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Stegyre
2009-08-28, 09:57 AM
(I avoided using "cheese" in the thread title, this time.)

Like the title says, what races do you consider broken? I am thinking of both (a) races who are better, or much better, than their LA represents, and (b) races whose particular qualities can combine with a particular class or feat combination for almost Pun-Pun levels of this-will-really-spoil-your-campaign.

kamikasei
2009-08-28, 10:01 AM
Humans, dwarves, and warforged are all considered on the high end of +0 LA.

Almost all other races are not worth their LA, because the system sucks.

Black ethergaunts are a running joke at the moment, it seems. I think they have a low LA and cast as a wizard of higher level than their HD, or something?

Elans can be overpowered if the aberration type is abused via Alter Self. Same goes for planetouched, especially +0 LA lesser aasimar and tieflings. Elves, I think, due to their many racial proficiency feats, are favourite targets for the Embrace/Shun Shuffle.

Eldariel
2009-08-28, 10:04 AM
Elans can be overpowered if the aberration type is abused via Alter Self. Same goes for planetouched, especially +0 LA lesser aasimar and tieflings. Elves, I think, due to their many racial proficiency feats, are favourite targets for the Embrace/Shun Shuffle.

Lesser planetouched don't have the issue - they are Humanoids. Now, Neraphim and Racial Progression Planetouched on the other hand...

Also, Strongheart Halfling belongs on every list Human is in. Same with Silverbrow Human. And Anthropomorphic animals, especially the damn Bat. Finally, Whisper Gnomes are fairly good LA +0; many argue they should be LA +1.


For LA +1, mostly templates are somewhat too strong in Half-Minotaur, Feral, Mineral Warrior, Lolth-Touched and maybe Dark. Then again, LA is so expensive that even something as strong as those is only so strong since you're behind in Hit Dice and class levels.

Cyclocone
2009-08-28, 10:07 AM
IIRC, Black Ethergaunts are CR 17, 16 HD, +4 LA and casts as wizard 17.

Optimystik
2009-08-28, 10:10 AM
Also, Strongheart Halfling belongs on every list Human is in. Same with Silverbrow Human.

This. But I don't think any races are "broken." Some are stronger than others, but what really breaks the game are classes and feats, not races. After all, the really powerful races usually come with an LA that makes being a caster (or ToB meleer) quite painful, and not playing as a caster or ToB meleer means your character won't be broken.

MichielHagen
2009-08-28, 10:19 AM
Isn't Strongheart Halfling 3.0 and not 3.5?

And i believe Whisper Gnome to be a very strong race too.

Eldariel
2009-08-28, 10:23 AM
Isn't Strongheart Halfling 3.0 and not 3.5?

And i believe Whisper Gnome to be a very strong race too.

They're in Player's Guide to Faerun, which is a 3.5 source.

MichielHagen
2009-08-28, 10:26 AM
They're in Player's Guide to Faerun, which is a 3.5 source.

Good to know, the Faerun books are allowed in our group since last week :D

kamikasei
2009-08-28, 10:31 AM
Oh, and of course: kobolds.

Optimystik is right, though. Races are rarely all that broken except where they allow the use of a broken spell (as with Elans and Alter Self. It's not that Elan is broken, it's that Alter Self is way overpowered and interacts brokenly with certain otherwise innocuous races).

Cieyrin
2009-08-28, 10:32 AM
Whisper Gnomes are definitely under-LA'd but I love them nonetheless. +Dex, Con, 30' Move, Silence 1/day, ridiculous bonuses to Hide and Move Silently, all on a Small race for no LA is a steal that I'll happily take, no questions asked.

EDIT: Another thing with Elans is taking advantage of Psychic Warrior for Claws of the Beast and going through the Rapidstrike chain. Again, not the Elans themselves that make it broken, it's what you can do with them that is.

Jack Zander
2009-08-28, 10:35 AM
I personally think Pixies are broken. They've got Improved Invisiblity at will. That alone is worth it even for their +3 (I think) LA.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-08-28, 10:37 AM
Neraph, Whisper Gnome, Anthro, maybe Air Goblin, some Lesser Planetouched... the standard.

The templates already listed are nice.

Zeta Kai
2009-08-28, 10:45 AM
Whisper gnomes are pretty much the only race at my table that had their LA actually increased. I usually lower or eliminate LA for odd races, but not after our last campaign. I had a player running a whisper gnome rogue/sorcerer, & he could not be found. No matter how hard people looked for him, he was only visible when he chose to be. Nothing less than DM fiat could track him down. It was pretty cool, but that kinda sickness needed to be toned down.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-08-28, 10:48 AM
Try Mindsight, from Lords of Madness page 126. Darkstalker doesn't protect against it, nor does Mind Blank. It only gives the square, but you have area attacks for a reason. Get telepathy with a dip into mindbender.

Thrawn183
2009-08-28, 10:50 AM
I personally think Pixies are broken. They've got Improved Invisiblity at will. That alone is worth it even for their +3 (I think) LA.

I gotta disagree with this one. You start encountering inivisibility at level 3. With a LA of +4, you can't even play one till ECL 5. Yeah, if your group isn't used to dealing with invisibility then it's gonna shred some stuff, but when it's most useful (level 5) you also only have one actual class level to work with which isn't going to get you very much.

Eloel
2009-08-28, 10:53 AM
Whisper gnomes are pretty much the only race at my table that had their LA actually increased. I usually lower or eliminate LA for odd races, but not after our last campaign. I had a player running a whisper gnome rogue/sorcerer, & he could not be found. No matter how hard people looked for him, he was only visible when he chose to be. Nothing less than DM fiat could track him down. It was pretty cool, but that kinda sickness needed to be toned down.

To crank some numbers, at L1, with 4 ranks in hide, and 18 starting Dex (both completely reasonable), you have +17 to hide. That's ridiculous.

Zaq
2009-08-28, 11:00 AM
Dragonborn Raptorans just grate on me. Are they more powerful than, say, Azurin? No, probably not... but it just seems wrong that they should be able to combine the two best features of these races with no cost. (Dragonborn mostly lose their original racial features, but they keep any movement speeds they had. Therefore, a Raptoran who becomes a Dragonborn keeps his or her wings, freeing them up to take Breath or Heart in addition to having a fly speed. Mechanically, there is literally no reason to be, say, a Dragonborn Human over a Dragonborn Raptoran.)

Oh, and I hate Deep Imaskari. Wizards do not need to be better than they already are, but here we have a race specifically designed to make Wizards better. A bonus to INT, a penalty to DEX (hurts a hell of a lot less than the penalty to CON that gray elves get, and I hate gray elves too), and the ability to cast an extra first level spell every day (which helps a LOT when first level spells are all you have)? Yeah, that's necessary. Again, does it outshine a human in the long run? Probably not, but it bothers me that we have a race specifically made to make the best class in the game even better (particularly at low levels, when they actually have to be careful about the spells they cast).

Yuki Akuma
2009-08-28, 11:02 AM
I gotta disagree with this one. You start encountering inivisibility at level 3. With a LA of +4, you can't even play one till ECL 5. Yeah, if your group isn't used to dealing with invisibility then it's gonna shred some stuff, but when it's most useful (level 5) you also only have one actual class level to work with which isn't going to get you very much.

They have greater invisibility.

Also, they can fly. This right here is basically a win against anything. Invisibility is bad enough on a 2D scale, when you have to guess height as well...

Berserk Monk
2009-08-28, 11:04 AM
Humans, dwarves, and warforged are all considered on the high end of +0 LA.

Humans? Na, I disagree. They don't get that much stuff.

Also, goliaths. LA +1 and look at all the stuff they get.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-08-28, 11:13 AM
Probably not, but it bothers me that we have a race specifically made to make the best class in the game even better (particularly at low levels, when they actually have to be careful about the spells they cast).

Eh, CoDzilla would argue that wizards aren't best. Argue, mind you.

Deep Imaskari might be a case where you want to break out roleplaying restrictions.


They have greater invisibility.

Also, they can fly. This right here is basically a win against anything. Invisibility is bad enough on a 2D scale, when you have to guess height as well...
See Invisibility/See the Unseen/etc.. Blindsense/Blindsense/Mindsight. Wind Wall. Hold Portal, for Ao's sake.

kamikasei
2009-08-28, 11:14 AM
Humans? Na, I disagree. They don't get that much stuff.

A feat and a skillpoint? I generally see little mechanical reason to take any other +0 class.

LibraryOgre
2009-08-28, 11:14 AM
Humans? Na, I disagree. They don't get that much stuff.

What they get, though is flexibility. A free, unfettered-but-for-prereqs feat (something most other characters only get 7 of) is a pretty good bonus, especially when compared to static skill bonuses that may or may not apply to your character idea, and static bonuses to hit monsters that you likely won't encounter after 5th level or so.

Sure, that was part of the idea of humans... they're flexible. However, compared to what others get, it's a very nice bonus.

Doc Roc
2009-08-28, 11:22 AM
Also, Strongheart Halfling belongs on every list Human is in. Same with Silverbrow Human. And Anthropomorphic animals, especially the damn Bat.

Bats, why'd it have to be bats?

Kylarra
2009-08-28, 11:24 AM
A feat and a skillpoint? I generally see little mechanical reason to take any other +0 class.
Also ease of multiclassing, for the DMs that enforce it.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-08-28, 11:27 AM
Humans? Na, I disagree. They don't get that much stuff.


Wot? Human is without a doubt the most powerful core race. Outside of core they are still one of the very best. A Bonus feat goes a long way.

9mm
2009-08-28, 11:29 AM
Bats, why'd it have to be bats?

because Wisards are the godamn batman?

Doc Roc
2009-08-28, 11:31 AM
because Wisards are the godamn batman?

I believe, sir, that you just crossed the streams.

:: explodes ::

kamikasei
2009-08-28, 11:33 AM
Also ease of multiclassing, for the DMs that enforce it.

There are no such creatures. You're just trying to scare me.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-08-28, 11:39 AM
Since Prestige Classes are somehow arbitrarily and stupidly exempt, most builds have nothing to worry about.

lsfreak
2009-08-28, 11:45 AM
Since Prestige Classes are somehow arbitrarily and stupidly exempt, most builds have nothing to worry about.

Classes are purely metagame concepts, the fact that characters are punished in-character for doing their job is pretty arbitrary. :smalltongue:

Yora
2009-08-28, 11:52 AM
When I create new races that don't have fancy supernatural abilities or a bonus to mental ability scores, I make a 1st level fighter of the race. Then I make a human with the same base ability scores and add or substract fighter levels until both characters have about equal scores in most aspects.

A 3rd level human fighter is as good as a 1st level lizardfolk fighter with two racial HD. So I set LA to +0. (It's basically +5 natural armor for 3 feats.)
That can be a bit work intensive when done with many races, and probably won't work to well when lots of magic gets involved.

AB
2009-08-28, 11:52 AM
Whisper Gnome is good, Lesser Aasimar is good, both for LA +0, `cause they get supreme attribute bonuses and some nice special abilities.

Strongheart Halfling is good, since it gets the human bonus feat + some halfling abilities (and is of small size).

Apart from that? Donīt take LA-races, it`s mostly not worth it.

Fax Celestis
2009-08-28, 11:54 AM
Strongheart Halfling is good, since it gets the human bonus feat + some halfling abilities (and is of small size).

My favorite thing with Strongheart Halflings? Take Luck of Heroes as your bonus feat.

Now, instead of your plain ol' halfling +1 to saves, you get a +1 luck to all saves and a +1 luck to your AC.

Emy
2009-08-28, 12:01 PM
Since Prestige Classes are somehow arbitrarily and stupidly exempt, casters have nothing to worry about.

Fixed. Melee, on the other hand...

Foryn Gilnith
2009-08-28, 12:05 PM
Classes are purely metagame concepts, the fact that characters are punished in-character for doing their job is pretty arbitrary. :smalltongue:

And the fact that it's applied inconsistently multiplies the arbitrariness...

OMG PONIES
2009-08-28, 12:12 PM
A friend of mine told me he played an amazing Greensnake Naga, but I can't find them anywhere. It sounds pretty great--he told me they had bonuses to every physical stat as well as INT, for a +1 LA. I call shenanigans.

UserClone
2009-08-28, 12:19 PM
Those are in either the Oriental Adventures rulebook or (and I think it's this one) Rokugan Campaign setting.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-08-28, 12:20 PM
Google. greensnake naga. Oriental Adventures page 173 (stats)/203 (LA)

Random832
2009-08-28, 12:23 PM
Black ethergaunts are a running joke at the moment, it seems. I think they have a low LA and cast as a wizard of higher level than their HD, or something?

Yes. All three kinds of Ethergaunts do this, but Black ones are IIRC the most powerful. Their wizard casting is at least lower than their HD+LA, but as powerful Abberations they have all sorts of other features.

Kelpstrand
2009-08-28, 01:14 PM
1) Deep Imaskari: Still worse than Dragonborn Fire or Gray Elves. -2 str or Cha is better than -2 dex. And Dragonborn is better than one extra first level spell.

2) Black Etherguants: Yes, they get some powerful abilities. At level 20. When any Wizard can cast Shapechange all day.

3) At OP. Short answer: none.

Long answer: Zodar, Efferti, and Sarruks.

Not because of what you can do by being that race, but what you can do by being another character and using that race.

Optimystik
2009-08-28, 01:26 PM
My favorite thing with Strongheart Halflings? Take Luck of Heroes as your bonus feat.

Now, instead of your plain ol' halfling +1 to saves, you get a +1 luck to all saves and a +1 luck to your AC.

"Instead?" Don't they stack?
SRD has the regular halfling bonus as a racial bonus, not a luck bonus.

Fax Celestis
2009-08-28, 01:31 PM
"Instead?" Don't they stack?
SRD has the regular halfling bonus as a racial bonus, not a luck bonus.

Right, but the Strongheart Halfling with Luck of Heroes is exactly the same as the regular halfling, but with an additional +1 AC.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-08-28, 01:34 PM
Except the Strongheart Halfling now doesn't have the option to take Luck of Heroes again. Isn't that a regional feat anyway?

But yes, that is quite wonky.

UserClone
2009-08-28, 01:50 PM
Right, he can't take it again, but I think Fax was trying to point out that at level 1, both halflings would be exactly the same, except the Strongheart gets an extra AC, so it is very clear that they are not balanced. And Luck of Heroes is not even close to being the best feat out there.

I'm a fan of the Ghostwise Halfling. I feel like they get no love. :smallfrown:

Optimystik
2009-08-28, 01:52 PM
Right, but the Strongheart Halfling with Luck of Heroes is exactly the same as the regular halfling, but with an additional +1 AC.

Just the AC, or the saves too?

In other words, would a Strongheart with LoH have +1 to all saves, or +2?

The Rose Dragon
2009-08-28, 01:53 PM
Just the AC, or the saves too?

In other words, would a Strongheart with LoH have +1 to all saves, or +2?

+1. Strongheart Halflings don't have the normal halfling bonus to saves.

Fax Celestis
2009-08-28, 01:54 PM
Just the AC, or the saves too?

In other words, would a Strongheart with LoH have +1 to all saves, or +2?

+1.

I mean, you could be a Lightfoot with LoH, and have +1 AC, +2 all saves, but the intent is that Strongheart with LoH as a bonus feat is better than a Lightfoot. And since Stronghearts get a free feat, taking LoH puts them at the same place feat-quantitatively.

Optimystik
2009-08-28, 02:01 PM
+1. Strongheart Halflings don't have the normal halfling bonus to saves.

:facepalm:

I missed that bit. What a dummy I am. :smallredface:

So they traded in their +1 to saves for a free feat, and nobody at WotC minded? Ha!

Fax Celestis
2009-08-28, 02:05 PM
:facepalm:

I missed that bit. What a dummy I am. :smallredface:

So they traded in their +1 to saves for a free feat, and nobody at WotC minded? Ha!

Exactly. And with that free feat, you can get a +1 to saves AND AC. It's just...lolwut.

sadi
2009-08-28, 02:05 PM
There are no such creatures. You're just trying to scare me.

Unfortunately I have sighted several of them.

Anyway to answer the question, what races always show up recommended to play ,strongheart halflings, whisper gnomes, humans, amorphic blah. If the vast majority of people suggest playing something it's probably stronger than it should be. Kobolds are only bad if you allow players to start at venerable. Of course I also believe the greater rite of passage is meant to make up for multiclassing or a prestige class that loses a caster level.

Kyeudo
2009-08-28, 02:17 PM
To crank some numbers, at L1, with 4 ranks in hide, and 18 starting Dex (both completely reasonable), you have +17 to hide. That's ridiculous.

You're not trying hard enough. Here's (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=25495) a 1st level character with a +27 bonus to Hide. I could get it higher and faster if I used Whisper Gnome instead of Desert Halfling.

Cieyrin
2009-08-28, 02:32 PM
Poisondusk Lizardfolk are pretty damn good for LA +1, as I recall. Kinda like what a kobold would be if they were advanced.

Talya
2009-08-28, 03:07 PM
While in general, Level Adjusted races are poor choices from an optimizing angle, there are exceptions that relate to specific builds. Goliaths, and to a lesser extent, Catfolk, can certainly both be worthwhile depending what you are doing with them, for the cost of +1 LA. (Those are just two examples of many.)

Fax Celestis
2009-08-28, 03:13 PM
While in general, Level Adjusted races are poor choices from an optimizing angle, there are exceptions that relate to specific builds. Goliaths, and to a lesser extent, Catfolk, can certainly both be worthwhile depending what you are doing with them, for the cost of +1 LA. (Those are just two examples of many.)

D'hin'ni. +1 LA for +Cha, prestidigitation at will, and some other bonii.

Stegyre
2009-08-28, 03:27 PM
Exactly. And with that free feat, you can get a +1 to saves AND AC. It's just...lolwut.
Thanks for all of the comments. This sort of thing, in particular, is what I had in mind. It may not be the epitome of broken, but imo it is a "wrong" application of race choice and something I want to be alert to.