Level of Cleverness?[Puzzles]

[woodenbandman]

Just how clever are your gaming groups?
Do they generally seek out a way to avoid anything and everything you toss, or do they charge into battle?

If you gave them a logic and/or physics puzzle, would they solve it, or hit it with a stick?

Can you expect them to do investigate in-game events, or do they take things at face value?

I ask this because a thought occured to me: What if in an RPG such as DnD players were given the tools that they needed to solve puzzles in a dungeon? For instance, if you gave them an immovable rod, a decanter of endless water, sovereign glue, a bathtub, and a 50 foot long plank in a room with a door on the ceiling (and drainage), would they figure out to glue the tub to one end of the plank, stick the immovable rod under it, and fill the tub up to weigh down one end like a see-saw so that they can walk up to the exit?

I like the idea of out-of-the-box puzzle solving in a game like DnD, where puzzles can be solved with strange and wonderful magic items, each more awesome than the last.

As for my group, we're not necessarily clever, but when there's a combat in the near future we bust out the combat maps and suchlike and plan for hours on the most efficient way to take out the enemy.

[rezplz]

Nah, my group, being mostly casual, heavily favors the "Enemies? CHAAAAARGE" tactic. Although I admit, I tend to do that as well (although currently its with fireballs, not swords).

I think I'm going to throw a few simple puzzles at them in the next scenario that I'm DMing, see how they handle them...

[sadi]

Hit it with a stick, hit it with a stick some more, wait a few minutes hit it again and then resort to logic to solve the problem. The main problem I've had doing thinking problems is the evil/greedy character picks up one of the necessary items without the rest of the party knowing. And of course they forget about it so the puzzle is unsolvable.

[Kelpstrand]

Why is that a better solution than immovable rodding their way to the ceiling? Or flying? Or chopping holes in the walls to climb up?

Or pulling out eight things they have that you didn't think of, like just summoning a bear, and climbing it to the ceiling?

[Kallisti]

My PC's can solve basic puzzles, riddles, etc. But something that requires out of the box thinking? Oh, no, no. Not them. And they never think in-character or react in-character, and are very, very not inquisitive about my world...

[valadil]

Avoidance. Most of my players charge straight into whatever challenge I've given them, assuming that's the meat of the game and bypassing it would lead to a boring game. For the most part they're right, but I think this is a case of GM and PCs conditioning each other in this way.

Logic/physics puzzles. Depends on the group and the puzzle. I have one group made up entirely of computer programmers. They devour some puzzles. Others they'll balk at because I won't let them use computers, or even calculators. I think the problem might be that once they figure out how to write a program to solve the puzzle, they're unwilling to figure out a method that can be worked out on paper. My other groups have been more tolerant of puzzles.

Investigation of in game events. Again, depends on the group. The group of programmers likes being on rails. If they see a plot they'll jump on it. And the whole group does this all together. If I want to see characters react differently, I have to throw them clues that aren't blatantly plot hooks. My other groups are better about investigating only what interests their characters. I've had them completely ignore the main plot or even try to side with the villain. I think this is better roleplaying, but makes writing game a lot more challenging.

I should also point out that the two groups I mention have very different game sessions. The programmer group meets for 3-4 hours on a week night. There's no possibility of going late. That's why they jump on the plot train instead of stopping to smell the roses. The other groups have had 6-8 hour sessions, with the possibility of going longer. They can afford to take tangents.

I have had issues with both groups, particularly the programmers though taking too much at face value. If I give them an investigation, they expect each and every clue to be a perfect piece of a logic puzzle. They'll usually account for the guilty party being a liar. But they can't deal with the possibility that someone will unknowingly give out bad information. It simply doesn't occur to them that that could happen and when I explain it, they balk. The other group has been more adaptable, but just as prone to assuming all NPCs give out perfect intelligence unless they are the one enemy who has been flagged as the BBEG and is therefore allowed to make bluff checks.

I rarely give out puzzles with only one solution. Most of the time I don't even think of a solution. I just put the PCs in a new physical situation and watch them deal with it. It's more creative than a puzzle that has to be aligned just right to be solved. And I find this kind of puzzle (bridge is out, Macguyver yourselves a new one using a half gallon of sovereign glue and three halflings) is far more believable than riddles or math puzzles being used to guard treasure in a dungeon.

[woodenbandman]

Why is that a better solution than immovable rodding their way to the ceiling? Or flying? Or chopping holes in the walls to climb up?

Or pulling out eight things they have that you didn't think of, like just summoning a bear, and climbing it to the ceiling?

It's not a better solution. Of course, it could be simply that the walls are hard and they're on a timer, because that's a bit TOO easy.

Really any clever solution that would solve a problem works by me. I like to encourage cleverness. There are plenty of ways to solve the problem I'd given, I just happened to list the one way that I thought up to provide colorful details to my question. There could just as easily have been a hundred more things in that room.

[Tyndmyr]

Just how clever are your gaming groups?
Do they generally seek out a way to avoid anything and everything you toss, or do they charge into battle?

If you gave them a logic and/or physics puzzle, would they solve it, or hit it with a stick?

Can you expect them to do investigate in-game events, or do they take things at face value?

I ask this because a thought occured to me: What if in an RPG such as DnD players were given the tools that they needed to solve puzzles in a dungeon? For instance, if you gave them an immovable rod, a decanter of endless water, sovereign glue, a bathtub, and a 50 foot long plank in a room with a door on the ceiling (and drainage), would they figure out to glue the tub to one end of the plank, stick the immovable rod under it, and fill the tub up to weigh down one end like a see-saw so that they can walk up to the exit?

Leave an immovable rod behind? Hah. I'd pocket that, use the planks and glue to fix the drainage, fill the room with the decanter, and float to the ceiling in the bathtub.

[only1doug]

Leave an immovable rod behind? Hah. I'd pocket that, use the planks and glue to fix the drainage, fill the room with the decanter, and float to the ceiling in the bathtub.

The druid would change into a flying creature and fly through the door with a rope, then change into a bear and pull up the rest of the group.

[woodenbandman]

Leave an immovable rod behind? Hah. I'd pocket that, use the planks and glue to fix the drainage, fill the room with the decanter, and float to the ceiling in the bathtub.

:smallbiggrin: Wow that's really clever I hadn't thought of that.

[Foryn Gilnith]

I did, and there's no way in ten hells that I would have thought of your idea. Everyone thinks different. That's why, when making puzzles, you need more than one way out. In one post, you said you did that, and that's great. But in some mystery plots, there's only one choke point the players can go through to move the plot. And that's bad. Many people would seem clever if the situation were more flexible.