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Bogardan_Mage
2009-08-25, 11:04 PM
As you know, languages in D&D leave much to be desired. Two skill points (or even one, if you're a Bard or some other class with Speak Language) and you know everything there is to know about a given language. There have been many attempts at amending this. This is mine:

Firstly, all characters can speak their automatic languages fluently. They automatically succeed on any checks related to that language. The same is true of that language's alphabet, except in the case of illiterate characters (such as barbarians). Characters do not recieve bonus languages for high Intelligence scores. Instead, intelligent characters speak the languages they learn more fluently. At the DM's discretion, a character may begin with fluent languages not normally on his race's automatic language list (for example, a non-Elf character raised by Elves would speak Elven, possibly at the expense of one of his regular automatic languages). Druids speak Druidic fluently, this is learned as part of their regular class training.

The Speak Language skill has been expanded, thus:

Speak Language (Int; Trained Only)
Like Craft, Knowledge, Perform, or Profession, Speak Language is actually a number of separate skills. You could have several Speak Language skills, each with its own ranks, each purchased as a separate skill.
Each Speak Language skill corresponds to a different language.

Check:
Use Speak Language to determine a character's fluency in the selected language.

{table=head]Task|DC

Make self understood|7

Understand others|8

Understand unusual or complex word|12

Disguise accent|15[/table]

Make self understood/Understand others: In normal conversation, assume that all parties are taking 10. The DCs for these actions, therefore, apply only to unusual circumstances such as urgent messages (shouting a warning, for example) or situtations in which external penalties may apply to Speak Language checks.

Disguise accent: This use allows the character to imitate fluent speech. It does not allow the character to consider the language fluent in the same way his starting languages are. Additional checks must be made to maintain the same level of fluency.

Try Again:
Varies. A check to be understood can be retried as long as the listener continues listening. A check to understand a speaker may only be retried if the speaker repeats herself. A check to understand an unusual or complex word (whether spoken or recorded) may not be retried, the character either knows the word or not.

Synergy:
If you have 5 or more ranks in Speak Language you get a +2 bonus on Read Alphabet rolls for that language's alphabet. This bonus only applies once for each alphabet (even if you have 5 or more ranks in two languages with the same alphabet) but is individually applied for each different alphabet.


The other change is decoupling alphabets from languages. If you learn a language, you do not necessarily learn the alphabet. You must take ranks in the Read Alphabet skill for that alphabet. For illiterate characters, the Read Alphabet skill replaces the old method of spending two skill points to learn to read and write. As mentioned above, literate characters know the alphabets of their automatic skills flawlessly, and need not take ranks in Read Alphabet.

Below are several alphabets and languages which use them. Languages not mentioned may use one of the alphabets mentioned or may use a new alphabet.
Common (Common, Gnoll, Halfling)
Draconic (Auran, Draconic, Ignan)
Dwarven (Dwarven, Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran)
Elven (Aquan, Elven, Sylvan, Undercommon)
Infernal (Abyssal, Infernal)

Read Alphabet (Int; Trained Only)
Like Craft, Knowledge, Perform, or Profession, Read Alphabet is actually a number of separate skills. You could have several Read Alphabet skills, each with its own ranks, each purchased as a separate skill.
Each Read Alphabet skill corresponds to a different alphabet.

Check:
Use Read Alphabet to determine a character's ability to read text written in the selected alphabet. A Speak Language check may also be needed. An unknown language in a known alphabet is, of course, meaningless.

{table=head]Task|DC

Write legibly|7

Read clear text|7

Transliterate|10*

Read unclear text (such as messy handwriting)|11

Sound out unfamilar word|15

Identify language|20[/table]

Transliterate: Use to transfer text from one alphabet to another. This check must be made for both alphabets (so the character must have knowledge of both). As with any Read Alphabet check, if the character knows either alphabet flawlessly no check is needed for that alphabet. If the character knows both alphabets flawlessly, no check is needed at all.

Sound out unfamiliar word: Use to attempt to say words written in an unknown language or otherwise not understood (see Speak Language). The character has no idea whether or not his pronunciation is correct.

Identify language: Attempt to identify an unknown language written in a known alphabet. Note that the language may not necessarily be written in its usual alphabet. A failure by fewer than 5 narrows the possibilities down to a short (3 to 4) list of possible languages.

Synergy:
If you have 5 or more ranks in Speak Language you get a +2 bonus on Read Alphabet rolls for that language's alphabet. This bonus only applies once for each alphabet (even if you have 5 or more ranks in two languages with the same alphabet) but is individually applied for each different alphabet.


Language Focus [General]
You become more fluent in one language
Prerequisites: Speak Language 2 ranks
Benefits: Choose a language in which you have 2 or more ranks. You get a +2 bonus on all Speak Language checks for that language and on all Read Alphabet checks for that language's alphabet.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new language for which you fulfill the prerequisites.

Fluency [General]
You speak a language you have learned as though you were a native speaker
Prerequisites: Speak Language 5 ranks, Language Focus
Benefits: Choose a language for which you have 5 or more ranks and Language Focus. You no longer need to make Speak Language checks for that language.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new language for which you fulfill the prerequisites.

Alphabet Knowledge [General]
You are completely familiar with an alphabet you have studied
Prerequisites: Read Alphabet 5 ranks
Benefits: Choose as alphabet in which you have 5 or more ranks. You no longer need to make Read Alphabet checks for that language.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new alphabet for which you fulfill the prerequisites.

Catch
2009-08-25, 11:34 PM
I like the setup and the concept, but have to ask: Is it worth the skill points when Tongues is a 2nd / 3rd level spell?

Ravens_cry
2009-08-25, 11:38 PM
I like the setup and the concept, but have to ask: Is it worth the skill points when Tongues is a 2nd / 3rd level spell?
One could either raise the level of tongues, or even take it out entirely.

Innis Cabal
2009-08-25, 11:42 PM
One could either raise the level of tongues, or even take it out entirely.

Why? Thats like taking off the tires of a car to replace it with a series of treds. Sure its cool. But...the tires are better and you didn't have to do any work.

Godskook
2009-08-25, 11:45 PM
Under the current system, this seems too expensive, especially since Comprehend Languages is a 1st level spell. Feats, also, are a rare commodity for something like this.

Also, removing the bonus languages for a high int modifier seems dumb.

Kyeudo
2009-08-25, 11:47 PM
The language system in D&D is there to allow DMs to set up situations where knowledge of some language would be useful. It is very simplistic so that it can be used as just a single question. If you have to constantly make rolls in the middle of a conversation, it bogs play down.

Bogardan_Mage
2009-08-26, 02:53 AM
The language system in D&D is there to allow DMs to set up situations where knowledge of some language would be useful. It is very simplistic so that it can be used as just a single question. If you have to constantly make rolls in the middle of a conversation, it bogs play down.
But you don't, though. Regular conversation works fine with just one rank. The idea is that additional ranks still have some point, i.e. better skill with the language.

As for the spells, their levels could be raised or they could be removed outright. Alternatively, they could be altered to give bonuses to Speak Language checks. Another option is that they only allow rudimentary understanding (so 1 rank in Speak Language) and you have to earn better language skills (or have a higher level spell).

Obviously this will be less useful to some campaigns than to others. If languages are not important to the campaign then its impact will be limited, if not nonexistant. The idea is to offer a more realistic system than the current "A language = 2 skill points".

Altair_the_Vexed
2009-08-26, 03:41 AM
I agree that too many rolls can be a bad thing.
I recommend that you consider everyone to be taking 10 on Speak Language checks, unless they're trying to use the in-combat Free Action to speak (or understand) their foreign language.
EDIT:Oops! I see now that the OP already accounts for this.

Regarding the split of written and spoken language - I think this is entirely reasonable and realistic (my wife reads various Japanese characters relatively well, but is still quite halting when she speaks).
Your +2 synergy bonus really helps. Being familiar with the form of the language makes your guess work, to figure out the unfamiliar written words among the words you recognise, easier.

As for whether players will need to make too much of a skill point investment to get their characters to speak new languages... Consider this:
If one is allowed to take 10, then only 1 skill point is needed (for average INT) to make yourself understood, and understand others, and to understand unusual or complex words.
Maybe those DCs need to go a little higher? Only a little, say +2 each. That still means that one only needs to put 1 rank into the skill to get by in most situations (with average INT), but that you have to spend a little more to cope with complex discussions and difficult words, or make a check.

On the other hand, needing Feats to be truly good at languages is not a great idea - characters get few enough feats as it is. Maybe you could adapt the d20 Modern Talent "Linguist"..?

Linguist: With this talent, the Smart hero becomes a master linguist. Whenever the hero encounters a new language, either spoken or written, that he or she does not know the Smart hero can make an Intelligence check to determine if he or she can understand it. The check is made with a bonus equal to the hero’s Smart level. For a written language, the bonus applies to a Decipher Script check instead.
Prerequisites ought to be INT 13+, or Speak Language in more than two languages.
Could change the "bonus equal to the hero's Smart level" to either no bonus (cause normally you don't get to make such a check) or +2.

Just a few thoughts. :smallbiggrin:

Bogardan_Mage
2009-08-26, 04:38 AM
I agree that too many rolls can be a bad thing.
I recommend that you consider everyone to be taking 10 on Speak Language checks, unless they're trying to use the in-combat Free Action to speak (or understand) their foreign language.
You may note that in the OP I do say this! The DCs for talking and listening are only really there for when you can't take ten, or when something unpredictable gives a penalty.


As for whether players will need to make too much of a skill point investment to get their characters to speak new languages... Consider this:
If one is allowed to take 10, then only 1 skill point is needed (for average INT) to make yourself understood, and understand others, and to understand unusual or complex words.
Maybe those DCs need to go a little higher? Only a little, say +2 each. That still means that one only needs to put 1 rank into the skill to get by in most situations (with average INT), but that you have to spend a little more to cope with complex discussions and difficult words, or make a check.
Well that was the intention. I don't know, maybe the unusual words thing is too low. I wonder if I should also raise the disguise accent DC? I don't see a problem with speaking and listening, though.


On the other hand, needing Feats to be truly good at languages is not a great idea - characters get few enough feats as it is. Maybe you could adapt the d20 Modern Talent "Linguist"..?

Prerequisites ought to be INT 13+, or Speak Language in more than two languages.
Could change the "bonus equal to the hero's Smart level" to either no bonus (cause normally you don't get to make such a check) or +2.

Just a few thoughts. :smallbiggrin:
You don't actually need the feats to be truly good at languages, spending a few more skill points will allow you to speak fluently pretty much all the time. Maybe I went overboard with the feats, but really you could just get rid of them and there would be no problem. Fluency and Alphabet Knowledge just exist so that, theoretically if nothing else, learned languages can be elevated to the same rank as starting languages.

Altair_the_Vexed
2009-08-26, 06:56 AM
Sorry to have been so negligent as to miss your comment about taking 10!

With that in mind, I more strongly recommend scaling the DCs up a little.
A character with no INT bonus can speak and be understood perfectly in all situations while they are allowed to take 10, just by spending 2 skill points (or 1 if they're a bard). This is the same as the situation in the Rules As Written.

Person_Man
2009-08-26, 09:40 AM
Which one do you value more, simulation or ease of play?

If you value simulation, then having to invest a bunch of Skill points in one language makes sense. Learning a language is a very difficult and time consuming process, with many nuances (accent, slang, reading vs. speaking, etc).

If you value ease of play, then pretty much everyone should speak Common, and other languages should basically just be plot points which you can access with a spell, magic item, small Skill investment, or roleplaying (I spend a week in Chinatown, and now I can read the Chinese artifact!).

3.X D&D tends to straddle both of these. But I prefer that language stay on the ease of play side, as few players would take the situationally useful Speak Language over the near universally useful Tumble, Use Magic Device, Autohypnosis, Spot, Listen, etc.

Lysander
2009-08-26, 09:49 AM
The problem is that language in DnD is kind of like language in Star Trek. They can speak to anyone on any planet until the plot demands that they can't speak to someone.

Because if it's an encounter, few DMs are going to let you negotiate with the whatevers attacking you and avoid the fight. And if it's a social situation, the DM will make the people you're supposed to speak to know your language. And if the DM wants you to not understand someone as part of the plot, they'll just make that person not know any language you know.

So it doesn't reward players to spend a lot of skill points on language since the DM will do whatever they want. You can also simulate trying to fake an accent with a Sense Motive check, with a negative modifier based on how long they've been speaking the language and how much they use it.

DracoDei
2009-08-26, 09:58 AM
Because if it's an encounter, few DMs are going to let you negotiate with the whatevers attacking you and avoid the fight.
That can be psychology, not linguistics almost always.


And if it's a social situation, the DM will make the people you're supposed to speak to know your language. And if the DM wants you to not understand someone as part of the plot, they'll just make that person not know any language you know.
A REALLY GOOD GM will decide logically which languages someone will speak without any bias for what languages the players speak... this is also an advantage to using adventures that you wrote out before the party was formed, or were written by others.

Hijax
2009-08-26, 10:09 AM
I agree totally with person man and lysander. If dnd were trying to as realistic as possible, then your system would be kinda cool.
however, the only purpose anything in the dnd rules try to serve is that of the great god Plot, highest servant of mighty lord Fun.


A REALLY GOOD GM will decide logically which languages someone will speak without any bias for what languages the players speak... this is also an advantage to using adventures that you wrote out before the party was formed, or were written by others.

No. consider meeting a group of kobolds. either the dm wants you to mindlessly slaughter them. maybe he wants you to negotiate with them. if so, then either:
someone in the party speaks draconic. negotiation, done.
they dont. we either cant speak to the kobolds, hindering the plot, or we can hire somebody to translate, which means we're back where we started.

and, as has been noted, tongues is not a high-level spell. the need of a language system becomes zero when that comes into play, and chances are you wont get to spend many points in your speak language skill before that happens.

Altair_the_Vexed
2009-08-26, 10:41 AM
No. consider meeting a group of kobolds. either the dm wants you to mindlessly slaughter them. maybe he wants you to negotiate with them. if so, then either:
someone in the party speaks draconic. negotiation, done.
they dont. we either cant speak to the kobolds, hindering the plot, or we can hire somebody to translate, which means we're back where we started.
I disagree. Not all DMs wish to limit the encounters so much.
It is true that when I write a game, I have an idea of what the plot will be, and that tends to make me build encounters to lean a particular way. I may intend for an encounter with kobolds to be a combat.
However, I also fully intend to be reacting to what the players' characters do. My job is to realistically model the multiverse as it responds to the PCs' actions, not to dictate to the PCs what happens, no matter what they do. If the PCs want to talk to the kobolds, I'll let them, even while the kobolds are attacking, if necessary. We should reward out-of-the-box thinking, especially when it's cool or fun or extraordinary.

Anyway, that is all a discussion on playing style, which is not what this thread appears to be about - except that the added "realism" of requiring a few more points spent on languages than by the RAW is a matter of style.
If you wish to have a game which is slightly grittier and less Star Trek, then language is one way to do that. It can create a sense of place, where the locals are unintelligible, and languages are mastered slowly.
So - if you wish to have such a game, then I think the OP's rules are a good idea. Otherwise, leave it alone, sure.

Lysander
2009-08-26, 10:43 AM
No. consider meeting a group of kobolds. either the dm wants you to mindlessly slaughter them. maybe he wants you to negotiate with them. if so, then either:
someone in the party speaks draconic. negotiation, done.
they dont. we either cant speak to the kobolds, hindering the plot, or we can hire somebody to translate, which means we're back where we started.


Or, even if the DM is giving the party options, the party isn't giving the player with language skills options. All those heavily optimized warmages and barbarians don't want their smart alec linguist to prevent combat.

Person_Man
2009-08-26, 10:54 AM
As a side note, I have a very well developed homebrew campaign world based on the Roman Empire, where humans are Romans, gnomes are Greek, elves are Gallic, dwarves are Russian, and so on. There is no Common, though most people speak some Latin or Greek. The players all know this, and know know where the campaign will be taking place for any given adventure. So players who have a good Int and/or who invest a few Skill Points in Speak Language get roleplaying perks (which I encourage and reward, sometimes with bonus XP or treasure), whereas players with low Int who ignore Speak Language have to sit out some of the roleplaying.

This part of the system has worked well for me. Though you could also abolish Speak Language as a separate Skill and make it a feat or incorporate it into Knowledge (Local) instead. Or do what Bogardan_Mage suggests, but hand out a lot more Skill Points and break up each Skill to be far more granular, with each covering a narrow task (a system I wouldn't use).

DragoonWraith
2009-08-26, 11:08 AM
It's a decent system, but only fitting in a game where languages play a big role, I think. If you have a game world where there is no Common, this could be useful. The rules are clear, make sense, and are well written, I think - whether or not they are necessary depends on the needs of the game world.

Ashtagon
2009-08-26, 11:21 AM
For me, the big issue is that languages are ridiculously cheap to scoop up if you have a guy with modest Int, and really hard to simulate an ordinary commoner with good language skills.

Optimised elf bard with 18 Int can have 6 languages at 1st level, or 46 if he burns all his skill points on languages. That's kind of crazy.

otoh, plenty of RW African tribesmen speak four languages from childhood (the anglophne lack of language skills is a result of the massive economic dominance we have). 10 Int human commoners get 1 language, or 3 if they burn their skill points.

There needs to be a middle ground between these two extremes.

imp_fireball
2009-08-26, 11:25 AM
Under the current system, this seems too expensive, especially since Comprehend Languages is a 1st level spell. Feats, also, are a rare commodity for something like this.

Also, removing the bonus languages for a high int modifier seems dumb.

What if it were a low magic setting? There's plenty of useless feats out there already, and that merely corresponds to that category (category that includes useless feats like sneaky, etc.). And removing bonus languages for high int is not dumb, because why should everyone sharp person know how to speak more than one language? Has everyone of them truly studied up on it? What if they were merely uninterested?

There, a rebuttal for everything.

I like the system, especially since it splits read/write and speak into two seperate skills while requiring only one skill point for a rank in each (which, hopefully that was the intention).

Salvonus
2009-08-26, 03:53 PM
I've always liked this system (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74094) for a game wherein languages are important. It even gets around that little Comprehend Languages/Tongues problem rather nicely. :smallsmile:

Bogardan_Mage
2009-08-26, 11:19 PM
Which one do you value more, simulation or ease of play?

If you value simulation, then having to invest a bunch of Skill points in one language makes sense. Learning a language is a very difficult and time consuming process, with many nuances (accent, slang, reading vs. speaking, etc).

If you value ease of play, then pretty much everyone should speak Common, and other languages should basically just be plot points which you can access with a spell, magic item, small Skill investment, or roleplaying (I spend a week in Chinatown, and now I can read the Chinese artifact!).

3.X D&D tends to straddle both of these. But I prefer that language stay on the ease of play side, as few players would take the situationally useful Speak Language over the near universally useful Tumble, Use Magic Device, Autohypnosis, Spot, Listen, etc.
I've tried to keep it as close to "ease of play" as I can, but I find the RAW version just so far removed from reality that I felt compelled to change it. I do sympathise with the "ease of play" argument, but I must point out that it is a simulation, and taking "ease of play" to its logical extreme just has you making opposed d20 rolls against the DM with no explanation. Not to imply that that is your argument, just that there is a point where ease of play infringes on simulation, and in my view the RAW for languages passes that point (so I disagree when you say 3.X holds a happy medium between both).

I've tried to make my system workable with few major changes in your average campaign. If, for example, Common is universally spoken, there is absolutely no difference whatsoever. If there are only a few languages that make a difference, you can take 1 rank in Speak Language and in most situations you'll be able to speak it with no difficulty.

I don't think people are realising that this is more an expansion of the RAW than it is a replacement. You don't need high levels in Speak Language unless you're trying to do something complicated (like pretend to be a native speaker). You don't need the feats, at all. And most of all, it's not supposed to force the DM into making language matter or using it in an intelligent or realistic manner. I'm assuming that your DMs are human, and thus capable of rational thought and of making the campaign work with the rules they are using.

Also, as per Altair's requests I am upping some of the DCs.

mikeejimbo
2009-08-27, 12:05 PM
I can't tell you the number of times we couldn't speak a language so we ended up attacking NPCs instead.

It's less than the number of times we could speak the language but ended up attacking them anyway, of course.