Question: A mind controlled caster ordering their creatures

[Lysander]

What happens if someone dominates a caster, and commands them to order a loyal creature like a simulacrum to kill them or harm them some other way? The simulacrum is intelligent so it would know that the person is mind controlled and not behaving normally, but it must obey the caster's commands. But if the caster is controlled, would it recognize those orders as coming from the caster?

[Thatguyoverther]

I'd have the simulacrum make a sense motive check. If it succeeds it apologizes profusely before ripping it's master apart.

[tyckspoon]

The caster says "Huh? Hell no!", rolls another save, and if he fails it waits for new orders:


Subjects resist this control, and any subject forced to take actions against its nature receives a new saving throw with a +2 bonus. Obviously self-destructive orders are not carried out. Once control is established, the range at which it can be exercised is unlimited, as long as you and the subject are on the same plane. You need not see the subject to control it.

It depends on the particular form of domination, but usually to get somebody to do something blatantly self-harmful in D&D you need an effect on the magnitude of Mind Rape (or a carefully framed Suggestion. Or the psionic power Death Urge.. but generally speaking you can't do it with general-purpose Charm/Dominate effects.)

[quick_comment]

It doesnt have to be obviously harmful.

Order: Order your golem army and simulacrum to obey me as they would obey you.

[Lysander]

The caster says "Huh? Hell no!", rolls another save, and if he fails it waits for new orders:


It depends on the particular form of domination, but usually to get somebody to do something blatantly self-harmful in D&D you need an effect on the magnitude of Mind Rape (or a carefully framed Suggestion. Or the psionic power Death Urge.. but generally speaking you can't do it with general-purpose Charm/Dominate effects.)

But what if it isn't directly suicidal. What if it's something like "Destroy all my magic items!" or "throw my beloved pet dog into the lava pit!"

[Blue Ghost]

Well, the orders are coming from the dominated caster's mouth, so I would rule that yes, the simulacrum would have to obey, barring the "no suicidal orders" clause.

I have a related question: What if you dominate another caster, and command him to dominate you? How would two casters dominating one another work?

[hewhosaysfish]

Well, the orders are coming from the dominated caster's mouth, so I would rule that yes, the simulacrum would have to obey, barring the "no suicidal orders" clause.

I have a related question: What if you dominate another caster, and command him to dominate you? How would two casters dominating one another work?

You would stand there staring into space until either the other caster gave you an order or the duration of the Dominate expired.
The other caster would stand there staring into space until either you gave him in order or the duration of the Dominate expored.

So, basically, it comes down to whose spell wears off first.

Unless, of course, you gave the other caster orders along the lines of:
"Cast Dominate Person on me then order me to carry on as if nothing were any different."
or
"Cast Dominate Person on me then carry on as if you were not Dominated."

[bosssmiley]

I'd resolve it with new Will saves for the dominated caster and for the simu'. If the player wants to explore edge cases like that then the dice gods should have a say.

[Emy]

Unless, of course, you gave the other caster orders along the lines of:
"Cast Dominate Person on me then order me to carry on as if nothing were any different."
or
"Cast Dominate Person on me then carry on as if you were not Dominated."

This would actually give both casters a bit of extra protection. Anyone that wants to mind-control one of them has to win a Cha check vs. the other one, after dealing with spell resistance and saves and all that. It's like adding a second save. Or a third, with slippery mind.

The check is made each round, so it's not perfect, but if you are in a party where you actually trust an ally to cast dominate person on you and not abuse it, it helps. Not as much as protection from evil, though.

[Optimystik]

But what if it isn't directly suicidal. What if it's something like "Destroy all my magic items!" or "throw my beloved pet dog into the lava pit!"

Those would both be fine, unless the dog or the magic items were keeping the victim alive in some way.