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*.*.*.*
2009-08-26, 09:59 PM
I'm starting off in a level 1 campaign and I finally decided what I wanna play! I wanna make a Daring Outlaw build. The character should be a fairly competent melee combatant as well as a good SA-er, I can ignore most of my skill monkey duties because of our bard.



All 3.5 and 3.0 stuff is good, as well as 3rd party
No errata is used(unless I deem that it helps me)
No undead or Aberrations, but we completely ignore HD when choosing races(:smallcool: Yeah, you heard that right)
ToB is banned :smallmad:

Kallisti
2009-08-26, 10:10 PM
Not that ignoring HD matters much starting off at level one.

I recommend taking a few of the Martial Study feats or splashing a level or two of swordsage at higher level. Shadow Hand has some great stuff, and so do Diamond Mind and sometimes Tiger Claw.

Definitely look into the Luck feats and Ambush feats in the Complete Scoundrel.

Daring Outlaw, you say? Start out in Swashbuckler at level 1, go rogue from there until you get the 2d6 sneak attack minimum for Daring Outlaw, then go Swashbuckler again. For a PrC, a few levels of Duelist can reinforce a lot of your swashbuckler powers.

sadi
2009-08-26, 10:11 PM
I"m assuming he's asking for character builds, and I think he means that racial hd don't matter for level adjustment, of course he could also mean that you can be any race and they have 0 racial hd. It is just slightly important to distinguish which.

*.*.*.*
2009-08-26, 10:12 PM
Not that ignoring HD matters much starting off at level one.

*shrug*

I won't disagree there


In fact, I'd like to play human, but I guessed you guys should know~


I"m assuming he's asking for character builds, and I think he means that racial hd don't matter for level adjustment, of course he could also mean that you can be any race and they have 0 racial hd. It is just slightly important do distinguish which.

The 1st one :smallbiggrin:

Kallisti
2009-08-26, 10:18 PM
Which makes racial hit dice desirable. Hey, cool! Free saves, feats, and HD. But level adjustment still counts, right? SO unless there are monsters out there with a listed LA of +0 and more than 1 HD, it doesn't matter.

Level adjustment does still count, right? If not, go Paragon Multi-Headed Psuedonatural LeShay:smallbiggrin:

lsfreak
2009-08-26, 10:19 PM
If that means you're ignoring LA too, be a pixie rogue3/swash15/swordsage2 (for Assassin's Stance and Shadow Blade feat). Grab Craven from Champions of Ruin. Full sneak attack FOREVERZ (that is until your DM starts putting see invisibility on everything).

EDIT: Nevermind then :smalltongue:

*.*.*.*
2009-08-26, 10:20 PM
Level adjustment does still count, right?

Yep, though I can reduce it considerably by taking some stuff away. Definitely when it comes to physical stats(DM doesn't realize the power of casters)


Ah crap! I knew I forgot to edit something in the OP! <.< My DM banned ToB

sadi
2009-08-26, 10:25 PM
I don't know many races that don't have level adjustments besides racial hit die, except like true dragons, who don't have level adjustments since they're not designed to be player characters.

Since you said level 1 does that mean, you're stuck with +1 level adjustment and playing without a class, or you can have any level adjustment and 1 class level?

*.*.*.*
2009-08-26, 10:27 PM
I don't know many races that don't have level adjustments besides racial hit die, except like true dragons, who don't have level adjustments since they're not designed to be player characters.

Like I said, I added that part for completeness. Going human is best since the DM is really tired of me stacking templates and such




Since you said level 1 does that mean, you're stuck with +1 level adjustment and playing without a class,

This^

The Glyphstone
2009-08-26, 10:30 PM
Yep, though I can reduce it considerably by taking some stuff away. Definitely when it comes to physical stats(DM doesn't realize the power of casters)


Ah crap! I knew I forgot to edit something in the OP! <.< My DM banned ToB


Are you upset about this? Did he think it is 'too anime'? If so, join the Secret Brotherhood of ToB Enthusiasts, showing your devotion to melee's best sourcebook by Calling Your Attacks and making up strange names for them no matter your class.

*.*.*.*
2009-08-26, 10:33 PM
Did he think it is 'too anime'

He is a HUGE anime fan, his problem is that it is 'overpowered' :smallsigh:

sadi
2009-08-26, 10:35 PM
I'm sure there are better, but the best +1 la if you're getting the racial hd for free that i can think of off hand is bugbear. 3 hd +4 s +2d +2co for -2 cha and the +3 nat armor.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bugbear.htm

Never actually played a swashbuckler, but from what I've read it's a 3 level dip to get the +int to weapon damage. If you use the multiclass xp thing, bugbear gives you rogue as that.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-26, 10:37 PM
Question: Is it a PbP campaign? (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5223.msg183304#msg183304)

Kallisti
2009-08-26, 10:37 PM
He is a HUGE anime fan, his problem is that it is 'overpowered' :smallsigh:

Then join the (Not So) Secret Brotherhood of Those Who Are Sick to Death of People Thinking ToB is Overpowered When A Purely Core Wizard Can Beat a Core+ToB Martial Character Every Time From Level Four Onwards, or (NS)SBTWASDPTToBOWAPCWCBAC+ToBMCETFLFO.

Random832
2009-08-26, 10:38 PM
He is a HUGE anime fan, his problem is that it is 'overpowered' :smallsigh:

i.e. his underestimation of casters cuts the other way, leading to "Melee characters can't have nice things"

Start doing accounting of how much damage the fighter does vs how much the wizard [or cleric or whatever] does - anything the fighter does that would have missed or done less damage but for buffs on him and/or debuffs on the enemies... well, that goes in the wizard's column.

The Glyphstone
2009-08-26, 10:38 PM
He is a HUGE anime fan, his problem is that it is 'overpowered' :smallsigh:

So play a Frenzied Berzerker and Shock Trooper every encounter into bloody smears?

*.*.*.*
2009-08-26, 10:44 PM
i.e. his underestimation of casters cuts the other way, leading to "Melee characters can't have nice things"Yep



Start doing accounting of how much damage the fighter does vs how much the wizard [or cleric or whatever] does - anything the fighter does that would have missed or done less damage but for buffs on him and/or debuffs on the enemies... well, that goes in the wizard's column.

<.< and if the Cleric is an idiot?


So play a Frenzied Berzerker and Shock Trooper every encounter into bloody smears?

I made a charger in a campaign for another DM we play under, so he claims we will probably fight completely in dungeons to negate charging antics

The Glyphstone
2009-08-26, 10:45 PM
I'd love to see a dungeon made completely of 5ft. zigzags and angles so that there was never 10ft. of straight distance between two points - cause that's the only way you can build a dungeon to negate 'charging antics', and it'd be hilarious.

*.*.*.*
2009-08-26, 10:48 PM
I'd love to see a dungeon made completely of 5ft. zigzags and angles so that there was never 10ft. of straight distance between two points - cause that's the only way you can build a dungeon to negate 'charging antics', and it'd be hilarious.

Seriously~

I'd rather not though, my DM was probably hesitant to even let me play(as he didn't in his last campaign) as my group knows I'm the best at min/max

sadi
2009-08-26, 10:51 PM
I'd love to see a dungeon made completely of 5ft. zigzags and angles so that there was never 10ft. of straight distance between two points - cause that's the only way you can build a dungeon to negate 'charging antics', and it'd be hilarious.

Enough random garbage/bones/whatever scattered around the floor prevents charging. Of course what's enough to slow movement is determined by the guy behind the screen.

The Glyphstone
2009-08-26, 10:54 PM
Enough random garbage/bones/whatever scattered around the floor prevents charging. Of course what's enough to slow movement is determined by the guy behind the screen.

I was going to say 'there's a stance in ToB that ignores difficult terrain'....but melee can't have nice things.

Still, a dungeon where every square inch was covered in enough debris to count as difficult terrain would be almost as hilarious as the 5-ft corner tunnels of doom.

sadi
2009-08-26, 11:00 PM
Seriously~

I'd rather not though, my DM was probably hesitant to even let me play(as he didn't in his last campaign) as my group knows I'm the best at min/max

Then you have several options, don't play, play something that's too optimized for his taste and get random killed/booted, or play something that is not optimized.

Wings of Peace
2009-08-26, 11:02 PM
Two words. Black. Ethergaunt.

*.*.*.*
2009-08-26, 11:04 PM
Then you have several options, don't play, play something that's too optimized for his taste and get random killed/booted, or play something that is not optimized.

As long as my damage isn't charger high, I don't see him having a problem with it. The guy wanted me to make a diplomancer(as he knows I hate them), but I refused.

Come on guys, I just need some feat/prc suggestions~


Two words. Black. Ethergaunt.

:smallwink: I already showed him how retarded ignoring racial HD is, this was the example.


He didn't listen:smallfrown:

The Glyphstone
2009-08-26, 11:07 PM
As long as my damage isn't charger high, I don't see him having a problem with it. The guy wanted me to make a diplomancer(as he knows I hate them), but I refused.

Come on guys, I just need some feat/prc suggestions~



:smallwink: I already showed him how retarded ignoring racial HD is, this was the example.


He didn't listen:smallfrown:


Then do it. Do it, by the love of all that is unbalanced and cheesy, do it.



Or...if you want a sneak attacker, make sure you get Craven from Heroes of Horror. Add your level to all sneak attack damage in exchange for -2 to fear effects.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-26, 11:10 PM
As long as my damage isn't charger high, I don't see him having a problem with it. The guy wanted me to make a diplomancer(as he knows I hate them), but I refused.

Come on guys, I just need some feat/prc suggestions~



:smallwink: I already showed him how retarded ignoring racial HD is, this was the example.


He didn't listen:smallfrown:

Don't play damage dealers then. Play GOD. Or CoDzilla. Those two are broken enough. Pit yourself against a "cohort" who happens to be capable of dishing out 400 damage/round on a charge. Then show him that GOD and CoDzilla thrash such builds.

Wings of Peace
2009-08-26, 11:12 PM
As long as my damage isn't charger high, I don't see him having a problem with it. The guy wanted me to make a diplomancer(as he knows I hate them), but I refused.

Come on guys, I just need some feat/prc suggestions~



:smallwink: I already showed him how retarded ignoring racial HD is, this was the example.


He didn't listen:smallfrown:

Ahahahahahahahahahahahaha! *Whipes away a tear*

On a more serious note this offfers you some very serious int synergy potential. Iaijutsu Master with a gnome razor comes to mind. I could also see good potential with a race that offers dimension door SLAs and Telflammar Shadowlord.

The Glyphstone
2009-08-26, 11:15 PM
Don't play damage dealers then. Play GOD. Or CoDzilla. Those two are broken enough. Pit yourself against a "cohort" who happens to be capable of dishing out 400 damage/round on a charge. Then show him that GOD and CoDzilla thrash such builds.

GOD is really hard to build at level 1. CoDzilla is easier, though it requires specific domains and only has a couple of useful spells worth Persisting.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-26, 11:16 PM
GOD is really hard to build at level 1. CoDzilla is easier, though it requires specific domains and only has a couple of useful spells worth Persisting.

Level 1 GOD is Precocious Apprentice+Focused Specialist+Practiced Spellcaster. 2nd level spells, so you drop Glitterdust when the s*** hits the fan.

*.*.*.*
2009-08-26, 11:17 PM
Don't play damage dealers then. Play GOD. Or CoDzilla. Those two are broken enough. Pit yourself against a "cohort" who happens to be capable of dishing out 400 damage/round on a charge. Then show him that GOD and CoDzilla thrash such builds.

Actually, I plan to show him GOD in a one-on-one against a barb he made. The guy mocked Treantmonk's guide and called wizards a "waste of space". Well, as any one who know the raw power of a wizard would do, I called him out on it by saying a wizard could beat any melee character.


Needless to say, My craft contingent Timestop(which he said was a useless spell) is going to show him the error of his ways.



<.< I don't like playing spellcasters at lower levels

Wings of Peace
2009-08-26, 11:18 PM
We're forgetting the real potential here Sinfire. We've got access to nature's theurge class now. The Phaerim CoDzilla. Hell Phaerim anything. Could even gish easy since the youngest Phaerim are tiny and have the lowest LA.

lsfreak
2009-08-26, 11:20 PM
Enough random garbage/bones/whatever scattered around the floor prevents charging. Of course what's enough to slow movement is determined by the guy behind the screen.

Hint: You can jump as a charge.

If he thinks ToB is overpowered, by suggestion would be a pure-core caster using no questionable tactics or tricky things. Just standard, non-broken batman stuff - glitterdust, web, haste, greater invisibility. Keep track of how much damage the melee do versus how much damage the melee do only because you buffed/debuffed.

For a Daring Outlaw then, basic build is just Rogue3/Swash17. You can fill in with things like Guild Thief (FRCS) or Nightsong Enforcer (CAd) for more sneak attack goodness. Grab Craven (Champions of Ruin) at level 6 and Darkstalker (Lords of Madness) whenever you have room. Pick up Penetrating Strike ACF from Dungeonscape, and if you really need trapsense grab it from a dip somewhere else.

spamoo
2009-08-26, 11:27 PM
First of all, do you realize that you could potentially advance any humanoid race to 20HD just to get crazy good shenanigans?

Secondly, just a core race, probably halfling or elf, would be best for this. The dex bonus helps and you're not an abomination to all of the civilized species. As a Daring outlaw, you'll probably have to be the party (or your own) face at some point. Monsters generally aren't the best in that aspect.


Then join the (Not So) Secret Brotherhood of Those Who Are Sick to Death of People Thinking ToB is Overpowered When A Purely Core Wizard Can Beat a Core+ToB Martial Character Every Time From Level Four Onwards, or (NS)SBTWASDPTToBOWAPCWCBAC+ToBMCETFLFO.

Finally, can I sig this awesomeness? Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaase?

The Glyphstone
2009-08-26, 11:56 PM
Actually, I plan to show him GOD in a one-on-one against a barb he made. The guy mocked Treantmonk's guide and called wizards a "waste of space". Well, as any one who know the raw power of a wizard would do, I called him out on it by saying a wizard could beat any melee character.


Needless to say, My craft contingent Timestop(which he said was a useless spell) is going to show him the error of his ways.



<.< I don't like playing spellcasters at lower levels

Don't stop there. As a 20th level wizard, not even a sorcerer, you can have multiple combos prepared. Kill him with Timestop+Forcecage+Cloudkill. Then offer to reset the battle with the exact same characters just in case it was 'lucky' or whatever BS he claims. Then kill him again with a couple of Metamagiced Enervations. Reset. Kill him by going invisible and pounding him with direct damage spells. Reset. Shapechange into something big and nasty, apply a couple of self-buffs, and kill him in melee combat. Then show him that everything you did was with the same character and you didn't have to change your spell list, and watch him splutter.

sadi
2009-08-27, 12:59 AM
Hint: You can jump as a charge.



Works as long as you have 10 ft jump, or have a ring of improved jumping, the standing jump doubles your dc for jump checks. IF you have to cover 20 ft, that's a dc 40 check.

Mongoose87
2009-08-27, 01:07 AM
Don't stop there. As a 20th level wizard, not even a sorcerer, you can have multiple combos prepared. Kill him with Timestop+Forcecage+Cloudkill. Then offer to reset the battle with the exact same characters just in case it was 'lucky' or whatever BS he claims. Then kill him again with a couple of Metamagiced Enervations. Reset. Kill him by going invisible and pounding him with direct damage spells. Reset. Shapechange into something big and nasty, apply a couple of self-buffs, and kill him in melee combat. Then show him that everything you did was with the same character and you didn't have to change your spell list, and watch him splutter.

Don't forget to cast fly one time and just kill him with a wand of magic missile. How embarrassing.

Random832
2009-08-27, 05:18 AM
Still, a dungeon where every square inch was covered in enough debris to count as difficult terrain would be almost as hilarious as the 5-ft corner tunnels of doom.

There is a word for a dungeon where every square inch is covered in enough, ah, "debris" to count as difficult terrain.

It's called a sewer.


First of all, do you realize that you could potentially advance any humanoid race to 20HD just to get crazy good shenanigans?

What humanoid race is actually permitted to be advanced by HD?

There's also a question of whether you're getting the RHD "for free" (you're probably still limited to the number in the creature entry), or whether you're also supposed to drop the HD themselves and are in effect playing "underdeveloped" version of the race.

Still nothing to sneeze at, because e.g. the Ogre's +10 STR is theoretically paid for by taking on those HD (That and Ethergaunt spellcasting), so even if you're a squishy no-hitdice version, you still have half the fun stuff that comes with playing a RHD race.

Saph
2009-08-27, 05:44 AM
*sigh* Look, you guys, could you stop going over the same ToB/Wizards/spells/whatever stuff in every thread? The guy just asked for Daring Outlaw builds. I mean, he seems to be okay with the derailing, but still, he did ask an actual question.


Come on guys, I just need some feat/prc suggestions~

Okay, first off, since you're starting at level 1, you have to decide whether you want to go Swashbuckler or Rogue for your first level. Swash will give you a starting HP of 10, Rogue a starting HP of 6, but Rogue will give you a lot more skill points.

Assuming high-average HP and an Int 14 Con 14 human, here's the difference at level 2:

Swash1/Rogue1: 18 HP, 39 skill points.
Rogue1/Swash1: 16 HP, 51 skill points.

Me, I'd rather have 12 skill points than 2 hit points, but it does mean a slower start, as you get no Weapon Finesse until level 2. Your choice.

For stats, Dex is your most important, followed by Int and Con, then Strength, then Wisdom and Charisma.

For feats, EWP (Spiked Chain) is a good idea. It's finesseable, and lets you sneak attack with reach. Unfortunately you won't be able to trip effectively since you're focusing on Dex rather than Strength.

The natural other feats to go for would be the ToB Shadow Hand line, capping with Shadow Blade and Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance), but since that's out you'll have to look elsewhere. Craven is possible but not very exciting at low levels. Improved Initiative is always good for a rogue - more sneak attacks. Staggering Strike is very good, but you won't be able to get it until level 9. So my suggestion would be something like:

Level 1: Swash. Feats: EWP (Spiked Chain), Improved Initiative.
Level 2: Rogue.
Level 3: Swash. Feats: Craven.
Level 4: Rogue.
Level 5: Rogue. ACF: Penetrating Strike.
Level 6: Swash. Feats: Daring Outlaw.
Level 7: Swash.
Level 8: Swash.
Level 9: Swash. Feats: Staggering Strike.

Take the Penetrating Strike ACF from Dungeonscape to replace Trap Sense. It allows you to sneak attack unsneakattackable things as long as you flank them (less damage, though). You might want to fit in a fourth Rogue level at some point for Uncanny Dodge, too.

From that point just keep taking Swashbuckler levels to keep your BAB and Sneak Attack high. Don't bother with PrCs as that negates the whole point of Daring Outlaw.

You'll want light armour, obviously (mithral shirt is the standard) and keep your Tumble skill maxed out, as well as 5 ranks in Jump for the synergy bonus, so that you can move around to get sneak attacks.

There, hope that helps.

- Saph

Farlion
2009-08-27, 05:48 AM
Here my suggestion:

male human Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 6

Rogue 1 (1): Sneak Attack +1d6, Trapfinding, Combat expertise, Imp. Feint; (8+Int)*4 skills, 6 hp
Swashbuckler 1 (2): Weapon Finesse (Rapier), 4+Int skills, d10 hp
Swashbuckler 2 (3): Grace +1, Imp. Disarm, 4+Int skills, d10 hp
Rogue 2 (4): Evasion, +1 Dex, 8+Int skills, d6hp
Rogue 3 (5): Sneak Attack +2d6, Trapsense +1
Swashbuckler 3 (6): Insightful strike, Daring outlaw, 4+Int skills, d10 hp
Swashbuckler 4 (7): 4+Int skills, d10 hp
Swashbuckler 5 (8): +1 Dex, Dodge +1, 4+Int skills, d10 hp
Rogue 4 (9): Uncanny Dodge, Telling Blow, 8+Int skills, d6 hp
Swashbuckler 6 (10): 4+Int skills, d10 hp


more the duellist type of guy.

Cheers,
Farlion

*.*.*.*
2009-08-27, 06:28 AM
There, hope that helps.

- Saph

It sure did :smallbiggrin: Thanks!

Cieyrin
2009-08-27, 11:34 AM
Depending on how high your Dex gets, looking into alternative armors like Nightscale (Max Dex +10 =o!) would probably not be out of line. Going ultra-high dex would also line up with grabbing that 4th level of Rogue, as your BAB isn't going to suffer for it and Uncanny Dodge becomes a necessity so you don't lose all that Dex AC unnecessarily.

Weapon-wise, a spiked chain is definitely a good option, though an elven thinblade or courtblade is not out of line, either. Going elf and picking up Improved Weapon Familiarity to pick up those and other elven weapon proficiencies is definitely a thing to think about, especially if you go Wood or Wild Elf. The courtblade would work wonders for Wood Elf, given the Strength bonus and the 1.5 Str Finessable weapon and high crit of 18-20/x2. Again, the same can be done with spiked chain but the Elven Courtblade has class.:smallbiggrin:

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

*.*.*.*
2009-08-27, 11:39 AM
Weapon-wise, a spiked chain is definitely a good option, though an elven thinblade or courtblade

I had actually already planned on this =D

#Raptor
2009-08-27, 02:48 PM
Champion of Corellon Larethian would be a good prc for a swashbuckler build, as it gives you dex to damage.

Gotta be a elf though, but imho being a gray elf or a fire elf is just fine for a swashbuckler build, as long as you ain't the only frontliner in ur team.
Sure, the con loss hurts a bit, but the dex and int bonus as well as the other elf goodies really make up for it.

And hey... sneak attack = Two Weapon Fighting.
Haven't seen it mentioned before in this thread, though its hard to believe that noone so far has said "TWF!!!" in a discussion on a character that gets sneak attacks.

woodenbandman
2009-08-27, 03:11 PM
Works as long as you have 10 ft jump, or have a ring of improved jumping, the standing jump doubles your dc for jump checks. IF you have to cover 20 ft, that's a dc 40 check.

Pft, I make that on a 2, at level 4, and I get battle jump damage as well.

Stalwart Battle Sorceror 4, with Expeditious Retreat and Jump. Of course a duskling barbarian1/Totemist 3 could do it just as well. Probably.

sadi
2009-08-27, 04:08 PM
Champion of Corellon Larethian would be a good prc for a swashbuckler build, as it gives you dex to damage.

Gotta be a elf though, but imho being a gray elf or a fire elf is just fine for a swashbuckler build, as long as you ain't the only frontliner in ur team.
Sure, the con loss hurts a bit, but the dex and int bonus as well as the other elf goodies really make up for it.

And hey... sneak attack = Two Weapon Fighting.
Haven't seen it mentioned before in this thread, though its hard to believe that noone so far has said "TWF!!!" in a discussion on a character that gets sneak attacks.

I've tried to do this, swashbuckler 3/ rogue 3/ fighter 2/champion of cor 2/swashx. The problem is champion takes 4 feats and heavy armor prof, so you need the fighter levels for some feats and the armor prof.

You get weapon finess, +dex +int to damage, it takes all your feats besides daring outlaw to quality and you need to be an elf or half elf. So unless you're using character flaws you aren't going to be taking two weapon feats until level 9. That was the problem I came up with trying to do this.

sofawall
2009-08-27, 10:16 PM
Pft, I make that on a 2, at level 4, and I get battle jump damage as well.

Stalwart Battle Sorceror 4, with Expeditious Retreat and Jump. Of course a duskling barbarian1/Totemist 3 could do it just as well. Probably.

You do know you don't fail on ones, right? It's a skill check.