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arguskos
2009-08-28, 12:16 PM
So, I have a player in my 3.5 game who is completely apathetic. We're making characters for our first session, and they just flat-out refuse to make anything. Their logic is "well, the class I want isn't available, and I can't think of anything else I want, so I just won't do anything at all." I am getting to the point that my patience is stretching to the breaking point.

The other thing is, I can't kick them out (social obligations, just accept this point). Please, don't suggest I tell them to GTFO, it's not an option.

All this said, how do I deal with a player who just doesn't seem to care, but when asked, claims they're having fun. They never interact in character or out of it, they just roll dice and mope when stuff doesn't go their way (which is all the time, because they never DO anything). How do I encourage them to actually give a **** about anything?!

Dixieboy
2009-08-28, 12:20 PM
Tell them to GTFO.

I know you said that we shouldn't suggest it, but seriously?
Do it.

Or don't tell them when the next session will be, it doesn't really look like they'd care anyway. (Sidenote: How do you have fun by sitting around a couple of guys playing D&D without talking to anyone?)

arguskos
2009-08-28, 12:21 PM
Tell them to GTFO.

I know you said that we shouldn't suggest it, but seriously?
Do it.

Or don't tell them when the next session will be, it doesn't really look like they'd care anyway.
Ok, if I do this, I will suffer out of game for it for a LOOOOONG time. This person cannot be removed, simply trust me on this one.

Yuki Akuma
2009-08-28, 12:21 PM
Give him a pre-generated character.

A Complete Warrior Samurai. With ranged attack feats.

Sipex
2009-08-28, 12:23 PM
Offer bonuses for taking initiative (not rolling it, taking it). I give my players bonus exp when they come up with crafty plans and praise when they participate.

Also, give the active players good things. John made a good backstory? Go with it and if the other player mopes then tell him "Well, if you gave me something to work with you'd have cool stuff too."

Finally, just stop caring. If he says he's having fun and won't say what's wrong then just let him play how he wants.

Edit: Also, yes to the pre-gen character idea.

Dixieboy
2009-08-28, 12:24 PM
Questions two I have more: why are they even rolling dice if they haven't made a character yet? (Or rather "Isn't going to make one)

What do the other players think?

Shademan
2009-08-28, 12:24 PM
dunno, seems like they would rather play a video-game

arguskos
2009-08-28, 12:26 PM
Finally, just stop caring. If he says he's having fun and won't say what's wrong then just let him play how he wants.

Edit: Also, yes to the pre-gen character idea.
In response to just going "eh, whatever": I've been doing that, but at times, I need something from the players, like "what are you actually playing?" It helps when they answer that question, don't you think? :smallwink:

About the Pre-Gen: I could do that I guess... but then if it's not something they'll like, I'll hear about it forever. :smallannoyed: Besides, I'm busy with doing other things. Sadly though, I might just have to do it anyways.

@Dixieboy: We haven't started this campaign yet, so they aren't currently. It was a reference to the player's behavior in other games I've run.

bosssmiley
2009-08-28, 12:27 PM
Ok, if I do this, I will suffer out of game for it for a LOOOOONG time. This person cannot be removed, simply trust me on this one.

So it's a sibling, or a gamer's girlfriend then. :smallannoyed:

Hand them a pre-gen, let them bumble along, and so long as they don't bogart all the snacks just consider them a casual player.

Yuki Akuma
2009-08-28, 12:27 PM
Why are you even friends with this person?

Elfin
2009-08-28, 12:28 PM
Really, this guy is just a problem...but if getting rid of them isn't an option, then just give them a pregenerated character. Maybe they'll pick up the initiative.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-08-28, 12:28 PM
Finally, just stop caring. If he says he's having fun and won't say what's wrong then just let him play how he wants.

Edit: Also, yes to the pre-gen character idea.
I agree. If he's not causing a problem to the other players, ignore him. You've already tried to get through to him/her, now it's her turn to put in some support. If her inactivity is actually causing a stall in the game (such as during character creation), do something that will let you move on and maybe nudge him/her to action.

Yuki Akuma
2009-08-28, 12:28 PM
Why are you even dating this person?

:smallwink:

arguskos
2009-08-28, 12:30 PM
*sigh* They're a fine person, just not in games. I'll probably just give them a pre-gen and leave it at that.

Kroy
2009-08-28, 12:30 PM
What class does she want to play?

arguskos
2009-08-28, 12:31 PM
What class does she want to play?
Wizard. I don't use Wizards or Sorcerers in my setting (which is large, complex, full of houserules, custom material, and all sorts of class tweaks.

Yuki Akuma
2009-08-28, 12:32 PM
How about Wu Jen? It's basically the same except with less OMGWTF craziness.

Elfin
2009-08-28, 12:33 PM
How about a dragon shaman, hexblade, duskblade, or the like?

arguskos
2009-08-28, 12:33 PM
How about Wu Jen? It's basically the same except with less OMGWTF craziness.
They dislike the flavor, and don't want to change it.

@Elvenblade: They only play full casters, no melee. :smallannoyed:

Basically, the class needs to be a full caster, arcane, and have vast versatility. Anything else is not usable. Read: Wizard.

erikun
2009-08-28, 12:34 PM
Wizard. I don't use Wizards or Sorcerers in my setting (which is large, complex, full of houserules, custom material, and all sorts of class tweaks.
Cloistered Cleric or Archivist, then?

JeenLeen
2009-08-28, 12:35 PM
I'm amused how the assumption has slowly gravitated to the person being the OP's girlfriend. :smalltongue: But, seriously, don't pester the guy; the reason is tangental and it seems for some reason it's not data that can be offered out.

A pre-generated character, and integrating rules where bonus xp or items are awarded to characters that show good roleplaying or initiative in game, sounds a good plan. The pregen will get the player playing, and the systems of awards may help draw them in. Perhaps the class they want isn't available now, but you let them know it might become a PrC or multiclass option later as a bonus for roleplaying?


Edit: I see the conversation shifted a fair bit while I was posting. Dread Necromancer lacks some versatility and might alignment (or houserule) issues, but it fits.
Bard or modified wizard/sorcerer?

Yuki Akuma
2009-08-28, 12:36 PM
I'm amused how the assumption has slowly gravitated to the person being the OP's girlfriend. :smalltongue:

He said she was. Then deleted his post. I should have quoted it.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-08-28, 12:36 PM
Factotum is versatile as heck. Like a wizard, except you don't have to pay or search for your spells, you just select them from the list with Arcane Dilettante. You're only going to be a level or two behind pure casters.

Umael
2009-08-28, 12:37 PM
I think the root of this problem is buried WAAAYYY below the issue of it being an RPG.

I also think that if we are going to provide any kind of useful feedback, we need something to go on.

Like, who is this person in relation to you, and why is this person in your group in the first place?

shadzar
2009-08-28, 12:37 PM
Do they know how to play?

Give them a character sheet for a fighter but write "Wizard" in the place where it says class. :smallsmile:

arguskos
2009-08-28, 12:37 PM
He said she was. Then deleted his post. I should have quoted it.
I did so because it was irrelevant to the discussion. Let it drop, if you would be so kind. I shouldn't have said anything to begin with.

Umael, I don't see why it matters who it is. And you can figure it out, if you really want from the context clues, it's not too hard.

Yuki Akuma
2009-08-28, 12:37 PM
Archivist. At higher levels he can cast any spell ever.

UserClone
2009-08-28, 12:38 PM
What level is the game? I'm sure someone here will be willing to make a decent character, that does what the player wants it to, without going against your house rules, and that way everyone can be happy.

arguskos
2009-08-28, 12:39 PM
What level is the game? I'm sure someone here will be willing to make a decent character, that does what the player wants it to, without going against your house rules, and that way everyone can be happy.
Level 1, for now. It's a fresh campaign. Also, I can actually get around to finishing the houserule list sometime tonight. I'll probably post something up later.

Umael
2009-08-28, 12:40 PM
I did so because it was irrelevant to the discussion. Let it drop, if you would be so kind. I shouldn't have said anything to begin with.

Umael, I don't see why it matters who it is. And you can figure it out, if you really want from the context clues, it's not too hard.

Okay, yes, the first part I gathered, but that does NOT answer the second part (why is she in your group) AND it brings up two more questions:

Why do you think this relationship is immaterial to the discussion at hand?

Would you rather everyone just drop the issue, period?

UserClone
2009-08-28, 12:41 PM
Yeah you should post that, along with a list of resources available. I'm fond of character generation, and I know lots of other people on these boards also are. I'm sure we could come up with something upon which the two of you could agree.

Sallera
2009-08-28, 12:42 PM
Well, there really isn't much you can do when someone's being intentionally stubborn. I mean, such behaviour might be understandable if she was attached to a particular character concept, but as you say she's not really a roleplayer... if she's not even willing to refluff a class that would, essentially, do just about everything she wants? Sounds like this isn't something that can be solved in-game.

arguskos
2009-08-28, 12:42 PM
Okay, yes, the first part I gathered, but that does NOT answer the second part (why is she in your group) AND it brings up two more questions:

Why do you think this relationship is immaterial to the discussion at hand?

Would you rather everyone just drop the issue, period?
She is in the group because she wished to play D&D. I taught her, and it was good for awhile.

As for why it doesn't matter, this is about dealing with a difficult player, not problemsolving my relationship. I wanted this thread to contain good advice for anyone with a supremely difficult player they had to deal with.

At this point, my wishes are irrelevant. People will comment on my relationship now regardless if I ask nicely or not. I shouldn't have said anything, but I slipped up. :smallsigh:

Anyways, thank you all for the help so far, it's been useful.

@FlWiPig: Yeah, I probably will later this evening. It's a large, long document, so it's not really done yet. :smallsigh:

Foryn Gilnith
2009-08-28, 12:45 PM
I wanted this thread to contain good advice for anyone with a supremely difficult player they had to deal with.

There is never any universal advice. It always depends on the complex person who's being difficult. Any other advice, while it may work, is somewhat crippled. Getting non-crippled advice may not be worth the price of disclosure, though, so I'll respect your wish for privacy. I just don't think there's much to say.

Jack Zander
2009-08-28, 12:48 PM
But that changes the strategy sigificantly. Now we can give you actual answers that will help your problem, instead of just specualtions.

If this is your girlfriend, then there are several things you can do.

I suggest sitting down and talking with her outside of the group about it. Tell her that you feel like she doesn't enjoy playing and you'd like to do something about it. If she says that she does enjoy it, tell her she acts like she doesn't, and its making your job as DM more difficult. Ask her what kind of encounters she would like, and also try to lossen up your campaign restraints a bit to appeal to her. Since I don't know all of your houserules, its hard for me to come up with a good solution, but try offering her other classes that fit, or retool the wizard a bit. Finally, you might have to tell her that shes causing problems in your group and it would be best for her to sit out this campaign until the next one where she can play a wizard. DnD and relationships are two seperate things and she should be understanding of that.

arguskos
2009-08-28, 12:50 PM
There is never any universal advice. It always depends on the complex person who's being difficult. Any other advice, while it may work, is somewhat crippled. Getting non-crippled advice may not be worth the price of disclosure, though, so I'll respect your wish for privacy. I just don't think there's much to say.
Perhaps you are correct. I dunno, I just don't want this to turn into a relationship advice thread, there's already one of those over in FB. :smalltongue:

Well, given that there seems to be little I can do in my situation, I'll probably just make a pre-gen and summarily ignore them until and unless they show some initiative. I've offered all sorts of prizes and incentives in the past, with little success, so perhaps it's time to simply let well enough alone. They seem to enjoy themselves (by admission, not by observation) anyways.

@Jack Zander: Tried that talk 5+ times. I mostly get ignored. I haven't suggested she not play, since I really believe she enjoys playing, it's just that her fun and everyone else's fun doesn't coincide much.

Tequila Sunrise
2009-08-28, 12:52 PM
I say don't even give the player a pregen. If she (?) can't even summon the will to pick a class/race/basic stuff, tell her she's welcome to hang out while you play and that if she gets inspired to make a character she's welcome to join. Making a pregen for an apathetic player just seems like way too much bending over backwards, with bad results likely.

erikun
2009-08-28, 12:53 PM
Well, it sounds like you're stuck between two absolutes. On the one hand, you WILLNOT change your homebrew. On the other hand, you WILLNOT get rid of the problem player.

The issue, though, is that this isn't the last time you're going to run into this problem - and don't assume it'll always come from your girlfriend. What if your players do something which you feel is incompatable with your game world? What if something happens when one of the players can't make it to the regularly scheduled times? Are you going to bend your rules to accommodate the player(s)? Or will it be "No, not at my table"?

It is something that happens with surprising frequency. What takes priority, the players or the game? (Remember that you have no game without players.)

As for this situation, you have a couple of options. You could let them run a Wizard, changing your restriction to allow them in game. (Why no Wizards when there are Warlocks, Bards, and Cleric running around?) You could say that they're on a quest for recovering lost lore, and one of the few of their class in the world. You could offer them something similar, such as a Cloistered Cleric, Archivist, or Warlock. You could have them run an important PC as the DM aid, or let them work with you by rolling for you and acting as a co-DM.

Or, heck, you could have them just come over to relax. If the problem is that they don't want to play, I don't see why they need to leave the house if the aren't running a PC.

There are several things they could do to still participate. Still, if it comes down to a "She want to play a Wizard - I want to ban all Wizards" situation, you need to decide which option is more important.

UserClone
2009-08-28, 12:55 PM
Here's what I say:

Maybe she isn't interested because she's upset that she didn't get to play the class she wanted, and isn't skilled enough to make a character within your house rules that does the same type of schtick. So rather than being obstinate gamers, why don't we reach out and help her, giving her the benefit of the doubt?

FoE
2009-08-28, 12:55 PM
Honestly, Arguskos, this thing isn't so much a gaming question as the dilemma facing every boyfriend whose girlfriend insists they give up a hobbby. This scenario is only slightly different in that she insists on being at the table and ruining your game.

The simple fact is that you can't "force" someone to participate in D&D. You face a choice between "the game" and "the girl". Either game without her or give it up altogether.

Alternatively, try playing some other system and see if she likes that better.

ScreamingDoom
2009-08-28, 12:55 PM
She is in the group because she wished to play D&D. I taught her, and it was good for awhile.


So what changed? Why is it now suddenly not good? Is it because, previously, she played a Wizard and now she can't?



As for why it doesn't matter, this is about dealing with a difficult player, not problemsolving my relationship. I wanted this thread to contain good advice for anyone with a supremely difficult player they had to deal with.


The reasons for and relationships of a problem player are critical to the solving of the problem. It's a social issue, not one that can be solved via mechanics, so the relationship is very much relevant to the solution.

That said, the easiest solution (since tossing her out is impossible) would be to just let her be a Wizard. Bend a little on your setting. If you do this right, it can be an excellent way to entourage her to roleplay more and interact with the rest of the party. If Wizards existed previously in your setting, have her be an ancient wizard who was put into some kind of suspended animation and is released -- accidentally or purposefully -- by the party. If they simply do not exist, then have her be a Wizard who screwed up some Planeswalking and ended up trapped in a reality in which the rules she's used to are quite different. She can play up the confusion when things don't quite work how she expects.

If you truly cannot bend the setting for whatever reason, cannot get rid of her, then why not just start a new campaign in a new world in which Wizards exist? Yes, you lose all the work you did creating it, but you're not really giving much other option. Since the party is 1st level anyway, from their perspective they aren't losing anything.

Painful option? Yes. But if neither you nor she is willing to be a little flexible...

Alternatively, you could give the DM reigns to her instead and become a player yourself.

arguskos
2009-08-28, 01:01 PM
Well, I was going to type a big long bit to Erikun, but, it doesn't matter really. I've been too stubborn, so I'll just do the right thing, and toss my work out the window in exchange for making someone important happy. :smallredface:

Thanks for the help folks. I appreciate it.

Sipex
2009-08-28, 01:02 PM
One thing you guys have to remember is since this is his girlfriend he faces the ever-looming threat of his players assuming she gets benefits just because she's boning the DM...and that never ends well.

If you want to modify your rules talk to your players then, say you know she is having trouble and see if your friends have any input on what to do. They know both you and her much more than any of us do.

lsfreak
2009-08-28, 01:04 PM
Archivist can get their hands on a lot of wizard/sorc spells if you'll let her. Another option for "arcane with lots of options" might be binder from ToM, which is a highly versatile class with tons of fluff. Biggest problem will be that a lot of the options are for more melee roles, which might turn her off to the idea. Factotums are generally regarded as very good for such situations, though I haven't gotten around to actually reading how they work yet. Bard/sublime chord running Dragonfire Inspiration won't be as versatile as a wizard but certain fills the batman role pretty well.

(EDIT: A lot of these options boil down to why exactly you don't allow wizards/sorcs. If it's purely fluff reasons, refluff the above examples to fit better. If it's balance reasons, the DFIbard/sublimechord and archivist are probably out unless you're willing to work on fixing available spells).

DeathQuaker
2009-08-28, 01:10 PM
I'm sorry you're having trouble, arguskos. It sounds like a really frustrating situation.

But whether you want to admit it or not, a problem like this IS a social problem, not a gaming problem. We're talking about someone who is not willing to compromise, someone who is being passive aggressive with the GM so that they can get exactly what they want at the cost of everyone else's fun (and likewise, perhaps, the GMs unwillingness to shift to a gaming paradigm that the other player or players might be more passionate about because... why?). There is absolutely nothing with pen, rulebook, or dice that can be done about it. There's an underlying power-and-control issue here, and until you're willing to acknowledge it exists and deal with it, it will exist no matter what you try to do in-game.

Good luck, but a gaming forum full of strangers is unlikely to provide you the answer you need in this case. Sorry. :smallfrown:

Umael
2009-08-28, 01:10 PM
She is in the group because she wished to play D&D. I taught her, and it was good for awhile.

Is there anyway you could go back to what make the game fun before?



As for why it doesn't matter, this is about dealing with a difficult player, not problemsolving my relationship. I wanted this thread to contain good advice for anyone with a supremely difficult player they had to deal with.

But it's not just about dealing with a difficult player, but dealing with a difficult player while keeping your relationship healthy AND keeping the game fun for everyone.

Look, if she played D&D for a while with you and it was good, there has to be something that interests her. But since you don't want this to be about your player, let me give you a list of possibilities for handling any number of different difficult players:

1) Let it be.
Accept your situation as best you can.

2) Coax and cater to the player.
"What would you like to play? Okay, we can do that. What do you want from the game? That would be fun. Are you sure you are having fun? Is there anything else I can do for you?"

3) Invite the player to step up.
"You wanted combat. I gave offered your character a chance to go exploring the DEADLY WASTES OF DEATH, where I had planned for you to encounter 20 war-crazied cyber-orcs."

4) Limit the damage.
"Here's your character sheet. I'm having you play a {class/race combo}. Your PC's job is {appropriate role}."

5) Play hardball.
"I gave you all these options, you refused them. I'm trying to DM, but it's getting to be a lot more work and much less reward then I want to do. That's why I had your PC out for the game session - you didn't want to do anything, so nothing happened to you."

6) Kick the player out.
...which I gather was nixed before the idea of starting this thread every occured.

7) End the game.
When all else fails...

arguskos
2009-08-28, 01:12 PM
(EDIT: A lot of these options boil down to why exactly you don't allow wizards/sorcs. If it's purely fluff reasons, refluff the above examples to fit better. If it's balance reasons, the DFIbard/sublimechord and archivist are probably out unless you're willing to work on fixing available spells).
It's mechanics, but as I said above, it doesn't matter now. I'll just allow any official 3.5 material. I already told her, and we're working on a character. Hopefully, this solves the issue.

It also inadvertantly shafts my campaign world up the ass, but oh well. That's the price I pay for my stubborn refusal to change I guess. :smallredface:

Name_Here
2009-08-28, 01:14 PM
That said, the easiest solution (since tossing her out is impossible) would be to just let her be a Wizard. Bend a little on your setting. If you do this right, it can be an excellent way to entourage her to roleplay more and interact with the rest of the party. If Wizards existed previously in your setting, have her be an ancient wizard who was put into some kind of suspended animation and is released -- accidentally or purposefully -- by the party. If they simply do not exist, then have her be a Wizard who screwed up some Planeswalking and ended up trapped in a reality in which the rules she's used to are quite different. She can play up the confusion when things don't quite work how she expects.

This is definitely the easiest but in many ways it's the absolute worst that you can do. You will permanently alienate her from everybody else in the game because all they'll see is the GM bending the rule that they weren't even able to touch on character creation. Everybody knows what happens then it'll keep on prickling under the skin and they will start to backtalk and rebel.

If it was any other player I would say go this route but the second they think your GF is calling the shots they will lose respect for you.


If you truly cannot bend the setting for whatever reason, cannot get rid of her, then why not just start a new campaign in a new world in which Wizards exist? Yes, you lose all the work you did creating it, but you're not really giving much other option. Since the party is 1st level anyway, from their perspective they aren't losing anything.

Painful option? Yes. But if neither you nor she is willing to be a little flexible...

This unfortunately is the best option because it doesn't make the rules for your gf different from the rules for the other players and it doesn't have her just sitting around every session distracting people and ruining the mood which outside observers do just by being there.

shadzar
2009-08-28, 01:15 PM
Well, I was going to type a big long bit to Erikun, but, it doesn't matter really. I've been too stubborn, so I'll just do the right thing, and toss my work out the window in exchange for making someone important happy. :smallredface:

Thanks for the help folks. I appreciate it.

:smallconfused: I would write something else about this statement, but instead will just tell you that if this is any indication of the future, then you may want to think about it in more than just terms of a D&D game that this may happen with. Compromising must be done by ALL parties involved, not just one always doing the compromising so the other gets their way.

Have fun with whatever you decide to do, and good luck. :smallsmile:

arguskos
2009-08-28, 01:16 PM
:smallconfused: I would write something else about this statement, but instead will just tell you that if this is any indication of the future, then you may want to think about it in more than just terms of a D&D game that this may happen with. Compromising must be done by ALL parties involved, not just one always doing the compromising so the other gets their way.

Have fun with whatever you decide to do, and good luck. :smallsmile:
Eh, it's how my life tends to go anyways, so this is hardly anything new. Normally, our relationship is quite good, but over gaming, it gets rocky sometimes. Everyone has rough patches, you know? :smallwink:

Umael
2009-08-28, 01:25 PM
Eh, it's how my life tends to go anyways, so this is hardly anything new. Normally, our relationship is quite good, but over gaming, it gets rocky sometimes. Everyone has rough patches, you know? :smallwink:

Allow me a voice of potential support.

This decision boiled down (it seems) to a choice between the game and the girl. You decided the girl was worth it. If she is indeed worth it, she should acknowledge that you made that decision and she should be grateful towards you.

If that makes you a better boyfriend but a weaker DM, then so be. As long as she's worth it, don't regret your decision and don't look back.

Dust
2009-08-28, 01:29 PM
I have an alternate suggestion than what's been presented here.
It seems to me that while the blah-blah-relationship-danger-blah is definitely a viable option, it could also very well be that the game has failed to spark her interest.
(Please not that, for the ease of typing, I'm going to go ahead and assume it's a girlfriend as has already been suggested earlier in this thread. You can adopt this same advice regardless of the individual.)

The first thing to understand is that this is not your fault. I know that statement goes against everything we learn on these forums, but let me extrapolate.

My girlfriend, before I met her, was a LARPer. I don't understand the appeal. She used to tell me stories about her favorite games and how she'd spend hours ____(insert activity here)____, which I instantly viewed at 'completely failing to contribute in any meaningful fashion to the game.' It was odd.
So when we started tabletopping, it was superheroes. In a system where you could literally build ANYTHING, she had no ideas whatsoever. She seemed apathetic about the whole thing, came to games (it seemed) just to watch and didn't really care to participate.

After months of prodding, discussing, and learning, I discovered that the problem was ultimately that the character - a woman who could talk to animals and could make people close to her fly - just didn't do it for her. Her powers were passive for the most part, and she didn't have the capacity to get involved in other things. Three of four games went by like this, until she stumbled into a 4th ed DnD game....and at our suggestions, broke her mold and played a FIGHTER. It surprised the hell out of all of us, especially the complete personality shift that came with it. She had a CONSTANT role to fill, which was giving her attention and appreciation. She loved it.

When I read your original post and Person X's refusal to play anything but a Wizard, my own experiences instantly decided THAT was the problem. Versatility is great, sure, but for someone who's apathetic and uninterested in the game, more options doesn't matter. DnD may not be her system; find out what she would like to play and branch out. And failing that, get her started in a new class - something where she's constantly getting approval from the rest of the gaming group. That attention will catch her interest and pull her into the rest of the game.

arguskos
2009-08-28, 01:30 PM
Allow me a voice of potential support.

This decision boiled down (it seems) to a choice between the game and the girl. You decided the girl was worth it. If she is indeed worth it, she should acknowledge that you made that decision and she should be grateful towards you.

If that makes you a better boyfriend but a weaker DM, then so be. As long as she's worth it, don't regret your decision and don't look back.
That's the hope. Now, let's hope fate doesn't screw me on my decision, like it tends to do. To borrow a line from Starslip, "FATE YOU TEMPESTUOUS BI-". :smallbiggrin:

@Dust: Perhaps, but as the DM, is it not my responsibility to ensure the well-being and fun of my players? I was raised that this was the host's responsibility. The DM provides the world, the background, the support, the organization, and does all the legwork. The players supply the drive and the encouragement to the DM, that is how it has always been. One does the work, everyone else enjoys. That's the way I learned it, and the way I do it always. How is her not having fun NOT my fault? The DM shoulders that burden, it's what being a DM means, no?

Keshay
2009-08-28, 01:33 PM
It's mechanics, but as I said above, it doesn't matter now. I'll just allow any official 3.5 material. I already told her, and we're working on a character. Hopefully, this solves the issue.

It also inadvertantly shafts my campaign world up the ass, but oh well. That's the price I pay for my stubborn refusal to change I guess. :smallredface:

I hate to say it, but even this will likely not help the situation. The problem was never that she didn't want to play D&D, or not play D&D unless she could be a Wizard, but that she didn't want for you to be spending time with anyone but her.

Somehow she got the idea that D&D time was "You and Me" time. Which was probably because you taught her how to play in 1-on-1 sessions where she was playing a wizard. (Note: If I'm right, this was a bad idea.)

Best bet solution. Party of nothing but Wizards, Druids and Clerics. Play the high-powered magic game she seems to want, but let everyone else in on the action too. When that gets boring, re-suggest your originally intended campaign. Perhaps by then she'll be more open to trying new things.

Or heck, let her play a wizard. You're running a low magic campaign? Fine no new spells besides those she gets for leveling. No scrolls, not magic shoppes with spells for sale, nothing. Forbidden magic? She's ostrasized or shunned, or worse. Problem solved, she gets her way and has to live with the consequences of her actions.

arguskos
2009-08-28, 01:35 PM
Somehow she got the idea that D&D time was "You and Me" time. Which was probably because you taught her how to play in 1-on-1 sessions where she was playing a wizard. (Note: If I'm right, this was a bad idea.)
Actually, I taught her in live-fire sessions, at her own request. I gave her a rulebook, she read it, and then wanted to jump into things, so I let her. Seemed to work well enough. Though yeah, that is a bad idea. :smalltongue:

Dust
2009-08-28, 01:46 PM
It's more that I see the problem as her inability to know what would be fun for her.
You don't know either (because she can't tell you), or else you'd have done it already and not be here.

If the variables in the equation are:
1) The Gaming Group
2) The Game (DnD 3.5)
3) Her Role (Wizard)
4) The DM (You)

And numbers 1 and 4 aren't going to change, and you can't change number two for the time being, then maybe you should fiddle with the one variable you CAN change. Repeating these same 4 factors will inevitably result in her not having fun, again, despite you being hopeful about it.



Here's what I'd do.
Make her a central PC to the story who needs to only REACT to situations, not instigate them. For example, a runaway noble who's being pursued by guards, to drag her kicking and screaming back to her kingdom and responsibilities. When there's a lapse in the story, engage her by having the guards show up. If she just shrugs and goes, then there's no hope for her whatsoever. If she has even an ounce of interest in the game, she'll glance over her spell list or find some other means of nondetection. This will intrigue the party, and she'll find herself getting coaxed slowly into actively playing.
I'd also probably put my foot down and disallow her from Wizard completely; Bard is a 'pure' spellcasting class that allows for much more passive roleplaying, and there's other similar options out there.

Quincunx
2009-08-28, 01:47 PM
Before settling in, a sly cackle from the female gallery. If you had to bend over backwards into a complete circle (by the third post in the thread!) to use the words "they" and "player" when describing someone, arguskos, not only were you talking about a girl but a special girl. DM tool: if you can't fudge with flair, lie outright. Just type "he" next time.

Juvenile moment over, you have seen some good advice here, and I heard a bell of recognition ring, bright and loud, at Dust's analysis. If it's a problem of gaming style, then he's found the solution (and I'll be putting it into practice in the future). In fact, I'd say try that before the (also useful, also considerate) advice about settling things in an OOC fashion. It would be what you'd do for anybody who wasn't enjoying the game?

If, in the end, your disinterested player isn't playing at all, look up the advice of the self-described "gaming voyeur" from these boards and what she did to be engaged with the game, enjoying it like dinner theatre without actually playing it.

arguskos
2009-08-28, 01:54 PM
Quin, I was trying to remain fair and unbiased. It seems reasonable to not lie about someone who can't defend themselves, at least, that's what I think. Anyways, yeah, good advice all over in this thread. Thanks for tossing your hat into the ring on it too. Dust gives good advice indeed. :smallsmile:

Tyndmyr
2009-08-28, 02:17 PM
Wizard. I don't use Wizards or Sorcerers in my setting (which is large, complex, full of houserules, custom material, and all sorts of class tweaks.

This is the awkward bit right here. I have no problem with house rules and some custom material, but when it hits the point where you've gotten rid of a coupla base classes, then yeah, I can see that people might have their heart set on a given class, and not really be interested in the other options. A bard really isn't a good replacement for a wizard, either thematically or in playstyle.

Ask your players if they'd rather do a more standard setting. It's level 1, it shouldn't cause a ton of rework. Yes, the relationship can be part of this, but as requested, I'm just looking at this situation. Is this you deciding no wizzies/sorcs, or is it a group decision on the part of the players? If it's the first, just announce that it's going to be a more standard campaign, and allow *everyone* to adjust accordingly. It's only fair. If it's the latter, you have some tough decisions.

only1doug
2009-08-28, 02:20 PM
My fiancee plays WFRP in our weekly game (and did in a completely different game), she always plays the same character type, its the only type she is interested in playing. (Dwarf fighter type) "i just want to hit things, the rest of you can deal with the talky bits".

She really enjoys playing, just prefers to concentrate on the aspects of the game she likes.

I'm not sure what she'd do if that option was unavailable, she wasn't very interested in the call of cthulhu game (where mindless violence is not a good strategy).

I'd probably have gone with the pre-genned course If it were me running a game that she seemed disinterested in, I know enough about her tastes to be able to create something she would enjoy playing.

Lysander
2009-08-28, 02:35 PM
Make them play as some kind of low charisma undead creature that's been created to help the party.

"What's that horrible thing?!"
"That's Bill. He doesn't have a soul but we're fond of him."

valadil
2009-08-28, 02:43 PM
Why is this person in your game? I'm not asking why haven't you kicked her out yet. I'm asking why is she showing up. It sounds like you have a player who doesn't like RPGs and I'm confused about why she'd even want to be at the table.

I think you should figure out what the player expects out of the game. Ask her directly. Does she have a favorite character? Maybe you can recreate that experience.

One method I've used for getting players more involved is to incorporate their backstory into the main plot. They tend to care when the focus of the game is on something they wrote. The trick is to do this without compromising your plot. You can't have a session be Steve's session. That may make Steve have fun, but all the players who aren't Steve will be bored. This is why I stress incorporating elements of their story into yours.

You also mentioned that the player gets upset when things aren't going her way. Hook her up with a copy of Progress Quest (http://www.progressquest.com/) and send her on her merry way.

Korivan
2009-08-28, 06:58 PM
Give him a pre-generated character.

A Complete Warrior Samurai. With ranged attack feats.

Naw. Give him a elven commoner with the Quick trait, and flaws Frail/Unreactive. Wear half-platemail and start with all 10 stats. Make sure the starting feats are for Craft pottery and Craft nicknacks.

Seriously though. How much are you supposed to bend over for one D^$# Head. I've been there dude. We had one guy that the moment he wasnt the best of the best or stealing the show...he was team killing. At very best, if he didn't get his every way...he too was very apathetic, didnt care, didnt participate, was a drain on the party and the players. 9/10 people here are gonna tell you to tell him off, including me. the other 1/10 will tell you to accomidate his every need, make exceptions, comprimise. But once he is the king SH#!, the rest of your players are gonna suffer for it.

By the way, he says what he wants to play isnt avalible? I'm assuming its 3-3.5 right? Given all your options this shouldn't be the case. Now if its 2nd edition and he's used to 3rd, I can see him not liking the limitations, but thats still no call to be a duche.

Mongoose87
2009-08-28, 07:21 PM
Try a compromise - I think the Psion might be to her liking.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-08-28, 11:33 PM
Uh...people. Problem solved by the OP. No more worries.

kwanzaabot
2009-08-28, 11:41 PM
Seriously? Just let her play a wizard.
If you want to do the sort of thing consenting adults who love each other do ever again, it's really in your best interest.

OR, have a change of pace and do a Forgotten Realms game or something, so she can be a wizard in that game. Maybe she'll be more open to doing something different in your main game then.

Additionally, the reason why she says she's having fun when she doesn't seem like it, is because her fun comes from being with you. So, please. Be nice to her, and let her play that wizard in some capacity.

BobVosh
2009-08-28, 11:54 PM
because her fun comes from being with you.

Your words scare and confuse me for contradicting everything I know of relationships :P

Seriously though if she won't make a character, don't make one for her. Eventually she will get bored and make one. Or she just likes hanging out, and won't mind.

kwanzaabot
2009-08-29, 12:00 AM
Your words scare and confuse me for contradicting everything I know of relationships :P

Women can be scary and irrational when relationships are involved. For example, I was once dumped for a reason I still don't fully understand. I'm not sure I want to, I might have my brain broken by some kind of Great Old One insanity thing.

What you see as a contradiction actually makes perfect sense.

EDIT: I mean this in a completely non-sexist way, I swear!

Tyndmyr
2009-08-29, 12:14 PM
Seriously though. How much are you supposed to bend over for one D^$# Head. I've been there dude. We had one guy that the moment he wasnt the best of the best or stealing the show...he was team killing. At very best, if he didn't get his every way...he too was very apathetic, didnt care, didnt participate, was a drain on the party and the players.

I envy you, I really do. The group I play with consists entirely of that sort. Our current campaign is standing at 4 nights with 2 dead/sold into slavery party members already. Would be three if I hadn't rolled a nat 20 on a fort save last night. Correction: It will be three at the beginning of the next night. When we aren't stealing from each other, killing each other, double crossing the party or guild we work for, we're...well, I dunno what, because we haven't gotten to that part yet. As a bonus, round robin DMing allows whoever just got screwed over to pick the encounters for the next week. How we've avoided a TPK to this point, I really don't know.

If someone doesn't want to put in the effort to make their own character, throw them a quickie generic prefab. If they dont care enough to optimize it, why should you? This case isn't really a case of apathy, of course, but that's the ideal solution for cases where it is...and it'll probably come up at some point.

hotel_papa
2009-08-29, 12:29 PM
It's mechanics, but as I said above, it doesn't matter now. I'll just allow any official 3.5 material. I already told her, and we're working on a character. Hopefully, this solves the issue.

It also inadvertantly shafts my campaign world up the ass, but oh well. That's the price I pay for my stubborn refusal to change I guess. :smallredface:

I married my gamer girlfriend, dude. This won't be the last time that this, and maybe the majority of your life is going to be changed, compromised, or maybe have the entire plan scrapped altogether for the sake of harmony. It's not a game thing, it's a life thing. If everything is going the way it should, the way it always has with humans, she's doing the same in a bunch of aspects of her life that are equally important to her.

There are people who are going to tell you you are doing the wrong thing, and people who don't respect your decisions. Ignore them. I love this game. But, it is a game.

Korivan
2009-08-29, 02:59 PM
I envy you, I really do. The group I play with consists entirely of that sort. Our current campaign is standing at 4 nights with 2 dead/sold into slavery party members already. Would be three if I hadn't rolled a nat 20 on a fort save last night. Correction: It will be three at the beginning of the next night. When we aren't stealing from each other, killing each other, double crossing the party or guild we work for, we're...well, I dunno what, because we haven't gotten to that part yet. As a bonus, round robin DMing allows whoever just got screwed over to pick the encounters for the next week. How we've avoided a TPK to this point, I really don't know.

If someone doesn't want to put in the effort to make their own character, throw them a quickie generic prefab. If they dont care enough to optimize it, why should you? This case isn't really a case of apathy, of course, but that's the ideal solution for cases where it is...and it'll probably come up at some point.


LOL. That reminds me of a time when one of our players sold another player for a regular quarterstaff. For replacements we usually tell the person to go out in the woods, a couple of hours later...bam! found one.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-08-29, 03:03 PM
Give him a pre-generated character.

A Complete Warrior Samurai. With ranged attack feats.

Justice... Cruel, cruel Justice...

Myrmex
2009-08-29, 03:21 PM
It's mechanics, but as I said above, it doesn't matter now. I'll just allow any official 3.5 material. I already told her, and we're working on a character. Hopefully, this solves the issue.

It also inadvertantly shafts my campaign world up the ass, but oh well. That's the price I pay for my stubborn refusal to change I guess. :smallredface:

Can't you compromise? I mean, surely she can see how much more work it is for you to accomodate her?

Maybe go halfway, allowing her to find and learn scrolls, but as a bard or sorcerer, so she has a a spontaneous pool of spells, and a smaller, prepared pool. Maybe she can prepare 2 spells/day of each spell level, that she can learn from any 3 schools she chooses at character creation. Maybe she uncovered some super-secret arcane language, and is now traveling the world to find out more. Or maybe slap the learnable 2 spells/day of each spell level from three chosen schools on a monk, rogue, ranger, hexblade, or paladin chasis- whatever fits the feel she's going for, and is weak enough to benefit from a splash of arcane casting.

That way she can feel special with your special attention (this is really what this is about- attention), you can keep your world intact, and you won't upset the power balance of things that much.

Umael
2009-08-29, 03:50 PM
I envy you, I really do. The group I play with consists entirely of that sort. Our current campaign is standing at 4 nights with 2 dead/sold into slavery party members already. Would be three if I hadn't rolled a nat 20 on a fort save last night. Correction: It will be three at the beginning of the next night. When we aren't stealing from each other, killing each other, double crossing the party or guild we work for, we're...well, I dunno what, because we haven't gotten to that part yet. As a bonus, round robin DMing allows whoever just got screwed over to pick the encounters for the next week. How we've avoided a TPK to this point, I really don't know.

...why you play with a group like that, I will never understand.

Yuki Akuma
2009-08-30, 04:41 AM
...why you play with a group like that, I will never understand.

Some people live in areas with barely any roleplayers.

Shocking, I know.

SadisticFishing
2009-08-30, 05:11 AM
Funny, I'm with the "let her play a wizard" group.

Not because she's your girlfriend, or super important to you, but because the players will always invariably more important than the DM. They have to be for the game to work. Anyone truly in love with their wizard concept should be allowed to play a wizard. Maybe she's the only wizard in a thousand years. Maybe she's the first wizard, ever. Maybe she's not a wizard at all, but an alchemist who makes special potions (Fireball = explodey type potion, etc) that last a day before losing potency, and keeping them all mixed is a full time task.

I don't care how we go about it, but as DMs, it is our self-chosen duty, and right, to make all our players happy.

Weimann
2009-08-30, 05:48 AM
Having read the thread, I think the OP made the correct decision in playing the generic fantasy world rather than the homebrewed variety he had come up with.

Also, it doesn't have to be a complete surrender, but might be just a temporary retreat. Let her play her wizard to her hearts content, and then, when she becomes allured by the physical prowess of the fighter, suggestively wave your world map in front of her.

As long as she realizes you've made a compromise for her, it shold work out all right.

Calmar
2009-08-30, 08:29 AM
a gamer's girlfriend then.

A what? :smallconfused:


:smallbiggrin:

Drevius
2009-08-30, 12:01 PM
Well it seems the problem has been resolved and that the player although apathetic seemed to have a grasp of the rules if they were that gung ho to play a wizard, and your situation is far better than a few I have been in. A few times has this letting new people have their way and play something with spells, be it cleric wizard druid etc. One of my dm's let their girlfriend be a druid with the idea that she would heal and keep handy spells prepped, maybe she did but all she ever did was wild shape into an eagle and fly around or a bear and maul things. Also a cleric who was still apathetic after being made and had to be npc'd as well as another girlfriend of a dm who was angry AND apathetic not wanting to be "bossed around" when helpful suggestions were given to her halfling rogue like, "maybe you should watch out for traps in this corridor", although neither the dm or the girlfriend really knew what they were doing because i tried to introduce them to the game but they didn't want to read the rulebooks or skimmed them and didn't comprehend word one. Long story short new players (gfs especially) now play half orc barbarians with power attack and a weapon that has the word. great in it

Umael
2009-08-30, 06:24 PM
Some people live in areas with barely any roleplayers.

Shocking, I know.

If I didn't like the gamers in my area, I wouldn't game with them, no matter how few there are. I've got better things to do with my time than spend it with people with whom I wouldn't associate out of game.

Also, I didn't know if this was the case, or if the poster was a masochist, or it was something else altogether.