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View Full Version : Tome of Battle: Maneuvers and Stances, and all that jazz



PumpkinEater
2009-08-25, 11:08 PM
Okay, I was just introduced to the Tome of Battle, and, as I was told, it seems like one of WoTC's better books. It all looks very interesting, but it's also kinda confusing. I was just wondering if any of you could give me a quick summary about it? I understand a few things, like how stances can be active as long as you're conscious, or how each martial whatever class has a different way of recovering maneuvers, but... there are a few things I still don't quite get. Like, are you allowed to pick from maneuvers, etc. from different disciplines like a wizard is able to choose from different unrestricted schools of magic?

Mongoose87
2009-08-25, 11:09 PM
Okay, I was just introduced to the Tome of Battle, and, as I was told, it seems like one of WoTC's better books. It all looks very interesting, but it's also kinda confusing. I was just wondering if any of you could give me a quick summary about it? I understand a few things, like how stances can be active as long as you're conscious, or how each martial whatever class has a different way of recovering maneuvers, but... there are a few things I still don't quite get. Like, are you allowed to pick from maneuvers, etc. from different disciplines like a wizard is able to choose from different unrestricted schools of magic?

The Martial Adept class you belong to determines the maneuvers you may choose.

Hat-Trick
2009-08-25, 11:31 PM
It's a melee casting system. I know, it's initiator levels and martial adepts, but a casting system by any other name is a casting system. Basically it's for caster lovers who want to do melee.

Anyway, answering questions:

Different martial adepts classes can learn from different disciplines. Swordsages are the only ones with access to Desert Wind, Setting Sun, and Shadow Hand. Warblades are the only ones with access to Iron Heart and Crusaders hold Devoted Spirit as their own. Every one of them has access to Stone Dragon. Diamond mind is shared by swordsages and warblades, and White raven is only for Crusaders and Warblades.

Initiator level is determined by adding the levels in one martial adept class together with half of all other levels. Example is fighter 4/warblade 2 equals warblade 4 for what maneuvers and stances he has access to.

... Blarg.

PId6
2009-08-25, 11:59 PM
It's a melee casting system. I know, it's initiator levels and martial adepts, but a casting system by any other name is a casting system. Basically it's for caster lovers who want to do melee.
They're similar in structure and in the number of options a character can perform, but the execution ends up feeling very different. For one thing, having your maneuvers usable per encounter rather than per day and refreshable makes things wholly different from the X/day vancian casting. If by "caster lover" you mean anyone who doesn't want to just say "I full attack" every round, then yes, call me caster lover.

But back to the OP, the automatic maneuvers and stances gotten by the three martial adept classes (crusader, swordsage, warblade) are based on the class themselves. Crusaders pick from Devoted Spirit, Stone Dragon, and White Raven disciplines. Swordsages pick from Desert Wind, Diamond Mind, Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, Stone Dragon, and Tiger Claw. And warblades have Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, and White Raven.

You can also take the feat "Martial Study" to receive any maneuver from any discipline, as long as you have the prerequisites for it. "Martial Stance" does the same thing for stances. Even non-martial adept classes, like the normal fighter, can take Martial Study and Martial Stance, as long as their initiator level is high enough to take the maneuver/stance they want and they qualify for the prerequisites of the maneuver/stance.

Godskook
2009-08-26, 12:02 AM
Basically it's for caster lovers who want to do melee.

Actually, its for melee lovers who don't want to be casters.

Draz74
2009-08-26, 12:13 AM
Okay, I was just introduced to the Tome of Battle, and, as I was told, it seems like one of WoTC's better books. It all looks very interesting, but it's also kinda confusing. I was just wondering if any of you could give me a quick summary about it? I understand a few things, like how stances can be active as long as you're conscious, or how each martial whatever class has a different way of recovering maneuvers, but... there are a few things I still don't quite get. Like, are you allowed to pick from maneuvers, etc. from different disciplines like a wizard is able to choose from different unrestricted schools of magic?

The most confusing thing to work through in the book is that sometimes Stances count as maneuvers, sometimes they don't. Usually, they don't. But as prerequisites for other maneuvers, they do. (Most higher-level maneuvers require a certain number of maneuvers known from the same Discipline as a prerequisite, to force characters to focus somewhat on a limited selection of disciplines.)

Any other questions? Did other posters adequately clear up the confusion over Discipline selection options for you?

Dienekes
2009-08-26, 12:16 AM
Meaningless quibbles.

It is a system that allows the use of abilities and simply for design and balancing purposes limits the amount of abilities that are usable in some way. This sort of system is used in numerous classes even in Core dnd by saying a certain ability can only be used x times per day.

It has its pros and cons but offers martial characters much needed flexibility even if it does break some peoples suspension of disbelief by claiming that a honed warrior can only use his muscles in a certain way once a battle.

Though, calling it "Blade Magic" in the maneuver section probably wasn't helping curb the angry melee lovers from bashing the system.

Frosty
2009-08-26, 12:17 AM
Meaningless quibbles.

It is a system that allows the use of abilities and simply for design and balancing purposes limits the amount of abilities that are usable in some way. This sort of system is used in numerous classes even in Core dnd by saying a certain ability can only be used x times per day.

It has its pros and cons but offers martial characters much needed flexibility even if it does break some peoples suspension of disbelief by claiming that a honed warrior can only use his muscles in a certain way once a battle.

Though, calling it "Blade Magic" in the maneuver section probably wasn't helping curb the angry melee lovers from bashing the system.

They can basj it all they want, and they can stew with their Fighters while I enjoy versatility.

Fishy
2009-08-26, 12:19 AM
The most confusing thing to work through in the book is that sometimes Stances count as maneuvers, sometimes they don't. Usually, they don't. But as prerequisites for other maneuvers, they do. (Most higher-level maneuvers require a certain number of maneuvers known from the same Discipline as a prerequisite, to force characters to focus somewhat on a limited selection of disciplines.)

Hunh? I thought Stances always counted as Maneuvers, they just don't count as Strikes, Boosts or Counters.

Mongoose87
2009-08-26, 12:19 AM
They can basj it all they want, and they can stew with their Fighters while I enjoy versatility.

Meanwhile,we dip their precious fighters and steal their bonus feats!

Draz74
2009-08-26, 12:28 AM
Hunh? I thought Stances always counted as Maneuvers, they just don't count as Strikes, Boosts or Counters.

No. For example, when your class gains a new Maneuver Known, you can't learn a Stance. (For that, you need to gain a new Stance Known.) Likewise, you can't swap a Stance out at an even-numbered level, or learn one via Martial Study, or learn one via magic item.

Elfin
2009-08-26, 12:54 AM
I can't really add much to what the others have said, but I just wanted to congratulate you on adding ToB to your repetoire. It's a great book, and a blast to play.

Tempest Fennac
2009-08-26, 12:58 AM
Also, stances are different to maneuvers due to being active perminantly, unless you change the one you're using (I agree with Elvenblade about the book being excellent as well).

lsfreak
2009-08-26, 01:04 AM
No. For example, when your class gains a new Maneuver Known, you can't learn a Stance. (For that, you need to gain a new Stance Known.) Likewise, you can't swap a Stance out at an even-numbered level, or learn one via Martial Study, or learn one via magic item.

And then they do count for the purpose of prerequisites and Discipline weapon enhancements, but not martial scripts. Confusion!

PumpkinEater
2009-08-26, 01:08 AM
Thank you all! =D

That was very helpful indeed.

I have just one last, meaningless question. Why do the pages of this book have such a cool background? Because that's what caught my eye at first. "Wow, the pages look cool!" :smallamused:

PId6
2009-08-26, 01:09 AM
It's the same with Tome of Magic. I guess they just wanted something different for the "Tome" series.

Though, I should say, disclaimer: Tome of Magic is not nearly as good as ToB. The binder is cool, but the other two are nearly worthless.

Tempest Fennac
2009-08-26, 01:15 AM
I never noticed that background until now. What is the symbol a reference to, if it's not just a random coat-of-arms-type thing?

Kaiyanwang
2009-08-26, 02:28 AM
Though, I should say, disclaimer: Tome of Magic is not nearly as good as ToB. The binder is cool, but the other two are nearly worthless.

I've not experience with the "dreaded" Truenamer (even if I think a REAL optimizer can make a good one) but if the campaign is not so high-power, shadocaster can make some point.

We use it currently in a (paradoxically) low powered gestalt campaing. It's a "Rokugan scorpion clan" flavoured Shadocaster // Shugenja specialized in heal and control and it's a blast.

sofawall
2009-08-26, 02:40 AM
I've not experience with the "dreaded" Truenamer (even if I think a REAL optimizer can make a good one)

It's called Pun-Pun.

Anyway, yeah, Item Familiars and Custom Skillboost Items make it workable, but still very weak.

PId6
2009-08-26, 03:15 AM
Anyway, yeah, Item Familiars and Custom Skillboost Items make it workable, but still very weak.
Until you get to the fun no XP cost at-will Gate ability at level 20...

Truenamer's just a big bag of laughs.

sofawall
2009-08-26, 03:21 AM
Oh, right, forgot about that.

Ok, weak until level 20.

AslanCross
2009-08-26, 05:30 AM
I never noticed that background until now. What is the symbol a reference to, if it's not just a random coat-of-arms-type thing?

It's a stylized "D&D" symbol.

lsfreak
2009-08-26, 11:30 AM
There's a few simple ways of making shadowcaster better (the writer's fixes found here (http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/184955-shadowcaster-fixes-mouseferatu.html#post3273239) and giving extra mysteries that don't fount towards bonus feats; Descent of Shadows in the Homebrew section is a complete re-outfit), and they're a better Truenaming system in the Homebrew section of the forums.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-26, 11:44 AM
Meanwhile,we dip their precious fighters and steal their bonus feats!

Warblades sappin your bonus feats? More likely than you think... (http://www.halolz.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/halolz-dot-com-teamfortress2-gogetmoremetal.jpg)

9mm
2009-08-26, 11:53 AM
My biggest complaint with ToB is the distinct lack of boosts (the maneuver type), but overall it's quite useful, even if your not playing a ToB class.

Person_Man
2009-08-26, 12:01 PM
It's also worth mentioning that the Tome of Battle is the basis for 4E, because ToB created the "per encounter" mechanic. Anywho, there are basically 4 different power models:

1) Daily: You have X powers, which you can use Y times per day. Examples: Spells, Rage, Smite, Stunning Fist.

2) Recharge: You have X powers. You can use each power whenever you want, but after you use it, you have to recharge it through some mechanic. Examples: Psionic Focus, most breath weapons, Tome of Battle, a few prestige classes, and a lot of homebrew work.

3) Pool: You have a limited power pool which only refills once per day. You can fuel all (or most) of your class abilities using this one pool, but when it runs out, you're out of power. Examples: Bardic music, Psionics, Factotum, spell points, a lot of Pathfinder.

4) Continuous: You can use any power whenever you want. Examples: Feats, Binder, Incarnum, Invocations.

When you look at a class, this is the first thing you should figure out about it. Continuous is the most powerful if your DM is fond of marathon game days. Daily powers are the most useful if the DM rarely railroads you with a beat the clock or trapped in a dungeon scenarios, as Daily powers tend to be written as the most powerful and you can always just retreat from a dungeon/castle/town/whatever, sleep, and return with your Daily powers recharged after every 1-2 combats.

tonberrian
2009-08-26, 12:17 PM
You'll notice that the background of the pages in the Tome of Battle is the same as that in the Binder section of the Tome of Magic, the best part of that book. Coincidence? I think not.

Hijax
2009-08-26, 12:34 PM
Meanwhile,we dip their precious fighters and steal their bonus feats!

meanwhile, we watch your shapr-stick poking of malevolent creatures from our private demiplanes, and laugh.

olentu
2009-08-26, 03:54 PM
It's also worth mentioning that the Tome of Battle is the basis for 4E, because ToB created the "per encounter" mechanic. Anywho, there are basically 4 different power models:

1) Daily: You have X powers, which you can use Y times per day. Examples: Spells, Rage, Smite, Stunning Fist.

2) Recharge: You have X powers. You can use each power whenever you want, but after you use it, you have to recharge it through some mechanic. Examples: Psionic Focus, most breath weapons, Tome of Battle, a few prestige classes, and a lot of homebrew work.

3) Pool: You have a limited power pool which only refills once per day. You can fuel all (or most) of your class abilities using this one pool, but when it runs out, you're out of power. Examples: Bardic music, Psionics, Factotum, spell points, a lot of Pathfinder.

4) Continuous: You can use any power whenever you want. Examples: Feats, Binder, Incarnum, Invocations.

When you look at a class, this is the first thing you should figure out about it. Continuous is the most powerful if your DM is fond of marathon game days. Daily powers are the most useful if the DM rarely railroads you with a beat the clock or trapped in a dungeon scenarios, as Daily powers tend to be written as the most powerful and you can always just retreat from a dungeon/castle/town/whatever, sleep, and return with your Daily powers recharged after every 1-2 combats.

I will note that rage is for some reason limited to only once per encounter.

Kaiyanwang
2009-08-27, 01:54 AM
I will note that rage is for some reason limited to only once per encounter.

You are right. Actually, the first time a "per encounter" mechanic came, was in 3.0 PH I guess.. :smalltongue:

Thespianus
2009-08-27, 05:01 AM
What would be a good way to introduce Tome of Battle into a campaign that's been running ToB-less for quite a while? We're at level 8 now, and I really don't think we will be making any major changes even if our DM allows the use of ToB for the next session.

However, for our Barbarian, it might make a lot of difference when she goes to Level 9 the next time we level up.

She might be taking a level of Fighter at level 9, which she then would use to pick Improved Bull Rush and Shock Trooper for her charging needs. However, with ToB available, she might also gain a Martial Maneuver and also a Martial Stance with the Martial Study and Martial Stance feats.

As you understand, I'm a total noob with ToB, and would love some input here.

What would be good for a Barbarian 7/Fighter 1 with the feats Furious Charge, Power Attack, Cleave, Extra Rage and Intimidating Rage and the Fearsome Gaze ACF (Str to Intimidate checks instead of Cha)?

Shock Trooper is a pretty sweet deal, but is there any goodies in ToB that would make things more fun for us? :)

MichielHagen
2009-08-27, 05:23 AM
What would be a good way to introduce Tome of Battle into a campaign that's been running ToB-less for quite a while? We're at level 8 now, and I really don't think we will be making any major changes even if our DM allows the use of ToB for the next session.

However, for our Barbarian, it might make a lot of difference when she goes to Level 9 the next time we level up.

She might be taking a level of Fighter at level 9, which she then would use to pick Improved Bull Rush and Shock Trooper for her charging needs. However, with ToB available, she might also gain a Martial Maneuver and also a Martial Stance with the Martial Study and Martial Stance feats.

As you understand, I'm a total noob with ToB, and would love some input here.

What would be good for a Barbarian 7/Fighter 1 with the feats Furious Charge, Power Attack, Cleave, Extra Rage and Intimidating Rage and the Fearsome Gaze ACF (Str to Intimidate checks instead of Cha)?

Shock Trooper is a pretty sweet deal, but is there any goodies in ToB that would make things more fun for us? :)

level 9 is an excelent level to put a ToB level, since it would allow you to take lvl 3 maneuvers.
The Warblade is in my opinion the easiest introduction and probably fits the Barbarian best.
Out of my head i can't say now what maneuvers to take, let me get the book....

Yuki Akuma
2009-08-27, 05:33 AM
level 9 is an excelent level to put a ToB level, since it would allow you to take lvl 3 maneuvers.
The Warblade is in my opinion the easiest introduction and probably fits the Barbarian best.
Out of my head i can't say now what maneuvers to take, let me get the book....

Nope. You have to start with 1st level maneuvers, no matter what your character level is.

Now, if you take another initiator level after that, you'll be able to skip 2nd level and go right to 3rd...

Thespianus
2009-08-27, 05:43 AM
Nope. You have to start with 1st level maneuvers, no matter what your character level is.

Now, if you take another initiator level after that, you'll be able to skip 2nd level and go right to 3rd...

So grabbing the Martial Study feat wouldn't grant any extra super duper powers? I assume that level 1 maneuvers are kinda sucky at level 9?

Would multiclassing into a Martial Adept class be a better option?

Yuki Akuma
2009-08-27, 05:49 AM
Hm? Oh! Martial Study gives you any maneuver you qualify for. But taking the first level in a martial adept class forces you to take first level maneuvers due to how the class is worded...

It's silly, but.

First level maneuvers aren't as sucky at ninth level as first level spells...

(Also note that you will not qualify for any third level maneuvers without having any first or second-level ones. All third-level maneuvers have prerequisites of at least one other maneuver of the same discipline...)

So, best idea? Take a level of Warblade, take some first-level maneuvers and a stance, then take Martial Study for a nice, shiny third-level maneuver.

MichielHagen
2009-08-27, 05:59 AM
Nope. You have to start with 1st level maneuvers, no matter what your character level is.

Now, if you take another initiator level after that, you'll be able to skip 2nd level and go right to 3rd...

That is only true for STANCES. You might want to delete this message to not confuse those not familiar with ToB.

Yuki Akuma
2009-08-27, 06:19 AM
That is only true for STANCES. You might want to delete this message to not confuse those not familiar with ToB.

Well huh. Okay, disregard.

He still won't qualify for any third level maneuvers without some first level ones, though.

And don't tell me to delete my posts.

Thespianus
2009-08-27, 06:21 AM
It seems I should hold off trying to help the Barbarian for a while until I've had access to the book for a while. ;)

MichielHagen
2009-08-27, 06:29 AM
Well huh. Okay, disregard.

He still won't qualify for any third level maneuvers without some first level ones, though.

And don't tell me to delete my posts.

Then do not confuse people.

And even your new statement is incorrect. There are PLENTY of maneuvers higher than 1st without the maneuver prerequisites...
And even then, the prerequisite is at most 1 maneuver at level 3 (not 100% sure on this one). And the level 1 stance you take will count as one of those maneuvers. So you can easily use the stance and one 1st level maneuver to take 3rd level maneuvers after that.
I don't see the problem.


It seems I should hold off trying to help the Barbarian for a while until I've had access to the book for a while. ;)

That would indeed be wise, at least someone should be familiar with whole ToB thing before you start playing with it. I believe there is a guide.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=357.0

there's also one on the wizards forum, but it's down. I just googled it, didn't read it, so i am not sure how helpful it is.

Thespianus
2009-08-27, 06:31 AM
That would indeed be wise, at least someone should be familiar with whole ToB thing before you start playing with it. I believe there is a guide.
I'm guessing our DM will be fairly familiar with it, I just figured I'd get a head start. :)

Thanks. I tried googling for guids or handbooks, but I failed utterly, mainly because gleemax is down.

MichielHagen
2009-08-27, 06:44 AM
I'm guessing our DM will be fairly familiar with it, I just figured I'd get a head start. :)

Thanks. I tried googling for guids or handbooks, but I failed utterly, mainly because gleemax is down.

If you first check with your DM if you are allowed to use ToB i am willing to lead you through the process of adding a Warblade level.
It is a good class and offers more possibilities for your character.

<edit> oh wait, you are not the Barbarian. Then ignore what i said above. If stuff like this is passed indirectly there is no opportunity to explain things to the player directly, leading to misconceptions like Yuki. Not understanding the abilities of your own character is a bad thing.

Thespianus
2009-08-27, 07:02 AM
<edit> oh wait, you are not the Barbarian.
I just play one on TV. ;)

Thanks, though. I appreciate it. The Barbarian is my girlfriend, and while she's enjoying killing things with her greatsword, she wouldn't be too enthusiastic about having to dive deep into a new set of rules. I figured I could find something relatively easy and fun to add a bit of versatility to her Chop-Chop-Cleave-routine. :)

Kaiyanwang
2009-08-27, 07:50 AM
Then do not confuse people.

And even your new statement is incorrect. There are PLENTY of maneuvers higher than 1st without the maneuver prerequisites...


Exactly. Stone Dragon has a level NINE maneuver withou prereqs.
(And if you are vulnerable to it, is quite a good blow to take for your poor bones).



Thanks, though. I appreciate it. The Barbarian is my girlfriend, and while she's enjoying killing things with her greatsword, she wouldn't be too enthusiastic about having to dive deep into a new set of rules. I figured I could find something relatively easy and fun to add a bit of versatility to her Chop-Chop-Cleave-routine. :)

Take a look on CW's Shock Trooper and Combat Bute, are charge-related Tactical feats. Their effectiveness and enjoyment depends from gamestyle and player's mindset.

Said this, you can combine tiger claw maneuvers (thematically similar to barbarians, IMHO) with the above feats, if you multiclass at high levels (and so when your girlfriend is more fond on game mehìchanics and ready to learn new ones).

You could, say, Jump as a swift action and then headlesscharge - fulleapattackattack - or combine the mongoose manevuer (you can easily take the lesser even multiclassing) to wreak havoc with combat brute.

And I'm sure that are better combos, too.

Thespianus
2009-08-27, 08:15 AM
Take a look on CW's Shock Trooper and Combat Bute, are charge-related Tactical feats. Their effectiveness and enjoyment depends from gamestyle and player's mindset.
Yeah, that's what I initially had planned (Fighter level 2 at char-level 9, getting Improved Bull Rush and then Shock Trooper)

I know that Shock Trooper is very powerful, but then I've heard so much stuff about ToB that I was wondering if there's anything even tougher in ToB.

But Shock Trooper is a good start :)

Kaiyanwang
2009-08-27, 08:44 AM
Yeah, that's what I initially had planned (Fighter level 2 at char-level 9, getting Improved Bull Rush and then Shock Trooper)

I know that Shock Trooper is very powerful, but then I've heard so much stuff about ToB that I was wondering if there's anything even tougher in ToB.

But Shock Trooper is a good start :)

I'm pretty sure that people with more ToB could suggest better things. But my point was a good comprmise between combine the feats she took til now with ToB, and do it at levels she is enough inside game mechanics.

lsfreak
2009-08-27, 09:13 AM
And, if I recall correctly from the way the FAQ ruled something, the maneuvers you get at Warblade1 can be used as prerequisites for other maneuvers you get at Warblade1. In other words, grabbing one no-prereq 2nd-level maneuver and one 3rd-level maneuver that requires "One <Discipline> maneuver" on your first level is perfectly legal.

As always, take FAQ rulings with a grain of salt. I allow it myself, as otherwise switching into ToB classes beyond the first few levels is a fairly useless first level, which is something ToB tried to get away from.

Kaiyanwang
2009-08-27, 09:18 AM
And, if I recall correctly from the way the FAQ ruled something, the maneuvers you get at Warblade1 can be used as prerequisites for other maneuvers you get at Warblade1. In other words, grabbing one no-prereq 2nd-level maneuver and one 3rd-level maneuver that requires "One <Discipline> maneuver" on your first level is perfectly legal.

As always, take FAQ rulings with a grain of salt. I allow it myself, as otherwise switching into ToB classes beyond the first few levels is a fairly useless first level, which is something ToB tried to get away from.

IMHO this fits perfectly with the purpose of the book (as you said) and with similar game mechanics.

Say a fighter with combat expertise reaches level 12. He can choose 1 feat as fighter bonus feat, and the other as character feat. Couldn't he take Improved Trip and Knockdown?

Correct if I'm wrong, but if the above example is correct (and one could bring a different one with Prestige Classes) why shouldn't be possible what you said about maneuvers? i guess the sage used the same logic.

Thespianus
2009-08-27, 03:12 PM
I have been given the opportunity to glance at ToB now, and (if I understand this correctly), the Barbarian would be able to go into Warblade at level 9, and
gain 3 Maneuvers Known, 3 Maneuvers Readied, 1 stance known.

The 3 Maneuvers known must be from Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw and WHite Raven disciplines, and these 3 maneuvers will be level 1.

Then, since the Barbarian will have an Initiator level of 1 + 8/2 = 5, she would be able to take the Martial Study feat and pick one Maneuver from level 3 from any of the disciplines? Or from one of the disciplines picked for her 3 maneuvers known?

So, it would be possible to get 2 maneuvers from the Stone Dragon discipline (it focuses on the Greatsword, so it might fit ok): Charging Minotaur(Strike), Stone Bones(Strike), and 1 maneuver from Iron Heart discipline: Steel Wind.

Also, she could take once Stance from Stone Dragon lvl 1: Stonefoot Stance

Then, with the martial study-feat at level 9, she could pick a level 3 maneuver, since her IL is 5 (1 + 8/2) : Iron Heart Surge or Bonecrusher, or something.

Does this sound correct? I'm sure it's terribly underpowered, but if I understand the rules correctly, it seems to be this way it works..or? :)

So, in a combat situation, she

Douglas
2009-08-27, 03:22 PM
Only the stance is required to be level 1. Both the three maneuvers from Warblade and the one from Martial Study can be up to level 3, provided prerequisites are satisfied.

The maneuver from Martial Study can be from any discipline, even ones that Warblade does not have access to. She could, for example, pick up Crusader's Strike from Devoted Spirit with the feat. Prerequisites do still apply, though, so learning higher level maneuvers from non-Warblade disciplines would be difficult because most of them have prerequisites.

Thespianus
2009-08-27, 03:38 PM
Only the stance is required to be level 1. Both the three maneuvers from Warblade and the one from Martial Study can be up to level 3, provided prerequisites are satisfied.

Ok, cool. I misread the Stances Known section and thought it also applied to Maneuvers Known.

Ok, so at level 9, she could pick one silly level 1 stance, Say "Blood in the Water" from Tiger discipline, and then 3 maneuvers of level 1-3 from the Warblade disciplines, and finally, from the Martial Study feat, she could take one more maneuver of level 1-3.

Or, she could take the Martial Stance feat and gain a level 3 stance?

Seems pretty cool, I gotta say. Lots of variation, at least. Shock Trooper still seems like a solid alternative, but it sucks to have to waste a feat on Improved Bull Rush.

Thespianus
2009-08-27, 03:48 PM
Ohhh.. If I read Iron Heart Surge right, you could use it to get out of a Frenzied Berserker's Frenzy?

Soooo.. Warblade for level 9, pick up Iron Heart Surge and a few other maneuvers, take Destructive Rage as the level 9 feat, and the Barbarian would be all set for the Frenzied Berserker PrC at level 10. :)

I generally dislike silly 1-level dipping, but that could be the one dip that makes Frenzied Berserker worth going into.

MichielHagen
2009-08-27, 04:00 PM
Maneuvers
There are some good low level maneuvers i will not mention, for example "Action before Thought" since i assume your Barbarian is not skilled in Concentration.

Mountain Hammer is one of the best low level Stone Dragon maneuvers (you can chop through walls and ignore DR from creatures), i am not a big fan of Stone Dragon other than that.

Iron Heart Surge is good, but might cause some discussion on what is possible.
Wall of Blades might prove nice, depending on how high the characters AC is.

White Raven has some nice abilities, but might be a lot less in flavor and less easy to use.

Stances
Punishing Stance is a nice 1st level maneuver in my opinion.
You might want to consider taking Martial Stance as a feat instead.
There are some nice level 3 stances, Absolute Steel Stance is one which might fit well.
If you take a level 3 stance as your main stance, I like the Hunter's Sense stance best as a 1st level stance, scent is an ability which usefullness is not to be underestimated and can be usefull out of combat.

<edit> ha, you seem to be getting a hang of it, you ninja-ed me on some parts :D

ColdSepp
2009-08-27, 04:10 PM
There is some debate about whether or not the stance has to be 1st level if you enter the martial class at a later level.

olentu
2009-08-27, 04:15 PM
Ohhh.. If I read Iron Heart Surge right, you could use it to get out of a Frenzied Berserker's Frenzy?

Soooo.. Warblade for level 9, pick up Iron Heart Surge and a few other maneuvers, take Destructive Rage as the level 9 feat, and the Barbarian would be all set for the Frenzied Berserker PrC at level 10. :)

I generally dislike silly 1-level dipping, but that could be the one dip that makes Frenzied Berserker worth going into.

Eh I would not call removing your frenzy to be attacking to the best of ones ability if I remember the wording correctly.

PId6
2009-08-27, 05:12 PM
I'm pretty sure the level 1 stance thing is just an oversight. The wording is "you begin play", so it's probably only intended for people starting out at 1st level. It seems fairly contrary to RAI.

lsfreak
2009-08-27, 05:44 PM
Right, stance may or may not have to be level 1; by RAW is seems like it needs to be. RAI seems otherwise, but most of us generally assume only level 1 stances. And I wouldn't discount 1st level stances so fast; Blood in the Water combined with a 15-20 falchion of 17-20 greatsword is nothing to laugh at, and Leading the Charge is great for a charger (especially if she's got pounce as well). In fact, I'd probably take one of those over a 3rd level stance as a charger.

Thespianus
2009-08-28, 12:03 AM
Eh I would not call removing your frenzy to be attacking to the best of ones ability if I remember the wording correctly.

You have a point, definitely. However, if we compare with a Charm Person effect instead, it seems like Iron Heart Surge would allow you to get rid of the Charm Person effect, even if she was busy attacking her party memebers at the best of her ability".

By RAW it's not a 100%, I agree. However, it would be nice to make the F.B at least somewhat useful, and Iron Heart Surge is the only way I've seen that comes close to working. Up to the DM, I guess.

Jastermereel
2009-08-28, 01:09 AM
It's also worth mentioning that the Tome of Battle is the basis for 4E, because ToB created the "per encounter" mechanic. Anywho, there are basically 4 different power models:

***

2) Recharge: You have X powers. You can use each power whenever you want, but after you use it, you have to recharge it through some mechanic. Examples: Psionic Focus, most breath weapons, Tome of Battle, a few prestige classes, and a lot of homebrew work.

3) Pool: You have a limited power pool which only refills once per day. You can fuel all (or most) of your class abilities using this one pool, but when it runs out, you're out of power. Examples: Bardic music, Psionics, Factotum, spell points, a lot of Pathfinder.

Factotum doesn't seem like a strict "Pool" power. Sure you get a pool of points, but it starts fresh encounter rather than in a daily way, no?

olentu
2009-08-28, 01:26 AM
You have a point, definitely. However, if we compare with a Charm Person effect instead, it seems like Iron Heart Surge would allow you to get rid of the Charm Person effect, even if she was busy attacking her party memebers at the best of her ability".

By RAW it's not a 100%, I agree. However, it would be nice to make the F.B at least somewhat useful, and Iron Heart Surge is the only way I've seen that comes close to working. Up to the DM, I guess.

Well I would only agree that removing a charm person effect would count as attacking someone to the best of ones ability if the charm person effect was hindering the attack in some way. If the charm person effect was neutral or beneficial to the attack then removing it would either be a waste of an action or removing a benefit and that does not seem like one is attacking to the the best of ones ability when one does that.

Though in the end I am fine with the frenzied berserker having the drawbacks that it does.

Thespianus
2009-08-28, 10:53 AM
Though in the end I am fine with the frenzied berserker having the drawbacks that it does.

Ok. So the "I walk into a trap so I frenzy and kill the whole party"-schtick seems reasonable? ;)

Each to his own. I think it's ok to lessen the Frenzy drawback somehow, but to each houseruler his own.

Stegyre
2009-08-28, 11:24 AM
I'm pretty sure the level 1 stance thing is just an oversight. The wording is "you begin play", so it's probably only intended for people starting out at 1st level. It seems fairly contrary to RAI.
I would disagree. There's a pretty consistent difference in the choice of language. Compare:

You begin your career with knowledge of three martial maneuvers.
with

You begin play with knowledge of one 1st-level stance . . .
That doesn't look like an oversight. Maneuvers are implicitly unlimited. The only RAW for their selection is the initiator level requirement, which may be high enough for advanced maneuvers by the time a multi-class character dips into one of the martial adept classes.

Stances, on the other hand, are explicitly limited to starting with "one 1st-level stance."

RAI is not to the contrary. While in some respects, stances are treated as if they were maneuvers (i.e., a stance may serve as the prerequisite "maneuver" in a discipline to qualify for a higher-level maneuver), many distinctions are observed. For example, while a character is allowed to retrain maneuvers, stances may never be retrained. This means that a martial adept will always have at least one 1-st level stance.

Thespianus
2009-08-28, 12:42 PM
It's the "you begin play"-bit that causes some to think there's an oversight involved, I believe.

A character who moves into Warblade at level 9 doesn't "begin play", so it seems the text is written without multiclassing in mind. A first level Warblade also "begin play" with a certain amount of starting gold, and you don't get those coins while taking the first level of Warblade (or any other class).

But I have no problem with adhering to that rule, even if it really don't make a whole lot of sense, given how ILs work elsewhere.

Thrawn183
2009-08-28, 06:21 PM
I think it's a good thing for balance really. It helps prevent one level dips from being too amazing.