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DragoonWraith
2009-08-26, 09:21 PM
So for the past day or so, I've been working on this (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Puppet_Master), a specialist wizard a la Beguiler or Warmage: the Puppet Master.

The Puppet Master uses primarily summons and buffs, namely summoning minions and then buffing them. He also uses a doll as a weapon - the semi-automated doll can move about and do his attacking for him, but does not get turns of its own.

I think I went overboard on the doll. The rules around it are fairly involved, though I don't think they're particularly complicated, they just need a lot of text to explain everything. Which is a problem, because I'm quite skeptical about its balance - I want them to be worth both the investment to create them, and the actions required to use them, but I also don't want to replicate the druid (in the sense that I don't want the doll to replace a Fighter or some such). So if anyone is willing to read through the whole thing, I'd appreciate input on them. I've never attempted to balance a 'monster' before, and I'm somewhat unfamiliar with high-level play, making it very difficult to balance the high-level versions. I've also never done much crafting, so I don't know how reasonable the crafting rules are (or aren't). Certainly the huge ones take forever, though I kind of like that...

Anyway, otherwise, I'd love input on the spell list. I went through the PHB and SpC, but that's it. And I don't really know which buffs are the best arcane buffs for this kind of character. So comments and suggestions for that would be great, also.

The rest of it is pretty basic, so I don't think any of that should need too much comment, though feel free to leave one if you have one!

Mulletmanalive
2009-08-27, 11:49 AM
I'll agree with slightly overboard...

Having just checked it, if you're going to give the doll it's own attack progression, why is the Dollmaster a better fighter than a warmage, despite it not being necessary to your stated concept. It would only make sense if the doll used their BAB.

I'd suggest taking a look at the Ranger Animal Handler chain from 4th edition for a possible way of handling this.

Give descriptions for individual actions like 'move attack return' and 'move, deliver touch, return' and 'get up and come back here you lazy hunk of wood' and list them as part of the class feature.

Beyond that you just need hit points and damage reduction. I wouldn't even go so far as to stat it up with anything but a strength score as the thing is piloted by the character so it's dex is already kind of set.

The Iron/mithril bit was a little bit unclear. I suggest tabulating it and maybe just setting certain defaults.

Though i'm sure you aren't intending to use actual strings, denying them grapple would be sensible both to simplify them and to avoid the usual grapple thing. Again, this goes away if the doll is capable of only set actions.

Finally, the summoning elements and enhanced spellcasting compared to a sorcerer would have been enough without the doll. As it is, the class is comfortably as powerful as most gestalt combinations i can imagine, if not more so.

The BAB and the doll on their own would make one character about on par with a fighter and the summoner on its own comes up to the standards of a Malconvoker, which is a prestige class.

I look forward to seeing your second draft.

DragoonWraith
2009-08-27, 01:18 PM
I'll agree with slightly overboard...
I had a very particular idea in mind that isn't supported elsewhere in D&D?


Having just checked it, if you're going to give the doll it's own attack progression, why is the Dollmaster a better fighter than a warmage, despite it not being necessary to your stated concept. It would only make sense if the doll used their BAB.
Which they did, originally. But I decided to try to cut down on the sheer number of rules involved, and that didn't make the cut. But I then forgot to nerf the puppet master's BAB.


I'd suggest taking a look at the Ranger Animal Handler chain from 4th edition for a possible way of handling this.
Don't have any 4e stuff... I'll look-see if any 4e ranger-player's-guides mention some of the mechanics, but I'm not buying a new book just for some homebrew ideas.


Give descriptions for individual actions like 'move attack return' and 'move, deliver touch, return' and 'get up and come back here you lazy hunk of wood' and list them as part of the class feature.
Seems reasonable. And it would make explaining it a lot easier. Yeah, I could see this. Thanks!


Beyond that you just need hit points and damage reduction. I wouldn't even go so far as to stat it up with anything but a strength score as the thing is piloted by the character so it's dex is already kind of set.
Yeah, originally it used the puppet master's Dex, too. Lost at the same time the using-the-master's-BAB went away... Perhaps I'll add that back, and just eliminate the point-buy for the doll.


The Iron/mithril bit was a little bit unclear. I suggest tabulating it and maybe just setting certain defaults.
Err.... did you see the bottom of the page? All 16 possible dolls have monster-stat-blocks at the bottom, for the first level you get each.


Though i'm sure you aren't intending to use actual strings, denying them grapple would be sensible both to simplify them and to avoid the usual grapple thing. Again, this goes away if the doll is capable of only set actions.
I actually want the doll (especially the larger ones) to be capable of grappling, though.


Finally, the summoning elements and enhanced spellcasting compared to a sorcerer would have been enough without the doll. As it is, the class is comfortably as powerful as most gestalt combinations i can imagine, if not more so.
Meh, that's no good. I was going for Beguiler/Dread Necromancer level power. Considering their very limited spell list, though, I don't think it's as good as a Sorcerer. I mean, no teleports, ever, no contingency, no fog spells, minimal direct damage, no wish, no color spray/grease/web/glitterdust... Summons and buffs, and a few flavor spells (the big hand spells just seemed too fitting to pass up, as did some compulsions). Though I could probably pare down the spell list more, too. More buffs would be fitting, though.


The BAB and the doll on their own would make one character about on par with a fighter and the summoner on its own comes up to the standards of a Malconvoker, which is a prestige class.
Well, Malconvoker was somewhat a basis for the summoning-based class features. That said, I'm not sure this is inherently a problem, because though it's a Prestige Class, it still gets Fiendish Legion a level before the Puppet Master, and Fiendish Legion doesn't require any checks. Flexible Summoning is kind of like Rapid Summoning (Conjurer 1 ACF) and a bit of Deceptive Summoning (Malconvoker 1), but you can't combine the effects like a Malconvoker can, you lose out on the improved versions of Deceptive Summoning, and there's more skill checks involved in all three.

Besides, it's not as if the qualifications for Malconvoker are at all burdensome: you want Augment Summons and Spell Focus: Conjuration anyway. Conjurers can get Augment Summons for free, and Spell Focus: Conjuration qualifies you for Master Specialist, which gives you all kinds of goodies, including Greater Spell Focus: Conjuration. Bluff 4 is mildly rough on a Wizard, but they have high Int and can manage, plus it's hardly wasted. Malconvoker loses a spell level, but it also gets a lot more stuff.

So while I agree with the observation, I'm not completely convinced that it is a bad thing. At least, it wouldn't be if the doll was balanced better.


I look forward to seeing your second draft.
Sweet. Now, the question becomes, what exactly do I do to the doll? If the doll by itself could qualify for a solid class in its own right, what do I do to diminish that, and make it fit with the spellcasting without overpowering him?

Mulletmanalive
2009-08-27, 02:46 PM
I had a very particular idea in mind that isn't supported elsewhere in D&D?

On the doll rules. That and a little cool idea = super powerful syndrome as will be addressed later.


Seems reasonable. And it would make explaining it a lot easier. Yeah, I could see this. Thanks!

The 4th ed stuff is simply that the ranger gets a handful of 'exploits' that allow him to do something using his animal.

One might cause the dog to shift [5ft step but better basically] and attack, another might cause both him and the dog to attack the same target etc. I think that at first level, 'Move 15ft, attack and return' as a Standard action, 'Move 15ft, deliver a touch and return' as a Full action when part of a Stanard action casting spell, and 'intercept an attack against me' as an Immediate should be sufficient.

At later levels, you could add more like 'grab and constrict' as a Full action for the Puppetmaster, 'Bullrush a target within 20ft and return' as a Standard action and of course, 'go behind that guy and claim a flank with me, then return' as a standard action.


Err.... did you see the bottom of the page? All 16 possible dolls have monster-stat-blocks at the bottom, for the first level you get each..

No, didn't see those; you asked for a rules looky so i stopped reading at the spell list, assuming it was going to be fluff from there on out. Fluff was unimportant because an idea this cool writes itself fluff wise.


I actually want the doll (especially the larger ones) to be capable of grappling, though. covered this above... I wouldn't expect a puppet to achieve too complex an action really...


So while I agree with the observation, I'm not completely convinced that it is a bad thing. At least, it wouldn't be if the doll was balanced better.

I don't disagree that the limited spell list is a hinderance but you've also got to bear in mind that that free enhancements are a powerful commodity. Additionally, i'm not really clear how the whole Fiendish Legion thing really fits into the idea of being a puppetmaster in the first place, regardless of whether it's gotten a level later than a fully optomised, front-loaded Malconvoker. There are two obvious possibilities that i shall describe in a moment...


Sweet. Now, the question becomes, what exactly do I do to the doll? If the doll by itself could qualify for a solid class in its own right, what do I do to diminish that, and make it fit with the spellcasting without overpowering him?

Well, my gut reaction brings up two possibilities [three technically]: the Kankuro route [naruto] or the Final Fantasy X route [i forget her name].

The Kankuro route cuts down massively on the number of spell slots the character gets and limits them to buffs and compulsion. At higher levels, the puppet stays about as powerful as you have it now or possibly you could use a number of smaller than your limit ones in place of the big ones.

The gimmick is that any Buff that is cast on the puppet is boosted, probably just extended but it's still nifty. This option leaves you with the question of how to use multiple puppets simultaneously and would probably work best with them being creatures like you have the puppet as it stands.

The FFX route takes a different tack, keeping the spellcasting as is or slightly better and reducing the puppet to about the power levels of a familiar. This one has it as a hunk of wood, running off the character's own stats and probably remaining pretty small, relying on it's ability to deliver touches and be a nuisence to gain its value.

Path three would have you having what amounts to a familiar in the form of your puppet and being a spellcaster of moderate power. A base class that's nothing to write home about but paves the way for a sort of Sasori of the Red Sands [naruto again] type uber puppet prestige class and another more based around hijacking the bodies of other characters using magical puppet strings...

The simplest option is probably the Kankuro and simply creating 'everyone attack' and 'one attack, the rest defend me' type combat actions.

PS. another idea is to have the puppets have 'virtual feats' rather than actual ones, with the character spending a spell slot equal to the total number of feats being imitated [Power Attack and Improved Bullrush being a 2nd level slot, etc]. I thought of this simply because i'm not sure why a puppet would be alive [that and your description refers to the puppet as both mindless and not at different points.]

DragoonWraith
2009-08-27, 05:25 PM
On the doll rules. That and a little cool idea = super powerful syndrome as will be addressed later.
Yeah, it's tough to balance.


The 4th ed stuff is simply that the ranger gets a handful of 'exploits' that allow him to do something using his animal.

One might cause the dog to shift [5ft step but better basically] and attack, another might cause both him and the dog to attack the same target etc. I think that at first level, 'Move 15ft, attack and return' as a Standard action, 'Move 15ft, deliver a touch and return' as a Full action when part of a Stanard action casting spell, and 'intercept an attack against me' as an Immediate should be sufficient.

At later levels, you could add more like 'grab and constrict' as a Full action for the Puppetmaster, 'Bullrush a target within 20ft and return' as a Standard action and of course, 'go behind that guy and claim a flank with me, then return' as a standard action.
I like this. I'll rework it to go more in this direction. Things like Grapple will involve using the built-in feats. I also like the idea of those feats costing the puppet master spell slots.


No, didn't see those; you asked for a rules looky so i stopped reading at the spell list, assuming it was going to be fluff from there on out. Fluff was unimportant because an idea this cool writes itself fluff wise.
There's not much fluff in it at all. As you say, it's pretty self-evident.


covered this above... I wouldn't expect a puppet to achieve too complex an action really...
If the puppet master gains greater mastery of it, I think it's conceivable.

Perhaps "spells" (i.e. burns spell slots) to use such actions?


I don't disagree that the limited spell list is a hinderance but you've also got to bear in mind that that free enhancements are a powerful commodity. Additionally, i'm not really clear how the whole Fiendish Legion thing really fits into the idea of being a puppetmaster in the first place, regardless of whether it's gotten a level later than a fully optomised, front-loaded Malconvoker. There are two obvious possibilities that i shall describe in a moment...
I don't think getting into a PrC at the minimum level counts as optimized. Throwing in Master Specialist, maybe, but the MS is in there just for some freebies, not because it's massively important. I fully expect that by the time the Puppet Master gets SM III, the vast majority of them would qualify for Malconvoker anyway. Still, it's Fiendish Legion that justifies the Malconvoker's loss of a spell level, it's true. Will consider this. My only concern is that SM is generally considered sub-par unless you have Deceptive Summoning and Fiendish Legion.


Well, my gut reaction brings up two possibilities [three technically]: the Kankuro route [naruto] or the Final Fantasy X route [i forget her name].
The Summoner? Yuna. Never watched Naruto, though.


The Kankuro route cuts down massively on the number of spell slots the character gets and limits them to buffs and compulsion. At higher levels, the puppet stays about as powerful as you have it now or possibly you could use a number of smaller than your limit ones in place of the big ones.

The gimmick is that any Buff that is cast on the puppet is boosted, probably just extended but it's still nifty. This option leaves you with the question of how to use multiple puppets simultaneously and would probably work best with them being creatures like you have the puppet as it stands.
Not a terrible idea (at all), but I do like the idea of the class remaining a summoner, not wholly devoting himself to the doll. Perhaps a pair of PrC's that focus one way or the other, while the base class goes kind of middle of the road...


The FFX route takes a different tack, keeping the spellcasting as is or slightly better and reducing the puppet to about the power levels of a familiar. This one has it as a hunk of wood, running off the character's own stats and probably remaining pretty small, relying on it's ability to deliver touches and be a nuisence to gain its value.
I've considered this; the Doll could remain quite useful for the ability to apply touch-range buffs to monsters in melee, without the puppet master actually getting into melee. An option, but I also like the idea of a combat-capable doll. But maybe that could be a PrC, that loses some spellcasting...


Path three would have you having what amounts to a familiar in the form of your puppet and being a spellcaster of moderate power. A base class that's nothing to write home about but paves the way for a sort of Sasori of the Red Sands [naruto again] type uber puppet prestige class and another more based around hijacking the bodies of other characters using magical puppet strings...
I'm not quite sure what you mean here, in how this is different from option 2. I mean, you stated option 2 as a spellcaster with a doll that amounts to a familiar. Here, you say the same thing, as far as I can tell?


The simplest option is probably the Kankuro and simply creating 'everyone attack' and 'one attack, the rest defend me' type combat actions.
Yes, this would be simplest. I'd like to keep the SM line, though. The SM line is not generally considered especially powerful, though.


PS. another idea is to have the puppets have 'virtual feats' rather than actual ones, with the character spending a spell slot equal to the total number of feats being imitated [Power Attack and Improved Bullrush being a 2nd level slot, etc]. I thought of this simply because i'm not sure why a puppet would be alive [that and your description refers to the puppet as both mindless and not at different points.]
I'm not sure where the puppet was referred to as alive (it's not), or as anything but mindless (it is). I did say it gained feats as a character that was not mindless would, but only if they are built into the puppet. Still, I really like the idea of using spell slots to power it. That's a really good idea.

My general aim, really, is to have the doll be roughly as powerful as what SM offers at a given level (before the enhancements), but (obviously) permanent. This may be after using spell slots to power it up, though. I like the idea of having that option.

Mulletmanalive
2009-08-27, 07:29 PM
Ok, given it a little more thought...

but first:
Kankuro is a puppet master ninja in Naruto. In the first series of stuff, he uses one puppet which has poison darts and stuff, then displays the ability to use two but one ends up in a set action routine while he uses the other [continuous needle bombardments or grabbing the opponent and locking in position, that type of thing]

Next time he appears, he has three puppets and can use them fluidly at the same time [3 years in compressed manga time]; one's a defensive model and the other two are the capture model and the poison attacker from the earlier arc.

Sasori of the Red Sands has far more powerful puppets, can control a whole bunch of the things and rides around inside one like armour [the more he has, the less powerful they get though].

Option two was based on the idea of a mild utility puppet, option three was a more average puppet [as familiars can be surprisingly resilient] then branching into PrCs.

Anyway:
I had a thought that basically revolves around the idea that rather than truly 'summoning' other creatures, the primary puppet of the Puppetmaster opens, deploying other puppets [basically summon monster but with a mild mod and the primary puppet is taken out of the picture when its in play]. This leaves you with a permanent Summon Monster X effect with more limited options and the ability to use the ability of the spell to summon lesser things.

The modification is that you create something like the fiendish template based on the animated object creature. Maybe like:

Hardness = 5 [assuming wood]
One feat, ignore prerequisites [specialised puppet design basically]
Construct traits
Construct hp
and in addition, you could put in a feature that allows a certain amount of 'Puppets shouldn't be able to do that' by allowing the Puppetmaster to cast his buffs on the carcass of his primary puppet to buff the whole clan.

My other thought, based mostly on the living puppets in Ravenloft [the realm of Odero was snatched from Gothic Italy because of the impossible evil of the Pinocchio equivilent] is that perhaps instead of puppeteering people, he could have a small scattering of visual and sonic illusions [no shadow or that sort of thing] for a little 'set dressing' i.e. drawing his opponents into his puppet show.

If i'm getting macarbe, blame this picture...http://travo-lotus.deviantart.com/art/puppet-master-124306526

DragoonWraith
2009-08-27, 07:37 PM
Hehe, the idea of using illusions to set a stage and manipulate people is a great alternative concept for a puppet master. But not this one. I still really like that idea.

Using the doll to summon other things is weird. The ability to buff everything at once is very useful, but I find it strange how that's applied. However, I do think that's an excellent and more fitting ability to replace the "fiendish legion alike" feature - the ability to affect all creatures under his command with buffs. That's a great idea.

I think I'm going to tone down the doll a lot, make it primarily a summoner that uses the doll to spread buffs around, and then write a PrC for the improved dolls.

Kallisti
2009-08-27, 08:12 PM
Anyway:
I had a thought that basically revolves around the idea that rather than truly 'summoning' other creatures, the primary puppet of the Puppetmaster opens, deploying other puppets [basically summon monster but with a mild mod and the primary puppet is taken out of the picture when its in play]. This leaves you with a permanent Summon Monster X effect with more limited options and the ability to use the ability of the spell to summon lesser things.

The modification is that you create something like the fiendish template based on the animated object creature. Maybe like:

Hardness = 5 [assuming wood]
One feat, ignore prerequisites [specialised puppet design basically]
Construct traits
Construct hp
and in addition, you could put in a feature that allows a certain amount of 'Puppets shouldn't be able to do that' by allowing the Puppetmaster to cast his buffs on the carcass of his primary puppet to buff the whole clan.


You could use the Wood Element Creature template from the Manual of the Planes. The template the way you list it looks...boring, to be honest. It doesn't change too much.
Personally, I don't think the class needs more permanent minions, but maybe an ability that applies the template to all summoned creatures?


My other thought, based mostly on the living puppets in Ravenloft [the realm of Odero was snatched from Gothic Italy because of the impossible evil of the Pinocchio equivilent] is that perhaps instead of puppeteering people, he could have a small scattering of visual and sonic illusions [no shadow or that sort of thing] for a little 'set dressing' i.e. drawing his opponents into his puppet show.

If i'm getting macarbe, blame this picture...http://travo-lotus.deviantart.com/art/puppet-master-124306526

Yes. Yes, yes, yes. +1, sir. Also, that picture is made of win.

I saw this thread, thought, "Puppet master? Sounds kind of interesting..." and came and read all this. I like the idea, but I have a few nitpicks of my own:

First off, some of your wording is a little confusing, which is only to be expected. For example, you specify that a puppet master can use an existing constuct as a doll substitute, but you never provide rules for how this works. Say my puppet master and party just managed to use Ray of Deanimation to deactivate a stained glass golem, and I want to use it as a puppet substitute. How do I figure out it's stats, what built-in feats it gets, etc.?

Also, the prices for the Huge dolls are just so much greater than the other prices that they're not even worth it. They're too weak for the amount of money you'd be paying. I think you should either make them significantly more powerful or significantly cheaper.

The other sizes of doll seem relatively balanced, although if I were you I'd have the DR on the adamantine dolls scale with size. DR 20 seems a bit high for the cheap little Small Adamantine Doll...

I think that maybe, instead of restricting the spell list further, you should take off one spell per day at each level. Lowering power by taking away options is a bad idea. You want people to have plenty of options during a combat.


I think I'm going to tone down the doll a lot, make it primarily a summoner that uses the doll to spread buffs around, and then write a PrC for the improved dolls.

I don't think that's necessary, or a good idea. At first glance they may seem overpowered, but bear in mind that the class gives you no way to make the dolls cheaper. Between that and the Maximum Animation Radius, I think you've got their power sufficiently limited. The Maximum Animation Radius curbs their power a lot.

DragoonWraith
2009-08-27, 09:36 PM
Well, they can leave the maximum animation radius. Just only briefly. But since they can move+act in a single action (they'd be damn useless otherwise), that's mostly a flavor thing (because I like the idea of the doll running back and forth from the puppet master). It can be important, of course, and I realized last post that it makes giving the doll the ability to grapple is pointless as long as it's there, but I don't think it's as big a restriction as you think.

That said, when I look at it, doing what I'd suggested would mean removing the three "improved dolls" abilities, which A. causes gaps, and B. whatever I fill it with will move the class away from the whole puppet master thing. So I don't think I'll be doing that.

The Huge dolls, yes, they're absurd. I like them being so expensive, though, so how would one manage to make them worthwhile? I actually imagined them as something for a BBEG, where they have a bunch of minions working on it and it being some monstrosity that the party should stop... but that's probably over-kill for what is supposed to be a PC class. Thoughts?

And as for paring down the spell list, I was thinking of removing the non-SM summons, as well as some of the extra-planar abilities (Anticipate Teleport, Make Manifest, etc), since those don't seem as fitting with the class.

Kallisti
2009-08-27, 09:45 PM
I think that it's relatively balanced as written. I think the spell list is about the right size, but it could have a spell per day at each level removed, or other relatively small nerf to its total casting power. If I were you, I'd be wary in the extreme of paring down the spell list further. Cool puppets aside, this is still a casting class. Casters are about having options. Better to remove some of their casting ability than to remove spells from the list, it's limited enough at this point.

As to what Mulletmanalive said about sumoning semi-construct minions out of your puppet, I'm not too sure about that, but maybe applying a template to all summoned creatures?

The Effigy template from Complete Arcane, maybe? It's only CR +1, and it fits perfectly. An effigy creature is literally a construct built to mimic an existing creature. Just add a bit of flavor text about marionette strings trailing off into the space above it, and voila! The Marionette template!

As to the Huge puppets, I'm not sure about that... If you want to keep them that expensive, you'd have to increase their power significantly to make it worthwhile. But if you make the super-expensive superpuppet, people will ifnd a way to explot that for great munchkinery, and that defeats the purpose of trying to balance the class. I think your best option is to reduce the price, but it's your call.


Also, the original rules still have some phrasing issues, etc. For example, you use the Built-In feats mechanic, but require that the Puppet meet the prerequisites. I think that's a good call, and prevents abuse. But you put several special abilities on that list like the Iron Golem's breath weapon. Those aren't feats. Are your puppets just considered to meet the prerequisites for them if they're special abilities and not feats? And you never answred my question about the "puppet substitutes" rules.

Maybe you could have seperate lists of feats and special abilities, and when crafting a puppet you choose to give it either a feat or a special ability for each feat it was going to get under the original ruling. It would give you more opportunites to be creative about the capacities of the puppets, but it would require more work.

I liked the earlier idea of using spell slots to power up your puppets. Maybe to the list of Built-in feats and special abilities you could add some special abilities that are somewhat more powerful, but need to be powered by spell slots? That way, you could give the Puppet master a way to have access to blasting-type spells without expanding its spell list. Balancing those would be a lot of work, though...

DragoonWraith
2009-08-27, 10:12 PM
I think that it's relatively balanced as written. I think the spell list is about the right size, but it could have a spell per day at each level removed, or other relatively small nerf to its total casting power. If I were you, I'd be wary in the extreme of paring down the spell list further. Cool puppets aside, this is still a casting class. Casters are about having options. Better to remove some of their casting ability than to remove spells from the list, it's limited enough at this point.
Well, I think I'll remove some of the extraneous summons (and the ever-nefarious Gate), add some more buffs (suggestions?) since I feel he needs more as that's his schtick, and some additional Compulsions because they're ever so fitting. Geas could fit very well (not great for a PC, true, but like I said, for the flavor, so worth it), as could Suggestion. And maybe a couple of Illusions: Hallucinatory Terrain would work nicely for manipulation, I think.

And maybe a class ability that allows the Puppet Master to make the Sense Motive check to detect his compelled minions opposed by his Sleight of Hand check, instead of the flat DC? Would need some kind of negative modifier, though, as that could be very powerful; compulsion DCs are low for a reason...


As to what Mulletmanalive said about sumoning semi-construct minions out of your puppet, I'm not too sure about that, but maybe applying a template to all summoned creatures?

The Effigy template from Complete Arcane, maybe? It's only CR +1, and it fits perfectly. An effigy creature is literally a construct built to mimic an existing creature. Just add a bit of flavor text about marionette strings trailing off into the space above it, and voila! The Marionette template!
That sounds excellent. Yes, I think I shall do this.


As to the Huge puppets, I'm not sure about that... If you want to keep them that expensive, you'd have to increase their power significantly to make it worthwhile. But if you make the super-expensive superpuppet, people will ifnd a way to explot that for great munchkinery, and that defeats the purpose of trying to balance the class. I think your best option is to reduce the price, but it's your call.
Yeah, I will. You're absolutely right, and as much as it would be awesome in a plot, for actual play, it wouldn't work. DMs could give a BBEG Puppet Master some artifact that allows absurdly powerful Gargantuan dolls perhaps, if they want. No need to make it part of the actual class, though.


Also, the original rules still have some phrasing issues, etc. For example, you use the Built-In feats mechanic, but require that the Puppet meet the prerequisites. I think that's a good call, and prevents abuse. But you put several special abilities on that list like the Iron Golem's breath weapon. Those aren't feats. Are your puppets just considered to meet the prerequisites for them if they're special abilities and not feats?
I assumed it would be clear that those were "feats" that granted those special abilities. No pre-requisites aside from the HD requirement.


And you never answred my question about the "puppet substitutes" rules.
That's because I don't have any rules for it. I just kind of tossed that in there without a lot of thought, which I agree was a poor choice. But anyway, the idea was that you get them as-is - they do not grow with you like dolls do, they do not gain bonus feats, and you cannot use most of their abilities - just whack things with them.


Maybe you could have seperate lists of feats and special abilities, and when crafting a puppet you choose to give it either a feat or a special ability for each feat it was going to get under the original ruling. It would give you more opportunites to be creative about the capacities of the puppets, but it would require more work.
Yeah, I intend to do something like this.


I liked the earlier idea of using spell slots to power up your puppets. Maybe to the list of Built-in feats and special abilities you could add some special abilities that are somewhat more powerful, but need to be powered by spell slots? That way, you could give the Puppet master a way to have access to blasting-type spells without expanding its spell list. Balancing those would be a lot of work, though...
That's the idea. The list is going to be replaced by a table with feats/abilities, their minimum HD, the spell slot they use (if any), and any pre-reqs. As long as the puppet master is animating a doll with feats/abilities that require certain spell slots, those slots are removed from their spells per day. They may de-animate the doll and use the slot, but they cannot re-animate the doll until they get that slot back, I'm thinking.

Kallisti
2009-08-27, 10:23 PM
Well, I think you should leave most of the summons. They seem to fit the flavor--a puppet master, one who fights with hordes of minions--especially since you gave them the buffs to summoning (Flexible Summoning, Imbued Summoning, Minion Manipulation), but as long as they have all of the Summon Monster spells and the Summon Golem spells from the Spell Compendium they should be all right. I agree that removing Gate is a good call. It's a summoning spell, kind of, but opening a hole in the universe just...doesn't quite fit.

About the puppet substitute rules? Yeah, kind of figured. You can figure sometihng out later, but my advice would be to treat it as an animated object of its size, and encourage individual Dm's to figure out special rules for the material the construct is made out of. There are some pretty obscure golems...maybe compile a list of special rules for the more common exotic metals (clay, iron, stone, flesh, mithril, adamantine, wood...)

And, on a completely unrelated note, help out someone new to the internet and tell me what exactly the Fax Celestis website is?

DragoonWraith
2009-08-27, 10:28 PM
I don't think it's that bad to just say "the substitute doll can only perform melee attacks as a doll can normally". Maybe some kind of way to attune to the new construct to use all of its abilities like it was intended, maybe, but that's more work than I'm interested in. If the clause is problematic, I'd sooner just remove it.

Anyway, I was definitely keeping the Summon Monster line (but it'd be Summon Marionette!, hehe), I meant things like Mage's Faithful Hound (actually, that one in particular may stay), Extract Water Elemental, Fire Spiders, etc. Ooze Puppet'll probably stay, just cuz it's got Puppet in it, heh.

And there's a Summon Golem line?! I missed that! Will definitely look into that.

EDIT: Ooh, Steal Summon is a Sorc/Wiz 6 spell. That's awesome, definitely adding that.

Kallisti
2009-08-27, 10:36 PM
I don't think it's that bad to just say "the substitute doll can only perform melee attacks as a doll can normally". Maybe some kind of way to attune to the new construct to use all of its abilities like it was intended, maybe, but that's more work than I'm interested in. If the clause is problematic, I'd sooner just remove it.

Anyway, I was definitely keeping the Summon Monster line (but it'd be Summon Marionette!, hehe), I meant things like Mage's Faithful Hound (actually, that one in particular may stay), Extract Water Elemental, Fire Spiders, etc. Ooze Puppet'll probably stay, just cuz it's got Puppet in it, heh.

And there's a Summon Golem line?! I missed that! Will definitely look into that.

I think it's kind of a neat idea to be able to use a construct you've defeated, but it would be very problematic trying to get those effects pinned down because of the sheer number and diversity of constucts out there...

Yeah, faithful hound can definitely go, and extract water elemental. Fire spiders is pretty freakin' cool, but doesn't really fit. Ooze puppet's probably a good idea, the actual spell fits in addition to the name...

There's no Summon Golem line, per say, but there's at leat one spell that summons a golem. I'm searching for it now, but I don't think it's in the spell compendium (though that does have the Call Inevitable line...)

EDIT: The spell "Puppeteer" is not on the spell list? What gives?
EDITEDIT: And Steal Summoning is a nice fit...
EDIT III: Found it. Summon Golem, PHBII, ninth level spell that can summon any golem from the Monster Manual I for 1 minute/level.

DragoonWraith
2009-08-27, 10:46 PM
I just looked up the Effigy, and... eh. It removes a lot of the versatility of Summon Monster. You lose all Con-based special abilities (makes sense, but...), you lose all skill points, you lose all feats, you potentially lose full BAB. You lose any good saves. You lose all mental abilities. I dunno. While fitting, it hurts the Summon Monster line a lot to put this in there.

Where is Puppeteer? Definitely should be in. And thanks on Summon Golem. Crystal Keep oddly doesn't have it...

Found Puppeteer, didn't look on the Bard list. OK.

Kallisti
2009-08-27, 11:14 PM
I don't know where Puppeteer is originally from, but it's in the Spell Compendium. It's a third level spell, currently bard only I think, that forces the target to mimic all of your actions and do nothing else. So, for example, you cast the spell and start to walk towards the cliff...
...it's kind of weird and not all that powerful (Good, but no better than, say, Hold Person), but it fits.

As for the effigy, you're right. I just looked at that...

...okay, so homebrew something. My board-fu is too weak to make tables, but:


Marionette
"Marionette" is an acquired template that can be added to any creature summoned by a Puppet Master (hereafter referred to ase the 'base creature'). A marionette uses all the base creature's statistics and special abilities except as noted here.
Size and Type: The creature's type changes to Construct. Do not recalculate base attack bonus, saving throws, feats, or skill pints, but any additional hit dice added to the base creature after it's summoning are hit dice of construct and follow the rules for constuct levels (3/4 BaB, all saves poor, no skills, no feats, etc).
Hit Dice and Hit Points: As a construct, the base creature loses all hit points from Constitution, but gians bonus hit points based on its size:
Fine or Tiny: 0
Small: 10
Medium: 20
Large: 30
Huge: 40
Gargantuan: 60
Colossal: 80
Speed: As base creature
Base Attack Bonus: As base creature, see Size and Type
Attack: As base creature.
Special Attacks: As base creature, but any based on Constitution are now based on the constitution of the Puppet Master who summoned the marionette.
Special Qualitites: AS base creature, plus the following:
Damage Reduction(Ex):DR based on hit dice:
1-3: 1/adamantine
4-6: 3/adamantine
7-10: 5/adamantine
11-15: 7/adamantine
16-20: 10/adamantine
21 or more: 15/adamantine
Eerie Presence(Su): Becasue of the eerie appearance of a marionette, all enemies within a 10-ft. radius of a Marionette take a -1 morale penalty on attack, damage, and saving throws.
Puppet Strings (Su): A Marionette has puppet stings trailing off from its limbs into the space above it. If these strings are severed, the Marionette collapses and can take no actions until they are repaired. The strings have hardness one, HP equal to the bonus HP granted by the Marionette's size (or 1 HP for fine to tiny Marionettes). The strings have DR equal to the Marionette's DR in addition to their hardness. A repair spell or other magical healing that affects constructs can be used to repair damaged strings, and any healing the Marionette receives also affects its stings, but to repair severed strings, a single spell must be used that cures at least as many points of damage as the stings had HP.
Saving Throws: As base creature, see Size and Type
Abilities:Str+4, Dex-2, Con--
Skills and Feats: As base creature.

Does that work? It's basically Effigy that doesn't screw over your summoned creatures, but I added the strings and the aura to give it some unique flavor.

DragoonWraith
2009-08-27, 11:25 PM
That looks awesome. Thanks. I can tabulate like whoa, as my board-fu (code-fu in general) is reasonably strong, so thanks.

At this point, I'm going through Crystal Keep's list and marking anything and everything that's fitting. I'll have to remove a lot later, of course, since the limited spell list is important to the class (going for a list similar in size to that of the Beguiler; currently it's a bit larger).

Kallisti
2009-08-27, 11:28 PM
Sounds like a plan.

Yeah, limited spell list is pretty important. But if you just can't decide, why not give them a more sizable list, then give them a relatively limited number of spells known, like sorceror instead of beguiler? It would be a relatively major change, so only do it if you really cannot fit all of the spells the class needs into a small spell list.

DragoonWraith
2009-08-27, 11:32 PM
Err... Sorcerer and Beguiler get almost identical spells-per-day. Sorcerers actually get one more casting of 9th level spells at 20 than Beguilers do... Did you mean Wizard?

I'm somewhat wary of lowering his spells per day too much. Summon spells don't last very long, and if your schtick is to summon things and buff them, you're using several spells per battle to create your army and buff it...

Kallisti
2009-08-27, 11:34 PM
No, I mean spells known, not spells per day, and I mean sorceror. The reason sorcerors get so many spells per day is that they only know a few spells at each level. I was saying you could go that route, if you just can't give up enough spells to make a small spell list.

DragoonWraith
2009-08-27, 11:49 PM
Oh, so let the player choose from the smaller list? Eh... nah, I'll pare it down myself. I know well why Sorcerers are the way they are, heh.

Heh, awesome images I wish I could use for this class:
The Puppet Master (http://wonderland-chan.deviantart.com/art/ATLAB-The-Puppet-Master-69437234)
Puppet Master (http://ravenxcorpse.deviantart.com/art/Puppet-Master-124217416)
Pinocchio's Master (http://bakanekonei.deviantart.com/art/Pinocchio-s-Master-92127790)

By the way... your sig has a grammatical error. The anti-1337-speak one. Not that I disagree, but as my father always told me "if you're going to break balls, be accurate". There's a point where it says "dont" rather than "don't".

I am toning down the Doll, too. Small, Medium, Large, Huge has become Tiny, Small, Medium, Large, and Clay has become Wood. The rules for doll actions should be easier to read/understand now, too.

OK, whoo! I really like the class features now. The Doll's greatly toned down, too; let me know what you think. Pretty sure it's still quite usable, but not as ridiculous. Rules are still lengthy, but hopefully clearer.

Spell list needs to be limited somewhat, since it still is just a list of everything that could fit, rather than the actual list I want to use. And the Doll stat blocks need to be updated for this overhaul. Possibly the feat list, too.

Kallisti
2009-08-28, 01:56 PM
By the way... your sig has a grammatical error. The anti-1337-speak one. Not that I disagree, but as my father always told me "if you're going to break balls, be accurate". There's a point where it says "dont" rather than "don't".


I know. It was in someone else's sig, and when I noticed that the "I, for one, support good grammar!" animated sig banner had a grammatical error, I laughed so hard that I just had to steal it for my sig...

EDIT: I've always loved the concept of puppets masters, and now I have a stong urge to play a Puppet Master or Puppet Master/Beguiler, but there's still a few things that need done:
On the Marionette template, the Eerie Presence ability reads "Because of the disturbing presence of the uncanny valley effect..." What exactly does it mean, uncanny valley effect?

Other than that, looking good. There are a couple of other problems, but they're listed on your "to do list," so I'll critique those once they're finished.

One concern about the dolls, though: On the old stat blocks, most of them had AC Not enough. They don't have a ton of HP relative to the level at which they'd be available. This is mostly a problem with the Large and Huge dolls: The huge Adamantium doll has an AC of 16 and 240 HP. it costs 240,000 gp, which is a huge investment--more than a Vest of the Archmagi by quite a bit, and the Vest is one of the greatest caster items in the game. So you'd need to be high level--probably twenty--to get it. At those levels, AC 16 and 240 HP won't last too long. The DR helps, but I still worry that high-level puppet masters will end up getting their expensive toys smashed. I don't know if this is fixed in the new stat blocks, but it could be a problem.

EDIT the Second: I just noticed you credited me with the Marionette template. I'm not sure I deserve credit--I just took the Effigy template, changed it so that you don't recalculate the abilities to account for the counstruct type (which would be an unnecessarily large and tedious amount of bookkeeping anyway) and threw on the Strings and the aura for some unique flavor. I stole all the tables and everything directly from Effigy. Thank you, though:smallbiggrin:!

DragoonWraith
2009-08-28, 02:23 PM
I know. It was in someone else's sig, and when I noticed that the "I, for one, support good grammar!" animated sig banner had a grammatical error, I laughed so hard that I just had to steal it for my sig...
Haha, ok.


EDIT: I've always loved the concept of puppets masters, and now I have a stong urge to play a Puppet Master or Puppet Master/Beguiler, but there's still a few things that need done:
On the Marionette template, the Eerie Presence ability reads "Because of the disturbing presence of the uncanny valley effect..." What exactly does it mean, uncanny valley effect?
Hehe, that's actually a "Real Life" term. It comes from robotics: as a robot becomes more and more human-like, it becomes more personable for viewers, allowing them to identify with it more. So R2D2 is better than an industrial robot, C-3PO is better still, and an actual human being (or robot that looks and behaves just like one) is best. However, if you are too close to human without actually being human (like a marionette), it just freaks people out, and as an exactly opposite effect.

Here's a graph, which shows the valley:
http://www.architecture.uwaterloo.ca/faculty_projects/terri/uncanny/ross/filmpics/uncannyvalley1_422x330.jpg

In other words, it's just fluff. Animatronic animals don't freak people out, but animatronic people do. Hence the restriction that only creatures of the same type get freaked out.


Other than that, looking good. There are a couple of other problems, but they're listed on your "to do list," so I'll critique those once they're finished.
Feel free to mention them now; it may save me work!


One concern about the dolls, though: On the old stat blocks, most of them had AC Not enough. They don't have a ton of HP relative to the level at which they'd be available. This is mostly a problem with the Large and Huge dolls: The huge Adamantium doll has an AC of 16 and 240 HP. it costs 240,000 gp, which is a huge investment--more than a Vest of the Archmagi by quite a bit, and the Vest is one of the greatest caster items in the game. So you'd need to be high level--probably twenty--to get it. At those levels, AC 16 and 240 HP won't last too long. The DR helps, but I still worry that high-level puppet masters will end up getting their expensive toys smashed. I don't know if this is fixed in the new stat blocks, but it could be a problem.
Well, the huge Dolls are gone entirely, so that's a non-issue. Other than that - I've only played casters (barring a single level 3 Rogue in a one-shot), and only at relatively low levels. Designing a melee character for high levels is something I don't have any experience for, unfortunately. I'll try to look up the stats of creatures around those levels for input.

Kallisti
2009-08-28, 02:47 PM
OK, thank you. I'd noticed the same effect--things that are close, but just different enough, are often creepier than things that look completely inhuman--but I didn't realize there was a name for it. I'm not sure about using it in rules text, it might cause confusion, but for all I know it could be a relatively common term that I just haven't heard before.

The problems I mentioned that were on your to-do list: mostly just updating the Wiki entry, since that seems to be where the official rules should go. I'm pretty sure I mentioned the problem with the dolls seeming a little fragile at higher levels.

I'm not so sure I mentioned why I think the marionette strings on dominated people might be a problem, though. Here's my thinking: The DC to notice them will probably be pretty high, but the strings share the base creature's DR and construct bonus HP. A dominated creature will probably have neither, meaning the strings default to 1 HP and hardness 1, which could make ending the Puppet Master's dominate spells too easy. I think the strings should be made more durable.

As for the doll's fragility: A high-level melee fighter can easily dish out 75 or 80 damage in a round with only medium optimization. A really optimized fighter focused on damage will dole out even more. I think that, since the dolls are relatively expensive, the puppet master should have a way to repair a destroyed doll. Because actually making the dolls tougher could cause a new problem--they become too powerful. I don't have the new statblocks, so I don't know if any of this is even still an issue, but I can say from experience that players hate seeing their toys smashed, and with a toy this important there should be a way to get it back. Revive Undead and Revive outsider are both 6th level spells that have a casting time of 1 minute and a material component that costs 5,000 gp. Maybe a custom Revive Constuct spell?

DragoonWraith
2009-08-28, 03:48 PM
Total Repair is already a spell on their spell list. It generally only heals Constructs, but I could see it bringing a destroyed Dool back together again.

As for the marionette strings on Dominated creatures, I suspect that they've never going to be difficult to sever - as long as they are seen. It's not exactly clear, but by RAW even as written (and this is RAI, in this case, though again that may not be clear), the strings are untouchable unless detected. No action taken by a creature unaware of them can damage them in the slightest.

Kallisti
2009-08-28, 04:00 PM
True. I imagine the DC's will be pretty high. Someone with ranks of sense motive might spot them, though, and with a normal dominated creature even if you make your check you just notice that they're acting oddly. With the new rules, you actually see puppet strings.

Still, the Dc's should probably be high enough that it won't be a problem, since several other class features also reward having a high Sleight of Hand check.

DragoonWraith
2009-08-28, 06:58 PM
Well, updated the stat blocks, changed a few things around, reworded Eerie Presence to make it clear that uncanny valley is just fluff (I think). Sooo... just need to go through the Spell List.

Thoughts, comments, opinions, always welcome! Would especially like to hear from Mulletmanalive again, since he hasn't posted since I wrote the "second draft", so to speak, and any new contributors would be great. Kallisti, commentary on Doll stats and costs would be great, too.

Kallisti
2009-08-28, 07:30 PM
The costs on the dolls look more reasonable now, and using X for dexterity should make them somewhat more durable, and I think it's an interesting mechanic. Looks pretty good, but one thing: I can't sem to find where the damage for their slam attacks is listed. I know you can equip them with weapons, but how much damage do they do otherwise? You could just use the slam damage table form the Effigy template.

DragoonWraith
2009-08-28, 07:51 PM
I was thinking that they just couldn't attack unarmed unless they have Improved Unarmed Strike... which probably doesn't make too much sense. Maybe I'll just give them the Slam attack and remove Improved Unarmed Strike from the list... oh, but that means fixing all the backgrounds... ew.

Kallisti
2009-08-28, 07:53 PM
You could rule that, but I think it would make sense for a Large adamantium creature to have a slam attack...

DragoonWraith
2009-08-29, 02:07 PM
Well, I put in the Slam attack progression; taken straight from the Effigy.

I've also started a Puppet Master Kobold (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=29374) in Paragon Badger's Deicide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121038) campaign.

Kallisti
2009-08-29, 03:11 PM
Looks like our work here is done, then. I look forward to a chance to play one of these myself...

DragoonWraith
2009-08-29, 04:50 PM
Ya know, I hate finishing homebrew. Then it just... drops off the forums, ya know? Not literally, thanks to the compendium, but still. It's kind of sad the way it just ends once it's finished.

Anyway, thanks for all of your help. It definitely improved the class a great deal.

I'm still, of course, interested in any feedback that anyone has!

Kallisti
2009-08-29, 05:12 PM
Well, there's always room to improve, but I can't think of anything at the moment. By the time I can't find flaws with your class, you know you've done a good job:smallwink:.

DragoonWraith
2009-08-31, 02:37 PM
OK, one thing I'm considering is giving the Doll's a maximum dexterity based on size. Because if you've got a Large Adamantine Doll, it's got 22 Strength and a base AC of 18 before Dexterity, and meanwhile there's a pretty good chance that the Puppet Master's got at least 20 Dexterity. The natural armor matches a Full Plate, with a +8, but Full Plate's got a max Dexterity bonus of +1, where the Doll has a +5. That seems rather significant...

Kallisti
2009-08-31, 05:10 PM
Could be, but the puppet master's casting stat is Int, so if he wants to invest in his dexterity and up the power of his dolls, he's not focusing on his Int and his casting. Although a good starting dex and some gloves of dex could net you an eighteen to a twenty pretty easily...

...maybe a max dex is a good idea. It should probably be something pretty generous, though, because there's no Revive Construct spell that I know of, so you'll want a Puppet Master's little toys to be durable.

Perhaps the Max Dex could be based on size and modified by material, but you can increase it using a built-in feat or special ability? Just a thought...

DragoonWraith
2009-08-31, 07:49 PM
It all sounds reasonable to me.

Oh yeah, I was going to do something with Total Repair to make it also capable of reviving Dolls, huh? Forgot about that. I'll look into that.

But yeah, I was thinking something like this:
{table=head]Size|Max Dex
Tiny | unlimited
Small | +6
Medium | +4
Large | +3[/table]
Mithril adds 1, Adamantium deducts 1.

Kallisti
2009-08-31, 07:52 PM
That sounds pretty fair. That way with the large adamantium doll you get +2, which is easily low enough to keep things balanced.

Mulletmanalive
2009-09-01, 06:28 PM
Just like to thank you because in thinking about getting this class working for you, i ended up building a version i liked better and have moved on to making the rest of Le Cirque Funeste [the circus of evil/madness/horror]

I'm not going to post it unless you actually want to see it because it's not really relevant here: i took a mostly different approach to yours and went for a heavy horror tilt.

Anyway, cheers

DragoonWraith
2009-09-01, 06:34 PM
I appreciate the thanks and would love to see it (though perhaps in its own thread; feel free to link to it). But I'd also love to hear your opinion of the direction that this class has gone in, if you care to give it. Thanks!

Kallisti
2009-09-01, 07:39 PM
I appreciate the thanks and would love to see it (though perhaps in its own thread; feel free to link to it).

Seconded. I've always been a sucker for the dark-carnival feel. I've stolen huge parts of the Carnival of Shadows from Legends&Lairs and adapted it to my own games. I'd love to see your Cirque Funeste.

Mulletmanalive
2009-09-02, 05:59 AM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6845812#post6845812

I'm currently working on the rest of the Le Cirque Funeste. Note that i designed this for the modified system that i run. Some things may be more or less damaging than they would normally be and others may not make much sense.

Kallisti
2009-09-02, 03:16 PM
I'm not sure I can judge your rules yet, but what I see is...well...made of win. Pure, unadulterated, grade-A win.