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View Full Version : [3.5] Can you force a buff?



Burley
2009-08-27, 08:30 AM
So, I've noticed the whole "Will negate (harmless)" entry on a of buff spells. I guess that means I could, theoretically, buff an enemy. If I slapped the Reach Metamagic onto Resistance or something lame, they could either save or just let themselves get buffed, right?
I ask because being able to throw buffs onto your enemy would increase the power of the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil's capstone ability considerably.

Keshay
2009-08-27, 08:35 AM
It seems as if you've answered your own question. In order to remove any confusion though: yes you can attempt to buff any valid target willing or not. The trick is figuring out how to turn that buff to your advantage moreso than to your unwilling target's

pasko77
2009-08-27, 09:08 AM
The trick is figuring out how to turn that buff to your advantage moreso than to your unwilling target's

enlarge :)

Cyclocone
2009-08-27, 09:11 AM
It get's pretty stupid, since many buffs seemingly lack a save all together.
Try something like Wizard 10/Spellguard of Silverymoon 5/Archmage 5; get Arcane Reach and enjoy casting Tenser's Transformation on enemy Wizards.

Irreverent Fool
2009-08-27, 09:20 AM
It get's pretty stupid, since many buffs seemingly lack a save all together.
Try something like Wizard 10/Spellguard of Silverymoon 5/Archmage 5; get Arcane Reach and enjoy casting Tenser's Transformation on enemy Wizards.
Am I missing something there? I thought that spell was self-only.

A character can attempt to resist any spell cast on him, or can choose to voluntarily fail the save. Those without the ability to make reliable Spellcraft checks have no way of identifying what's being cast (usually) and therefore generally resist spells cast by their enemies and allow spells cast by their friends.

I don't know if it's in the RAW, but it's generally assumed that you are affected by a (harmless) spell unless you specifically attempt a save and you make a save against other spells unless you voluntarily forgo your save. Perhaps there is some sort of sign/aura/instinct that allows a given character to differentiate between a (harmless) spell and a harmful one at the moment they are given the option to save. A nice Bluff check or a charm spell might muddle that sense though.

But yes, Burley. Once can use a (harmless) spell as an attack. Clerics do this occasionally with the heal spell against undead. If it is a spell that is normally touch range, then it is made as a touch attack. Group buff-type spells allow you to choose targets within range and though they usually say things like "X allies no more than X feet apart", it is well-established that the caster decides at time of casting which creatures he is considering "allies" for the purposes of the spell. So go ahead and start 'buffing' your enemies. If reduce person is an attack, I don't see why enlarge person can't be.

obnoxious
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Emy
2009-08-27, 09:27 AM
Am I missing something there? I thought that spell was self-only.

You're missing Spellguard of Silverymoon. Transformation gives an AC bonus, so it qualifies for the Spellguard ability.

Irreverent Fool
2009-08-27, 09:30 AM
You're missing Spellguard of Silverymoon. Transformation gives an AC bonus, so it qualifies for the Spellguard ability.

That's just terrible. This is why we have Inevitables.

obnoxious
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Douglas
2009-08-27, 09:38 AM
That's not as bad as combining Spellguard with Transcend Mortality and then dismissing it. You can even do both in the same round, as Transcend Mortality's casting time is an immediate action and dismissing it takes a standard action. Add Arcane Reach from Archmage and a metamagic rod of Chain Spell...:smalleek:

sofawall
2009-08-27, 10:29 AM
Wow, I just used Spellguard of Silverymoon to put personal spells in the War Weaver tapestry.