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EnnPeeCee
2009-08-27, 02:56 AM
So, I'm looking into some things about making a tiny sized character, and had some questions about some things.

A tiny creature has no reach, which means they must enter the opponent's square to attack.
- Does a tiny creature wielding a reach weapon have a normal 5ft reach?
- Would you still be able to attack the opponent with the reach weapon if you occupied their square?
- Are there other ways to gain that reach with melee weapons?

- Are there any tiny sized races that are playable as a player (IE, not playing as a monkey)

- Are there any better ways to reduce a small character to tiny than by using a permanent reduce person?

Thajocoth
2009-08-27, 03:14 AM
Psuedodragon and Grig Sprite, both LA +3

Ganurath
2009-08-27, 03:16 AM
Any Small standard race playing a psionic character with the Reduction power. You probably want a halfling with throwing weapons as a psychic warrior to get the most out of size and Dex bonuses.

EnnPeeCee
2009-08-27, 03:18 AM
Psuedodragon and Grig Sprite, both LA +3

Ah, so there is. Although I would prefer to play a humanoid, I'll keep Grig in mind.

EnnPeeCee
2009-08-27, 03:19 AM
Any Small standard race playing a psionic character with the Reduction power. You probably want a halfling with throwing weapons as a psychic warrior to get the most out of size and Dex bonuses.

Right now I'm not using any psionics, but if I do, a good method.

Salt_Crow
2009-08-27, 03:19 AM
- Does a tiny creature wielding a reach weapon have a normal 5ft reach?
I'm not sure about this one. Reach weapons work as doubling your natural reach (which is 0) not adding +5ft iirc.


- Would you still be able to attack the opponent with the reach weapon if you occupied their square?
If the previous question did indeed allow one to make the increase in reach, I'd say no. Your reach is in 5-ft. square around you and not the square you occupy/share.


- Are there other ways to gain that reach with melee weapons?
Abberant Reach (LoM), 3rd level Warshaper (was it 2nd?) etc. Those add flat +5ft to reach iirc.


- Are there any tiny sized races that are playable as a player (IE, not playing as a monkey)
Tibbit from Dragon Compendium can turn into a tiny cat with some items retained. There's a Ring of Reduction in LoM that permanently (as long as you have the ring on) reduces your size by one category regardless of your type.


- Are there any better ways to reduce a small character to tiny than by using a permanent reduce person?
Ring of Reduction, a spell in ECS w/ Giant type creatures (return to nature or something?) etc. The latter gives an instant reduction in size for creatures with Giant type. If it can be stacked, Fine size is not impossible. What a fine giant you will be!

EnnPeeCee
2009-08-27, 03:25 AM
I'm not sure about this one. Reach weapons work as doubling your natural reach (which is 0) not adding +5ft iirc.


If the previous question did indeed allow one to make the increase in reach, I'd say no. Your reach is in 5-ft. square around you and not the square you occupy/share.


Abberant Reach (LoM), 3rd level Warshaper (was it 2nd?) etc. Those add flat +5ft to reach iirc.


Tibbit from Dragon Compendium can turn into a tiny cat with some items retained. There's a Ring of Reduction in LoM that permanently (as long as you have the ring on) reduces your size by one category regardless of your type.


Ring of Reduction, a spell in ECS w/ Giant type creatures (return to nature or something?) etc. The latter gives an instant reduction in size for creatures with Giant type. If it can be stacked, Fine size is not impossible. What a fine giant you will be!

I was afraid about that with the reach weapons.

Is abberant reach the only flat bonus?

Must look into this Tibbit and Ring...

EnnPeeCee
2009-08-27, 03:39 AM
Another option, any ways to gain the ability to use reduce person aside from just taking levels in a caster?

Eloel
2009-08-27, 03:43 AM
Wand of Reduce Person & ranks in UMD.

Use Eternal Wand for 3 (4?) /day wand with infinte charges.

EnnPeeCee
2009-08-27, 03:49 AM
Wand of Reduce Person & ranks in UMD.

Use Eternal Wand for 3 (4?) /day wand with infinte charges.

Oooh, I had no idea eternal wands existed.
Its 2/day uses, for roughly the same price too.

Starscream
2009-08-27, 03:57 AM
Other Tiny races include Imp, certain Wyrmling dragons, and Petal.

Not a lot to choose from. If you want a race that's always tiny, I'd go with Grig or Petal myself. They are fey, but at least they are interesting.

If you don't mind using magic, I'd just get one of those rings and pick something Small. Tons of great small races to choose from, barely any tiny ones.

EnnPeeCee
2009-08-27, 03:59 AM
Ok, been looking at some things.

Warshaper would be difficult for me to get, and eats 3 levels for the reach.
Inhuman Reach looks possible, but eats 2 feats and applies a -1 to attacks.

I couldn't find the ring of reduction.

EnnPeeCee
2009-08-27, 04:00 AM
Other Tiny races include Imp, certain Wyrmling dragons, and Petal.

Not a lot to choose from. If you want a race that's always tiny, I'd go with Grig or Petal myself. They are fey, but at least they are interesting.

If you don't mind using magic, I'd just get one of those rings and pick something Small. Tons of great small races to choose from, barely any tiny ones.

Yeah, I think I'm going to need to go with a small character. I just need to find the best way to make myself tiny when I need to.

Johel
2009-08-27, 04:39 AM
Yeah, I think I'm going to need to go with a small character. I just need to find the best way to make myself tiny when I need to.

Background "curse" with DM fiat ?
Some custom cursed items could do it.
Or simply a Wish that backfired. Effrits can be jerks

After all, the benefits from being Tiny aren't that great and there are several drawbacks

EnnPeeCee
2009-08-27, 04:53 AM
Background "curse" with DM fiat ?
Some custom cursed items could do it.
Or simply a Wish that backfired. Effrits can be jerks

After all, the benefits from being Tiny aren't that great and there are several drawbacks

I'm planning on using things like Confound the Big Folk so that I could potentially stand under a creature as small as medium.

Irreverent Fool
2009-08-27, 05:04 AM
There is a Desert Wind maneuver in the Tome of Battle which increases your reach by 5 feet for one round iirc. Tome of Battle is also great as a tiny character thanks to Insightful Strike which allows you to do damage equal to a Concentration check (ignoring your normal weapon modifiers). There are a number of other maneuvers that grant bonuses against opponents larger than you as well.

My warblade once critically hit a guard for 63 damage while polymorphed into a rat.

obnoxious
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Thurbane
2009-08-27, 05:12 AM
There's the Jermlaine in MM2.

Johel
2009-08-27, 05:12 AM
My warblade once critically hit a guard for 63 damage while polymorphed into a rat.

obnoxious
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"-My eye !! It's burrowing through my eye !! Oh the pain !! Get it off !!"

Fax Celestis
2009-08-27, 09:35 AM
My Pixie lance gives a Tiny creature 5' reach.

Irreverent Fool
2009-08-27, 09:50 AM
"-My eye !! It's burrowing through my eye !! Oh the pain !! Get it off !!"

I was afraid the enemies might employ the holy hand grenade.

On the subject of reach: While the general rule in the SRD states that
most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach specific weapon entries say such things as
a glaive has reach. You can strike opponents 10 feet away with it, but you can’t use it against an adjacent foe.

The SRD mention that tiny creatures

typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can’t reach into adjacent squares. They must enter an opponent’s square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent. You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally.

So, by the RAW, a tiny creature either must ALWAYS enter a creature's space to attack in melee OR a tiny creature with a longspear has a reach identical to a medium creature with a longspear.

Naturally, both of these interpretations are ridiculous. By RAMS (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6801359#post6801359), a tiny creature's reach is extended to 5' with a typical reach weapon, but while using such a weapon it is unable to attack into its own space.

obnoxious
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Fixer
2009-08-27, 10:07 AM
My warblade once critically hit a guard for 63 damage while polymorphed into a rat.Awakened Rabbit with Warblade Levels... VORPAL BUNNY!

Optimystik
2009-08-27, 10:10 AM
Or simply a Wish that backfired. Effrits can be jerks.

"Do you really think I asked for a 10-inch pianist?"

Cieyrin
2009-08-27, 10:56 AM
Awakened Rabbit with Warblade Levels... VORPAL BUNNY!

It's unfortunate that Vorpal is such a lackluster enhancement. It's thematic at best, a waste of a +5 enhancement at worst.

So anyways, make that awakened Rabbit take some levels of Kensei to magic up those incisors and we may get somewhere!:smallbiggrin:

EDIT:

My Pixie lance gives a Tiny creature 5' reach.

I feel slightly disappointed I can't see the mentioned Tiny Knight mentioned in the Pixie Lance thread, though it's understandable as an old thread but still.:smallsigh:

Salt_Crow
2009-08-27, 03:07 PM
Ring of reduction is from LoM page 130. That book's got many hidden gems in very odd places (like mindsight for example).

woodenbandman
2009-08-27, 03:14 PM
Be a Kobold. The web enhancement gives them slight build, meaning they count as tiny for a lot of things. If you couple that with an augmented Reduction, you could shrink yourself down to diminutive, counting as fine for many things.

Fax Celestis
2009-08-27, 03:17 PM
I feel slightly disappointed I can't see the mentioned Tiny Knight mentioned in the Pixie Lance thread, though it's understandable as an old thread but still.:smallsigh:

I lost the sheet when RPGWebProfiler died, but the Tiny Knight was an modified Awakened Skiurid (MM-IV) Knight 12//Scout 4/Ranger 8 with Natural Bond, Combat Expertise, the Riposte scout variant (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a), Swift Hunter, and Deadly Defense.

Picture a squirrel from the plane of Shadow riding a bald eagle with a two foot long lance, screaming loquacious insults (said to a succubus: "Stars above, woman, do you ever cease your fornications?") and being generally impossible to hit due to his insane AC (+4 size, +4 dex, +6 armor, +3 shield, +2 deflection, +1-5 Combat Expertise, +2 riposte, at minimum) and all-good saves.

EnnPeeCee
2009-08-27, 03:41 PM
Be a Kobold. The web enhancement gives them slight build, meaning they count as tiny for a lot of things. If you couple that with an augmented Reduction, you could shrink yourself down to diminutive, counting as fine for many things.

Would slight build count for things like Underfoot Combat?

Edit: My understanding is that it wouldn't. It only says that it effects size modifiers, squeezing, and using smaller weapons.

EnnPeeCee
2009-08-27, 04:32 PM
Another quick unrelated question:
Is there another class or something somewhere that has an ability like the Knight's Bulwark of Defense? It's the one that makes squares you threaten count as difficult terrain.

Darrin
2009-08-27, 04:39 PM
Another quick unrelated question:
Is there another class or something somewhere that has an ability like the Knight's Bulwark of Defense? It's the one that makes squares you threaten count as difficult terrain.

Well, kinda. Deepstone Sentinel, AKA "The Dwarven Defender that Doesn't Suck", in ToB. It has a Mountain Fortress Stance that makes adjacent squares count as rough terrain. Otherwise, any Stand Still/Lockdown build turns any threatened square into a "stop moving" square.

EnnPeeCee
2009-08-27, 05:19 PM
Well, kinda. Deepstone Sentinel, AKA "The Dwarven Defender that Doesn't Suck", in ToB. It has a Mountain Fortress Stance that makes adjacent squares count as rough terrain. Otherwise, any Stand Still/Lockdown build turns any threatened square into a "stop moving" square.

Unfortunately that class won't work for this character because of the requirements, as well as the fact that I don't use ToB usually.

Emy
2009-08-27, 05:34 PM
There's the Jermlaine in MM2.

These have huge Wis and Dex, but poor other ability scores.

(Be a druid or cleric)

Fitz10019
2009-08-27, 05:35 PM
On the topic of Tiny, check out Gauntlets of Giantfelling in the MIC. The damage bonus is not v. Giants, it is v. anything larger than you are. It functions 3/day for 2000gp.

EnnPeeCee
2009-08-27, 05:44 PM
On the topic of Tiny, check out Gauntlets of Giantfelling in the MIC. The damage bonus is not v. Giants, it is v. anything larger than you are. It functions 3/day for 2000gp.

Oooh, now I wish I had the MIC...

Cieyrin
2009-08-28, 12:01 AM
I lost the sheet when RPGWebProfiler died, but the Tiny Knight was an modified Awakened Skiurid (MM-IV) Knight 12//Scout 4/Ranger 8 with Natural Bond, Combat Expertise, the Riposte scout variant (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a), Swift Hunter, and Deadly Defense.

Picture a squirrel from the plane of Shadow riding a bald eagle with a two foot long lance, screaming loquacious insults (said to a succubus: "Stars above, woman, do you ever cease your fornications?") and being generally impossible to hit due to his insane AC (+4 size, +4 dex, +6 armor, +3 shield, +2 deflection, +1-5 Combat Expertise, +2 riposte, at minimum) and all-good saves.

You sold me on Awakened Skiurid. I love the Skiurid, especially when the WotC Fight Club article had Skiurid Rogue/Ninjas.:smallbiggrin:

UserClone
2009-08-28, 12:52 AM
How can you awaken a Magical Beast? I thought it had to be an animal or plant, no?:smallconfused:

Thoughtbot360
2009-08-28, 01:21 AM
All I can say about being Tiny is: Don't get grappled. The obtuseness of the grapple rules will generally protect you from ever seeing a grapple roll, but at a -8 penalty....well lets just say that you will never be as boned in any fight as you will be if you fight some kind of Ogre Mage/Wrestler who mastered the True Strike Spell to nullify your AC bonuses. Then again, so is anything with Improved Grab (ironically, if they swallow you, that might work to your advantage...and make Vore fangirls squee).

Depending on your class, you might have different was to counter grapple:

Martial classes: BAB and high strength might combat, but not really overcome grappling penalties.

Stealthy classes: Max out Escape Artist!

Spellcasters: You know those spells that everyone talks about that supposedly make you untouchable? Look into those. Though I do have to say that smaller races are generally good mages in general because Magical damage is not diminished by weapon die size, strength penalties, etc., but ranged touch magic *is* enhanced by attack bonuses.

EnnPeeCee
2009-08-28, 02:23 AM
All I can say about being Tiny is: Don't get grappled. The obtuseness of the grapple rules will generally protect you from ever seeing a grapple roll, but at a -8 penalty....well lets just say that you will never be as boned in any fight as you will be if you fight some kind of Ogre Mage/Wrestler who mastered the True Strike Spell to nullify your AC bonuses. Then again, so is anything with Improved Grab (ironically, if they swallow you, that might work to your advantage...and make Vore fangirls squee).

Depending on your class, you might have different was to counter grapple:

Martial classes: BAB and high strength might combat, but not really overcome grappling penalties.

Stealthy classes: Max out Escape Artist!

Spellcasters: You know those spells that everyone talks about that supposedly make you untouchable? Look into those. Though I do have to say that smaller races are generally good mages in general because Magical damage is not diminished by weapon die size, strength penalties, etc., but ranged touch magic *is* enhanced by attack bonuses.

I'll be using a combo of Escape Artist and Close Quarters Combat to try to prevent that. Hopefully I can keep people off with that.

quick_comment
2009-08-28, 02:27 AM
You can prevent yourself from ever being grappled with a psionic tattoo of dimension slide.

At higher levels, a tooth of shax lets you use freedom of movement once per day

Fixer
2009-08-28, 07:06 AM
Feat: Shape Soulmeld (Blink Shirt) - Dimension Door once per round as a standard action. Instant grapple nullification.
Class: Conjurer (PHBII variant) - Allows Immediate action teleport, useful for preventing grapples from happening in the first place.

Jack_Simth
2009-08-28, 07:18 AM
- Are there any better ways to reduce a small character to tiny than by using a permanent reduce person?
Have the Giant type, and get the Return to Nature (Eberron Campaign Setting, page... 114, I think) spell cast on you repeatedly. Instant, and technically stackable. You can get the giant type with the +1 LA Half Giant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#halfGiants) race from the XPH or the SRD.

Irreverent Fool
2009-08-28, 08:38 AM
You struck out your line about playable tiny races, but I figure I'll mention it anyway.

The Petal from MM3 is a type of fey, a tiny fairy with a fly speed of 60'. It has Str -8, Dex +10, Con +4, Int +4, Cha +8. It gains weapon finesse as a bonus feat and has an LA of +2. I'd say that's a bargain.

Edit: And no, it does not have racial hit dice.

obnoxious
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Kaiyanwang
2009-08-28, 08:52 AM
You struck out your line about playable tiny races, but I figure I'll mention it anyway.

The Petal from MM3 is a type of fey, a tiny fairy with a fly speed of 60'. It has Str -8, Dex +10, Con +4, Int +4, Cha +8. It gains weapon finesse as a bonus feat and has an LA of +2. I'd say that's a bargain.

obnoxious
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:smalleek: +2? With the right class can be very powerful.

Vortling
2009-08-28, 09:30 AM
I haven't seen it mentioned yet but the spiked chain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#chainSpiked) is a good choice, both because it lets you hit adjacent targets and it can be finessed so you won't have to use your abysmal strength bonus to try to hit with it. I does cost a feat for exotic weapon proficiency but it's one of the few exotic weapons that's worth the feat. If you want your dex to damage as well you can dip a level of sword sage to pick up a shadow hand maneuver and stance to qualify you for the shadow blade feat.

Kaiyanwang: Petals incredible for a tiny race. They also have DR 5/cold iron. Someday I'll get to play in a game where I'm allowed to play one. Someday...

Eldariel
2009-08-28, 09:33 AM
:smalleek: +2? With the right class can be very powerful.

It's only "Cohort" LA - it has no written LA for being played as a PC. That said, +2-+3 seems pretty fair; it's got nice stats, but that's about it.

Melamoto
2009-08-28, 09:41 AM
-Reach Stuff-

By RAW, Tiny creature versions of 2 handed reach weapons count as having a reach of 5' instead of 10', and otherwise function the same (Can't attack any closer than it's reach). What RAW contains this? The A&EG, of course!

Irreverent Fool
2009-08-28, 10:47 AM
It's only "Cohort" LA - it has no written LA for being played as a PC. That said, +2-+3 seems pretty fair; it's got nice stats, but that's about it.

From the glossary on the wizards website:

Some creatures' level adjustment entries include the word "(cohort)." Although these creatures may be problematic as PCs, they make good companions for a character who has taken the Leadership feat.

From the SRD/Monster Manual:

Level Adjustment: This line is included in the entries of creatures suitable for use as player characters or as cohorts

I can't find any rule restricting the use of creatures tagged as potential cohorts as PCs(which makes one wonder why they bothered at all). But you're right. I should have mentioned that before.

I believe the (cohort) tag generally serves to denote that a creature may not be generally appropriate as a PC due to limitations. For example, a griffon has a level adjustment of +3 (cohort) but is generally unsuitable as a PC due to a lack of opposable thumbs and its inability to speak. The petal's only real limitation is that it is tiny. It can carry and manipulate tiny objects and communicate verbally.

On the other hand, I seem to recall coming across some monster entries that have separate LAs for cohorts and PCs so your argument may have merit.

I think it should be permissible in this case though as a tiny martial character is generally at a disadvantage due to tiny weapon dice and a tiny strength score. While being tiny (and having those stat adjustments) would be an advantage to a caster, the +2 LA would be a rather severe hindrance.

They would make outstanding rogues, though. Granted, they'd need to acquire reach in order to threaten and achieve flanking.

obnoxious
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Foryn Gilnith
2009-08-28, 10:57 AM
Level Adjustment: This line is included in the entries of creatures suitable for use as player characters or as cohorts


"This line is included in the entries of creatures suitable for use as player characters or suitable for use as cohorts". Paraphrasing, to clarify a different interpretation. *shrug*

Fax Celestis
2009-08-28, 11:01 AM
By RAW, Tiny creature versions of 2 handed reach weapons count as having a reach of 5' instead of 10', and otherwise function the same (Can't attack any closer than it's reach). What RAW contains this? The A&EG, of course!

A&EG is 3.0, and the rules it introduced were overhauled in the 3.5 PHB, which states that reach weapons double your reach. Tiny creatures have reach 0', and 2*0'=0'. No dice.

UserClone
2009-08-28, 11:43 AM
There will always be dice.

However, a reach weapon for a tiny creature should, can, and does increase your reach to 5 ft. in my game.

Fax Celestis
2009-08-28, 11:51 AM
There will always be dice.

However, a reach weapon for a tiny creature should, can, and does increase your reach to 5 ft. in my game.

That is certainly a sane houserule, and it's probably RAI (and definitely RAMS), but RAW? Nope.

UserClone
2009-08-28, 12:09 PM
Well, just you make sure that that's how it works in D20r.:smallwink: Thinking of making any Tiny races in D20r, by the way?

Fax Celestis
2009-08-28, 12:12 PM
Well, just you make sure that that's how it works in D20r.:smallwink: Thinking of making any Tiny races in D20r, by the way?

I might. "Tiny" is a hard thing to balance.

EnnPeeCee
2009-08-28, 03:56 PM
I'm liking this Petal idea. The only issues I see with it are making sure my group allows it, and the fact that it is a tiny fairy would make general interactions with NPCs and the like more interesting. If I was a blacksmith, I'd be confused if a little fairy wanted to buy a little set of armor from me.

I'll also have to check in with my group to see how we want to rule reach as tinys. That being said, I'm guessing if the reach weapons do allow you to threaten adjacent squares, it wouldn't then threaten the square you're in. That'd be what the spiked chain would be for of course, but just checking.

Cieyrin
2009-08-28, 04:06 PM
For some reason, I'm suddenly reminded of a Neverwinter Nights scenario (don't recall if it was a mod or the campaign) in which there was a Pixie (probably a Grig, I'd imagine) barbarian with a belt of giant strength wielding a medium battle axe. Rather impossible, really, not without gaining powerful build somehow and effectively using a small greataxe.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-28, 06:17 PM
For some reason, I'm suddenly reminded of a Neverwinter Nights scenario (don't recall if it was a mod or the campaign) in which there was a Pixie (probably a Grig, I'd imagine) barbarian with a belt of giant strength wielding a medium battle axe. Rather impossible, really, not without gaining powerful build somehow and effectively using a small greataxe.Titan Bloodline, by RAW, grants any creature with it the ability to wield a Gargantuan Warhammer without penalty. If it weren't for the fact that most bloodlines suck, I'd do it just for the imagry.

Cieyrin
2009-08-28, 09:32 PM
Titan Bloodline, by RAW, grants any creature with it the ability to wield a Gargantuan Warhammer without penalty. If it weren't for the fact that most bloodlines suck, I'd do it just for the imagry.

A Pixie with a Gargatuan Warhammer is hillarious. NPC material, definitely.

The Random NPC
2009-08-29, 12:42 PM
Speaking of being tiny, does anyone know a way to negate the penalty to grapples from being so small? I'm specifically looking to negate the "if you are two or more sizes smaller than the target you automatically fail to start a grapple" part of it. I have an idea about a tiny creature that grapples giants to death using things like Last Resort.

Atelm
2009-08-29, 12:47 PM
Speaking of being tiny, does anyone know a way to negate the penalty to grapples form being so small? I'm specifically looking to negate the "if you are two or more sizes smaller than the target you automatically fail to start a grapple" part of it. I have an idea about a tiny creature that grapples giants to death using things like Last Resort.

The Freedom of Movement spell might help with that.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/freedomofmovement.htm

CockroachTeaParty
2009-08-29, 01:13 PM
Another candidate for playable tiny race: Musteval, from Book of Exalted Deeds.

It's a tiny outsider, specifically a guardinal, with 2 racial hit dice and a LA of +5 (!). They've got a natural bite attack, a burrow speed, decent stat boosts, getting an increase to everything but INT and taking a hit to STR. They've got a slew of spell like abilities, including See Invisibility at will.

Most interestingly, they have an ability called Focused Movement, which basically gives them Spring Attack, except they can take any standard action during a move. Pretty potent, especially if you take that burrow speed into consideration. Burrow, pop out, cast a spell, then burrow back underground!

If you can swallow the massive LA, and the fact that you're a tiny white anthropomorphic ferret-angel, it's an interesting option.

Also from the BoED, there's the Coure, a tiny eladrin, again with 2 HD and +5 LA. They can fly, but they're not quite as interesting to me as the Musteval.

Cieyrin
2009-08-29, 01:27 PM
Speaking of being tiny, does anyone know a way to negate the penalty to grapples form being so small? I'm specifically looking to negate the "if you are two or more sizes smaller than the target you automatically fail to start a grapple" part of it. I have an idea about a tiny creature that grapples giants to death using things like Last Resort.

You'd need a way to virtually be larger without being so, like gaining Powerful Build, which on a Tiny creature would mean you could grapple with Medium creatures. The epic item, Bracers of Relentless Might, would increase you 2 categories for purposes of opposed combat rolls, so they may possibly allow you to go beyond that, too, so Tiny creature would be putting Huge creatures in a head lock, then. So you'd have Tiny size and large size bonuses.

Almost makes that Psuedodragon Reaping Mauler I've played around with a possibility, if nothing else than for the lawls.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

EnnPeeCee
2009-08-29, 02:54 PM
Well, I've put together a character with what I'm wanting to use so far. Its a Whisper Gnome which will likely use wands to reduce himself. You can see the sheet here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=150212), although he still needs equipment.

I really like the concept of playing a tiny race, but for now I'm going to stick with just shrinking. That Musteval looks like fun though, if only it didn't have so much LA.

I'm also thinking that it might've been better for me to have gone finesse with this guy, instead of straight strength.

The Random NPC
2009-08-29, 07:37 PM
@Atelm: That spell only helps if I want to avoid grapples, I want a tiny creature grappling large creatures, but can't due to RAW.

@Cieyrin: Although that would help, it is an epic item and therefore probably be unavailable.

It seems from my searches, I would be unable to do it without the DM making a custom magic item, or ignoring RAW for me.

Cieyrin
2009-08-30, 12:53 AM
@Atelm: That spell only helps if I want to avoid grapples, I want a tiny creature grappling large creatures, but can't due to RAW.

@Cieyrin: Although that would help, it is an epic item and therefore probably be unavailable.

It seems from my searches, I would be unable to do it without the DM making a custom magic item, or ignoring RAW for me.

Just don't show the DM the Rules Compendium where they specifically clear up that you can't grapple more than 1 size category bigger and you're good.:smalltongue: PHB and d20 SRD make no mention of the size corrolary, so ignorance is indeed bliss, here.:smallbiggrin:

Irreverent Fool
2009-08-30, 06:35 AM
Well, I've put together a character with what I'm wanting to use so far. Its a Whisper Gnome which will likely use wands to reduce himself. You can see the sheet here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=150212), although he still needs equipment.

I really like the concept of playing a tiny race, but for now I'm going to stick with just shrinking. That Musteval looks like fun though, if only it didn't have so much LA.

I'm also thinking that it might've been better for me to have gone finesse with this guy, instead of straight strength.

Reduce person can be made permanent. You can hire another spellcaster to make an existing reduce person spell permanent for the low cost of 2,950g (Caster Level(9) x 50g for a 5th-level spell,plus 5g per XP required as a component).

obnoxious
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Gorbash
2009-08-30, 06:43 AM
Just don't show the DM the Rules Compendium where they specifically clear up that you can't grapple more than 1 size category bigger and you're good.:smalltongue: PHB and d20 SRD make no mention of the size corrolary, so ignorance is indeed bliss, here.:smallbiggrin:

Both PHB and Rules Compendium state that you automatically lose an attemt to hold a target 2 or more size categories bigger than yourself.

Kobold-Bard
2009-08-30, 07:06 AM
Dunno if it's any use to you, but reading through old threads I came across the Frogrider (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20134), a homebrew Template by Fax Celestis that makes you tiny.

oxinabox
2009-08-30, 07:28 AM
don't know if this coun't but with the web expansion for RotD (IIRC) the kobold can count an tiny when ever he wants

Irreverent Fool
2009-08-30, 07:58 AM
don't know if this coun't but with the web expansion for RotD (IIRC) the kobold can count an tiny when ever he wants

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a
Slight Build: The physical stature of kobolds lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category smaller. Whenever a kobold is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as Hide), the kobold is treated as one size smaller if doing so is advantageous to the character. A kobold is also considered to be one size smaller when "squeezing" through a restrictive space. A kobold can use weapons designed for a creature one size smaller without penalty. However, the space and reach of a kobold remain those of a creature of their actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject's size category.

Just for reference.

obnoxious
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Cieyrin
2009-08-30, 10:31 AM
Both PHB and Rules Compendium state that you automatically lose an attemt to hold a target 2 or more size categories bigger than yourself.

I know the Rules Compendium does, which is what I stated above. I didn't recall the PHB doing so, which is why I believe the Rules Compendium explicitly stated such. This is what happens when I haven't seen any of my d20 books in 2 months now. -_-

EnnPeeCee
2009-08-30, 03:15 PM
don't know if this coun't but with the web expansion for RotD (IIRC) the kobold can count an tiny when ever he wants

It only counts for tiny for gaining bonuses on checks, squeezing through spaces, or for wielding undersized weapons. It says nothing about being tiny to to qualify for things that require being a certain number of size categories smaller.

Its a nice ability, but doesn't help this character unfortunately.

UserClone
2009-08-30, 10:37 PM
Holy crud! I know it'd be super-weak physically, but could you imagine the awesome-tasticness of a Frogrider Kobold? He could count as Diminutive for squeezing! Plus it's a fey Kobold riding a damn frog! HUA!

Person_Man
2009-08-31, 09:20 AM
This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77831) and this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5998772) (look for Fine But Deadly under the Specific Builds and Tactics Spoiler) might help you. Combine Underfoot Combat, Confound the Bigfolk (both from Races of Stone), sparrow Hengeyokai, Iajutsu Focus (both from Oriental Adventures), Goad (Comp Adv), and maybe levels of Knight (PHBII). Let me know if you want the combos explained.

Also, you can increase your reach with Inhuman Reach (Lords of Madness), Deformity Tall (Heroes of Horror), Extended Reach (Savage Species), and Warshaper (Comp Warrior, but only with natural weapons).

Fitz10019
2009-08-31, 09:48 AM
(Underfoot and Confound the Big Folk are both from Races of the Wild)

Confound the Big Folk is designed for small characters fighting creatures occupying 4 or more squares. The small character moves among the opponent's 4+ squares and his Confound options are always available, following the 'on the next round' requirement.

As a Tiny creature (or a Small creature Reduced) using Confound against medium creatures, your opponents will only have one square. It will be more difficult to reactivate your Confound options.

Round 1: enter the opponent's space, and hope they don't move
Round 2: use Knee Striker or Unsteady Footing
Round 3+: can't use Knee Striker or Unsteady Footing, your only option is Underfoot Defense, or leaving

Is there a better way to handle this?

EnnPeeCee
2009-08-31, 04:50 PM
(Underfoot and Confound the Big Folk are both from Races of the Wild)

Confound the Big Folk is designed for small characters fighting creatures occupying 4 or more squares. The small character moves among the opponent's 4+ squares and his Confound options are always available, following the 'on the next round' requirement.

As a Tiny creature (or a Small creature Reduced) using Confound against medium creatures, your opponents will only have one square. It will be more difficult to reactivate your Confound options.

Round 1: enter the opponent's space, and hope they don't move
Round 2: use Knee Striker or Unsteady Footing
Round 3+: can't use Knee Striker or Unsteady Footing, your only option is Underfoot Defense, or leaving

Is there a better way to handle this?

Hmm, I forgot about the fact that you have to move into the square before using those attacks. This could pose a problem.

Edit: Had a thought, Confound states that you must move into a square occupied by an enemy, not necessarily stay in that square. So, if you can gain reach somehow as a tiny character, you could tumble through their square to the opposite side each turn and still gain the benefits of those attacks. At least the way I'm understanding it.

Fitz10019
2009-08-31, 07:01 PM
Hmm, now that you mention it, only Underfoot Defense refers to remaining in the foe's square.

Pika...
2009-08-31, 08:07 PM
Any Small standard race playing a psionic character with the Reduction power. You probably want a halfling with throwing weapons as a psychic warrior to get the most out of size and Dex bonuses.

Take a standard kobold.
Take the draconic rite of passage.
Choose Reduce Person as your 1st level spell, which treats your ECL as your Caster Level.
Take the feat which makes the SLA 3/day rather than 1/day.



For added fun, become a dragonwrought kobold and do teh feat tree for flying. You're like a pesky little reptile fly they can't squat, but can launch Magic Missals at them. :smallbiggrin:

Pika...
2009-08-31, 08:10 PM
Holy crud! I know it'd be super-weak physically, but could you imagine the awesome-tasticness of a Frogrider Kobold? He could count as Diminutive for squeezing! Plus it's a fey Kobold riding a damn frog! HUA!

May I ask what this Frogrider thing is? Template, PrC, etc? The fey part really interests me.

UserClone
2009-08-31, 11:04 PM
Frogrider (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20134), a homebrew Template by Fax Celestis that makes you tiny.

Read zee thread. :smallwink:

Person_Man
2009-09-01, 09:51 AM
Round 1: enter the opponent's space, and hope they don't move
Round 2: use Knee Striker or Unsteady Footing
Round 3+: can't use Knee Striker or Unsteady Footing, your only option is Underfoot Defense, or leaving

Is there a better way to handle this?

Yes.

Find a way to get free movement. I suggest Hustle or Travel Devotion, but there are a ton of different ways (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358). Enter your enemy's square. Make a full attack action. With the Knee Striker from Confound the Bigfolk your enemy is considered Flat Footed, which means he qualifies Iajutsu Focus, Sneak Attack, and Sudden Strike. Or if you don't have access to free movement but do have access to the Tome of Battle, you can just move into his square and use a Standard Action maneuver. Either way, if you've done a half decent job of optimizing your damage output, your enemy should be dead.

Alternatively, you can be a Knight. Move into your enemy's square. You may wish to use Giantbane (Comp Warrior) to Climb Aboard your enemy so that he can't just walk away from you, but I find that's unnecessary. Find something interesting to do with your Standard Action (I suggest that you Demoralize an enemy, or use Acheron Flurry, or use Combat Panache, or make a Trip attempt using via Unsteady Footing, or find a magic item you like). Then use Test of Mettle (Swift Action), and most enemies must make a Save or attack you (and only you, with certain pre-conditions). With Underfoot Defense from Confound the Bigfolk, enemies that target you have a 50% chance of targeting your opponent instead, and enemies that target you have a penalty to hit from Underfoot Combat. If you're smart, you also have a Blink or Displacement effect going. Watch as your enemies kill their friend. I also suggest Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit, since you're going to have high Dex (from your tiny size) and lots of people will be targeting you (and missing). Assuming your opponent isn't dead at this point, don't worry about him moving away. Since you're a Knight, your enemy takes a big penalty to Tumble and the squares that you threaten count as difficult terrain, so your opponent can't take a 5 ft step. And if they still try to move away, you get a free AoO, so I suggest you take Stand Still (which stops their movement).