[3.5] Is this asking too much of my players? (Players don't read please!)

[Pika...]

Pika,

So I just sent out an email to the group which I have hopefully founded for next week. The email concerned me requiring some things along with their character sheets (if they have the free time to make them that is).

I would like to know the your opinions on if this is asking too much:



Oh sorry, forgot a few things guys.

1) I forgot to mention that if you are able to make a character before our next/first session, please send it through me in a private email. I would like this so I could see if I can work the characters in better, and plan ahead a bit for each individual character.


1.5) In additon to your characters' sheets I do require a bare-minimum of fluff. Basically all I ask is at least (but you can always create more!) one paragraph of background for the character, and the following.


-At least one paragraph of background (as described above):

-At least two things your character is afraid of:

-At least three NPCs related to your character (Anything. Love interest, rival, parents, former instructor, etc.). All I ask is their name, relation to the character, and at least a sentence on them (but more is always welcome!):

-What deity/religion/pantheon your character follows, if any at all. If it follows a faith, how devoted/concerned with is your character to it (aka how big a part of it's life is it)? Please use my campaign's/cosmology's website's Deity page to choose what power you would like your character to worship, if you would like them to worship any that is:

-Finally, any character goals. (Optional. These can emerge during it's journey.):



Note: Please send me this, and if anything needs minor tweaking to fit better into my homebrewed world/setting/cosmology I would like to work with to change it a bit to make it fit in somewhere.

Notes 2: Please send this, along with a breakdown of your character sheet by a private email to em only.

Note 3: And thank you so much for being willing to play in my game!




Also, if the vet DMs have any advice for things you have found should be added to a list like this please let me know. I want to print out multiple copies of this, then hand them out to players to fill. Afterword I wish to hole-punch the sheets and place them in front of the PCs' character sheet copies which I keep in a binder when I DM to reference (the players update it each level-up).

Many thanks!

[Elfin]

This is definitely not too much. Enough to provide depth and adventure hooks in the campaign, but not so much that more hack'n'slash players will groan.

[Mystic Muse]

If this is asking too much I shudder to think what your group is going to be like.

[elliott20]

seems to me you're only asking them this so YOU can be better prepared for the game. I see no problem with this. Plus, it's not like you're asking them for much anyway. It's just a paragraph and a couple additional line items.

[Temet Nosce]

Seems pretty minimal to me, at least on the "fluff" part. I write up all that stuff by default though... If I'm DMing I definitely require a larger background than that also, and I tend to ask the players to use my custom sheets (which have multiple sections for various areas of background not found normally...)

The only possible issue I see is the bit about altering their characters. You might just talk to them in private if something is wrong with it, rather than sending that part to all of them like a warning (if I was a player and a DM specifically mentioned that kind of thing it would raise all kinds of red flags for me).

Seems pretty solid though.

[arguskos]

If this is asking too much I shudder to think what your group is going to be like.
It's too much in my group. Every damn time. :smallannoyed:

[Kizara]

The only thing I would have issue with is the 3 NPCs thing. My character backgrounds are just that: a background; they aren't 2-chapter prologes. I also like to develop my NPC connections in-game for the most part, and would not like having to give you pre-generated ideas.

This would be slightly mitigated if you were willing to let me RP the NPCs associated with my character (no questions asked, they are basically sub-PCs of mine with very minor impact on the plot). If you ask me to define such aspects I would be annoyed if you took that and ran in a different direction then I had in mind, as it might easily ret-con my character's background.

For instance:

If my character has a spitefire, fun-loving sister that's also (say) a journeyman wizard that helped mold his choices in life (competition, inspiration, maybe even some forbidden sexual innuendo, who knows?) and you RP her differently then I had in mind, it really screws with my suspension of disbelief and immersion because you are cracking my idea of a known part of my character's world. If, say you weren't as adept at playing a rapier wit character then I had in mind for her, or maybe you have her come across as too much of a bitch (cause you feel this is how sister's act) compared to what I have in mind, etc etc. At the least its going to start a argument, and its likely going to reduce my fun.

ESPECIALLY if this is a new DM/group, as that mutual understanding and trust is not there yet. I would feel confident that after a bit of discussion with my current DM (who is no god of DMing, but does a decent job) that he would RP the above NPC close enough to what I had in mind that it wouldn't throw off my own ideas.


NOW, all that aside, I commend your desire to personalize your game to your players and enable their character development and help them in roleplaying.

[Foryn Gilnith]

While it's not actually too much if you sit down and do it, the 3 NPCs part would irk me. (Name+relation+sentence)*3 is about two paragraphs. When I make a character, the focus is on that character. I'll say that he had a lover, or a gruff mentor, or loved and loving parents; but that's all. I'm not going to write a whole sentence about them.

It sounds odd, that I'm too lazy to write a sentence; but my background will usually have a solid four-to-six adjectives describing any relevant NPCs, which in some rare cases is more than I can say for my PC. :P

[valadil]

That's absolutely reasonable. I require a whole page of fluff and my players don't complain.

[Gnaeus]

If you are worried that they will grumble about it, you can always give them a small carrot. A little bit of xp, a small bonus on an appropriate skill, a cheap 1 use magic item. None of these will break the game, but players might be more inclined to work harder on background if they know they will get something out of it.

[shadzar]

:smallconfused:

That is almost the bare minimum a DM needs to run a game for people. I think you ask too little, and should have reminded them to bring the snacks since you are bringing the game.

[Foryn Gilnith]

To quantify my issue with your asking for NPCs:

That can be easily integrated into the background, while the others can't - yet you ask for it separately. If an NPC is important to my character, you'll get your sentence of description in the background as a vital part. If not, the writeup will go something like this:

Bob Farmer. Father. A bit dull, farmed his whole life, loves the PC.
Jill Farmer. Sister. A bit dull, farmed her whole life, misses the PC.


I can't integrate fears into the background with including a random anecdote about their cause (which breaks flow), and integrating religion into the background wouldn't elaborate on it enough. NPCs, however, are a natural part of the background, and asking me to separate them is extra work.

[Grumman]

-At least two things your character is afraid of:
What if he's a paladin? :smalltongue:

[Delwugor]

The 3 NPCs is probably the only thing I would question, but it really isn't that much extra to add to a character.

One caveat is that a character's goals may change as play progresses and their character (and the player) becomes more in tune with the campaign and setting. So you might even want to ask them to keep the information updated. You wouldn't want to add in a hook 6 months down the line for a character's goal that he doesn't care about anymore.

[Kylarra]

What if he's a paladin? :smalltongue:
Fight or ... fight some more! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0372.html)

[Tyndmyr]

Too much. Plus, it's limiting.

You've got plenty of character types that are either unafraid, or at least, wont admit to being afraid. NPCs...yeah, that can either be really tedious, or it can be skimmed by the characters, providing little info.

IMO, ask for race, class, alignment, and any background they care to provide. It's far more open-ended, and gives you the minimal information you need. Half the players will likely skip background, but thats ok. It can come up during roleplaying, it needn't be set in advance.

[Ecalsneerg]

What if he's a paladin? :smalltongue:

Dying before he levels up enough to become fearless :P

[shadow_archmagi]

I hate being told I need 3 NPCs. I already have the party to interact with, and all the crazy NPCs you're going to throw at me, so why bother?

Plus, as the DM, it's YOUR world. I'm not sure if the little town of Innsmouth has a sugar-mage, and whether it does or not is up to you. If you want me to have NPCs contacts, I'd really prefer that you read my finished background, and then add appropriate NPCs in.

IE: "Oh hey, Shadow, you recognize the old man as the schoolteacher from the school you exploded in your backstory"

[Keshay]

For instance:
If my character has a spitefire, fun-loving sister that's also (say) a journeyman wizard that helped mold his choices in life (competition, inspiration, maybe even some forbidden sexual innuendo, who knows?)

Uh, gross. What character are you playing? Ultimate Quicksilver?

The only thing that I find odd in the request for info is the "two things you're afraid of". What sort of fear are you talking about? Is this the "I'm afraid of dying old and alone" kind of fear, the "GET IT OFF ME involuntary resoponse to a spider on your shoulder", or a legitimate phobia?

Would this include "I'm afraid of Dragons"? Well, no kidding, they have a fear aura. "I'm afraid of Vampires." Well sure, they're bloodsucking, soulless monsters you're supposed to be afraid of them.

I'd be more clear as to what it is your asking for. If this is supposed to be irrational fears of otherwise mundane things, I'd have to consider such a character trait as a flaw, with the corresponding feat granted to offset the phobia(s).

[Foryn Gilnith]

It doesn't have to be "phobia" fear. It could be something like "I fear that we might have the good harvest years behind us", or "I fear that the aristocracy is becoming a tyranny".

[Kylarra]

Uh, gross. What character are you playing? Ultimate Quicksilver?

The only thing that I find odd in the request for info is the "two things you're afraid of". What sort of fear are you talking about? Is this the "I'm afraid of dying old and alone" kind of fear, the "GET IT OFF ME involuntary resoponse to a spider on your shoulder", or a legitimate phobia?

Would this include "I'm afraid of Dragons"? Well, no kidding, they have a fear aura. "I'm afraid of Vampires." Well sure, they're bloodsucking, soulless monsters you're supposed to be afraid of them.

I'd be more clear as to what it is your asking for. If this is supposed to be irrational fears of otherwise mundane things, I'd have to consider such a character trait as a flaw, with the corresponding feat granted to offset the phobia(s).I am afraid of rocks falling and everyone dying. :smallfrown:

[Grumman]

I am afraid of rocks falling and everyone dying. :smallfrown:
Or, for one of my characters: mindflayers, and paragon mindflayers.

*shakes fist at DM*

[shadzar]

Paladins must remain chaste right, so they have a fear of the opposite sex.

Also they fear their armor getting dirty.

[Chrono22]

This is a great idea! But, there is one more thing you need to include.
What conflicts (internal or external) does the character have at the beginning of the campaign?

[kamikasei]

I wouldn't say it's too much - it's certainly not more thought than you should be expecting your players to put in to their characters. However, it is perhaps a bit inflexible.

The general questions you want your players to consider are:
- Who is this character? What shaped him in to the person he is today?
- What does he want? What are his goals and drives? What motivates him?
- What are his affiliations? Who does he have ties to? When others label him, what are the labels? Which labels does he wear himself? What are the components of his identity?

The first and third categories cover NPCs. The second and third cover things like religion and ideology.

[Vortling]

It's not asking too much but if you're players are forward thinking you may not get NPCs with deep connections to the player. After all, backstory npcs exist to be slaughtered and abused by the DM. :smallwink:

[Kizara]

Uh, gross. What character are you playing? Ultimate Quicksilver?


I assume that's some sort of comic book reference? Its lost on me I'm afraid.


And the above post wasn't an excerpt from an actual character, it was just something I threw together to make an example. But yes, sometimes my RPing contains mature themes.

[Zadus]

What if he's a paladin? :smalltongue:

Injustice and the tolerance of evil

[Keshay]

I assume that's some sort of comic book reference? Its lost on me I'm afraid.

And the above post wasn't an excerpt from an actual character, it was just something I threw together to make an example. But yes, sometimes my RPing contains mature themes.

Yes, a comic book reference, in the Ulitmate Marvel Universe Quicksilver's twin sister is a free-spirited, magic dabbling, important driving force in his life who he just happens to be in a sexual relationship with. Until they both got killed.

[valadil]

I hate being told I need 3 NPCs. I already have the party to interact with, and all the crazy NPCs you're going to throw at me, so why bother?

Plus, as the DM, it's YOUR world. I'm not sure if the little town of Innsmouth has a sugar-mage, and whether it does or not is up to you. If you want me to have NPCs contacts, I'd really prefer that you read my finished background, and then add appropriate NPCs in.

IE: "Oh hey, Shadow, you recognize the old man as the schoolteacher from the school you exploded in your backstory"

I don't think the original email says that you have to be explicit about which background characters become in game NPCs, at least not the way I read it. Most character backstories will mention a parent, a mentor, and a friend. Those can easily emerge as your 3 NPCs. If you write a more elaborate background with dozens of NPCs, the GM is free to pick and choose which ones make it into game.

[OverdrivePrime]

What you're asking for is my standard M.O. on character creation. Sometimes when I'm trying to get to know a character, I'll fill out the ol' 100 question survey (http://www.geocities.com/poetess47/100questions.html) and send it to my DM.

If what you're asking for is two much for your players, I hope you can find a way to motivate them, otherwise I think you might be in for some headaches.

[Umael]

It depends on your group, but in my opinion, that shouldn't be too much.

Regarding the fear, I would make this more open-ended, unless you wanted to bring up these fears during the game itself as part of the overarching campaign plot ("Yes! You must all face - {dun dun DUNN!} - your worst nightmare!"). I would go for two "character weaknesses" for the PCs - be it fears, hatreds, vices, kyptonite, whatever, and maybe explain why these are issues for the PC.

As for the NPCs, unless they are compelling reasons*, they should be able to point out three of them easily in their backstory. Of course, they should feel comfortable with you portraying them, and if they don't, they should let you know (yes, Kizara, I'm responding to your point). They could just exist as background to help flesh out the PC, of course.

* - I have a character who started with NO NPCs connected to the character, and for good reason.

[Dr_Emperor]

It's not asking too much but if you're players are forward thinking you may not get NPCs with deep connections to the player. After all, backstory npcs exist to be slaughtered and abused by the DM. :smallwink:

Ah . . . the time I got 5 seperately built orphans questing for revenge against the things that had killed there parents. I didn't require NPCs, but they all told me if I had they still would have been orphans.

[Triaxx]

Were I the players? Yes. I prefer fly by the seat of my pants, develop as I go characters. I prefer to let my course of action and alignment define the character than a backstory I have to remember and stick to later. I make notes as I go when I add something I might need later.

[Kallisti]

I hardly think what you're asking is too much, but it certainly look...somewhat inflexible.

For example, one character I'm playing is a barbarian named Lirance Tiger-Eye. Two things he's afraid of? Ummmm... Uh... Well... Creautres with fear auras, and more creatures with fear auras? Pun-pun? I don't know, he has no phobias, his past is (weirdly enough for one of my characters) largely free of traumatic events, and...yeah.

My point is that there are some characters who just odn't fit that mold. I agree with whoever it was that said you're better off with more open-ended questions.

Just work-wise, though, that's a very reasonable request to make of your characters. Even a hack-n-slasher should know at leat that much about their character. Sadly, in my experiences Dm'ing, that has not always been the case. One guy once had literally no fluff whatever for his character--not even a name. He'd left the name slot completely blank. It bothered me in the extreme...

[Kizara]

I hardly think what you're asking is too much, but it certainly look...somewhat inflexible.

For example, one character I'm playing is a barbarian named Lirance Tiger-Eye. Two things he's afraid of? Ummmm... Uh... Well... Creautres with fear auras, and more creatures with fear auras? Pun-pun? I don't know, he has no phobias, his past is (weirdly enough for one of my characters) largely free of traumatic events, and...yeah.

Fear of injury that would prevent him from engaging in future fights, or hunting for his family, or otherwise fulfilling his self-image.

Fear of dishonor from losing a fight, failing someone that relied upon him, or otherwise not living up to his own standards of his ability.

It doesn't have to be a monster type.


I agree with the rest of what you said, just wanted to point out that if you think about the question a little more then knee-jerk reaction, you'll find you can easily come up with something non-angsty or cowardly for smashy types.

[Thajocoth]

It's good to have BGs with frayed edges the DM can take hold of and use. Requiring a few NPCs also prevents the all too common "Nobody knows my character. I've been wandering/killing/sleeping/adventuring forever." that makes a character so impervious to plot... But I don't really understand the three fears thing. Not everyone has them. Sure, I could name my top three IRL fears easily enough (food, needles, loss of hands/senses), but I wouldn't imagine that a tough fighter who enjoys a good battle fears much, if anything. Or a Halfling (It's, like, in their description...)

[woodenbandman]

That's a good amount to request.

[Pika...]

Well, to answer the fears thing, I got that part from an old thread I remember where an older played explained his requirements (the thread basically inspired this decision as well). Basically if a player says "Bravey the bod has no fears!!!", he asks "Does his classes, race, or anything else grant him the Fearless extraordinary ability? If not then he fears something.".

I personally agree with that. Even IRL the most badass marine who could pimp-slap Rambo like a ragdoll would probably still fear his family dying/getting abducted?

Plus, there are various spells which deal with one's fears (isn't Cause Fear lv.1?), so they have to target/unearth some fear(s) within the PCs to work don't they?

[Steward]

Plus, not everyone can really articulate three specific fears. Someone who thinks they're fearless just might have a poor imagination. The fears should be for the player even if the character doesn't realize it.

[Umael]

"Does his classes, race, or anything else grant him the Fearless extraordinary ability? If not then he fears something.".

I personally agree with that. Even IRL the most badass marine who could pimp-slap Rambo like a ragdoll would probably still fear his family dying/getting abducted?

Unfortunately, the implication is that there is a thing that the person in question will ALWAYS fear, like a phobia, while also ignoring possibility that someone which isn't normally a source of fear could become one. A lot of fears come unbidden and unexpected, and sometimes they lose their effectiveness, and sometimes they don't.

For example, I am not afraid of bears. But if a big grizzly, or worse, a polar bear, came into my home, mad with hunger, and the first indication I had of its presence was when it was roaring at me, only five feet away - I would get pretty scared. I would probably also remain scared as long as it was around. On the other hand, sometimes someone jumping out and saying "Boo!" would frighten me for a moment, and sometimes not.

Furthermore, talking about fears can get people to dwell on them and give them strength. The code of bushido doesn't say that the samurai aren't going to be afraid in battle, but that they must have courage to go on. Getting into the mindset of "there must be something I must fear, because the DM wants to know" can taint the ability of the ability of the player to get into the proper mindset of the character. Figuring out that, yes, the samurai is afraid of dying in battle, or yes, the samurai is afraid of failing his lord, can be alien to the way a samurai goes about his business - he must not accept the possibility of feeling his fear, he must not accept the possibility of failing his lord, he doesn't even think about these things, that can't be fear he is feeling, here, let me show you.

Fears don't necessarily encompass defining points of a person, even in real life. You don't have to have a phobia of heights, or spiders, or failure, or of harm befalling your family to just fear these things when it is appropriate. But since no one is perfect, it is good to see where the flaws are. It could be fear, but it could also be something like intolerance, greed, or an over-zealous nature. Asking your players to come up with two weaknesses would give a better idea as to both the ability of your players to immerse themselves into the mind of their characters and just how those same minds work.

For example, I could say that my character has a fear of heights and a fear of snakes, but is that nearly as defining as saying that my character is addicted to cocaine and denies that he has a problem? And would I want to put down that my character has a fear of heights if we were playing d20 Modern set in a big city with lots of skyscrapers, when I feel like you want to make my character afraid of even going on the roof? A lot of DMs use things like that for plot hooks and character development, but if we were playing d20 Modern, I might just make my fears be snakes and frogs and mention that you said we are playing in Toronto.

[Flickerdart]

What if he's a paladin? :smalltongue:
Then he falls, of course.

[Pika...]

Thank you all for the advice. I will reread it and see what I edit for next time.



If you are worried that they will grumble about it, you can always give them a small carrot. A little bit of xp, a small bonus on an appropriate skill, a cheap 1 use magic item. None of these will break the game, but players might be more inclined to work harder on background if they know they will get something out of it.

I LOVE this idea!

Here is what I am thinking:

"Forgot to mention something:

All those who send me their character's background paragraph+questionnaire before your first session joining the game may choose a single (non-magical) item worth up to 50gp free to add to our inventory. If you can weave it into the background fluff (a bit more than "dad gave it to me!") the item can be worth up to 150gp."


Thoughts?

[Umael]

Are you starting the game at 1st level?

Because if you are not, even 150gp isn't a lot.

And frankly, even at 1st level, 150gp may not be enough to motivate those who need the motivation most (depending on your players).

[Pika...]

Are you starting the game at 1st level?

Because if you are not, even 150gp isn't a lot.

And frankly, even at 1st level, 150gp may not be enough to motivate those who need the motivation most (depending on your players).

Level 1... >_>


Low-Wealth and Low-Magic world if it matters.

[Foryn Gilnith]

50 gold at first level? I'd hit that. Even go for the 150 if able, although I'd probably have difficulty weaving it in appropriately.

[Sipex]

The only thing I'd gripe about is the fear thing, why is it relevant? If you're running a horror campaign you should be trying to scare the players, their characters will usually respond accordingly.

I'd change that to "Name two greater dislikes" if you're just running a standard campaign.

[Umael]

50 gold at first level? I'd hit that. Even go for the 150 if able, although I'd probably have difficulty weaving it in appropriately.

So would I, but then, you don't need to bribe me to write a backstory for my PCs. If anything, you need to tell me what my maximum length needs to be.

[Thajocoth]

Oh, one thing my current DM asked for... We started 6th level with 13,000gp. He wanted any item worth more than 1,000gp explained in our bg. Adding a paragraph on how my character got his +1 Mythral Full Plate actually added a lot to the character as well as possible hooks the DM could use. You could easily require something similar... Since it's level 1, it'd be more along the lines of "explain one or two of your items in your bg", which you're even giving a gp bonus for doing it sounds like.