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shadow_archmagi
2009-08-26, 09:44 PM
So, apparently, a DC 25 check is 1d6 gold PER DAY.

:-/

That means after seven weeks of hitting DC 25, and only rolling 6's, a skilled bard is able to equal the treasure a single first-level adventurer earns on his first day of combat.

While the adventurer has earned his money by killing, say, a pair of crippled elderly kobolds, the bard is so talented that he could easily be recruited by the ruling nobility, and if he improves much more, could easily attract the attention of extraplanar creatures.

This does not seem fair.

NEO|Phyte
2009-08-26, 09:50 PM
So, apparently, a DC 25 check is 1d6 gold PER DAY.

:-/

That means after seven weeks of hitting DC 25, and only rolling 6's, a skilled bard is able to equal the treasure a single first-level adventurer earns on his first day of combat.

While the adventurer has earned his money by killing, say, a pair of crippled elderly kobolds, the bard is so talented that he could easily be recruited by the ruling nobility, and if he improves much more, could easily attract the attention of extraplanar creatures.

This does not seem fair.
Why would this bard that was assumably already adventuring to reach the levels where he can consistently hit DC 25 want to MASSIVELY cripple his cashflow by retiring to just perform for people?

Glyde
2009-08-26, 09:55 PM
I, as the DM, would rule that every so often a nobleman or member of royalty catches him in a performance and makes a substantial donation.

Andras
2009-08-26, 09:55 PM
Performing is very, very low-risk compared to adventuring.

FirebirdFlying
2009-08-26, 09:56 PM
…Because he might not die that way? Not everyone with ranks in Perform is an adventurer. 1d6 gold is a lot of money for the majority of people.

EDIT: Ninja'ed.

Kallisti
2009-08-26, 09:56 PM
Everyone knows that all monsters are dirty filthy rich, whereas NPC's are not. For example, an adventurer is attacked by Ma and Pa Kobold. He kills them. They have the standard treasure per encounter for his level. The same adventurer meets Ma and Pa Kobold in the city of Podunk-Flyspeck, and kills them because he's a racist bastard. They have maybe three copper peces? Maybe?

Truly, Banjo works in mysterious ways...

Milskidasith
2009-08-26, 09:57 PM
Preforming is very low risk...

What are you talking about? On a bad check after gaining a lot of popularity, the 1d4 humiliation damage from rotten tomatoes really starts to add up.

sadi
2009-08-26, 09:57 PM
Why would this bard that was assumably already adventuring to reach the levels where he can consistently hit DC 25 want to MASSIVELY cripple his cashflow by retiring to just perform for people?

Those lute strings normally aren't quite as fatal as a troll's claws. And once you can consistently hit 25, you have a good chance of hitting 30, for 3d6 a day.

FirebirdFlying
2009-08-26, 10:00 PM
Also, like Glyde, I tend to assume the money given there is if someone just waltzed into the middle of the town square and put out a hat, no connections whatsoever - or at least just gig money. There's teaching money, maybe a salary if you're working for someone consistently, etc.

FoE
2009-08-26, 10:01 PM
Performing is very, very low-risk compared to adventuring.

But not nearly as fun. :smalltongue:

Elfin
2009-08-26, 10:21 PM
No, nothing can compare to the fun of being torn apart by vicious talons and drowning in a bloody whirlpool of your own insides, then being devoured whole, crushed and torn even more by razor-sharp fangs, and finally dissolved entirely by stomach acid.
Yep, nothing beats life as an adventurer.

Kallisti
2009-08-26, 10:23 PM
What people usually seem to forget is that for every invincible plot-armored PC adventurer, there's a PC adventurer who died of a fatal lack of plot armor, and ten NPC adventurers who died from a fatal lack of lack of monsters.

FirebirdFlying
2009-08-26, 10:25 PM
No, nothing can compare to the fun of being torn apart by vicious talons raving fans and drowning in a bloody whirlpool of your own insides (aka vomit), then being devoured whole by the critics, crushed and torn even more by razor-sharp fangs the record companies, and finally dissolved entirely by stomach acid.
Yep, nothing's better than life as an adventurer a musician.

Fixed that for you.

FoE
2009-08-26, 10:25 PM
No, nothing can compare to the fun of being torn apart by vicious talons and drowning in a bloody whirlpool of your own insides, then being devoured whole, crushed and torn even more by razor-sharp fangs, and finally dissolved entirely by stomach acid.

On the other hand, no musician ever saved the world, built their own kingdom or ascended to godhood.


Yep, nothing beats life as an adventurer.

I know! Isn't it great?

Mando Knight
2009-08-26, 10:25 PM
This does not seem fair.

1d6 gp per day is all a DC 25 check can get you? How about making everyone indifferent to your existence (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/diplomacy.htm)? With 3 synergy skills, a racial bonus, and a feat...

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-26, 10:29 PM
Performing is very, very low-risk compared to adventuring.

Low risk, low pay-out.


FYI, a level 1 adventurer can level-grind up to 20th in 2 months. In 2 months, this Bard has the equivalent of 30d6gp. The 20th level adventurer has a standard WBL of 760,000gp, 20 levels worth of class features, 7 or more feats, and who knows how many artifacts or magic items.


Yeah, Perform is seriously overpowered. Nerf it, and while you're at it, nerf the Bard too. Again. (http://flgs.akashicrecord.org/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=217&start=25)



[/Obligatory sarcasm tag]

Kylarra
2009-08-26, 10:31 PM
Low risk, low pay-out.


FYI, a level 1 adventurer can level-grind up to 20th in 2 months. In 2 months, this Bard has the equivalent of 30d6gp. The 20th level adventurer has a standard WBL of 760,000gp, 20 levels worth of class features, 7 or more feats, and who knows how many artifacts or magic items.


Yeah, Perform is seriously overpowered. Nerf it, and while you're at it, nerf the Bard too. Again. (http://flgs.akashicrecord.org/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=217&start=25)
[/Obligatory sarcasm tag]

Or they could just be dead. :smalltongue:

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-26, 10:35 PM
Or they could just be dead. :smalltongue:

Fact: 1 in 4 adventurers has needed a Rez spell at some point in their career.


But yeah, nothing ruins your day like a Critical Existence Failure.

BRC
2009-08-26, 10:37 PM
Remember that everthing in the rules that is not related to "Kill things and take their stuff" is more or less an afterthought.

Also, while the PC's always have an ample supply of things to kill and stuff to take that is just tough enough to challenge them, but not tough enough to wipe the floor with them, 99% of adventurers are going to keep running into villages harassed by 1st level bandits, or are going to wipe out the cult led by the 17th level necromancer who proceeds to animate their skeletons without bothering to kill them first.

Random832
2009-08-26, 10:48 PM
Yeah, Perform is seriously overpowered. Nerf it, and while you're at it, nerf the Bard too. Again. (http://flgs.akashicrecord.org/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=217&start=25)

So... wait...


You need to sing or play to inspire courage.
You need to dance to get any of your wardances off.
You need to sing in order to fight while inspiring courage because otherwise your hands are tied up.
You need to play a handheld instrument in order to continue inspiring courage while casting spells because all Bard spells have Verbal Components.
You need to play the pipes specifically to summon and control rats.
You need to play a stringed instrument to get any of a number of other effects.

:smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smallconfused: all this is written where?

I've never heard of any of these in core. What's a wardance? What's this about rats? What are these alleged string-dependent effects? You can hardly blame the core bard for all this.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-26, 10:53 PM
So... wait...



:smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smallconfused: all this is written where?

I've never heard of any of these in core. What's a wardance? What's this about rats? What are these alleged string-dependent effects? You can hardly blame the core bard for all this.

Snowflake Wardance is in Frostburn. Song of the Heart is in the ECS, Song of the White Raven is in Tome of Battle, and Words of Creation is in the BoED.

Most of the rest can be found while reading the Core rules and seeing how they interact. You cannot sing while casting a Bard spell because only a few Bard spells lack a Verbal component (one or two, and even those are situational), thus you need to play an instrument to maintain your Inspire X ability. You can't use Words of Creation+Song of the Heart+Song of the White Raven with a drum, so you have to sing first.

The pipes part is a magic item. Same with the String instrument part.


Bards effectively need to spend 4 skill points/level on various Perform skills, leaving very little room for much else. Three of the biggest offenders are Core, the remaining two are actually very powerful and should be taken if allowed, and are a staple of Bardic optimization.

Kallisti
2009-08-26, 11:27 PM
Well, they did introduce Versatile Performer in the Complete Scoundrel and Melodic Casting in the PHB II, so for two feats you can sing, dance, play stringed intruments, drum, and juggle, and cast spells with verbal components while singing.

But it still means buring one or two feats. Feats that you might, oh, I don't know, need for something else.

Xenogears
2009-08-26, 11:40 PM
I always figured you just used perform when the DM said that "plot point X happens in 3 months. What do you guys do?" Answer: "I perform everyday. So thats 90d6; average of 720 gold that I use on these potions we require for plot point X."

chiasaur11
2009-08-26, 11:58 PM
On the other hand, no musician ever saved the world, built their own kingdom or ascended to godhood.



Elvis might disagree on the first point. Depending on the threat level of mummies.

Nai_Calus
2009-08-27, 12:16 AM
On the other hand, no musician ever ascended to godhood.


Ye'Cind.

To be fair, he WAS apparently an adventurer at one point, but he got promoted to godhood because Corellon Larethian apparently really, really liked his recorder playing.

ericgrau
2009-08-27, 12:18 AM
So, apparently, a DC 25 check is 1d6 gold PER DAY.

:-/

That means after seven weeks of hitting DC 25, and only rolling 6's, a skilled bard is able to equal the treasure a single first-level adventurer earns on his first day of combat.

While the adventurer has earned his money by killing, say, a pair of crippled elderly kobolds, the bard is so talented that he could easily be recruited by the ruling nobility, and if he improves much more, could easily attract the attention of extraplanar creatures.

This does not seem fair.

1. Adventurers should make their gold from adventuring not a profession or performance.
2. You also get the attention of noble patrons and become well known nationally. Thems hookups.

Skorj
2009-08-27, 12:26 AM
Snowflake Wardance is in Frostburn. Song of the Heart is in the ECS, Song of the White Raven is in Tome of Battle, and Words of Creation is in the BoED.

Most of the rest can be found while reading the Core rules and seeing how they interact. You cannot sing while casting a Bard spell because only a few Bard spells lack a Verbal component (one or two, and even those are situational), thus you need to play an instrument to maintain your Inspire X ability. You can't use Words of Creation+Song of the Heart+Song of the White Raven with a drum, so you have to sing first.

The pipes part is a magic item. Same with the String instrument part.


Bards effectively need to spend 4 skill points/level on various Perform skills, leaving very little room for much else. Three of the biggest offenders are Core, the remaining two are actually very powerful and should be taken if allowed, and are a staple of Bardic optimization.

Don't the effects of bard song last for a few rounds after you stop playing? Is lingering song a 3.5 feat, or 3.0 only? Surely there's a way to sing and cast on alternate rounds.

Signmaker
2009-08-27, 12:32 AM
A well-built alchemical crafter rakes in a lot more than a well-built performer, sadly. Damn you, alchemical savants!

DragoonWraith
2009-08-27, 12:54 AM
On the other hand, no musician ever saved the world, built their own kingdom or ascended to godhood.
I can think of a large number of rock stars who would argue one or more of those points, hehe.

sadi
2009-08-27, 01:14 AM
On the other hand, no musician ever saved the world, built their own kingdom or ascended to godhood.



I know! Isn't it great?


Bono will have a word with you now.

tyckspoon
2009-08-27, 01:40 AM
Bards effectively need to spend 4 skill points/level on various Perform skills, leaving very little room for much else. Three of the biggest offenders are Core, the remaining two are actually very powerful and should be taken if allowed, and are a staple of Bardic optimization.

You're going to take 6 ranks of Dance to qualify for Snowflake Wardance and then never touch it again. That's one level's worth of points if you do it as a lump sum, or three levels if you start it at max and raise it normally. It's a cost, yes, but it's a bearable one if think the benefits are worth it. Song of the Heart and Song of the White Raven do not actually specify Perform (Song); they just refer to Bardic Music, which can be done with almsot any Perform technique that makes audible sounds (Tapdance or Dancing-With-Bells-On would arguably qualify as well as meeting the Snowflake Wardance requirements, although you might have to shout "Hey look at me I'm dancing!" when you start if your DM is a particular hardass about requiring something verbal.) Words of Creation does require a verbal performance for the fact that you can't very well speak the Words through your drum, but it's also the least likely to be used in a practical character because of the hassle of managing an Exalted feat.

The magic items with specific Perform requirements *are* annoying, but they're not really essential pieces of optimization (IIRC, most of the magical lutes/citherns/guitars/etc downright suck.) You can do fine playing a small drum in one hand, carrying your sword in the other, and singing out your spell components.

Signmaker
2009-08-27, 05:21 AM
look at me I'm dancing!


I can feel the dancing beat! /childrenstvshow

Totally Guy
2009-08-27, 06:09 AM
I always figured you just used perform when the DM said that "plot point X happens in 3 months. What do you guys do?" Answer: "I perform everyday. So thats 90d6; average of 720 gold that I use on these potions we require for plot point X."


FYI, a level 1 adventurer can level-grind up to 20th in 2 months. In 2 months, this Bard has the equivalent of 30d6gp. The 20th level adventurer has a standard WBL of 760,000gp, 20 levels worth of class features, 7 or more feats, and who knows how many artifacts or magic items

DM: Plot point X happens in 3 months. What will you do?
Me: I grind levels for 2 months on level appropriate encounters gaining wealth and experience as I do so. I'm going to average the gold by WBL.:smalltongue:

The Rose Dragon
2009-08-27, 06:34 AM
You cannot sing while casting a Bard spell because only a few Bard spells lack a Verbal component (one or two, and even those are situational)

By RAW, all Bard spells have Verbal components. Even those spells that don't have them when sorcerers and wizards cast them.

Farlion
2009-08-27, 07:16 AM
Could this be the explanation, why so little adventuring bards exist?

They're just too smart to take the high risk way of earning money.

So actually, adventuring bards, are the stupid ones. BEWARE!



If money and wealth is the only reason you adventure, then most adventurers will never get past level 4 or 5 (unless your goal is to just amass riches and never take the time to spend them).

Mostly adventurers have some other type of motivation. Any player who sais:"Well I'm a mercenary, I do the adventuring for money" will at some point hear from me:"Well, the mercenary now just earned 100g and looted a +1 longsword, he wont be adventuring with us until he spent all or most of it". (Which, can go quite fast, if you buy the right stuff ;-)

Cheers,
Farlion

shadow_archmagi
2009-08-27, 07:32 AM
So, I have a player who wants to be a bard.

Right now, he's sixth level, and will probably climb from there.

How much gold should perform earn him?

kamikasei
2009-08-27, 07:42 AM
I think people have misunderstood the OP. He's not saying "look, bards can make money easily!" He's saying "look, even a highly skilled bard* who's so good that on his best days extraplanar beings take notice and patronize him makes a pittance compared to an adventurer - after seven solid weeks of rolling maximums for gold, he's only just equalled a single first level reward."

This is true. Adventuring is absurdly high-yield. People risk their lives on epic quests and get ludicrous rewards as a result (though often in the form of hard-to-liquidize assets that they're better off holding on to, so they're not quite rolling in gold to the extent WBL suggests).

However. Note that the Perform skill is not necessarily going to be that bard's real source of income. Someone that gifted and famous isn't going to be busking on the streets for his supper. Rather, while he may make small amounts of money for his actual peformances, the rest of the time he's having his excellent accomodation and exquisite meals all taken care of by his patrons and fans, gets to spend his time at the best parties and seduce the most nubile noblepersons, etc. Basically, the attendent perks that come with being able to hit those DC 25 checks readily are not all encompassed by the 1d6 gp/day the checks directly yield.

*Just how skilled?
Assume that yon bard is taking 10 to hit DC 25 consistently. That assumes he has a +15 Perform check. We'll go for a reasonable 'normal' character rather than a notably exceptional one, so say he starts with 15 Cha, and has a masterwork instrument. That's a +4 right there, which means we have to account for +11 via levels. If he's level 6 he has 9 ranks in the skill and one stat increase to bring his Cha up to 16 for an extra +1, and can afford a cloak of charisma +2 - he's hit his +15 (and note that this is assuming a masterwork instrument, which somewhat limits the Perform skills he can use). So we're talking about a particularly charismatic person with excellent and expensive equipment who's at the peak of human achievement.

His level can probably be brought down a bit if he's willing to employ Skill Focus, circlets of persuasion and so on.


How much gold should perform earn him?

Do you want him to be spending all his time performing for cash instead of adventuring? I'd be inclined to leave the gold rewards right where they are but waive his living costs and give him connections, contacts and influence among the people competing to show off their good taste by hiring him for their parties. You can give him larger lump-sum payments if you want to represent a noble hiring him exclusively. Bear in mind though that a vagabond minstrel isn't going to be all that prestigious or wealthy simply for his performing no matter how popular he may be.

Telonius
2009-08-27, 07:42 AM
The real trick to things like this isn't perform, it's diplomacy.

"Hello there, King of Town. I'm Singer McBardson, famous Bard adventurer. I happen to be passing through at the moment, but I might be persuaded to take a day or two off and give a performance that you'll be telling your grandchildren about. No offense to Expert3 royal minstrel over there, but he's just a cut above street performer. Though if he wants to, I'd be happy to have him open for me. I'm willing to cut you a deal: (level x 1000) gold. Normally I charge (level x 2000), but since this is a limited engagement, I can cut you a deal. What do you say?"

Calmar
2009-08-27, 08:09 AM
Elvis might disagree on the first point. Depending on the threat level of mummies.

Damn, I had the same idea when reading Face Of Evil's post. :smallbiggrin:

kamikasei
2009-08-27, 08:24 AM
ALSO.

Bear in mind that adventurers very quickly start to deal in extremely silly amounts of money. 1d6 gp is a lot of cash given living expenses and normal incomes. Someone with more wealth than a labourer or middle-class professional is most likely to want to pay in kind rather than doling out sacks of coins that they just don't have.

(Minimum wage is 1-3 silver a day depending on training. While trained labourers' wages "may be much higher", it seems reasonable to say they'll rarely be higher than 10 times minimum wage. So a bard averaging 3.5gp a day is earning as much as someone on the equivalent of a five-digit salary. Unfortunately I can't find the rules for "living expenses" - maybe they're in the PHB2 or something rather than the SRD - but even then those are targeted at adventuers who live on the road, effectively sleeping in hotels and dining in restaurants any time they pay for such services, so considerably higher than what most people spend day-to-day.)

Blackfang108
2009-08-27, 08:40 AM
Bono will have a word with you now.

Really? Bono?

In a world with Jerry Garcia, Ronnie James Dio, Jim Morrison, Keith Richards(how else is he still alive?), Elvis, and thousands more, you choose Bono?

EDIT: the Cost of Living is in the DMG, I believe.

Keshay
2009-08-27, 09:05 AM
Really? Bono?

In a world with Jerry Garcia, Ronnie James Dio, Jim Morrison, Keith Richards(how else is he still alive?), Elvis, and thousands more, you choose Bono?

Probably because Bono is the kind of egoist who grooms his reputation as a humanatarian and never lets anyone forget how much he's done for the less fortunate.

he thinks he's saving the world, he thinks he's god, and he probably does have real estate equaling the size of a small kingdom.

As for how much a level 6 Bard should make from perform? I refer you to the SRD, a wonderful place to start looking for whatever answers to questions you may have about D&D:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/perform.htm

Level 6 Bard should have 9 ranks in Perform, minimum 17 Charisma, a masterwork instrument, and Skill Focus: Perform so, d20+9+3+2+3= a 27 average Perform check, that gets you your 1d6 gp/day.

kamikasei
2009-08-27, 09:09 AM
As for how much a level 6 Bard should make from perform? I refer you to the SRD, a wonderful place to start looking for whatever answers to questions you may have about D&D:

Uh... those are exactly the rules the OP referred to in his first post, so when he subsequently asks "how much should he make?" he is presumably not looking for a by-the-book answer. (Incidentally, is it conventional wisdom now that all bards should take Skill Focus? I'd not heard it.)

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-27, 09:16 AM
By RAW, all Bard spells have Verbal components. Even those spells that don't have them when sorcerers and wizards cast them.

There's a Bard-only spell in the Spell Compendium that has only a Somatic component. Apparently, WotC decided to override that rule or forgot it existed.


Don't the effects of bard song last for a few rounds after you stop playing? Is lingering song a 3.5 feat, or 3.0 only? Surely there's a way to sing and cast on alternate rounds.

There's the Crystal Echo Blade from the MiC, and Lingering Song should be in CAdv.


Bono will have a word with you now.

Trey Parker and Matt Stone beat him to the punchline.

LibraryOgre
2009-08-27, 09:17 AM
On the other hand, no musician ever saved the world, built their own kingdom or ascended to godhood.

How about army? (http://www.kissonline.com/)

I'll also point out that Perform has a lot better ROI than other work-skills. Assuming a 7 day week:

Craft of 25: Make 12 gold, 5 silver, per week.
Profession of 25: 12 gold, 5 silver, per week.
Perform of 25: 7D6 gold per week, for an average of 24 gold, 5 silver.

If you go with Faerunian rides, the discrepancy gets even bigger, with Craft and Profession remaining the same, and Perform going up to an average of 35 per week.

A street musician with a +1 Charisma and max ranks at 1st level in Perform will make 3 gold, 8 silver, and 5 copper per week, on average for a 7 day week by taking 10; if they have a +3 stat and Skill Focus*, it goes up to 11 gold, 5 silver, 5 copper. By taking 10.
A craftsman or professional, with the same +1 in relevant stat, will make 7 gold, 5 silver. If they have a +3 and skill focus*, however, they make only 10 gold.

So, at the very low ends (with few bonuses and 1st or 2nd level), musicians are worse off than craftsmen and professionals. Once you get into the 3rd level or higher range, though, musicians start doing better than an equal leveled craftsman.

*Before you complain how sub-optimal Skill focus is, keep in mind that, for a person who makes their living by that skill, it is QUITE optimal. For a craftsman or professional, it means an extra gold and a half per week. Sure, if Fighty McFighterson needs to pick between Power Attack and Skill Focus: Blacksmith, he should take Power Attack every time. If his dad, Smithy Smitharm, needs to pick between the two, he should be going for the skill focus, because power attack does nothing for him, week to week.

Epinephrine
2009-08-27, 10:17 AM
Don't the effects of bard song last for a few rounds after you stop playing? Is lingering song a 3.5 feat, or 3.0 only? Surely there's a way to sing and cast on alternate rounds.

There are ways to sing and cast in the same round. One of them is to play Pathfinder (since they fixed that bit), another is to take the D&D 3.5 feat Melodic Casting (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Melodic_Casting,).

Irreverent Fool
2009-08-27, 10:31 AM
That's the amount of gold the perfomer will make by simply running around in the streets performing... you know... as a street performer. I think it's pretty impressive.

Now, such a character may get recruited to sing or dance or write poetry for a wealthy noble patron and get paid a very substantial salary. While it still won't match the income of an adventurer, I think it is safe to assume that the character could be quite comfortable.

obnoxious
sig

Keshay
2009-08-27, 10:39 AM
Uh... those are exactly the rules the OP referred to in his first post, so when he subsequently asks "how much should he make?" he is presumably not looking for a by-the-book answer. (Incidentally, is it conventional wisdom now that all bards should take Skill Focus? I'd not heard it.)

I'd have thought the irony of the response would have been apparent, but then again, irony as with other types of verbal inflections do not translate well across boards to all people.

And yes, if I were making a character for the sole purpose of making money off a skill I would take Skill focus in said skill. Its not that much of a mystery. In no way, shape or form was I suggesting that all bards needed to take Skill focus in perform, indeed it would be counterproductive since many bards have multiple perform skills and would therefore need to take a seperate feat for each. The exception, imo, would be if the bard were a vocalist, since they would be deprived of the potential +2 masterwork bonus, but again that is my opinion.

Kylarra
2009-08-27, 10:43 AM
I'd have thought the irony of the response would have been apparent, but then again, irony as with other types of verbal inflections do not translate well across boards to all people.

And yes, if I were making a character for the sole purpose of making money off a skill I would take Skill focus in said skill. Its not that much of a mystery. In no way, shape or form was I suggesting that all bards needed to take Skill focus in perform, indeed it would be counterproductive since many bards have multiple perform skills and would therefore need to take a seperate feat for each. The exception, imo, would be if the bard were a vocalist, since they would be deprived of the potential +2 masterwork bonus, but again that is my opinion.Maybe you have a masterwork uh... "microphone". :smalltongue:

Starbuck_II
2009-08-27, 10:50 AM
There are ways to sing and cast in the same round. One of them is to play Pathfinder (since they fixed that bit), another is to take the D&D 3.5 feat Melodic Casting (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Melodic_Casting,).
In 3.5:
If you plan on playing an instrument: cast Animate Instrument (2nd level spell).
It says it allows you to play and cast spells (example Inspire Courage it gives).

LibraryOgre
2009-08-27, 11:01 AM
Maybe you have a masterwork uh... "microphone". :smalltongue:

88. My bard does not get a bonus to perform if she is obviously not wearing anything under her tabard.

shadow_archmagi
2009-08-27, 11:22 AM
That's the amount of gold the perfomer will make by simply running around in the streets performing... you know... as a street performer. I think it's pretty impressive.


I guess, now that I think about it, a crowd of 80 people all tossing 3-9 copper pieces does tend to add up to around 1d6 gold.



In addition to the random street-monkeys tossing pennies, the very rich should occasionally stop by and give them large sacks of cash/let them live in nice houses/towers of hats


What would be a good value for that? Perhaps around 10% of what the rest of the player makes otherwise in spendable/sellable goods?

Kylarra
2009-08-27, 11:24 AM
88. My bard does not get a bonus to perform if she is obviously not wearing anything under her tabard.

I love that list.

Deme
2009-08-27, 11:51 AM
Fur-worm!?!?!?!??!
[/video game reference]

I'd agree with the people who say the real benefits are the perks, not the pay. That, and when did any non-adventuring money-based rule in 3.5 make any sense at all?

(Did that add anything to this discussion? Well, it added an Azure Dreams reference, and I rarely want more than that.)

Kami2awa
2009-08-27, 12:40 PM
On the other hand, no musician ever saved the world, built their own kingdom or ascended to godhood.

Bob Geldof is getting there.

chiasaur11
2009-08-27, 01:00 PM
And who was it who made the world in love again, with people marching hand in hand?

The Ocean levels were rising up. A brand new record, for 1990, They Might be Giants's brand new album Flood.

Tengu_temp
2009-08-27, 01:09 PM
Sure, if Fighty McFighterson needs to pick between Power Attack and Skill Focus: Blacksmith, he should take Power Attack every time. If his dad, Smithy Smitharm, needs to pick between the two, he should be going for the skill focus, because power attack does nothing for him, week to week.

Why does Fighty McFighterson have a different last name than his father?

chiasaur11
2009-08-27, 01:15 PM
Why does Fighty McFighterson have a different last name than his father?

Shame.

And heaping helpings of it.

Deepblue706
2009-08-27, 01:16 PM
So, apparently, a DC 25 check is 1d6 gold PER DAY.

:-/

That means after seven weeks of hitting DC 25, and only rolling 6's, a skilled bard is able to equal the treasure a single first-level adventurer earns on his first day of combat.

While the adventurer has earned his money by killing, say, a pair of crippled elderly kobolds, the bard is so talented that he could easily be recruited by the ruling nobility, and if he improves much more, could easily attract the attention of extraplanar creatures.

This does not seem fair.

I think the idea is that you can do this sort of stuff on your day off. D&D is about adventuring, and sometimes what you do between adventuring.

If at level 1 the Wizard needs to spend time to rest and prepare more spells, but everyone else is okay, the Bard might start gathering some gold to replenish mundane supplies.

This continues to be useful at higher levels because while people might need time to recover from ability damage, or the wizard wants time to scribe scrolls, the Bard can ask for aid from his patrons.

While I think it has great use, I don't believe PCs are intended are supposed to be doing this instead of adventuring. If they're really not adventuring, then they're not really playing the game, and may as well just retire the character because playing further is likely meaningless.

Xenogears
2009-08-27, 01:21 PM
Why does Fighty McFighterson have a different last name than his father?

Clearly he was given his mothers last name.

AstralFire
2009-08-27, 01:25 PM
Why does Fighty McFighterson have a different last name than his father?

Stage nam-AGH YOUR NEW AVATAR IS FREAKY

Get it to stop looking at me!

technophile
2009-08-27, 01:30 PM
DM: Plot point X happens in 3 months. What will you do?
Me: I grind levels for 2 months on level appropriate encounters gaining wealth and experience as I do so. I'm going to average the gold by WBL.:smalltongue:
Sadly, because there is a negative consequence to failure, you cannot take 20 on adventuring. :smallwink:

Kylarra
2009-08-27, 01:38 PM
Sadly, because there is a negative consequence to failure, you cannot take 20 on adventuring. :smallwink:

You rolled a 1 on your adventuring check, you're dead now.

Myshlaevsky
2009-08-27, 01:39 PM
You rolled a 1 on your adventuring check, you're dead now.

This is basically the game we play, we just like rolling more than 1 dice. :smalltongue:

LibraryOgre
2009-08-27, 07:03 PM
Why does Fighty McFighterson have a different last name than his father?

Vocatanomic society.

Glyde
2009-08-27, 07:05 PM
Stage nam-AGH YOUR NEW AVATAR IS FREAKY

Get it to stop looking at me!



GABABAHAHAHAHA It's lelouch with an upsidedown frown D:



Anyway. I might as well jump in here... There's a homebrew-y variant bard out there with an ability that uses a perform check instead of an attack roll and expends a usage of bardic music. I don't have the details or a reference anywhere, but... Yeah. That's one reason to pump it up.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-27, 10:37 PM
GABABAHAHAHAHA It's lelouch with an upsidedown frown D:



Anyway. I might as well jump in here... There's a homebrew-y variant bard out there with an ability that uses a perform check instead of an attack roll and expends a usage of bardic music. I don't have the details or a reference anywhere, but... Yeah. That's one reason to pump it up.

Hello broken! Skill checks are the easiest things to boost in this game. Substituting an attack roll for a skill check? That's like getting Full BAB+3+Cha+magic items+Weapon enhancement.

Randel
2009-08-28, 01:53 AM
The perform check lets you get money so you have an excuse as to how your character got their money when you start the game.

Bard: My long and tragic backstory is one of sorrow and lost dreams. My poor dog died when I was eight years old and my brother always blamed me. Then tragedy struck again when disease ravaged our village and we were forced to move away for safety. On the road my dear mother passed away in a pool of blood and we were soon set upon by goblins who killed my father and brother. I was kept as a slave for weeks until one day I found my captors dead in a bloody mess of entrails and I managed to escape with only the clothes on my back and crude dagger. Now I am a young man of sixteen who must now work to rid the world of evil.

Bystander: Oh yeah? If you escaped with just the clothes on your back then how come you've got over a hundred gold to spend on fancy instruments and weapons and stuff?

Bard: Skill Focus in Perform(surgery)

Bystander: :smalleek:

Bard: I've got a natural talent for it. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOtMizMQ6oM)

LibraryOgre
2009-08-28, 03:23 AM
Bard: I've got a natural talent for it. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOtMizMQ6oM)

Bards make everything better.