Length of combat [4E]

[Kol Korran]

i've recently DMed a group in 4E. and though i enjoyed the system, the battles seemed to drag quite a bit. part of it is the known "mop up" problem, but i dealt with it by most enemeis fleeting or surrenduring when the battle is decided.
but still the battle took a lot of time. i attributed it mostly to having a large group of new players, either to 4E, DnD, or roleplaying as a whole, but as i read through the forums i see this problem repats itself with other gamers. it seems most times, in a session of about 4 hours, a group gets to do around 2 battles (of a slightly higher level than the group), or even just one battle if it's big and complicated enough.
i have also been playing in a 3.5 group, but there most battles run much faster.

so i'm puzzled, as to why this is, and what can be done to hasten 4E battles. my thoughts is that it mostly stems from each player having a more complex action then just "move- basic attack/ full attack" in 3.5E for the combat orineted classes. also, the interaction of powers, location, status and such seem a bit more complex in 4E than 3.5- simpler powers, more complex integration.

but those are just my thoughts and impressions. what are yours?

Kol.

[Kylarra]

I think the usual thing to be done is to increase the damage output of monsters while decreasing their HP, so they still knock off approximately as much resources as before, but they go down faster too. This tends to make combat a lot more swingy (but shorter combat does that be default too, as "luck" averages out, the longer you are rolling).

3.X runs faster battles because later on it is simply rocket tag, and thus you either win or lose in the first round or two. 4e tends to not have as many Save or Dies as 3.X boasts (both by design and lack of splat).

[Freylorn]

Well, you're definitely right - while 4E is a lot of fun, combat does take up a large amount of time.

It'll get better as your players adjust more to the system, and there are a few time-saving techniques you can use (jotting down all your powers onto index cards and keeping them on-hand is a nice one, saves a lot of time looking them up and referencing them) but in the end, battle is still a fairly large time investment.

If the issue is players taking forever, I'll suggest to you the same house-rule I implemented in my games since 3.5. I've had issues for awhile now with a player who just takes forever to decide what she wants to do on her turn, and often this stems from the fact that when it isn't her turn, she's not paying as much attention as she should be. So it leads to the situation of "Oh, is it my turn? Hey, stuff moved around! Let's see, what can I do..." more often than I would like.

Once a player is called on to take their turn, they get one minute to complete it - or at least to declare their actions. If they take longer than that, you treat their turn as a delay, and carry on down the initiative chain until that player determines their course of action. At that point, they can take their turn in their new initiative count.

It's worked well for me so far, but your mileage may vary - and I'd advise against it entirely until your group has a more solid grasp on the rules.

[FlawedParadigm]

Well, last I remember reading about this problem on the CO boards back in January, the common solution was to reduce monster HP by 25-50%. I didn't hear about upping damage...you probably could, and should...but really, in most battles, it's fairly clear after a point the PCs are winning. Like as been said, just have the enemies flee, surrender, or just die when you feel is dramatically appropriate, not when their HP run out.

[Mushroom Ninja]

While combat does take up quite a lot of time in 4e, let's not forget how long things can last in a high-level 3.5 game. I've seen a single battle go on for about 6 hours (Mind, things weren't being run as efficiently as I think they should have been, but still...)

[Hal]

One of the things that slows down our games is people spending forever deciding what action they'll take, then taking just as long figuring out the math. "Okay, I do 10 damage. No, wait, 12 damage. No, wait! 16 damage!"

My GM's solution, as least as far as the math goes, is just to reject any math corrections. You say your total, the next player starts his turn. If you try to offer any corrections, you lose a healing surge.

While the 4e character generator is good about helping with the math, some people still have trouble getting their numbers straight. My GM's rule helps at least a little bit.

[Thajocoth]

You need to streamline the information and math to make turns go quicker. Yes, there will still be some reading and deciding, but it'll be quicker if each choice the player has is on a card laid out in front of them and they can see all effects on everyone by glancing at the board.

My group generally has one of the players handle initiative and another handle marks (the placing of colored chips under the minis on the board). Also, our cards say on them the dice + flat value to add. Like... +7, 2d4+5, Crit: 1d6+13. (In pencil so we can change them when we get magic items/an even level)

I wouldn't penalize people for anything. People will get faster as they get used to their character's specific options.

[Ent]

My first thought with the release of 4e is still my most prevalent: "Everyone's a spellcaster".

Coming from 3.x, it really feels like every PC is a spontaneous caster. In my experience, most people don't prepare their turn beforehand (power/stats/mods/bonuses) and everything grinds to a halt while you are figuring out your "spell".

I don't think it's just the system, and I don't think most people will get better about it as they become more familiar (though I did a year ago); I really think some people are just more aware or proactive about things.

[tcrudisi]

I've DM'ed 3 different groups and played in 2 different groups. In my experience, it's not 4e's fault that combat takes a while; it is the players fault. In one of the games I run, the players pay attention, know their abilities, and talk strategy while another player is taking their turn. A really slow combat can take all of 10 minutes. However, I run another game where the players are always talking to each other, they don't keep up with what's going on, and then they have to ask everyone else what their hp is, where the monsters are, etc. That game takes about 3 hours to get through one combat.

I see it happen a lot. In one of the games I play in, one of the players will take a whole minute deciding what to do. Then the DM will tell him to roll, and he will sit there shaking the dice in his hand for 15 seconds before he rolls one dice. Opposed to him are myself and another player, who as soon as it is our turn, we announce what we are doing and then 1 second later we roll all the dice - the d20 and the damage dice. If the d20 hits, we've already got the damage dice rolled. Literally 15 seconds for our turn, tops.

So really, in my experiences as both a player and a DM, I find it all boils down to the players. If they pay attention and know all their abilities, then combat should go very quickly. If they are new to 4e or just don't pay attention, then you will get a 2 hour combat.

[Zocelot]

Double all monster damage, and halve their hit points. This speeds up combat so much, and it gives it a swingier, grittier feel.

[Kurald Galain]

Every player must have either a well-written character sheet, or power cards. By "well-written" I mean that they really do have all the necessary numbers at a glance, with all the additions pre-made, so that they don't have to look up their attack bonus every. single. time. That also means writing out separate bonuses for when they're raging and when they're not, etc.

Have one player (not the DM) keep track of initiative, and make sure it's somebody who keeps the game going. When any player starts, he should also point out who's next.

Play with four players, or five at most, but preferably four.

When I DM any other game, my rule is that if you hesitate too much, so does your character, and you lose your turn. This is psychology: once I bring up that this rule exists, I never actually have to enforce this.

Certain powers or feats are just a waste of time. I'm talking about e.g. feats that give +1 to hit in some semi-rare circumstances, that players tend to forget. This is where the "I hit AC 24, oh no 25, oh oops I meant 26" syndrome comes from. Convince your players to pick something else when making their character; this is just as annoying in the game as 3E's "oh yeah, I forgot to declare my dodge". Houserule that a feat that gives +2 sometimes instead gives +1 all the time - much faster.

And most importantly, remind your players that the game is about having fun, not min-maxing every single thing, and thus taking an action now that does 20 points of damage is preferable to thinking for a minute and then doing 23 points of damage.

[Gralamin]

I've been working on a way to speed up conditional modifiers in online play, since it can be difficult. Conditions themselves are easy, but players will forget bonus A, B or C, or that enemy gives them combat advantage, etc.

I've considered using a page in my private wiki to place conditional modifiers on, as well as a description of each condition. Have it act as a sort of Player and DM screen.

[kjones]

Double all monster damage, and halve their hit points. This speeds up combat so much, and it gives it a swingier, grittier feel.

Don't do both of these - a basic attack could easily take a player from full to dead in one hit. Do one or the other - I recommend halving HP because it's easier.

[lsfreak]

Don't do both of these - a basic attack could easily take a player from full to dead in one hit. Do one or the other - I recommend halving HP because it's easier.

I believe he means double the monster's damage and halve the monster's hit points.

[kjones]

I believe he means double the monster's damage and halve the monster's hit points.

That seems likely. Oops!

Still, I'd recommend halving all hit points, but it's the same thing really.