PDA

View Full Version : question about things concerning characters.



Mystic Muse
2009-08-25, 11:09 PM
is Sandstorm 3.0 or 3.5? and if it's 3.0 is it compatible with 3.5 for the most part? or is it another edition altogether?

Roland St. Jude
2009-08-25, 11:13 PM
3.5 released two years after the 3.5 phb.

Seffbasilisk
2009-08-25, 11:16 PM
It's version 3.5.

UserClone
2009-08-25, 11:17 PM
It's fully 3.5; it came out long after 3.5 did. In point of fact, it was one of the last series of books out.

Mystic Muse
2009-08-25, 11:39 PM
thank you all.

Alcopop
2009-08-26, 12:29 AM
Good way of checking is too see what the publishing date is, post 2004 and late 2003 and your shiny, early 2003 gets a bit murky. Check the skills if your really unsure, if you see things like scry or pickpocket it's your probably in third edition territory.

Mystic Muse
2009-08-26, 12:42 AM
now one more question. there's this one homebrew guy I like the look of and am thinking of asking my GM to allow me to play. it's right here. http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Threat_(3.5e_Class)#Threat_Lore

I think this guy might be a bit overpowered is the thing and since I'm kind of new it may be so overpowered that asking my Gm would be an insult to them. what's the playground's opinion of this class?

sadi
2009-08-26, 01:19 AM
Double your str bonus in damage per day equal to twice your class level, not exactly game breaking, , the +1 fort +1 nat armor every other level too isn't game breaking either. The merciless ability of spend an extra mighty blow to do double damage, is even more overpowered than the other stuff. The other abilities that grant size category increases are not bad for one size increase, but when you start adding two, or three, or four then it is.

I'd probably allow it if I was running, but I'd cut the numbers in half on the str bonus and the fort/nat armor bonus. And probably spread the size category things out so that you don't get the +3 or +4, since +16 size bonus to trip/grapple seems a bit on the high side.

sonofzeal
2009-08-26, 01:35 AM
d12 HD, two good saves, 4+int skill points? That right there spell "oh hai guys look how hardcore my new class is omg" to me. I'd strike the Ref saves and lower them to 2+int.

Fear immunity in a one-level dip is questionable, but if you're not dipping that's not an issue.

Mighty Blow is powerful, but not crazy. As DM I'd rule that damage goes on after everything else, so it's not multiplied on a charge or crit, but otherwise it's fine.

Unnatural Force is crazy for grapple/trip builds though. I'd change it so it only works on defending against those things, which fits the flavour given a bit better.

Merciless is also kind of crazy, given the sheer number of Mighty Blows they have at this level. I'd replace this with letting him use two Mighty Blows on the same attack (so double your strength bonus as extra damage), but no more than two.

In exchange for those nerfs, I'd give them maybe some Fighter Bonus Feats (perhaps at 5, 10, 15, and 20), and let them qualify for Fighter-only feats as if they had a fighter level equal to their threat level -2, just like Warblades.

Everything else looks reasonable.

Mystic Muse
2009-08-26, 01:41 AM
any way to keep the skill points? the thing I hate about Paladins is the low amount of skill points. that and their evil code. I think 4th edition's take on the Paladin makes more sense.

sonofzeal
2009-08-26, 01:47 AM
any way to keep the skill points? the thing I hate about Paladins is the low amount of skill points. that and their evil code. I think 4th edition's take on the Paladin makes more sense.
Certainly you can keep the skillpoints, if your DM doesn't rag on them. But ask yourself - what, exactly, about a Threat, would imply they have more skillpoints than normal? How is that a part of their shtick? Why should they get more skillpoints than Fighters?

Mystic Muse
2009-08-26, 01:55 AM
because they're bigger threats.:smallwink:

I don't know why they would.

sonofzeal
2009-08-26, 02:08 AM
because they're bigger threats.:smallwink:

I don't know why they would.
And thus you were enlightened. ;)

Seriously though, there's a good argument to be made that everyone should have more skill points. I play with it off and on as a houserule for my games, giving everyone the human skillpoint boost (and doubling it for humans).

Threats have plenty to contribute without skillpoints. They have some nice immunities, and can probably pull their weight well. They favour a balanced combat style, would make excellent Shock Troopers. They would also make really awesome NPCs, as they're able to dish out respectable but not ludicrous damage, are able to resist (via Unnatural Force and immunities) a lot the PCs can throw out, and are generally tough and durable and easy to run. I'll definitely consider using them in a campaign I run.

Myrmex
2009-08-26, 02:25 AM
d12 HD, two good saves, 4+int skill points? That right there spell "oh hai guys look how hardcore my new class is omg" to me. I'd strike the Ref saves and lower them to 2+int.

But without maneuvers, it's like a warblade.


Fear immunity in a one-level dip is questionable, but if you're not dipping that's not an issue.

Definitely an issue.


Mighty Blow is powerful, but not crazy. As DM I'd rule that damage goes on after everything else, so it's not multiplied on a charge or crit, but otherwise it's fine.

It's fine with a multiplier on a crit or charge. Compare it to maneuvers that can be used all day long, not just a few times/day, and have better damage scaling than your str mod.


Unnatural Force is crazy for grapple/trip builds though. I'd change it so it only works on defending against those things, which fits the flavour given a bit better.

Agreed. It gets absurdly powerful.


Merciless is also kind of crazy, given the sheer number of Mighty Blows they have at this level. I'd replace this with letting him use two Mighty Blows on the same attack (so double your strength bonus as extra damage), but no more than two.

That would be much more reasonable. Doubling damage is usually a risky proposition, as it encourages the DM to engage in rocket tag with you.

TK-Squared
2009-08-26, 06:25 AM
Firstly, if you want to keep up to date with any author edits made to the Threat, watch here (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Threat_(3.5e_Class)) instead (this is due to migration from D&D Wiki of quite a few of it's users that I won't get into).

To address points, I must stress that I am not Rithaniel in anyway and if you want to get his opinion on this, you can use the Discussion page of the wiki or I can direct him here to discuss it with you. My points here are of my own opinion and do not reflect Rithaniel's in any known way.

Rithaniel is of the school of thought that "Fighter's Should Get Nice Things" and this is based off the idea of the Same Game Test (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/The_Same_Game_Test_(3.5e_Guideline)) (Any one class should be able to defeat an equal CR 50% of the time). This means that his classes may seem overpowered if you are going to compare them to the "core" melee classes, like Fighter, Monk or Ranger and it may appear to have powerful abilities.

On the subject of Saves, HD and Skill Points. As Myrmex points out below; a Warblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2) gets this too. If you wish, you can look to core and a Barbarian (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Barbarian) nearly gets this, he just misses out on a save (which is quite unfortunate really). Is this to say the Warblade is also "hardcore", in such a way you note it? No; low skill points should be for casters, people who don't need the skills apart from Concentration and Spellcraft. The d12 HD is because it's meant to be able to actually take damage and the saves are decent enough.

The fear immunity at level one is slightly off, I suppose; it does make the class abit of a one-level dip just for fear immunity. But, the class is designed to be "preoptimized", in similar vein to Tome classes. You're not expected to go around dipping, it's a sort of gentlemen's agreement, one supposes. I'm not endorsing it, I would have been fine to change it to a static +x to fear saves and then give immunity later on (although this would have problems of "muscling in" on other abilities). But, in retrospect; Fear Immunity is... a low level ability that's far overshadowed at later levels. You could argue, yes, it is very good at low levels, but so is, say, Colour Spray.

Yes, that's right. I brought spells into it. I am not actively going to do a side-by-side comparison to a Wizard or any other full caster, I'm just noting that there are other things more powerful than it. As I noted; I don't like it, but I can see why it's there.

Mighty Blow is there to allow the Threat to actually do damage, without turning himself into a bland and boring "i charge in with shock trooper combat brute leap attack".

Unnatural Force. If you're going to be good at stopping people from attacking, you might as well actually be GOOD at it. Without these, there's going to be, essentially, nothing stopping a creature of Size x (where x is probably about two sizes or more than the Threat) from just strolling past the Threat in a nonchalant manner. The ability is similar to Powerful Build, but split into two with Titanic Strength. But, this is the class' entire stick. It's meant to have abilities that mean it's actually a credible threat; the class is a combat option class. Which, unfortunately with hindsight, does lend it to being a one-trick pony (just a different one) in some regard.

But, what's it going to do against a creature that can fly? Or a creature that can't be tripped, if focusing on tripping. You eventually get to +four size categories and that's at level 20. Is this really all that bad? It's level 20 and for it; you get a +16 size modifier to combat options.

Nothing wrong with Numb, to be honest, if anyone mentioned it. Attacks scale faster then AC anyway and the class was, most likely, made in mind of the Book of Gears (from Frank & Keith) rule that only half your Natural Armor counts while wearing armour. It's the idea that... You can be awesome without wearing full plate and wielding a tower shield, I suppose.

So, in conclusion; yes, the class could be seen as slightly powerful. It can be seen as very powerful if you compare it to core melee classes, but; really? Of course analogy x is going to look good compared to analogy y because analogy y is pretty naff in total; not just in comparison to analogy x.

blah blah blah tl;dr; I disagree, but talking with the original creator will allow you to get his views on the matter to. He is a reasonable person and is open for suggestions.

- TK.

sadi
2009-08-26, 04:54 PM
It all depends on how the merciless is calculated, using a long sword is it 2d8 + str x 2 + any power attack, or is it (1d8+ str + str +power attack) x 2.


The difference is about 20 damage using power attack, and much higher if you're using a 2 handed weapon to power attack. Assuming its' the latter with power attack 10, a 2 handed great sword and a 24 str, 14 ( for huge greatsword , extra 7 if you have an enlarge on to make it gargantuan) +24 for 2handed weapon str x 2 + 20 for power attack x 2 118 dmg per hit 20 times per day without a magical weapon without actually critting. I've never had a high level fighter, but I'm guessing ~500 dmg with a magic weapon per round and the ability to do that 5 rounds in a row might be considered overpowered if you're not just doubling weapon damage, but giving free criticals.

Prime32
2009-08-26, 05:09 PM
any way to keep the skill points? the thing I hate about Paladins is the low amount of skill points. that and their evil code. I think 4th edition's take on the Paladin makes more sense.
I have a fix which might interest you (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3053.msg94897#msg94897).

Demons_eye
2009-08-26, 05:25 PM
That thread looks cool till I got to the monk.....

Prime32
2009-08-26, 05:38 PM
That thread looks cool till I got to the monk.....Well, that one's not so much a fix as it is a class which can fit the monk's role.

Eldariel
2009-08-26, 05:42 PM
Well, that one's not so much a fix as it is a class which can fit the monk's role.

Monks have a role?

Prime32
2009-08-26, 05:44 PM
Monks have a role?...it also has X-ray vision.

sadi
2009-08-26, 06:04 PM
Monks have a role?

To suck? It is an important role in every party, and someone needs to do it.

Myrmex
2009-08-27, 07:07 PM
]Rithaniel is of the school of thought that "Fighter's Should Get Nice Things" and this is based off the idea of the Same Game Test (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/The_Same_Game_Test_(3.5e_Guideline)) (Any one class should be able to defeat an equal CR 50% of the time). This means that his classes may seem overpowered if you are going to compare them to the "core" melee classes, like Fighter, Monk or Ranger and it may appear to have powerful abilities.

I feel that abilities that greatly increase damage output aren't really "nice things", since any full BAB class, the PHB, and Complete Warrior can do plenty of damage. That's all fighter, barbarian, and rogue have going for them in the combat department- damage, lots of damage. Doing lots of damage also has the problem of forcing the DM to start playing rocketlauncher tag with you.

"Nice things" would be abilities that increase mobility, decrease the efficacy of battlefield control effects, remove enemy defenses, control enemy movement & actions, and better defenses vs. effects that essentially destroy a character (death effects, drains, dominate, curses, etc). The wizard isn't good because it can do lots of damage, it's good because solid fog & glitterdust shut down 70% of encounters between levels 3 and 10.

Making your fighter more fightery, or putting a barbarian in your barbarian, isn't going to do much to make what the fighter has going for it any nicer. Instead, you'll simply face more enemies that will stay away from your massive, one-hit-kill strategy, and you will be forced to just... hang out.

Mystic Muse
2009-08-27, 07:10 PM
okay then. is there some homebrew class that does something along the lines of what myrmex is saying?

Myrmex
2009-08-27, 07:26 PM
okay then. is there some homebrew class that does something along the lines of what myrmex is saying?

Yes.
Tome of Battle offers 3 melee warriors who use a reflavored magic system.

Here is a fighter fix that I like:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30692

Here is an extensive investigation of what it means to hit people with weapons in D&D, from the people who brought you the Tome series:

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19527458/Races_of_War

It's ambitious, and most of those classes are tier 2 or potentially tier 1, if I recall correctly. They gain lots of immunities to a lot of effects.

Rithaniel
2009-08-27, 11:50 PM
Well hello everybody, I am Rithaniel.

I would have never thought that one of my classes would gain this much attention, but apparently it has.

First off, sonofzeal, never insult someone unless you know their true intentions, it makes you look stupid (which I am fully confident that you are not), and is just generally bad form.

Secondly, I aim for a balance point that is on par with rogues, and sometimes slightly into the cleric area. Just to get a few points hammered out, Fighters and Monks both suck and should not be considered a viable balance point for anything, the bare minimum skill points a melee class should have is (4+Int) (considering that melee classes have an actual need for skills, and can't simply start flying away), and Wizard is more powerful than Cleric, which is more powerful than Rogue (and Frank & K (the writers of the Races of War), balanced their classes to be on par with Wizards).

Now then, into actual talks about the balance of the class in question. Lets take a look at it. There have been a few comments on this class and comparing it to the "combat brute/shock trooper/leap attack/spinning kick/smiley face/arachnaphobia/eclipse dancer/garados hit by thundershock/epic belch/what-fvcking-ever else there is to add to this mutant" combo. My only reply to these comments is that you shouldn't have to burn half a million feats just to do something halfway effective. In fact, classes should be like the Rogue, where it's difficult to make a bad one, regardless of what choices you take. A class should never have to require taking exactly this feat, that feat, and the other feat in order to have a chance.

Okay, point by point, Unnatural Force is intended the way that is it so that you aren't simply trumped by something cause it's larger than you. A Remoraz comes along, well, too bad for you, unless you're huge, you might as well consider yourself swallowed and out of comabt, cry me a river. Fearless, well, what the big deal? It's not like I gave away Mind Blank at first level. Mighty Blow was this classes source of damage, and no one seems to have a problem with it, so moving on. Numb, well, honestly, this was intended with the same philosophy of Unnatural Force, it evens the playing field, and makes it so that your enemies (on average) won't be able to hit you any better than they did at first level. Titanic Strength, congratulations, you have done something you would want to do anyways, you have increased the damage of your weapon, you may have a cookie. But seriously, to take a closer look at that ability, you'll see that you're only dealing a bit extra damage, perhaps the difference between 2d6 and 3d6, which isn't much. When it gets upgraded to the next teir, you are competing with Rogues who are getting 2d8+7d6 to every single attack as they run around naked and invisible, getting to deal 4d6 (or possibly 6d6, if you've increased your size) doesn't seem so fantastic now, does it? Merciless, thats the power punch that makes me call this one more into the 'cleric' range of power. Okay, doubling damage is a big deal, I don't deny that, but lets look at the possibilities:


Cleric casts Slay Living against person X, save or die.

Rogue hits with a +5d6 sneak attack with two longwords (TWF) against person X (str: 16), dealing 2d8+10d6+4 damage (averages 48 damage), that might kill em, but you can't know for sure though.

Threat makes a Merciless Mighty Blow against person X with a greatsword (str: 22), dealing (3d6+15)x2 (averages to 51 damage), that might kill em, but you can't know for sure though.

From that little picture, this class is probably better than a Rogue at level 9, yet obviously worse than a Cleric at level 9. This is acceptable balance in all but the most stingy of games.

Okay, I think I've made my case, and, as one final note to Kyuubi, don't shrug off something simply because person X told you that it wasn't good, cause, for all you know, they could be wrong.

Also, thank you all for the interest in my work, I feel flattered.

Mystic Muse
2009-08-28, 12:45 AM
last question. what race would work well with this class? preferably no LA and definitely nothing past LA+1

sadi
2009-08-28, 12:52 AM
If you're using a 2 handed weapon, you're power attacking at a 4-1 ratio. Which means a power attack of 5 is giving you the same chance to hit as a rogue, and now you do 50% more dmg comparing 1 hit vs 2.

edit, Anything that gives + to str, the way i see it designed is tripping power attacker. I'd say play a half-orc, but no one would take me seriously.

Mystic Muse
2009-08-28, 01:08 AM
not a big fan of half orcs and -2 to INT and CHA doesn't really appeal to ms.

any race that's low to no LA and has resistances to Magic?

Doc Roc
2009-08-28, 01:22 AM
If what zeal said to you registers as an insult around here, I'm not sure I should stick around, really :: laughing :: because you all cleaaaaaaaaarly hate me. :: grins :: Son Of Zeal is one of the people in the CharOp community who has my unreserved respect.

I like bariur. Good stats, great fluff, solid SR, quadruped which is useful for a few builds.

Myrmex
2009-08-28, 01:34 AM
Rithaniel-
Upping damage output only balances classes to a certain point. A rogue is balanced by the relative limitations on when it can put out damage. Fortification armor enhancements, or crit immune monsters, or monsters that can't be flanked, or can see invisibility all stymie a rogue's ability to sneak attack. The rogue is also heavily dependent on full attacks. A rogue is more of a one trick pony, when it comes to combat, than your average tripping-charger build (unless it uses UMD, but even a monk can use UMD). A rogue is handy outside of combat, unlike a fighter.

However, the fact that either of these classes can put out astronomical damage doesn't save them from being rather underwhelming. They are heavily gear dependent, since they lack any cool, innate abilities.

Even if you doubled both their damage outputs, they still wouldn't be much better than what they already are. Typically when I play, casters don't bother much with doing damage themselves- they simply create opportunities for rogues & fighters to do damage. It is the lack of ability to create opportunities that makes fighter & rogue weak classes.

Your class does little to help with creating opportunities. Fear immunity is helpful, DR & natural AC help it in its front line role. But that's as far as it goes. Being able to outgrapple or trip everything is pretty spectacular, but is really just pre-picking feats & classes that would have gone into making a tripper, anyway. You could, as far as this class feature goes, get almost as much mileage out of psiwarrior and large/powerful build race.

I'm just underwhelmed, that's all. You clearly want to give out nice things, but you give them out in the wrong places.

Myrmex
2009-08-28, 01:35 AM
not a big fan of half orcs and -2 to INT and CHA doesn't really appeal to ms.

any race that's low to no LA and has resistances to Magic?

You could try goliath. One of the few LA +1 races that are considered worth it. +4 str, -2 dex, +2 con, -a mental stat (can't remember which ones), and powerful build.

Rithaniel
2009-08-28, 01:39 AM
(Yeah, anything that would get a bonus to str, if your DM would allow it though, here's a link to a race that TK made: Ortal (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/The_Ortal_(3.5e_Race)#Racial_Traits). An extremely good race in my opinion, though, quite a large article)

Okay, at level 9, acceptable starting gold is 36,000. This is easily enough for the Rogue to buy a Wand of Divine Power, which makes you on par with the Threat for attack bonus. A Threat will have a belt of strength +6 though, so he is a bit ahead in damage and to-hit ratio, but not much.

Myrmex
2009-08-28, 01:41 AM
Okay, at level 9, acceptable starting gold is 36,000. This is easily enough for the Rogue to buy a Wand of Divine Power, which makes you on par with the Threat for attack bonus. A Threat will have a belt of strength +6 though, so he is a bit ahead in damage and to-hit ratio, but not much.

I prefer wands of wraithstrike. Much cheaper, and waaaaaay better.

Regardless, sinking all your wealth into a single trick seems a bit silly, imo.

Doc Roc
2009-08-28, 01:41 AM
Wands should not be your long-term solution to permanent problems.

I do no think I would let the Ortal into my game. Never let social skills run off the most easily jacked ability in the entire game, among other things.

Myrmex
2009-08-28, 01:45 AM
Wands should not be your long-term solution to permanent problems.

Unless they're cheap wands. There are 266 encounters between levels 1 & 20. If you use two charges of a level 2 wand per encounter, then you only need 11 wands, or about 50,000 gold, invested, over 20 levels. That's the equivalent of a +5 sword, which is a pretty fair staple of fighter's inventory.

Doc Roc
2009-08-28, 01:49 AM
I agree that wands of first or even second level spells can be an excellent choice. I flinch when someone starts suggesting higher leveled wands.

Myrmex
2009-08-28, 01:54 AM
I agree that wands of first or even second level spells can be an excellent choice. I flinch when someone starts suggesting higher leveled wands.

I got you. "You can make up for X deficiency by spending all your gold on this item" is kinda meh.

sonofzeal
2009-08-28, 01:56 AM
First off, sonofzeal, never insult someone unless you know their true intentions, it makes you look stupid (which I am fully confident that you are not), and is just generally bad form.
I apologize, and the comment was meant in jest rather than a serious portrayal of my opinion of you. I do generally consider it a bad sign when classes start with all sorts of fixing like that, but that's all I meant.

(and to those who commented - not even a warblade gets d12 + 4+int + two good saves)

I do understand the intent behind Unnatural Force, and it's a good idea, but the implementation is off. As it stands, a high level Threat gets a ridiculously massive bonus when tripping or grappling other people. I'm entirely in favour of them being able to stand up to big things that try that against you, but when you end up being the "big thing" who gets away with that against everyone else, well that's just not fun. Making it a purely defensive ability, as I suggested, allows you to resist that mighty Remoraz, without practically becoming one yourself.


I think your optimization of Merciless is a little off. For example, a rogue shouldn't be using longswords (need a light weapon in the off-hand, and they're not proficient anyway) but should be swinging at least three times, if not more. That brings you up to 18d6+9, for 72 damage, assuming all hit... which in most situations is unlikely, but we'll leave the 72 as a nice benchmark, with the implicit understanding that he won't actually be doing 72 damage in most rounds.

Okay, so the Threat uses his Merciless ability. By this level he should have Power Attack and at least one method of delivering it well (Shock Trooper, True Strike, Emerald Razor, Impaling Weapon, Wraithstrike, or any of the half a dozen other ways to get a Touch Attack). Let's go with the Touch Attack, because that's the easiest and most common. Average AC at this level is about 21, average touch AC is about 9, so he can well-afford to fully power attack without sacrificing any accuracy over the Rogue (who's starting to really feel his 3/4 BAB anyway). Let's use your numbers, so 22 strength.... that makes it (3d6+17+20)x2, or 91 damage, and he still probably has another attack coming. Let's call that one just a regular attack, so (3d6+11) gives 19.5, for a total of 110.5 damage, given reasonable baseline assumptions about how a reasonably experienced player would use the class. If you're optimizing it, well, throw in Leap Attack and a bunch of strength boosters (since every point of strength mod gives you +1 attack and +5 damage), pouncing charge, actual gear like a magic sword, whatever. Since damage is multiplied, ever little bit starts suddenly counting a whole lot more and the result becomes just that much easier to twink out.

But let's go with those two only-slightly-optimized examples. From the Rogue, 72 damage that he has to set up very carefully, that mostly isn't multiplied on a critical, and is almost entirely resisted by a whole bunch of things. From the Threat, 110.5 damage that he can get pretty darn easily, that's all multiplied on a crit, and that works against anything he can get his sword into. The Threat also has a far easier time boosting that damage further.

Oh, and yes I did notice that 10 is actually a low point for threats, since they gain a whole new attack at 11.



I like the concept, I really do, and I'm sorry I was a little bit snarky earlier (and I assure you it wasn't anything personal). I do disagree with your analysis on Unnatural Force and Merciless though, and think both abilities need to be seriously toned down and supplemented with other things that are a bit more reasonable. Feats are always good to expand the flexibility of the class, DR seems to fit this concept really well, a weak SR (5+CL or so) would make them more effective at mid/high levels, and I'd love to see them with an ability to force enemies to attack them. As I said later down my post, I consider this class as excellent NPC material for the cinematic quality, the ability to make the PCs actually work to beat it, and the ability to do solid but reasonable damage at most levels (at least without Merciless doubling everything).

Myrmex
2009-08-28, 02:01 AM
(and to those who commented - not even a warblade gets d12 + 4+int + two good saves)

But they DO get maneuvers, which make up for your deficiencies. The Threat, however, doesn't get much to make up for his deficiencies. You can get fairly decent damage out of an NPC warrior & his full BAB, for instance. Damage isn't really a deficiency of things with full BAB. For this reason, two good saves, 4+int skills, and a d12 HD seems reasonable to me.

That's what I meant by comparing it to the barbarian and warblade.

Rithaniel
2009-08-28, 02:09 AM
Okay, you guys post extremely fast, I mean, while I was typing this post alone, there were posts from Mymrex, Tidesinger, Mymrex, Son of Zeal, and Mymrex.

Well, what I said still holds true, this guy isn't as good as a core caster, who, at these levels, can force people to make saves versus death, which is better than any ammount of damage. Now then, I have another class I'm working on, I shall see about popping in here again tomorrow.

Thanks for the advice btw, it is really appreciated, but, if you guys are recommending the Races of War to someone, then I can't see how you can think this class is overpowered.

Also, thank you Son of Zeal, and it's not really a problem (I can see people look up to you around here btw). I shall return later and see about furthering any arguements here. Trust me, I know what I make.

sonofzeal
2009-08-28, 02:09 AM
But they DO get maneuvers, which make up for your deficiencies. The Threat, however, doesn't get much to make up for his deficiencies. You can get fairly decent damage out of an NPC warrior & his full BAB, for instance. Damage isn't really a deficiency of things with full BAB. For this reason, two good saves, 4+int skills, and a d12 HD seems reasonable to me.

That's what I meant by comparing it to the barbarian and warblade.
I know, and I didn't really harp on it for the balance concideration part of my post. I don't think it's seriously unbalancing, but for a homebrew class I'd still generally see it as a bad sign. Whether or not that initial pessimism was justified, I've talked about enough. I do think it needs some significant tweaks, but the core idea is compelling and entirely workable.

Seffbasilisk
2009-08-28, 02:31 AM
Wouldn't this fit better in the homebrew section?

Mystic Muse
2009-08-28, 11:17 AM
I changed the title of the thread and my original post. now it fits here.

Another_Poet
2009-08-28, 11:26 AM
now one more question. there's this one homebrew guy I like the look of and am thinking of asking my GM to allow me to play. it's right here. http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Threat_(3.5e_Class)#Threat_Lore

I think this guy might be a bit overpowered is the thing and since I'm kind of new it may be so overpowered that asking my Gm would be an insult to them. what's the playground's opinion of this class?

It seems like a fine class to me. Might actually balance well with casters (okay, at least sorcerers :smalltongue: ) at higher levels. If I were your GM I would allow it. Also if I were your GM, I would give the Fighter 4+int skill points rather than knocking the Threat down to 2+Int.

But them, I am one wild and crazy guy. :)

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-28, 11:58 AM
If what zeal said to you registers as an insult around here, I'm not sure I should stick around, really :: laughing :: because you all cleaaaaaaaaarly hate me. :: grins :: Son Of Zeal is one of the people in the CharOp community who has my unreserved respect.

You are unloved.

Mystic Muse
2009-08-28, 11:30 PM
would somebody please mention some race of some sort with low to no LA that has some resistance or immunity to damage dealing/ death/ mind affecting forms of magic? (one of those not necesarrily all three.)

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-28, 11:36 PM
would somebody please mention some race of some sort with low to no LA that has some resistance or immunity to damage dealing/ death/ mind affecting forms of magic? (one of those not necesarrily all three.)Warforged with levels of Warforged Juggernaught(ECS). Gets you immunity to Death effects and mind-affecting, and the class isn't half-bad either for a meleer.

olentu
2009-08-29, 12:24 AM
would somebody please mention some race of some sort with low to no LA that has some resistance or immunity to damage dealing/ death/ mind affecting forms of magic? (one of those not necesarrily all three.)

I suppose one could be a necropolitan though without some tricks the loss of a con score could be rather detrimental.