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View Full Version : [3.5] Reasonable? ToB and switching disciplines



Greymane
2009-08-26, 07:02 AM
Something my group has often done, in the spirit of better fitting each character that we make, is have the option of trading one discipline in the Tome of Battle, for another.

As an example, there is a Half-drow Crusader in one of our groups, that barred White Raven for access to Shadow Hand. He's not very much of a leader, and doesn't fight very well alongside others, was the fluff reasoning behind this.

The question I pose, is this: Is it reasonable? Should it cost a feat? Or is it just fine?

Saph
2009-08-26, 07:08 AM
It's probably OK. Note that some ToB schools are notably more powerful than the others. Devoted Spirit is generally stronger than Stone Dragon, for instance. Shadow Hand and White Raven are about on par, so in this case it's not a big power gain.

The only issue is that it cuts into character uniqueness a bit, as normally each class has a special school or three that no-one else gets - only Warblades get Iron Heart, only Crusaders get Devoted Spirit, only Swordsages get Setting Sun / Shadow Hand / Desert Wind.

Kaiyanwang
2009-08-26, 07:33 AM
The only issue is that it cuts into character uniqueness a bit, as normally each class has a special school or three that no-one else gets - only Warblades get Iron Heart, only Crusaders get Devoted Spirit, only Swordsages get Setting Sun / Shadow Hand / Desert Wind.

Agree with this, even on a flavour base.

Shadow hand example: shadow hand has maneuvers working like levitate and dimensional door (so, great mobility). Make an easy access to a crusader, very different from the "lighter" Swordsage, should be carefully considered.

Said this, porbably with martial study or multiclass you can reach a similar result anyway, so, as long as improves your game, can be done (you allow anyway this if another scholl is barred).

Could be interesting built the fluff of this variant, I guess, expecially from the religious (in game!) point of view.

CockroachTeaParty
2009-08-26, 08:23 AM
I don't think it would be that big a deal. The Ruby Knight Vindicator prestige class is designed for Crusaders, and they get access to Shadow Hand, if I'm not mistaken.

Really, Stone Dragon begins to frustrate me, especially if you consider different settings for a game. Want to use it on a boat? An airship? In a city made out of trees? Nope. If you have a player or character who relies on Stone Dragon, they are limited to land / dungeons. Is there a balance issue with Stone Dragon? It's not any more powerful than the other schools... some might even say it's one of the least powerful. So it's flavor then? What would happen if the 'you must be touching the ground' bit was waived?

Kaiyanwang
2009-08-26, 09:50 AM
I don't think it would be that big a deal. The Ruby Knight Vindicator prestige class is designed for Crusaders, and they get access to Shadow Hand, if I'm not mistaken.


Good point. Is a prestige class (and so not automatically available in every campaing) but you are right.

And in the case of RKV, I see that mabe SH is there for fluff, or is at least one of the reasons. At the end, they are knight of a dark (even if not evil) goddess..

Person_Man
2009-08-26, 09:51 AM
I don't think it's an issue, as long as it's constant with the character's fluff and they're not using it to minmax. For example, I could see making the Swordsage leader of a ninja cult Shadow Hand, Devoted Spirit, and White Raven. You'd just have to bar most of the other schools to balance it out.

woodenbandman
2009-08-26, 09:51 AM
The only issue is that it cuts into character uniqueness a bit, as normally each class has a special school or three that no-one else gets - only Warblades get Iron Heart, only Crusaders get Devoted Spirit, only Swordsages get Setting Sun / Shadow Hand / Desert Wind.

Disagree. Character uniqueness is just that: Uniqueness of characters. I let people swap disciplines, so long as they give up something approximately equal. You can't swap Desert Wind for White Raven. Generally, if they want to trade down, it's fine. White Raven can be swapped for anything, Devoted Spirit is fair trade for Diamond Mind, Diamond Mind is fair trade for almost anything, Setting Sun is also a good bargaining chip. Maybe even allow a 2 for 1 trade.

I let a warblade in my game swap White Raven for Devoted Spirit so that he could have Tiger Claw and Devoted Spirit to perform the odd duties of "Using 2 katanas and healing." His character is entirely unique from the Jump focused AoO whore and the 2HW Fullblade Wielder. So different it's like comparing different classes, almost.

That reminds me, Desert Wind needs a little boost. I think i'll do something about that eventually.
EDIT: I DM and I don't even bring up a restriction so silly as "must be on the ground." What better way to prove your devotion to stone than to do without it? If you can survive without stone, doesn't that make you more stone-like?

lsfreak
2009-08-26, 11:26 AM
I think it's perfectly acceptable. I go into homebrewed disciplines as well for some enemies I build just to make them a bit more unique; I've got a ghast/crusader that dropped Devoted Spirit in order to pick up an undead-themed one, I have swordsages dropping Stone Dragon and Setting Sun in order to get an assassination-themed discipline, and so on. I also let Desert Wind to change into Tundra Wind.

As said, just make sure they're equal. Nothing should be dropping Stone Dragon unless they're dropping another one as well, and probably the same with Desert Wind. Grabbing Devoted Spirit or White Raven should cost someone something.

Zaq
2009-08-26, 11:40 AM
I think it's acceptable for a Crusader to drop WR or DS for something nice, but I don't really think the other two classes need it. It's all too easy to just ignore one or more of the disciplines as a swordsage anyway, so they're not really giving much up... I basically just have a hard time placing Desert Wind on the same power level as Iron Heart or Devoted Spirit. A swordsage would gain a lot by banning DW and gaining IH or DS. Likewise, of course Stone Dragon really shouldn't be a viable option to ban, since it's 1) weak and 2) universal.

Maybe I could be convinced otherwise. Most of this is my gut speaking, and my gut's only fair-to-middlin' when it comes to game balance. In a nutshell, though, I'd allow a Crusader to swap Devoted Spirit or White Raven, but I would have to take a long hard look at any other swaps before allowing them.

Greymane
2009-08-26, 12:58 PM
Wow, thanks for the input guys. So far, I've always agreed that swapping out disciplines helped to make characters more unique. It's not exactly a virulent practice (some of my players prefer Fighter still for some mind-boggling reason) among my group, but it does happen on occasion.

Though, I never really thought of any of the disciplines as better then another. Except maybe Desert Wind being on the weak end. Assuming swapping was a common practice, what would everyone think about how many disciplines another discipline might be worth? It sounds like Desert Wind might be worth only half, while something like Setting Sun would amost be worth two.

Thoughts?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-26, 01:42 PM
Devoted Spirit and Iron Heart are the top, most of the others are pretty close, and Desert Wind and Stone Dragon are the bottom.

Boci
2009-08-26, 02:00 PM
Devoted Spirit and Iron Heart are the top, most of the others are pretty close, and Desert Wind and Stone Dragon are the bottom.

Isn't it diamon mind, iron heart and devoted spirit, in that order?

Draz74
2009-08-26, 02:18 PM
IMHO (higher numbers are better):


Desert Wind - 5*
Stone Dragon - 5**
Setting Sun - 6.9
Tiger Claw - 7
Shadow Hand - 7
White Raven - 7***
Iron Heart - 7.1
Devoted Spirit - 7.5
Diamond Mind - 8


* Desert Wind jumps to a score of 7 if you can get around the fire resistance issue, e.g. if a homebrew feat lets you do Sonic damage instead of fire damage.

** Stone Dragon jumps to a full score of 7 if you ignore the stupid restriction about being in contact with the earth while using it.

*** White Raven jumps to a score of 8.5 in a melee-heavy party.

quick_comment
2009-08-26, 02:50 PM
No way tiger claw and shadow hand are equal. Tiger claw gets dancing and raging mongoose, sudden leap, swooping dragon strike and feral death blow, blood in the water, and so on.

Boci
2009-08-26, 03:20 PM
No way tiger claw and shadow hand are equal. Tiger claw gets dancing and raging mongoose, sudden leap, swooping dragon strike and feral death blow, blood in the water, and so on.

I dunno. If your character is built around hiding and striking, shadow hand gives you the chance to attack without losing your hiding position, paralyze a target, replicate enervate and teleport as aswift action. Thats pretty good. Not as much raw power as tiger claw, but then thats not the only way...

MichielHagen
2009-08-26, 03:53 PM
I would put the Shadow Hand feats into the scale as well, to even up the score. Shadow Blade is essential for a lot of builds.

Boci
2009-08-26, 03:55 PM
I would put the Shadow Hand feats into the scale as well, to even up the score. Shadow Blade is essential for a lot of builds.

Good point. Gloom razor is also pretty good. Reaping talons on the other hand...

Draz74
2009-08-26, 03:58 PM
No way tiger claw and shadow hand are equal. Tiger claw gets dancing and raging mongoose, sudden leap, swooping dragon strike and feral death blow, blood in the water, and so on.

Shadow Hand gets Enervating Shadow Strike, Balance on the Sky, Shadow Blink, Assassin's Stance, Child of Shadow, Island of Blades, and so on. What's your point?

And I'll take Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike over Feral Death Blow anytime. (In terms of mechanical power. Style-wise, it depends on the character.)

Edit: Yeah, Gloom Razor is definitely part of the balance too.

lsfreak
2009-08-26, 04:18 PM
Shadow Hand also gets fun tricks when you also dip 4 levels in Shadowlord. Like getting three full attacks a round every other round. But then again, Raging Mongoose and an ubercharger is pretty nasty...