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View Full Version : How does Iron Heart Surge interact with Cloudkill?



Frosty
2009-08-27, 08:38 PM
The spell itself is a spell with effects on more than 1 round. It normally does ability (con) damage. However, does ability damage normally count as a "condition" or "effect" to end? Would using IHS end the entire Cloudkill spell or just render the Warblade immune for the duration?

This is happening in a game right now and we'd like to feedback.

lsfreak
2009-08-27, 08:45 PM
My opinion is that yes it's an effect, and that for reasons that ending the effect completely is too cheesy, the warblade wouldn't be effected by the cloudkill. FAQ answer is that cloudkill ends (then again, FAQ answer has been argued that you can end the sun).

DracoDei
2009-08-27, 08:48 PM
From what I hear, it CERTAINLY won't end the entire spell.

Personally, I would just allow it to provide ongoing immunity, not negate any CON damage already taken.

Irreverent Fool
2009-08-27, 08:54 PM
The very poorly-written ability is up to the interpretation of the players and DM. For example, in the games I play we allow it to remove such conditions as paralysis although you are technically denied your standard actions while paralyzed and therefore unable to initiate the maneuver.

While the initiator may be within the area of the cloudkill, he is not 'affected' by it until he takes Constitution damage. He might be allowed to surge out of the damage since it's treated as poison (I'm unsure of the ruling on ability damage and IHS but I think this is a reasonable interpretation), but I don't think he can surge to become immune to the cloud for the whole duration. IHS wipes an ongoing effect from the character, it doesn't grant continuing immunity, just as he should not be able to walk through a wall of fire by using IHS.

obnoxious
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elliott20
2009-08-27, 09:26 PM
Has anyone attempted to re-write IHS so that it, you know, makes sense without totally gimping it's use?

woodenbandman
2009-08-27, 09:33 PM
I just leave it up to the DM and use it in suitably anime-themed ways. Bound and gagged? RAGE YOUR WAY OUT! Dominated? BREAK THE MENTAL CHAINS! Paralyzed, poisoned, confused, tazed, or swallowed? IRONHEART SURGE!

Eldariel
2009-08-27, 09:34 PM
Has anyone attempted to re-write IHS so that it, you know, makes sense without totally gimping it's use?

Yes. I basically made it a mental standard action with an intervening clause that in the event you're unable to take actions, you can take it anyways. Then I debuffed it somewhat by making it allow a new save (or in the event the original effect didn't offer a save, give you a save) at +2 to get rid of the effects.

I never liked how IHS cheapens the "You're not my father"-moment where you break the enchantment by making it autosucceed; personally it felt much better to me to make it allow a new save thus actually feeling like you accomplished something when you make it.


Of course, I mostly just rule on the fly what can't be IHSd. Most physical and mental conditions are IHSable though, along with most spell effects (for some effects, I have it end the effect - this would e.g. go for an AMF - while for others I just make it make the user immune, such as with Conjuration: Creations).

Kallisti
2009-08-27, 09:39 PM
Actually, Wizards of the Coast ruled, in response to a question, that not only can you use Iron Heart Surge in an Antimagic Field, it destroys the entire field, like a successful Disjunction would.

This establishes a precedent: Area effects hit by Iron Heart Surge are dispelled or suppressed.


Yes, they were actually stupid enough to rule that...

elliott20
2009-08-27, 09:43 PM
Yes. I basically made it a mental standard action with an intervening clause that in the event you're unable to take actions, you can take it anyways. Then I debuffed it somewhat by making it allow a new save (or in the event the original effect didn't offer a save, give you a save) at +2 to get rid of the effects.

I never liked how IHS cheapens the "You're not my father"-moment where you break the enchantment by making it autosucceed; personally it felt much better to me to make it allow a new save thus actually feeling like you accomplished something when you make it.


Of course, I mostly just rule on the fly what can't be IHSd. Most physical and mental conditions are IHSable though, along with most spell effects (for some effects, I have it end the effect - this would e.g. go for an AMF - while for others I just make it make the user immune, such as with Conjuration: Creations).

The way I imagined it is that it ends the effect on your person. But then for things like AMF, the subsequent round would re-establish the magical suppression and thus the IHS would only allow you to break the rule on that one round.

Mando Knight
2009-08-27, 09:49 PM
This establishes a precedent: Area effects hit by Iron Heart Surge are dispelled or suppressed.

Even more serious than that: Area effects hit by IHS are dispelled or suppressed, even if Dispel Magic normally does not affect them.

Shosuro Ishii
2009-08-27, 09:50 PM
Even more serious than that: Area effects hit by IHS are dispelled or suppressed, even if Dispel Magic normally does not affect them.

Going by the wording giving and that precedent, IHS suppresses the weather.

Mando Knight
2009-08-27, 09:53 PM
Going by the wording giving and that precedent, IHS suppresses the weather.

Vampire or Light-Sensitive race with IHS? Suppress the sun.

Shosuro Ishii
2009-08-27, 09:59 PM
Vampire or Light-Sensitive race with IHS? Suppress the sun.

True, true. If you really want to take the wording of the effect literally, you can will away an ocean, or turn off the elemental plane of fire.

Kallisti
2009-08-27, 10:01 PM
Ah, poorly-phrased powers.

My warblade takes the entire world hostage. How? "Do as I say or I will use Iron Heart Surge to end gravity and you will all float into space! When I float into space, I will use Iron Heart Surge to supress it! Bwahahahahahaha!"


I'm going to use this in my high-level campign. It's already weirdness-powered. A high-level warblade is wandering around using Iron Heart Surge to unmake the cosmos, one effect at a time. He must be stopped!

Irreverent Fool
2009-08-27, 10:46 PM
Yes. I basically made it a mental standard action with an intervening clause that in the event you're unable to take actions, you can take it anyways. Then I debuffed it somewhat by making it allow a new save (or in the event the original effect didn't offer a save, give you a save) at +2 to get rid of the effects.

I never liked how IHS cheapens the "You're not my father"-moment where you break the enchantment by making it autosucceed; personally it felt much better to me to make it allow a new save thus actually feeling like you accomplished something when you make it.


Of course, I mostly just rule on the fly what can't be IHSd. Most physical and mental conditions are IHSable though, along with most spell effects (for some effects, I have it end the effect - this would e.g. go for an AMF - while for others I just make it make the user immune, such as with Conjuration: Creations).

He said without totally gimping its use. Another example of "You're not a wizard, you don't get to be awesome."

obnoxious
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Frosty
2009-08-27, 10:48 PM
Ah, poorly-phrased powers.

My warblade takes the entire world hostage. How? "Do as I say or I will use Iron Heart Surge to end gravity and you will all float into space! When I float into space, I will use Iron Heart Surge to supress it! Bwahahahahahaha!"


I'm going to use this in my high-level campign. It's already weirdness-powered. A high-level warblade is wandering around using Iron Heart Surge to unmake the cosmos, one effect at a time. He must be stopped!

BBEG? :smallamused:

Anyhow, so basically, the serious answer is: Ask your DM?

deuxhero
2009-08-27, 10:57 PM
I am pretty sure that getting rid of a cloud kill with IHS is the specific example in one official answer by wizards about IHS (yes, it can).

Eldariel
2009-08-27, 11:13 PM
He said without totally gimping its use. Another example of "You're not a wizard, you don't get to be awesome."

obnoxious
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It's not totally gimped if you can literally take Enervation and say "no", and if you can break Dominates, AMFs, Paralysis, etc. just to name a few. Saves are easy enough to make anyways; adds a bit more suspense to it. Hell, it's actually STRONGER that way than as written as long as you have decent saves.

elliott20
2009-08-27, 11:18 PM
It's not totally gimped if you can literally take Enervation and say "no", and if you can break Dominates, AMFs, Paralysis, etc. just to name a few. Saves are easy enough to make anyways; adds a bit more suspense to it. Hell, it's actually STRONGER that way than as written as long as you have decent saves.

Not to mention I don't want IHS to actually END spells.

To me, IHS was meant to be used as an ability that allows the character to overcome the effects of a condition cast on him, but not the condition itself.

Kallisti
2009-08-27, 11:19 PM
BBEG? :smallamused:

No. My BBEG is already a god, he doesn't need Iron Heart Surge to unmake creation.

But a powerful villain it will take a while to defeat, certainly...

vasharanpaladin
2009-08-27, 11:23 PM
Not to mention I don't want IHS to actually END spells.

To me, IHS was meant to be used as an ability that allows the character to overcome the effects of a condition cast on him, but not the condition itself.

But it was meant to mitigate the warblade's lesser saves. The fact that it also eats your attack for the round should mitigate the "screw you, I'm not taking that" factor. Also, there's something to be said for instantly ending an effect DBZ-style....

Kallisti
2009-08-27, 11:25 PM
But it was meant to mitigate the warblade's lesser saves. The fact that it also eats your attack for the round should mitigate the "screw you, I'm not taking that" factor. Also, there's something to be said for instantly ending an effect DBZ-style....

I agree that it was a good concept, but the folks over at Wizards really need better editors. You know, people smart enough to read, say, Iron Heart Surge and say "Wow, that's pretty vague. That could definitely cause some rules headaches. We should probably rephrase that for better clarity..."

Frosty
2009-08-27, 11:25 PM
But it was meant to mitigate the warblade's lesser saves. The fact that it also eats your attack for the round should mitigate the "screw you, I'm not taking that" factor. Also, there's something to be said for instantly ending an effect DBZ-style....

Agreed, but then shouldn't IHS be a higher level maneuver?

Pie Guy
2009-08-27, 11:27 PM
You could use it to raise your max hp, because hp is a condition that's "affecting" you.

Haven
2009-08-27, 11:30 PM
"I am currently affected by the condition 'not piercing the heavens with my drill'."

Kallisti
2009-08-27, 11:30 PM
You could use it to raise your max hp, because hp is a condition that's "affecting" you.

Actually, no, you could use it to dispel/suppress/end your max hp, not raise it. Which would probably be a bad idea, because that could be interpreted one of two ways:

1. I have removed the maximum from my HP and now have infinite HP! Bwahahahahahahaha!
2. Crap, I just ended my HP *keels over and dies*

Most Dm's will choose to interpret it as option #2.

vasharanpaladin
2009-08-27, 11:36 PM
Agreed, but then shouldn't IHS be a higher level maneuver?

No, but I would suggest increasing the prerequisites for it (as it is, any character can snap it up in two feats). There's a precedent for that in the same book... two of the 1st-level Tiger Claw maneuvers require you to know a Tiger Claw maneuver before you can learn them.

Isak
2009-08-27, 11:41 PM
"I am currently affected by the condition 'not piercing the heavens with my drill'."

Have a cookie with that glass of Win, Good Sir.

And have fun piercing you some Heavens.

:smallcool:

elliott20
2009-08-27, 11:50 PM
Have a cookie with that glass of Win, Good Sir.

And have fun piercing you some Heavens.

:smallcool:

I still find that analogy incredibly Freudian.

Ravens_cry
2009-08-27, 11:50 PM
Actually, Wizards of the Coast ruled, in response to a question, that not only can you use Iron Heart Surge in an Antimagic Field, it destroys the entire field, like a successful Disjunction would.

This establishes a precedent: Area effects hit by Iron Heart Surge are dispelled or suppressed.


Yes, they were actually stupid enough to rule that...
And people say melee types can't get nice things. Personally, I would rule it on a case by case basis, going on the idea that it affects the kind of things that a hero can heroically do. Like muscling off been held in place by force of heroic will power, or trudging through the force wall, gritting their teeth against the pain, while the Big Baddy Bad Bad steps back saying 'No, that's impossible!' Acts of heroic fortitude, the things that make heroes heroes, and not simply looters and assassins, that sort of thing. A fine line, I know.

Jothki
2009-08-27, 11:59 PM
Ability damage obviously isn't an 'effect', since it's instantaneous. IHSing out of ability damage would be like IHSing out of HP damage.

Frosty
2009-08-28, 01:49 AM
No, but I would suggest increasing the prerequisites for it (as it is, any character can snap it up in two feats). There's a precedent for that in the same book... two of the 1st-level Tiger Claw maneuvers require you to know a Tiger Claw maneuver before you can learn them.

Upping the pre-reqs to how much? I mean, by 5th level, a Warblade can still get it even if you make it require 4 IH maneuvers to get. Or do you jut want to make it harder to get for non-Warblades?

vasharanpaladin
2009-08-28, 01:56 AM
Make it harder to get for non-warblades, of course. Every maneuver required to get iron heart surge means a feat wasted for non-adepts. Two Iron Heart maneuvers as a prerequisite, then, makes it nearly a necessity to use all available instances of Martial Study. Three, and you'd have to use your take of Martial Stance, too.

Further, recall that if you don't start as a martial adept, you have no way of regaining maneuvers learned through Martial Study feats taken before you take your first level as a martial adept. So unlike the warblade, who can theoretically use iron heart surge every other round, a fighter with the same maneuver can only use it once during a given encounter.

Irreverent Fool
2009-08-28, 06:46 AM
Make it harder to get for non-warblades, of course. Every maneuver required to get iron heart surge means a feat wasted for non-adepts. Two Iron Heart maneuvers as a prerequisite, then, makes it nearly a necessity to use all available instances of Martial Study. Three, and you'd have to use your take of Martial Stance, too.

Further, recall that if you don't start as a martial adept, you have no way of regaining maneuvers learned through Martial Study feats taken before you take your first level as a martial adept. So unlike the warblade, who can theoretically use iron heart surge every other round, a fighter with the same maneuver can only use it once during a given encounter.

I think that's enough of a limiting factor right there.

obnoxious
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Frosty
2009-08-28, 12:35 PM
Well yeah but fighters have feats to spare anyways.

lsfreak
2009-08-28, 01:13 PM
-snip-

A one-level dip in warblade at level 9 still gets you IHS, unless you bump the prereqs up to 4 maneuvers (equivalent of 9th-level maneuvers) or adjust the level to 4th or 5th.

vasharanpaladin
2009-08-28, 03:51 PM
A one-level dip in warblade at level 9 still gets you IHS, unless you bump the prereqs up to 4 maneuvers (equivalent of 9th-level maneuvers) or adjust the level to 4th or 5th.

But! That still locks out people trying to get around a rule against using classes from the book. It eats your attack for the round. That should be enough of a drawback, and beyond that, the DM still has Rule Zero up his sleeve.

Irreverent Fool
2009-08-28, 04:40 PM
But! That still locks out people trying to get around a rule against using classes from the book. It eats your attack for the round. That should be enough of a drawback, and beyond that, the DM still has Rule Zero up his sleeve.

To simply disallow an ability that a player has specifically chosen for his character without telling him beforehand that it may not work that way is a good way to tick off the player and make things not fun. A DM is better off disallowing it beforehand and admitting that he doesn't think non-casters should have nice things and that he is unable to deal with a character who can simply shrug off the effects of something that had previously affected him.

Then, of course, that character can just invest heavily in diamond mind and replace his saves with Concentration checks, which DMs seem to have less of a problem with even though a skill check cannot fail on a natural 1 and even though it is quite easy to pump a single skill check to the point where a die roll becomes merely a formality.

obnoxious
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