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Myrmex
2009-08-27, 12:58 AM
Without arcane magic, how would you quarantine a wightocaplypse/outbreak of undead? Limit yourself to 4 ECL 12 characters + npcs that would be appropriate. You have at your disposable a crusading army of veteran knights. A powerful church will supply up to 8th level characters, but due to strife elsewhere, can never supply more than 24 levels of PC or 48 NPC at a time.

Imagine a 1000 square mile area (100 miles by 10 miles roughly), already infected. This is potentially 100,000 low CR undead (ghouls, skeletons, zombies, ghasts, wights, etc), + a handful of up to CR12 undead.

The terrain is low, rolling hills, mostly farmland or flat prairie, broken up with open woodlands. A river, holy to Pelor, borders one side of the quarantine, doing 20d4 damage to any undead that attempt to go through it. A shrine, a month's travel to the north (900 miles), is the source of the holiness. If it were to be desecrated, the river would lose its magic.

The undead are mostly uncooperative with each other, and tend towards solitariness. They tolerate each other's company when prey's around. Wights don't have control over spawn. The higher CR undead are trying to either escape quarantine, marshal an army, or entrench to withstand any assaults. The smarter, more powerful undead don't necessarily work together, either.

The plague moved quickly as smart undead, like wights or ghouls, followed roads to new towns or cities. Refugees fleeing one zombified area found themselves being hunted in another.

How do you prevent the plague from spreading? Locking down the area as fast as possible is of the utmost importance, as urban centers are only 4 hours apart for a hungry wight clever enough to follow roads. Mounting a large assault with lots of troops is risky, as anything that falls will come back as a zombie, ghoul, wight, or worse. However, sealing the place up isn't the only solution, as dark forces conspire within the infected area to break free and desecrate the shrine to the north.

sofawall
2009-08-27, 01:03 AM
Lots of Walls?

I dunno, I prefer making these apocalypses, not stopping them.

Alejandro
2009-08-27, 01:05 AM
Lots and lots of characters with Sacred Purification/Radiance and feats to increase their turn attempts per day, coupled with at least one specialist in teleportation or flying magic.

Keewatin
2009-08-27, 10:31 AM
I am not sure how to contain that large an area without arcane magic, as far as protecting the church my first thought was holy water elementals. Elementals are formed from whatever is near when they are summoned so just summoning them near that river could lead to some fun undead destroying situations, especially if you allow the elementals to vortex on land.

Also control weather + some crazy ritualized version of bless water to make a monsoon of holy rain to melt anything not indoors.

In such a large area anything that can fly and has ranged attacks candeal with about 95% of all undead.

Use traps (bucket of holy water over a door is classic and effective) and roadblocks/natural barriers, herd them into valleys trap them with rockfalls etc.

Use people who can turn to herd (especially clerics mounted on flying things if possible)

In general the goal should be to control and contain them on a small scale first while overall reducing the area you need to cover. Rangers with favored enemy undead can hunt down any you miss once you have delt with the majority.

Make the general population aware of the threat and on the lookout (undead are not in general very sneaky). Set up a signal system like fires to call for the aid of PCs if any high CR undead are spotted.

Oh and if you allow it dust of dryness + that river could lead to some interesting carpetbombing opportunities.


This sounds fun wish I were playing it :smallsmile:

woodenbandman
2009-08-27, 11:13 AM
Rebuke Undead > Use rebuked undead to kill others. Much more effective than turning.

Starbuck_II
2009-08-27, 11:23 AM
Without arcane magic, how would you quarantine a wightocaplypse/outbreak of undead? Limit yourself to 4 ECL 12 characters + npcs that would be appropriate. You have at your disposable a crusading army of veteran knights. A powerful church will supply up to 8th level characters, but due to strife elsewhere, can never supply more than 24 levels of PC or 48 NPC at a time.

Imagine a 1000 square mile area (100 miles by 10 miles roughly), already infected. This is potentially 100,000 low CR undead (ghouls, skeletons, zombies, ghasts, wights, etc), + a handful of up to CR12 undead.

The terrain is low, rolling hills, mostly farmland or flat prairie, broken up with open woodlands. A river, holy to Pelor, borders one side of the quarantine, doing 20d4 damage to any undead that attempt to go through it. A shrine, a month's travel to the north (900 miles), is the source of the holiness. If it were to be desecrated, the river would lose its magic.

The undead are mostly uncooperative with each other, and tend towards solitariness. They tolerate each other's company when prey's around. Wights don't have control over spawn. The higher CR undead are trying to either escape quarantine, marshal an army, or entrench to withstand any assaults. The smarter, more powerful undead don't necessarily work together, either.

The plague moved quickly as smart undead, like wights or ghouls, followed roads to new towns or cities. Refugees fleeing one zombified area found themselves being hunted in another.

How do you prevent the plague from spreading? Locking down the area as fast as possible is of the utmost importance, as urban centers are only 4 hours apart for a hungry wight clever enough to follow roads. Mounting a large assault with lots of troops is risky, as anything that falls will come back as a zombie, ghoul, wight, or worse. However, sealing the place up isn't the only solution, as dark forces conspire within the infected area to break free and desecrate the shrine to the north.

Moats of holy water.
Showers/fountains of holy water.
Lots of Holy Water.

Keld Denar
2009-08-27, 12:00 PM
Lyre of Building!!!!

:elan:Encircle Encircle Encircle:elan:
:elan:Encircle the nasty undead outbreak :elan:

PinkysBrain
2009-08-27, 12:16 PM
If this kind of wight infection is possible, countries in the world must have contingency plans in place to deal with them ... what are they?

Temet Nosce
2009-08-27, 12:20 PM
By quarantine I'm going to be optimistic and assume you mean "kill all of them". I see two simple options. Locate City Bomb, and Apocalypse from the Sky. The latter would require you hunting down the higher CR leftovers though.

If you actually meant quarantine (as in just isolate them without killing them) then it becomes a lot harder. I'd have to consider it at length in that case.

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-27, 12:29 PM
Without arcane magic, how would you quarantine a wightocaplypse/outbreak of undead?

...With divine magic?

I mean, last time I checked Clerics/Druids get Wall of Stone too, right? A fire domain cleric has Wall of Fire. Plant domain and druids have Wall of Thorns.

Failing that, the Locate City Bomb isn't restricted to either Arcane or Divine magic.

Really though, the easiest method would be making a moat around the area. Use Stone Shape to divert the river into a circle around the quarantine area. Then use fly spells, Stone Shape and maybe Gate: Earth Elemental Monolith to slowly dig out the bottom of the entire area and collapse it into the river below piece by piece.

The real problem is the fact that a lich is, I think, CR 12. This means it -will- escape no questions asked.

Myrmex
2009-08-27, 12:53 PM
If this kind of wight infection is possible, countries in the world must have contingency plans in place to deal with them ... what are they?

Right.
That's what I'm asking.
What are these plans?
How effective are they?


...With divine magic?

I mean, last time I checked Clerics/Druids get Wall of Stone too, right? A fire domain cleric has Wall of Fire. Plant domain and druids have Wall of Thorns.

Failing that, the Locate City Bomb isn't restricted to either Arcane or Divine magic.

Really though, the easiest method would be making a moat around the area. Use Stone Shape to divert the river into a circle around the quarantine area. Then use fly spells, Stone Shape and maybe Gate: Earth Elemental Monolith to slowly dig out the bottom of the entire area and collapse it into the river below piece by piece.

The real problem is the fact that a lich is, I think, CR 12. This means it -will- escape no questions asked.

Locate City Bomb is silly. If that's in play, then everything in a campaign will make little sense, as a low level caster can pretty much annihilate most life in huge swaths.

Moats + walls would take a LONG time. ~120 miles of it. Putting chokes up on roads with magically conjured walls would probably be the first thing you'd want to do. With a good fortifications, you can leave relatively low level people there to handle the monsters.

Every urban center near by will either have to be evacuated or sealed up. Evacuation makes the most sense, since the only left over people in the area will be armed and hopefully have casting & turning, which means they can handle whatever undead they draw to them.

I imagine there would be an infected area, then a 30 to 90 mile wide buffer zone where all the peasants have been moved out, and mounted clerics roam to pick off anything trying to sneak out.

Johel
2009-08-27, 12:58 PM
I'll maybe say something stupid/crazy/megalomaniac but

Would a series of Forbiddance spells do the trick ?

You said no ARCANE magic so...

Sure, it's expansive and it will take time to cast it but if the Church can pay for the raw material, then we already got at least 1 priest who's 12th level, right ?

No arcane magic, just using loads of rare incenses along the borders of the quarantine area. It'll prevent the walking undeads from actually getting out of the area. You can then evacuate the population and slowly hunt down the undeads, slowly cleaning one area after another with your crusader army.

Flying undeads are another problem...

EDIT : also, you could start with "Forbiddance" on a single city, where you would be able to actually gather the survivors to organise convoys out of the area.

Myrmex
2009-08-27, 01:15 PM
@ Control Weather ideas.
That might work as a temporary solution to put a hurricane into effect to keep undead from moving through a large piece of land.


I'll maybe say something stupid/crazy/megalomaniac but

Would a series of Forbiddance spells do the trick ?

You said no ARCANE magic so...

Sure, it's expansive and it will take time to cast it but if the Church can pay for the raw material, then we already got at least 1 priest who's 12th level, right ?

No arcane magic, just using loads of rare incenses along the borders of the quarantine area. It'll prevent the walking undeads from actually getting out of the area. You can then evacuate the population and slowly hunt down the undeads, slowly cleaning one area after another with your crusader army.

Flying undeads are another problem...

EDIT : also, you could start with "Forbiddance" on a single city, where you would be able to actually gather the survivors to organise convoys out of the area.

PERFECT!!!!!
Thank you!

Wow, that's going to need a lot of castings, though. Almost 1100 of them, assuming bead of karma in play and coming from a 12th level caster. And the price in incense is going to be ASTRONOMICAL. I guess that's why everyone stockpiles incense- in case of wightocalypse.

ericgrau
2009-08-27, 04:01 PM
That sounds expensive though. Here are some other options:

lots of consecrations w/ altars followed by turning attempts. Good for army of low level clerics.
Sunbursts: 160 feet diameter, 1d6 per cater level. Oh ya baby.
Mass cure light (or moderate or etc.) wounds: hits 1 target per caster level. Also has caster level cap on damage is +25, so even CLW can be decent.
Walls of fire (wizard/sorc only). Very long, lasts as long as they concentrate, double damage to undead.
Holy Word.

The higher level undead might be a pain though. Best to set up the above against the weak ones then send in adventurers to hunt or draw out the strong ones.

Thatguyoverther
2009-08-27, 04:13 PM
I would try and divert the river to enclose more of the undead infection, maybe just damn it and let the flooding take care of the walking undead. Assuming of course that doing so doesn't violate the river's holiness.

Other than that your ability to contain the infection seems to be limited entirely by the amount of bodies you can put in the field to fight the undead and form barricades.

You might have to abandoned large swaths of territory until you come to a more defensible area, evacuating as you go.

PinkysBrain
2009-08-27, 04:13 PM
Right.
That's what I'm asking.
What are these plans?
How effective are they?
Well for one, they wouldn't depend on the PCs ingenuity or presence :) So it should have a chance of working without them. At a guess, I'd say that during a widespread epidemic Marut's come out of the woodwork and solve everything.

Johel
2009-08-27, 04:37 PM
consecration :
Very good to defend a city or some preexisting defenses against a flow of undeads. However, it doesn't prevent the undeads to get in or out of an area. It just make the area more easy to defend by a garrison. But it's cheap and easily available. Manpower doesn't seem to be a big issue so why not ?
advantages :

cheap
weaken undeads
can be cast by low-level NPCs if needed.

disadvantages :

short duration
doesn't stop the undeads
small area of effect


Sunburst :
8th level. We don't have it here, or at least not in the necessary quantity. Scrolls can be acquired from elsewhere, I guess, but without arcane magic, it'll take time to get them. Otherwise, very good for "nuke operation".

Mass cure light wounds :
That's our "mini Sunburst". 1d6+12 damage per undead, that's a one-shot for most mindless skeleton. Problem : not readily available and, again, that's a one-shot attack.

Walls of fire : Druids, maybe. But otherwise, that's arcane magic. Better than consecration but less readily available and much more short-term measure.

Holy word :
7th level. See Sunburst.

So, all of this is good to fight the undeads or actively delay them for 24 hours or so. But past that, we run out of spells and are overwhelmed.
What we need for quarantine is some passive measure that doesn't require us to attack the undeads. They'll eventually come to us, so our first goal should be to save as many people as possible and prevent the existing undeads to spread.

Limit enemy movements by closing the area. Nobody get in, nobody get out. Kill on sight. Ask questions after.
Set "evacuation roads" for convoys to evacuate people.
Set "checkpoints" where the refugees will be guided, checked and evacuated. Defend the checkpoints with a strong garrison.
Send "strike teams", led by PCs, to exterminate undeads inside the area.
Protect the altar.
Investigate the origin of the plague.


Forbiddance is good for 1) and 5). It can also be used for 2)
Consecrate is perfect for 2) and 3)
Walls of fire and MCLW are good for 2), 3) and 4)
the 6) doesn't take much ressources

T.G. Oskar
2009-08-27, 04:43 PM
Could I suggest Holy Storm from Spell Compendium?

Even scrolls are useful. Basically, you conjure up a storm that rains Holy Water. It requires a bottle of Holy Water, and once cast is immobile, but it covers a 20x20 ft. range. It's a mere 2d6 damage, but it's per round, so if you somehow immobilize them it's a decent choice for a spell. Furthermore, it's a 3rd level spell, so any Cleric of 5th level or higher can cast it, and it lasts a round per CL of the caster. So at level 8, that'd be 8 rounds of storm for about 2-3 castings, depending on what else you want to add.

Since Consecrate lasts for a decent amount of time (at CL 8, that means 16 hours, which means you can rotate the castings a bit)

Also, if you can have Extend Spell, you can extend the duration of Holy Storm for 16 rounds of holy rain upon your opponents, which means you can do a good amount of damage to undead within a minute and a half with one casting. The rest can be probably turned or destroyed with turn undead attempts.

If you can secure the efforts of a cleric with the Fire domain within those CR 8 clerics, Wall of Fire works wonders. Just make sure Concentration on the spell isn't lost by any means, and that it does the line-based wall. Afterwards, just spread the effect through all means. It's of utmost importance that you can trap as many undead in the Holy Storm or Wall of Fire as possible. Also, it's pretty reasonable to think that you'll be handling the CR 12 undeads, so even one Holy weapon is of importance.

KillianHawkeye
2009-08-27, 04:52 PM
Elementals are formed from whatever is near when they are summoned so just summoning them near that river could lead to some fun undead destroying situations, especially if you allow the elementals to vortex on land.

This is completely untrue.

Elementals are extraplanar creatures from the elemental planes. They are composed of pure elemental energy. They are generally summoned or called from their homes using magic. They are in no way dependant on nor affected by the location they are being summoned to.

Keewatin
2009-08-27, 06:25 PM
This is completely untrue.

Elementals are extraplanar creatures from the elemental planes. They are composed of pure elemental energy. They are generally summoned or called from their homes using magic. They are in no way dependant on nor affected by the location they are being summoned to.

Really? Perhaps you should read the descriptions of elementals again

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm

Specifically note that

"When summoned to the Material Plane, an earth elemental consists of whatever types of dirt, stones, precious metals, and gems it was conjured from."

and "A water elemental can’t venture more than 180 feet from the body of water from which it was conjured."

It would seem possible that an elemental summoned from a blessed holy river would have special properties. Upto the DM of course but on large scale projects like this is fun to get a little creative.

Fizban
2009-08-27, 06:32 PM
I'm pretty sure that with that kind of area, you aren't containing it, period. Best best is to fortify your population centers and let the apocalypse come. There's no reason for the undead to stick to roads, there's no way you could have enough man power to watch the entire border, even if you could wall it up physically incorporeals/vampires/liches/flyers will get out anyway.

For an offensive solution, hit up your local druid. Druids have the best army wrecking spells like control weather and control winds. Then grab the Book of Exalted Deeds for the spell Celestial Brilliance. It's 1 day/level of daylight that also damages undead: cast it a whole bunch and hand the objects to your troops so they can burn 'em out. Look through the monster books for 12 HD or less outsiders with good undead slaying abilities and Planar Ally them up. I'd suggest Warlocks with Wall of Perilous Flame (Wall of Fire deals double damage to undead!), but that's technically arcane.

It's drastic, but I'd also suggest having the Druid burn the whole area out, no exceptions. You don't want to leave any hiding places and the wildfire will probably kill quite a few in the forested areas where there's fuel.

Myrmex
2009-08-27, 06:48 PM
Well for one, they wouldn't depend on the PCs ingenuity or presence :) So it should have a chance of working without them. At a guess, I'd say that during a widespread epidemic Marut's come out of the woodwork and solve everything.

The PCs will likely be too low level to do a whole lot when this starts happening. An encounter with 1000 wights isn't trivial until the mid levels, and even then it could still be risky.

But yeah, there won't be any dependence on the PCs. Either the PCs will end up being in the middle of this when it goes off (Oh noes!!) or hear rumors/come across it. It's basically something that is happening in the world independent of the PCs.

Myrmex
2009-08-27, 06:59 PM
I'm pretty sure that with that kind of area, you aren't containing it, period. Best best is to fortify your population centers and let the apocalypse come. There's no reason for the undead to stick to roads, there's no way you could have enough man power to watch the entire border, even if you could wall it up physically incorporeals/vampires/liches/flyers will get out anyway.

The smarter undead know that roads lead to more people. I'm ruling that undead have no memory of their old life, so don't know the direction of any towns or cities, only that food happens to be along the trails & roads. Mindless undead will disperse mostly randomly, of course, but they're not as dangerous as the ghouls or wights. You'll get the stray wight or two that wanders around, but with talented rangers on horseback, they'll be easy enough to pick off. Also, a couple wights attacking a settlement or fortified town are far easier to keep away than, say, several hundred. Or several thousand.


For an offensive solution, hit up your local druid. Druids have the best army wrecking spells like control weather and control winds. Then grab the Book of Exalted Deeds for the spell Celestial Brilliance. It's 1 day/level of daylight that also damages undead: cast it a whole bunch and hand the objects to your troops so they can burn 'em out. Look through the monster books for 12 HD or less outsiders with good undead slaying abilities and Planar Ally them up. I'd suggest Warlocks with Wall of Perilous Flame (Wall of Fire deals double damage to undead!), but that's technically arcane.

It's drastic, but I'd also suggest having the Druid burn the whole area out, no exceptions. You don't want to leave any hiding places and the wildfire will probably kill quite a few in the forested areas where there's fuel.

Archivists will have access to those divine spells, but in this campaign setting, most druids have been ruthlessly hunted down as heretics and burned. Druids certainly won't be involved with the quarantine, at least on the Church end. They may be working on their own or with other druids.

PinkysBrain
2009-08-27, 07:13 PM
Lesser magic can probably protect settlements in the area which haven't been overrun ... but I think the Marut's are pretty much a necessity for the clean up and containment, or the gameworld needs relatively affordable magic items which perform locate creature (I'd say with ~50 fliers with locate creature you can monitor wight movement and direct troops).

Myrmex
2009-08-27, 07:21 PM
Lesser magic can probably protect settlements in the area which haven't been overrun ... but I think the Marut's are pretty much a necessity for the clean up and containment, or the gameworld needs relatively affordable magic items which perform locate creature (I'd say with ~50 fliers with locate creature you can monitor wight movement and direct troops).

Fliers for scouting is a great idea.

To keep containment in more wild areas, track would work. You could see where the monsters are going, how many there are, etc.

Setting out bait would also work- putting animals in cages with an ambush set around them, for instance. Laying traps would be a risk free way of killing some undead.

PinkysBrain
2009-08-27, 07:28 PM
I appreciate you want to keep the solution low magic ... but it won't work.

You'd need a huge well oiled organization of a 1000 strong or more to perform the containment with mundane detection ... where did these people come from so fast?

Myrmex
2009-08-27, 08:01 PM
I appreciate you want to keep the solution low magic ... but it won't work.

What do you mean by low magic? Not allowing silly rules abuse like the Locate City bomb or chain gating Solars is hardly keeping it "low magic", IMO.


You'd need a huge well oiled organization of a 1000 strong or more to perform the containment with mundane detection ... where did these people come from so fast?

Actually, a better question is "why haven't they shown up sooner". The major campaign power is a large Church, an umbrella organization of several other churches. They have spent centuries hunting down arcane casters, druids, and other heretics, and their past is full of genocidal wars against races that refused to forsake their racial deities or arcane magic. They have been enormously successful in consolidating their power within the campaign world and keeping out wandering monsters, marauding barbarians, and witches. Until about 40 years before the start of the campaign.

The king died without an heir, which has thrown the whole kingdom into civil unrest. 40 years of anarchy have passed, and the Church has also begun to fracture, as the nobility & the Church are tightly connected by political and economic causes. Resources are tied up in border conflicts, as well as trying to reclaim the border land that monsters are reclaiming. Witches now go unburned, and forbidden sorcery is once again practiced in secret places and high towers.

The Church has the resources to end the infection virtually overnight, but they are spread to thin to bring them all to bear. The best they can do, at the moment, is stop it. This is also the reason why it's taken them so long to react. In the past, inquisitorial squads could have teleported in for precise strikes, large forces of templar would have followed, or perhaps an epic spell or two could have been cast. But now, after the Church's wane in power and strong investment in preventing civil chaos, they simply don't have those kinds of resources, and the problem is too far away to be that pressing. There is a large, holy, uncrossable river, and thousands of miles between them and the infection, after all.

PinkysBrain
2009-08-27, 08:17 PM
What do you mean by low magic? Not allowing silly rules abuse like the Locate City bomb or chain gating Solars is hardly keeping it "low magic", IMO.
I mean using normal spotting and tracking ... you'd need a dragnet formation with people within sight of each other, otherwise stuff is pretty much guaranteed to slip through.

Actually, a better question is "why haven't they shown up sooner".
Because you need non-mundane travel methods to get the dragnet into place fast enough ... which with a large number of people is hard. It probably has only been around a day since the start of the spread. Getting mundane forces in place to contain the situation would take much more magic than getting a couple of fliers with locate creature in there.

Myrmex
2009-08-27, 08:28 PM
I mean using normal spotting and tracking ... you'd need a dragnet formation with people within sight of each other, otherwise stuff is pretty much guaranteed to slip through.

I see. Spotters in open areas in high places, people flying around, and rangers in the woods would be able to stop many of them. Not all of them, I agree, but so long as the area around is ready for whatever comes wandering out, it won't be that serious. Bigger buffer zones would also give more time to catch things sneaking out.


Because you need non-mundane travel methods to get the dragnet into place fast enough ... which with a large number of people is hard. It probably has only been around a day since the start of the spread.

Ok, I see where you're going. I was actually imagining more like a week, to maybe even a month. It's not like the wights were only overrunning level 1 commoners. I tend to put a lot of PC classed NPCs in my worlds. Being between level 1 and 3 is fairly common. What with two generations of war and bloodshed, most people have seen battle and monsters that their ancestors only heard about in stories.

There have been attempts to stymie the plague, by both the Church and the nobility, within the affected area.. There would be a few hold outs inside the quarantined area- churches, keeps, castles, more militantly aligned towns. Heck, there's probably a level 8, retired adventurer holed up in his tavern somewhere. I imagine all this slows down the undead in two ways: they were being physically prevented from spreading (knights take to the field, etc), and the warm bodies nearby keep them hanging around in hopes of getting a morsel. So a keep full of refugees would have a huge swarm of zombies around it, ghouls denning in the graveyard, and a wight lair in a nearby cave.

sadi
2009-08-27, 08:28 PM
Actually, a better question is "why haven't they shown up sooner". The major campaign power is a large Church, an umbrella organization of several other churches. They have spent centuries hunting down arcane casters, druids, and other heretics, and their past is full of genocidal wars against races that refused to forsake their racial deities or arcane magic. They have been enormously successful in consolidating their power within the campaign world and keeping out wandering monsters, marauding barbarians, and witches. Until about 40 years before the start of the campaign.

The king died without an heir, which has thrown the whole kingdom into civil unrest. 40 years of anarchy have passed, and the Church has also begun to fracture, as the nobility & the Church are tightly connected by political and economic causes. Resources are tied up in border conflicts, as well as trying to reclaim the border land that monsters are reclaiming. Witches now go unburned, and forbidden sorcery is once again practiced in secret places and high towers.

The Church has the resources to end the infection virtually overnight, but they are spread to thin to bring them all to bear. The best they can do, at the moment, is stop it. This is also the reason why it's taken them so long to react. In the past, inquisitorial squads could have teleported in for precise strikes, large forces of templar would have followed, or perhaps an epic spell or two could have been cast. But now, after the Church's wane in power and strong investment in preventing civil chaos, they simply don't have those kinds of resources, and the problem is too far away to be that pressing. There is a large, holy, uncrossable river, and thousands of miles between them and the infection, after all.

So the main player in the game is an evil religious "church" that kills everything that isn't like them. I'd let the undead kill them and all that follow them. If this organization has the resources to take care of the problem, I'd let them and in the process weaken them even more than they already are. Once they're weak enough they get toppled.

This all is assuming you're not part of the churchs higher power structure, in which case you'd actually have motivation to preserve the statis quo.

Kallisti
2009-08-27, 08:36 PM
My recommendation would be to get all of the survivors into as few cities as possible, and Forbiddance. Undead run into the Forbiddance and can't enter, the people in the city are mostly safe. Have clerics using create food/water and remove disease to minimize the negative impact of having such crowded cities. Probably a good idea to declare martial law, too.

Then have teams of mid and high level adventurers (especially clerics and rangers with favored enemy undead) strike out from the cities, destroy as many undead as possible, and return. Continue until the area is safe again, then put up Forbiddance in an area, and build another city there. Escort part of the civilian population from the first city to the new one. Repeat until the undead are re-dead.

Basically, the idea is that by denying them access to the hordes or random commoners that populate the world, you prevent them from spawning new undead, and you can slowly whittle away at their numbers.

Myrmex
2009-08-27, 08:36 PM
So the main player in the game is an evil religious "church" that kills everything that isn't like them.

One of the main players, for sure. The main purpose is to actually let my players use high level arcane spells and when they ask "so why hasn't anyone else done this before," I can say "they were burned at the stake." Then they'll go "oh yeah."

I also like the zealotry of the Warhammer 40,000 Space Marine chapters, and how, despite really great technology, many live in a sort of quasi-dark ages. An oppressive, powerful, but necessary organization makes sense to me, in D&D. How else can you get the quasi-medieval dirt slum feel, yet have access to all this stupendous, economy destroying magic?


I'd let the undead kill them and all that follow them. If this organization has the resources to take care of the problem, I'd let them and in the process weaken them even more than they already are. Once they're weak enough they get toppled.

It's only the Church's problem insomuch that they are allowing these abominations to persist and it undermines their credibility. They also hate the undead with the fiery passion of a thousand burning suns. They'd take care of it if it wasn't for bigger existential problems.


This all is assuming you're not part of the churchs higher power structure, in which case you'd actually have motivation to preserve the statis quo.

This scenario is assuming that you are part of the church/nobility power structure, and are responsible for stopping the spread until your superiors can give it their attention.

Ormur
2009-08-27, 08:42 PM
You could try digging a canal around the infected area with move earth spells to divert the holy water river around it, making it an island.
If the river is along the long side of the infected area you'd need a 120 mile long canal to enclose the area. Now the spell works over a maximum of a 750x750 feet area to a depth of 10 feet. That would require about 840 castings of a pretty high level spell (6th). But if you could shape it to a more canal-like form, 10x10x56250 feet with shape metamagic or something, it would only require 11 or 12 castings.

Edit: oh yeah and you need druids if it can't be arcane.

sadi
2009-08-27, 08:44 PM
Then fire is your friend as long as the wind is consistently towards the river, or you have some means to keep the wind blowing. The non intelligent undead will die, the semi-intelligent will flee away from the fire. Of course if you're talking 6 people it's not going to happen, but if you can recruit enough chumps it has a higher possibility of sucess.

Fizban
2009-08-29, 05:34 AM
Your point about intelligent undead following the roads makes a lot of sense, but it just doesn't feel undead to me. But I can work with it. Here's an important question: which side does the river border? If it's a long side, that makes things a lot easier, but if it's a short side it hardly matters.

I agree with flying mounts being a good idea if available. I can't see rangers patrolling 100 miles very effectively on foot, but on fast horses or by air it could be done. Some rangers on dire eagles (better yet, halflings on dire hawks can do it sooner) should be able to cover the hills while some on foot can comb the forests. Road barricades won't really help unless you've got some very steep valleys, but naturally watchposts are still good idea. I still suggest Celestial Brilliance for all your clerics, since it's cheap damage that your footsoldiers can rely on. Even if you've got leveled characters at each station I wouldn't want to rely on them alone, and the Brilliance gives them an edge that will last for days.

The only spells that have distances measured in miles or large enough to sweep miles of terrain are high level druid and arcane spells, so without those you're stuck with man/beast power. At that point the answer is "ask the DM" if it works, because otherwise you have to figure out the density and rate of expansion of the undead and how many men you have exactly and what their patrol paths are and their spot and survival checks and it's just too much to run the numbers on. Or maybe I'm just lazy.

Johel
2009-08-29, 07:54 AM
So far, a "build" for the defense :

The Air Control (AC)

20 Giant Eagles + 20 riders + 20 adepts with "Detect Evil"
Each eagle fly above a given perimeter at low altitude, searching for undeads.
Pick up hordes by sight and powerful individual undeads by magic.
Report every few hours. They don't fight.
Can be sent on specific reco missions to locate "border crossers"

The Havens

Fortified cities.
Blessed with Forbiddance along their walls.
Protected by regular troops and volunteers
Welcome the refugees.
Train the "volunteers" (draft).

The Watchtowers

20.000 Wooden towers built along the borders
1 every 200m or so (so, that covers the 2.200 miles perimeters)
3 volunteers (+1 optionnal adept).
Volunteers shift guard every 4 hours.
Adept rests most of the time.
Whenever a undead is spotted, they blow an horn.
Adepts can provide magic support if needed.

The Ground Patrols

Groups of 5 mounted warriors
Check on the watchtowers.
Have several patrols circling for the whole perimeter.
10 minutes between each patrol.
If a watchtower blows a horn, the Patrol goes to investigate.
If a watchtower has been attacked, the Patrol let a mark on the tower.
If a threath is spotted, it rides to warn HQ.

The Extermination Squadrons (ES)

10 groups of 100 ridders.
Ride toward whatever the Air Control reported as "soft targets".
Ride toward whatever crossed the borders.
Small hordes of mindless undeads or lone, weak intelligent undeads.

The Strike Team (ST)

1 elite group (the PCs)
They drop on whatever the Air Control reported as "****ing dangerous".
Large hordes and powerful intelligent undeads.

The Volunteer Army (VA)

Conscipts from the refugees.
Are used to build the watchtower perimeter.
Are used to protect the Havens.
Are used to repel/delay whatever cross the borders
Are used to help evacuate the remaining refugees.

HQ

Outside the infected area.
Clerics with "Sending".
Dispatch the ES, the ST or the VA, depending of the targets.
Priorities :


intelligent undead crossing the area
intelligent undead nearing the border
intelligent undead nearing a Haven
intelligent undead inside the area
large horde crossing the area
small horde crossing the area
large group of refugees in danger
large horde nearing the border
small group of refugees in danger
small horde nearing the border
small horde inside the area
large horde nearing a Haven
small horde nearing a Haven
large horde inside the area

Myrmex
2009-08-29, 01:30 PM
Very nice, Johel. Finding 80,000 people to stay in the watchtowers will be difficult, though. I think a net of watchtowers at 1 mile intervals would be more sensible. That would only take 1000 or so watchers.

Fizban-
A long side borders the river. The plague grew towards population centers, which tended to be along the river, since transportation up & down it is easier. It's not a perfect box; more like an oval with a river for one side.

Also, I am the DM.

Draz74
2009-08-29, 01:58 PM
Sending Stones. Lots and lots of Sending Stones, each pair good for one "phone call" per day.