Monk/Paladin

[Whammydill]

I'm toying with a Monk/Paladin build for my next 3.5 character. Using Ascetic Knight (I think,) whats the best pathing to go with that. More monk than Paladin or vice-versa? Stay unarmed or acquire a feat that lets flurry with a weapon other than monk? Character probably won't be higher than 7-9th level.

Books we don't have/use: ToB:Bo9S, CompScoun, Any other campaign worlds' books except Eberron's mainbook(rarely used.) I don't have my book list in front of me so I can't remember what else we don't have/use. Pretty much if it wasn't published by WoTC we aren't using it. Also nothing from Dragon/Dungeon.

If deity selection is important, the pantheon is home-brewed but is close enough to a renamed Forgotten realms pantheon to be accurate.

[Atelm]

It's a pity you aren't using ToB since that would've given you the Superiour Unarmed Strike feat, which would've allowed you to do unarmed damage as if you were 4 levels higher. Still, pick up the Monk's Belt from the Dungeon Master's Guide, it has the same function only it's slightly better.

Definitely go with more Paladin levels than Monk.

[AslanCross]

There's unfortunately exactly one PrC that actually works with this build: Argent Fist. And it's an Eberron PrC (Faiths of Eberron).

[kamikasei]

See if you can get one Dragon feat approved, because you'll want one of these two and they're both from there I believe: Carmendine Monk (run Monk abilities off Charisma) or Serenity (run Paladin features off Wisdom). Either one will let you focus on just Wisdom or Charisma and get your AC bonus, save bonus, etc. all enhanced.

I'm assuming Ascetic Knight stacks Monk and Paladin for the abilities of each class? In that case you want to go with as little Monk as possible in order to benefit from the Paladin's full BAB.

[Master_Rahl22]

Ugh, Charisma is like the Monk's only dump stat, and you want a class that needs it? What are your abilities like? If it's an average point buy or something similar, you might want to find some less MAD combo. I'm currently playing a Monk2/Cleric1, going for Cleric4 and then Sacred Fist. If you're not too concerned about turning, Clerics don't really need CHA and I get buffs to make up for deficiencies in any of my physical stats.

[kpenguin]

Take a look at the Decisive Strike variant from PHB2. Its a replacement for flurry that, notably, does not including the caveat that you must be unarmored to use it.

From what my, admittedly weak, google-fu tells me, there are some who argue that this omission means that one may use Decisive Strike while wearing armor, beneficial if you're going to be a paladin, while others argue that since it replaces Flurry it is bound by the same restrictions.

Ask your GM how he rules it.

[Whammydill]

Ugh, Charisma is like the Monk's only dump stat, and you want a class that needs it? What are your abilities like? If it's an average point buy or something similar, you might want to find some less MAD combo. I'm currently playing a Monk2/Cleric1, going for Cleric4 and then Sacred Fist. If you're not too concerned about turning, Clerics don't really need CHA and I get buffs to make up for deficiencies in any of my physical stats.


Yeah, I figured it'd be MAD. We typically use 28pt buy, utilizing the table on p.169 in the DMG. Sometimes we use up to 32, but the campaign it may be used in, is 28.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

The feat Serenity allows you to use your Wis mod to fuel your paladin's Cha based abilities.

[Person_Man]

In most cases Monk/Paladin is a very MAD, very weak combination. Ascetic Knight lets your levels stack for Unarmed Damage and Smite damage, but it does not count for Flurry, Stunning Fist uses, Smite uses, spells, Special Mount, or Lay on Hands. And thus it's pretty much a waste of a feat.

If I had to play it, I'd go Monk 2/Paladin 4/PrC X. Evasion, Divine Grace, Turn Undead (to fuel Divine Feats). But keep in mind that without high Wis, your AC and Stunning Fist will suck, and without high Cha, there's no reason to have Divine Grace or Turn Undead. But really, I'd just play a strait Paladin and say that I had monkish training, or vice verses.

You might also want to look into:

Intuitive Attack (Book of Exalted Deeds) which allows you to use your Wis bonus for your To-Hit bonus with simple or natural weapons.

Travel Devotion: Burn a Turn Undead use to gain free movement every round for the next minute.

Stand Still: Your damage is going to suck. So pick up a reach weapon and focus on battlefield control. Although this feat deals no damage, unlike Trip or Bull Rush, this feat is unaffected by size, almost always works, and has few pre-reqs. Remember, enemies cannot Charge through occupied squares, and take penalties if try to squeeze into the same square to fight you. Requires Combat Reflexes. Expanded Psionics Handbook and SRD.

Wands: Remember, a single level of Paladin entitles you to use all of their spell trigger items, even if you can't currently cast their spells. Dungeonscape has wand chambers and bracers, which let you easily store and use them without having to drop your weapon.

[Whammydill]

Ok, these dragon feats must be in a book I don't have. Where can I find Serenity?

[kpenguin]

The feat Serenity allows you to use your Wis mod to fuel your paladin's Cha based abilities.

This.

Definitely this.

Its from Dragon Magazine, though, so I doubt its available to you.

[Whammydill]

This.

Definitely this.

Its from Dragon Magazine, though, so I doubt its available to you.


Ahh, yeah I'd have to make a diplomacy check with the DM.

[kamikasei]

Sorry, yes, when I said "Dragon feats" I meant "from Dragon magazine" not "you have to be a dragon" or anything like that.

Unfortunately though, I was mistaken about Carmendine Monk. It's from Champions of Valor, but it only grants Int to AC and in place of Wis for some DCs. (Isn't that what Kung Fu Genius is for?) Is there no Charismatic Monk feat? I really liked the idea of shirtless paladonk breaking faces with the power of his righteous hawtness.

[Waargh!]

Well, you can just stay unarmed. There are some bonuses if you have a weapon, like have a silver/adamantine weapon to overcome some damage reductions. And you could spend a +1 from the weapon to be able to channel your stunning fist ability. But I say just stay unarmed.

The thing to consider is this. You are basically fighting as a monk, even though you would rp as a combination of both. So think what do I need from the Paladin class?
Paladins get there best abilities in their first two levels. But if you want to benefit from Divine Grace you need to have a high charisma. So you would need str, dex, wis, cha. So generally really good stats.
Depending on your Charisma score you can have 4 level of Paladin to get Turn Undead and get some divine feats like Divine Might.

Generally most of the times a normal monk would be better, except if you rolled 4 high stats. So the best would be just to take 1 level of Paladin in the end. Or maybe 2 if you can benefit from Divine Grace. In higher levels you might consider taking 2 more levels of Paladin. More attack and you can use the divine might feat for extra damage. After 4 level Paladins don't really offer anything usefull for monk/oaladin

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Sorry, yes, when I said "Dragon feats" I meant "from Dragon magazine" not "you have to be a dragon" or anything like that.

Unfortunately though, I was mistaken about Carmendine Monk. It's from Champions of Valor, but it only grants Int to AC and in place of Wis for some DCs. (Isn't that what Kung Fu Genius is for?) Is there no Charismatic Monk feat? I really liked the idea of shirtless paladonk breaking faces with the power of his righteous hawtness.

Aescetic Sorcerer.

Paladin can switch to Cha based if they take the feat Dynamic Priest, Dragonlance, which lets you use Cha for spells per day and spells/day, I believe.

[kpenguin]

By the way, if you don't have that issue of Dragon, you can find the Serenity feat here (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Serenity,all).

[Mongoose87]

There's unfortunately exactly one PrC that actually works with this build: Argent Fist. And it's an Eberron PrC (Faiths of Eberron).

At least it's in a book he can use.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Get the Exhalted Feat Touch of Golden Ice? Every time you touch an Evil creature, they get affected with the disease ravage of Golden Ice.

[mostlyharmful]

Do you really need actual levels in Monk? A monk's belt gives plenty of the core bits and bobs of monkishness without giving up the level appropriate class features of whatever else you go into. Not knocking the idea of a holy warrior that fights unarmoured but are you after the flavour or the mechanics?

[Whammydill]

Outstanding replies! I knew going in this wasn't the best optimizable build but it should be fun to roleplay. I just wanted to make sure it wasn't total pants.

[woodenbandman]

Monk(Decisive Strike) 2/Paladin 4/Fist of Ralziel 10/Paladin +4

Gets more spells, and I guess you could take that feat Ascetic Knight, but really you'll probably want to focus on your paladin, like, a lot more.

A good variant to use is that Half Orc paladin substitution level divine fury, which is similar to a rage (races of destiny). It's a morale bonus, so it isn't as good as a rage, but doesn't restrict your actions and it's overall better than smite because it applies on all attacks made in a round and lasts all battle provided you have good charisma (or wisdom in case Serenity is allowed). Flurry of Blows, anyone? So combined with Stunning Flurry as well as perhaps the Flay feat, you'll be pretty set as a power attack monkey. Despite what people say, it's perfectly viable to use a medium BAB class to Power Attack, and your end BAB should end up at 17 or higher, so you're good.

If you use the variant, talk to your DM about having prestige classes grant more uses of the ability.

If you want to keep going with unarmed damage exclusively, then you could check out Sacred Fist, a full BAB 10/10 (check the text) casting class with the caveat that you're not allowed to use weapons ever. it improves your AC bonus and your unarmed damage as well. I'd recommend, however, that you go with 2HW flurry or Decisive Strike, especially if you're going for the Righteous Fury variant.

[FMArthur]

Your stats will need to be low-ish to get any use out of your abilities. Among other things, your AC will suffer badly. If you really want to go unarmored (required for most monk abilities), there are a few ways to cheaply increase your AC: Bracers of Armor +2 is 4000gp, Amulet of Natural Armor +1 is 2000gp, and Ring of Protection +1 is 2000gp. From there you can add a +2 enhancement bonus to Wisdom to your amulet (using the rules from MIC p234), then do the same for your bracers for +2 to Dexterity (those improvements are 4000gp each). Doing this you can improve your AC by 6 for 16000gp, which you should be able to get by 7th level.

But what a tremendous waste. :smallfrown:
There are very few multiclass combinations that are screwed as hard as monk+paladin. You may be able to achieve the same character idea with simply cleric or monk/cleric.

[kpenguin]

CW Samurai + Monk, perhaps?

[Whammydill]

Yes it seems that Cleric/monk is the way to go. I can just make him LG and roleplay him the same.

[Jack Zander]

Grab Heironeous as your deity and the War Domain, so you've still got a longsword.

I played a cleric once with the war and destruction domains so I had the longsword plus the smite ability. I told everyone in my group (except the DM) that I was playing a paladin. I took Detect Evil as my 1st level spell every slot, so it seemed like I had unlimited uses. I kept my feats to things like Iron Will so my saves would be somewhat emulated. When my "paladin" was doing things like turning hordes of undead with a few HD more than he had, and using "lay on hands" several times each day, they never caught on. They just assumed I found some broken paladin rules and told me not to play that build again.

Then my DM and I showed them all my character sheet. They still couldn't figure it out.

[elliott20]

plus with the right buffs, you'll be fighting better than a paladin anyway.

[Leon]

CW Samurai + Monk, perhaps?

That's dragging the good name of the monk down into the mud

[ErrantX]

Yes it seems that Cleric/monk is the way to go. I can just make him LG and roleplay him the same.

Yeah, without access to Eberron books for Argent Fist or homebrew things, you're better off pretending to be a paladin with the cleric class. Add a monk's belt into the equation and you'll be pretty good.

Another idea is to take levels in a psionic class like psychic warrior or ardent and call yourself a paladin. Take stuff like Empathic Transfer so you can heal people, and there are powers that will improve your stats and saves. The only trick to that is to be supremely effective you'll need a feat from Eberron (noticing a trend yet?) called Tashalatora which tacks monk onto a psychic class. Otherwise, Monk's Belt and Supreme Unarmed Strike and a small dip into monk.


Grab Heironeous as your deity and the War Domain, so you've still got a longsword.

I played a cleric once with the war and destruction domains so I had the longsword plus the smite ability. I told everyone in my group (except the DM) that I was playing a paladin. I took Detect Evil as my 1st level spell every slot, so it seemed like I had unlimited uses. I kept my feats to things like Iron Will so my saves would be somewhat emulated. When my "paladin" was doing things like turning hordes of undead with a few HD more than he had, and using "lay on hands" several times each day, they never caught on. They just assumed I found some broken paladin rules and told me not to play that build again.

Then my DM and I showed them all my character sheet. They still couldn't figure it out.

That's awesome, good show sir :) +1

-X

[Cieyrin]

Serenity is also in the Dragon Compendium, which is somewhat more amenable to the anti-Dragon mentality. It's also the preferable option, I'd say, as all the only Charisma substitution I'm aware of, Ascetic Mage, requires further multiclassing and only changes your Wisdom to AC to Charisma to AC, anyways. Serenity does all Paladian features to Wisdom and has no silly prereqs.

I'd also think about some of the alternate flurry weapon feats available in Eberron, like Whirling Steel Strike (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Whirling_Steel_Strike,) with longsword, given their commonness, makes them more likely to appear in the hands of baddies and more amenable to your looting needs, especially if your after a Holy Avenger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#holyAvenger).

[Everyman]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't Monk 2/Cleric X (Destruction and Good/Sun/Healing) work well for this? It would emulate a lot of the abilities that you'd get from a monk/paladin build. Just take the extra smite feat once or twice, and you've got a perfectly viable "paladin" build. The only advantage you'd be lacking would be divine grace (which won't be too noticable with so many good saves) and lay on hands (which can be replaced by good ol' cure spells). Even the ho-hum BAB you'll have won't matter because of cleric buffs.

Just a thought.

PS. This build does need a monk's belt if you want your kung-fu to be strong.

[Person_Man]

Yes it seems that Cleric/monk is the way to go. I can just make him LG and roleplay him the same.

Actually, Cleric 5/Full Caster PrC X is going to be stronger then Monk X/Cleric Y/PrC Z. If you want Evasion, you can buy a ring or take levels of Divine Oracle (which grants Evasion in armor). Unarmed Strike is pointless unless you optimize it fully (Monk/Psychic Warrior/Fist of the Forest/etc). And the bonus feats are less powerful then access to higher level spells.

Or if you really just want to play a Monk, then play a Monk. There are ways to optimize Stunning Fist, Flurry, and Grapple. You won't be as strong as other builds, but you also won't be as weak as some multiclass hybrid.


Get the Exhalted Feat Touch of Golden Ice? Every time you touch an Evil creature, they get affected with the disease ravage of Golden Ice.

Save DC for Touch of Golden Ice is DC 12, IIRC. So it's useless beyond low levels.

[quick_comment]

Save DC for Touch of Golden Ice is DC 12, IIRC. So it's useless beyond low levels.

No its not. With 6 attacks, you have a 26% chance of the target rolling a 1. With 12 attacks, it goes up to 45%

[Eldariel]

+1 Sacred Fist. Paladin and a martial Cleric of a LG deity as indistinguishable from each other fluff-wise, but Cleric actually works out for making Monk better due to Sacred Fist existing to advance both.

[Leon]

Sacred Fist is a Good Monk/Divine caster PrC, i guess that you could work it with a Pally but it'd be a bit stunted with the slow spell gain.
Ive only played it with a Druid/Monk Combo and it worked well

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't Monk 2/Cleric X (Destruction and Good/Sun/Healing) work well for this? It would emulate a lot of the abilities that you'd get from a monk/paladin build. Just take the extra smite feat once or twice, and you've got a perfectly viable "paladin" build. The only advantage you'd be lacking would be divine grace (which won't be too noticable with so many good saves) and lay on hands (which can be replaced by good ol' cure spells). Even the ho-hum BAB you'll have won't matter because of cleric buffs.

Just a thought.

PS. This build does need a monk's belt if you want your kung-fu to be strong.

Even better, with Divine Power, you have higher BAB. Also look into the spell Greater Mighty Wallop.

[Fax Celestis]

If you're set on Monk/Paladin, try Monk/Paladin/Sun Soul Monk (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050601a&page=4). And take the Serenity feat, which lets you switch your Paladin stuff to Wis-based. Wis-to-AC + Wis-to-Saves is pretty nice.

[Eldariel]

Sacred Fist is a Good Monk/Divine caster PrC, i guess that you could work it with a Pally but it'd be a bit stunted with the slow spell gain.
Ive only played it with a Druid/Monk Combo and it worked well

I meant going Monk 2/Cleric 3/Sacred Fist -> That's just the same as a Paladin/Monk fluff-wise, but with 100% more 1-stat focus, synergy, Sacred Fist and overall, functionality.

[Decoy Lockbox]

Outstanding replies! I knew going in this wasn't the best optimizable build but it should be fun to roleplay. I just wanted to make sure it wasn't total pants.

I havn't played 3.x since 4e came out, but from what I remember, a monk/paladin would in fact be the definition of total pants. It actually seems like it would be far worse than a simple "greatsword+power attack" fighter. Try to be considerate of the other people in your group. The cleric/monk/prc or just straight up cleric would be better ideas.

[Human Paragon 3]

This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112552&highlight=juris&page=2) has a good build for strait monk/paladin that optimizes stunning fist and smiting. Can you say DC 38 fortitude saves? There's something to be said for making a Balor go down like Bald Bull.


EDIT: Specifically I'm talking about Epinephrine's build and my subsequent reply. There's a lot of BS in that thread too, including the obligatory monk bashing and a weird tangent about the body mass index of a female paladin.

[Leon]

I meant going Monk 2/Cleric 3/Sacred Fist -> That's just the same as a Paladin/Monk fluff-wise, but with 100% more 1-stat focus, synergy, Sacred Fist and overall, functionality.

Not doubting you.
Seems i posted 3 mins after you did and didn't read anything before i left for the night.
My post is a general it works well with Clerics/Druids probably not so much with a pally

[Whammydill]

I havn't played 3.x since 4e came out, but from what I remember, a monk/paladin would in fact be the definition of total pants. It actually seems like it would be far worse than a simple "greatsword+power attack" fighter. Try to be considerate of the other people in your group. The cleric/monk/prc or just straight up cleric would be better ideas.


Yeah, I'm trying to be considerate of the group by determining the pants factor of the paladin-monk. I will probably go with a Lawful Good Cleric/Monk/SF and roleplay the hell out of him, which is the fun part.