's offices where providers are on hand to support patients and intervene should something go wrong. "It is never used outside a medical setting during a procedure," he said. "And it is never used as a sleeping aid. I've never heard of that in my 16 years of practice."



Still more doctor's comments (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090824/ap_on_en_mu/us_michael_jackson_investigation)



"There's no surprise there" that death could result from such a combination, said Dr. David Zvara, anesthesia chairman at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

"All those drugs act in synergy with each other," Zvara said. Adding propofol on top of all the other sedatives "tipped the balance."

Besides the propofol and two sedatives, the coroner's toxicology report found other substances in Jackson's system but they were not believed to have been a factor in the singer's death, the official told the AP.

...

The 25 milligrams of propofol Murray told police he gave Jackson the day he died "is not a whopping amount," said Lee Cantrell, director of the San Diego division of the California Poison Control System. But by combining propofol with a cocktail of the other sedatives, known as benzodiazepines, it "may have been the trigger that pushed him over the edge," Cantrell said.

Cantrell said it's perplexing that someone would give various benzodiazepines if one was found not to be effective.

"This is horrible polypharmacy," he said, referring to the interaction between the various drugs. "No one will treat an insomniac like this."



Respectfully,

Brian P.

Elder Tsofu
2009-08-25, 07:49 AM
Well, in this case the doctor seemed to have combined benzodiazepines (which are if not safe considerably less dangerous than other substances in the same category (especially with the antidote flumazenil close by)) with propofol which induce the effect and may lead to depression of respiration. (alcohol also give this depression)
Overdose of benzodiazepines alone cause prolonged sleep without serious depression of respiration

He was probably stressed and in the reassurance of having an antidote for benzodiazepines close by (if anything went wrong) initiated treatment against better judgement. It seems like an human mistake, albeit with an tragic outcome.

Extra_Crispy
2009-08-26, 03:19 AM
I am a nurse and it shocked me when I heard that the doctor gave him propofol. As was said by the other doctors it is purely an anesthetic. I work in an ICU and NO other floor here but ER uses the drug because even they can not monitor the patient close enought. We only hang it on people that are to be sedated for a period of time and only if the patient is on a ventilator. As anyone who has had a tube down their throat to help them breath knows it is very uncomfortable, most people will try their best to pull that tube out no matter what AND the body naturally fights against the vent because of it forceing air into your lungs instead of negative pressure pulling air into your lungs as normal. To stop the fighting with the vent and help the patient rest so they can heal we give propofol, at high enough doses to stop that fighting they very quickly could stop breathing on their own, but again that is why they are vented.

On top of that in reading your post that the doctor also gave him midazolam a couple of times before the propofol makes me truely wonder what he was thinking. Some people are resistant to propofol, or if they have been on it a while they build up a resistance so we switch them to midazolam, also known as versed. It is another sedation drug, used purely to sedate people for surgery or like propofol to stop the struggling against the vent so they can heal. The problem with midazolam is it is slower to work (sedate someone) and slower to leave the body than propofol.

Ativan on the other had is an anti-anxiety drug. It does not have sleep inducing properties in and of it self but if it helps someone relax they can and do fall asleep.

All things considered I do think the doctor was VERY wrong in giving him these drugs. Why did he not try restiril (a sleep aid we give in the hospital) or any of a few precription SLEEP AIDS, instead of a drug that does not help you sleep but is made to completely knock your butt out? And looking closer at the time line I see that Valium was given at 1:30 and then he jumps directly to ativan (lorazepam) 30 min later, everyone knows it takes time for pills to start to work, minimum is 30 min and can be as much as more than an hour. The sleep aids we can give in the hospital always have a "may be repeated x1 in 1 hour after first dose" In other words if the first pill does not work in 1 hour you may give another 1 and if that does not work the tough, more can cause respitory depression and we do not want to do that EVEN in a hospital.

Think I am starting to rant, but as I am some one in the health care industry and work with doctors in serious acute situations, I cant stop saying that the doctor was VERY wrong in giving him those drugs just so Jackson could sleep. They were not appropriate.

Coidzor
2009-08-26, 03:23 AM
I'm moderately surprised at having access to what I would've thought would be sensitive information.

Only moderately though. Maybe just mildly.

...

• Around 10:40 a.m.: -snip-

• After 10 minutes: Murray states he left Jackson's bedside to use the restroom and is gone for no more than two minutes. Upon his return, Murray finds Jackson not breathing.

Murray continues CPR – and before security arrives – he leaves Jackson and runs to the hallway and downstairs to the kitchen, where he asks the chef to send up Jackson's 12-year-old son, Prince Michael I. Murray continues CPR.

• At 12:21 p.m.: Jackson staff member Alberto Alvarez dials 911, and the Los Angeles Fire Department responds on the scene shortly thereafter. Murray waits for the ambulance while conducting CPR, and later accompanies Jackson to the hospital.

...That would mean that he's performing CPR and ****ing around from about 10:52AM to sometime after 12:21PM by that timeline. Almost ninety minutes. @_@

...

Jack Squat
2009-08-26, 06:19 AM
...That would mean that he's performing CPR and ****ing around from about 10:52AM to sometime after 12:21PM by that timeline. Almost ninety minutes. @_@


yeah, I'm wondering why it took that long for anyone to dial 911. Were they trying to keep it quiet? It says he asked the chef to send up Jackson's kid. Why didn't he have the chef call? Or why didn't the kid call after he saw what was going on?

I think there's a lot more blame to go around than just on the doctor, who was trying to get Jackson off of propofol because he feared Jackson was getting addicted to it, hence the cocktail.

Extra_Crispy
2009-08-26, 07:21 AM
Propofol really is not addictive. Your body can and does build a resistance to it so you would need more to do the same effect. Though I have seen people get addicted to some of the strangest things so you probably could get addicted to propofol, but he should not have been given the propofol in the first place to help him sleep, he should never have had the chance to build a resistance or addiction. Then giving him the "cocktail " of more sedation medication (midazolam) to get him off another sedation medication? Thats like giving someone cocaine to get them off crack, ya they may stop using it but now they are going to be using something just as bad.

Jack Squat
2009-08-26, 08:01 AM
Propofol really is not addictive. Your body can and does build a resistance to it so you would need more to do the same effect. Though I have seen people get addicted to some of the strangest things so you probably could get addicted to propofol, but he should not have been given the propofol in the first place to help him sleep, he should never have had the chance to build a resistance or addiction. Then giving him the "cocktail " of more sedation medication (midazolam) to get him off another sedation medication? Thats like giving someone cocaine to get them off crack, ya they may stop using it but now they are going to be using something just as bad.

I'm just quoting what a Yahoo article (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090824/ap_en_mu/us_michael_jackson_investigation) I read yesterday said.


A search warrant affidavit unsealed Monday in Houston includes a detailed account of what Murray told investigators.
According to the document, Murray said he'd been treating Jackson for insomnia for about six weeks with 50 milligrams of propofol every night via an intravenous drip. But he said he feared Jackson was forming an addiction to the anesthetic, which is normally used in hospitals only, and was attempting to wean his patient by lowering the dose to 25 milligrams and adding the sedatives lorazepam and midazolam.
That combination succeeded in helping Jackson sleep two days prior to his death, so the next day, Murray told detectives he cut off the propofol — and Jackson fell asleep with just the two sedatives.
Then around 1:30 a.m. on June 25, starting with a 10-milligram tab of Valium, Murray said he tried a series of drugs instead of propofol to make Jackson sleep. The injections included two milligrams of lorazepam around 2 a.m., two milligrams of midazolam around 3 a.m., and repeats of each at 5 a.m. and 7:30 a.m. respectively.
But they didn't work.
Murray told detectives that around 10:40 a.m. he gave in to Jackson's "repeated demands/requests" for propofol, which the singer referred to as his "milk." He administered 25 milligrams of the white-colored liquid, — a relatively small dose — and finally, Jackson fell asleep.
Murray remained with the sedated Jackson for about 10 minutes, then left for the bathroom. No more than two minutes later, he returned — and found Jackson had stopped breathing.

I don't really have a clue about hospital use sedatives, as we didn't really cover anything stronger than Excedrin in my FA class. I'll take your word for it.

I'm still wondering why it took them an hour and a half to call emergency services. Heck, with everyone having cell phones capable of speaker phone, the doctor could have done it himself while giving CPR if no one else was around (which obviously isn't the case, since he went to the chef to get Jackson jr. and security was mentioned).

pendell
2009-08-26, 10:41 AM
I'm still wondering why it took them an hour and a half to call emergency services. Heck, with everyone having cell phones capable of speaker phone, the doctor could have done it himself while giving CPR if no one else was around (which obviously isn't the case, since he went to the chef to get Jackson jr. and security was mentioned).


The most likely explanation that occurs to me is that Jackson stopping breathing may have already happened more than once, and they had previously revived him with CPR without the need to summon emergency services -- therefore, when he stopped breathing again, the doctor simply decided it's just time for another kickstart (yawn). Only when it became apparent that this time was different from the others did he believe it necessary to call emergency services with all the red tape, reports, and possibly criminal charges that might result.

This would imply he knew darn well what would happen to him if the exact treatment he was giving Mr. Jackson was ever discovered by anyone else.

I'll leave it up to wiser heads to decide whether to file charges. But why on earth shouldn't he lose his medical license, if the above facts are proven beyond dispute?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Jack Squat
2009-08-26, 04:16 PM
The most likely explanation that occurs to me is that Jackson stopping breathing may have already happened more than once, and they had previously revived him with CPR without the need to summon emergency services -- therefore, when he stopped breathing again, the doctor simply decided it's just time for another kickstart (yawn). Only when it became apparent that this time was different from the others did he believe it necessary to call emergency services with all the red tape, reports, and possibly criminal charges that might result.

It doesn't really matter if CPR managed to bring him back before, it's called being a First responder for a reason. Especially in the case of CPR, which routinely breaks ribs. The patient may be stable, but they're far from needing additional professional care. This also doesn't explain why neither the chef, security, nor Jackson's son called 911, as it appears they all knew what was going on (maybe the chef didn't to the full extent, since it appears that the doctor only asked him to send up the kid).


Unless I'm mistaken, there wouldn't have been any criminal charges, as giving him the medicine at home wasn't illegal, even if it is unethical and probably stupid.


This would imply he knew darn well what would happen to him if the exact treatment he was giving Mr. Jackson was ever discovered by anyone else.

Yeah, he may lose his license, but that's not a reason to delay advanced medical care.


I'll leave it up to wiser heads to decide whether to file charges. But why on earth shouldn't he lose his medical license, if the above facts are proven beyond dispute?

He probably will lose his license since it's such a high profile case, but I think if this had taken place with a normal person in a hospital or office(since most people can't afford routine in-home care), it'd be simple malpractice. It takes a lot to actually lose your license.

The only facts here right now is that one of the various autopsies done on the body showed that the cause of death is likely due to the combination of drugs administered by the doctor and that there were other combinations of drugs in there that the coroner didn't think had a cause. Anything other discussion on this forum is speculation, some more informed than others.


Now, on with the rampant speculation:

It's important to note that being a coroner is as much of a practice as being a doctor and he may be mistaken as to which drugs (if any) actually caused the heart failure. Not that this excuses the doctor from his actions, but it's possible that the doctor was just doing the wrong thing at the wrong time and is an easy scapegoat. I mean, Jackson wasn't really the model for health and vitality, in addition to having been presumably addicted to prescription drugs (from multiple doctors) and alcohol since at least 2006.

Don Julio Anejo
2009-08-26, 11:59 PM
Propofol? 25 mg? As a sleep aid, after literally stuffing MJ with benzodiazepenes?

Can I punch the doctor in the face really hard please? Pretty, pretty please?

Which says a lot considering I didn't even like Michael Jackson...

Coidzor
2009-08-27, 12:09 AM
I guess it just goes to show that if you're being kept up at night by someone egging you on for drugs you can get stupider.

Or maybe just you can always get stupider.

bosssmiley
2009-08-27, 07:47 AM
Jackson chappy still dead is he? Right-oh, carry on Sgt-Major. :smallamused: