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Zergrusheddie
2009-08-28, 06:07 PM
How do these things work with each other? Does the opponent roll to see if he hits an image and than even-odds it to determine if the image is hit? It seems like these two spells can give off an impressive amount of protection.

Best of luck
-Eddie

Siosilvar
2009-08-28, 06:09 PM
Basically, yes. Stack them either way you want; it doesn't actually change the chances of getting hit (or an image getting hit).

8 images with a 50% miss chance gets you hit ~6.25% of the time.

Curmudgeon
2009-08-28, 06:14 PM
They work independently.
Enemies attempting to attack you or cast spells at you must select from among indistinguishable targets. Generally, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. Any successful attack against an image destroys it. An image’s AC is 10 + your size modifier + your Dex modifier.
Displacement
Target: Creature touched

The subject of this spell appears to be about 2 feet away from its true location. Attempting to hit a Mirror Image will either connect and destroy it, or miss. Displacement does not apply to Mirror Images, because they are not creatures and thus not suitable targets for the spell. Only the actual creature has Displacement and its 50% miss chance.

So first check to see if the target is a Mirror Image or the actual creature, and then use the appropriate mechanics.

Frosty
2009-08-28, 06:33 PM
What about Invisibility and Mirror Images then?

The Glyphstone
2009-08-28, 06:37 PM
I think it's the other way around. It is true that you cannot cast Displacement on a Mirror Image, because it is not a creature. But Mirror Images of a creature are visually indistinguishable from it, thus if the creature has a Displacement effect on it and Mirror Images, the Images should logically also be Displacing, because if they were not, it would be an instant giveaway as to which one is the real enemy.

Sallera
2009-08-28, 06:38 PM
Well, not really, as images can be up to 5 feet away and displacement is only 2.

karnalsyn
2009-08-28, 06:42 PM
Displacement wouldn't help your images.

First roll would be to see which image was hit or if it was you.
Second roll would be for displacement, and only if you were the one that got hit.

Stacking them isn't a great idea in my opinion. They each have their uses, and stand out better in certain situations.

Mirror image is good against 1 attacker with 1-2 attacks a round. Preferably 1.
Displacement is best suited for multiple opponents and/or multiple attacks.

Curmudgeon
2009-08-28, 06:49 PM
One thing to keep in mind is that Mirror Image is a common, low-level spell. When facing spellcasters, a single Magic Missile will wipe out many or all of these Images. Non-casters will use iterative ranged weapon attacks, because (unless the caster's DEX is really high) the Images are easy to hit. And someone who would hit a fairly high AC but misses will assume that they're attacking a real target (due to the low AC of Mirror Images) and continue attacking that same target before it has a chance to move and mingle with the Mirror Images.

Irreverent Fool
2009-08-28, 07:53 PM
What about Invisibility and Mirror Images then?


If you are invisible or an attacker shuts his or her eyes, the spell has no effect.

Mirror Image has a single, specific effect. It creates illusionary duplicates that are visually indistinguishable from the spellcaster and causes attacks or spells directed at the caster to choose (usually randomly) between the available targets. If a spellcaster has 4 mirror images and is displaced, then to an outside observer there are five copies of the spellcaster. If this outside observer selects the real displaced spellcaster as a target, then the miss chance vs displacement is rolled.

Similarly, if the caster has a spell granting a natural armor bonus in effect, the mirror images do not gain the natural armor bonus.


One thing to keep in mind is that Mirror Image is a common, low-level spell...
Magic missile is the ideal choice but bear in mind (not you, Curmudgeon) that area-of-effect spells such as fireball will not have any effect on mirror images, though they will appear to take any damage that the caster suffers.

obnoxious
sig

Lysander
2009-08-28, 08:58 PM
What about Invisibility and Mirror Images then?

If you are invisible then the mirror images don't exist.

Signmaker
2009-08-28, 10:04 PM
Also popular is the "Blind One-Two" method: closing your eyes and delivering two powerful iteratives. Having 8 images doesn't mean all that much when they're rendered irrelevant. Granted, this method is only useful if you expect the caster to be relatively meatless and yourself to be capable of a 1-2 turn punchout, as you're better off popping the images in long-duration combat.

tyckspoon
2009-08-28, 10:23 PM
Also popular is the "Blind One-Two" method: closing your eyes and delivering two powerful iteratives. Having 8 images doesn't mean all that much when they're rendered irrelevant. Granted, this method is only useful if you expect the caster to be relatively meatless and yourself to be capable of a 1-2 turn punchout, as you're better off popping the images in long-duration combat.

I.. can't tell how this is supposed to get past the images? They get mixed when the spell is cast, so you still don't know who the proper target is, and you grant them total concealment so you have a 50% miss chance?

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-08-28, 10:26 PM
I.. can't tell how this is supposed to get past the images? They get mixed when the spell is cast, so you still don't know who the proper target is, and you grant them total concealment so you have a 50% miss chance?

But now you aren't confused by all the images, you are simply swinging into his hex. Yes, you have a 50% miss chance. Which is hella better than the 82.5 miss chance you get when he's sporting 8 images. With appropriate feats (blindsight) you can mitigate that and make Mirror Image obsolete.

kpenguin
2009-08-28, 10:27 PM
Because you'd rather take the 50% miss chance than take the chance that the one out of, say, five guys you target is the real McCoy.

9mm
2009-08-28, 10:27 PM
I.. can't tell how this is supposed to get past the images? They get mixed when the spell is cast, so you still don't know who the proper target is, and you grant them total concealment so you have a 50% miss chance?

you can't be fooled by the images because you can't see them, so yeah, you see with your ears and take a swing, 50-50 odds say one of your two blows should hit.

Frosty
2009-08-28, 10:30 PM
Since when did Fireballs not affect Mirror Images? If they take damage they shatter right?

tyckspoon
2009-08-28, 10:31 PM
But if you can still tell where the real target is to take that 50-50 chance you aren't fooled by the Images anyway and should have no need to close your eyes.

Curmudgeon
2009-08-28, 10:51 PM
Since when did Fireballs not affect Mirror Images? If they take damage they shatter right? No. It pays to read the spell description.
Figments seem to react normally to area spells (such as looking like they’re burned or dead after being hit by a fireball). A Mirror Image could look dead after a Fireball, then the next round get up, apparently mobile again after some magical healing. They're illusions. They're supposed to fool the enemy.

Signmaker
2009-08-28, 10:51 PM
@Tick: Not quite. Aiming blindly at a target so long as you know their square incurs no penalties aside from blindness (=P). Therefore, you can swing blindly at their square and have much better odds of connecting. This procedure is even detailed in the spell description.

As is, incidentally, mirror image vs. fireball. Images are shown to react 'normally' to AoEs. They get burnt when lit on fire, etc. etc.

Frosty
2009-08-28, 10:59 PM
If you have Blindfight, then closing eyes is DEFINITELY a good idea.

tyckspoon
2009-08-28, 11:06 PM
@Tick: Not quite. Aiming blindly at a target so long as you know their square incurs no penalties aside from blindness (=P). Therefore, you can swing blindly at their square and have much better odds of connecting. This procedure is even detailed in the spell description.


Ok, this is the part that's disconnecting for me. Mirror Image gets cast successfully: the result of this, normally, is that you don't know which square is your target's, thus why you have to attack randomly. If you close your eyes, you *still* don't know which square your actual target is in, so you choose a random target, and now you have a 50% miss chance on top so you have good odds of not even cutting down the number of images.

Admittedly I assume the caster has the common sense to *move* after he casts, causing the images to be remixed and making his real location uncertain. If he just casts it then stands still and dares you to attack him, then yeah, you know what 5-foot square he's in and can just swing wildly at that.

Signmaker
2009-08-28, 11:08 PM
Query

Your issue is resolved by the fact that all the images are in one square: the caster's. Thus, no need to 'pick out' a target and then close your eyes. You just do so, swing, and hope for the best. Thematically, you're relying on your other senses to guide your shot.

tyckspoon
2009-08-28, 11:17 PM
These figments separate from you and remain in a cluster, each within 5 feet of at least one other figment or you

5 feet, for a Medium sized creature, allows you and your Image cluster to occupy multiple squares. If you get 8 images they can occupy all 8 adjacent squares to your position, or snake into a conga line trailing through your last traveled route, or quite a few configurations. Everything piled into the caster's square is the simplest way to resolve the spell, but definitely not the only one.

quick_comment
2009-08-28, 11:17 PM
Its always better to close your eyes when fighting a target with mirror image up.

Mirror image is at least 50% miss chance (if you have 1 image) and can go up to 7/8ths miss chance.

Closing your eyes is only 50% miss chance. So at worst, your odds remain the same.

sadi
2009-08-28, 11:28 PM
Someone explain how you can get 50% miss chance by closing your eyes and picking 1 square when every image is in a different square, you still have that 1 in 8 chance of picking the right square since you can merge with the images and spread them out again. And of course you have the 50% miss chance for swinging blindly if you do manage to pick the right square.

Yeah you have a 50% chance if all images are in the same square, but even stupid casters wouldn't do that.

Signmaker
2009-08-28, 11:29 PM
Even if your 'conga line' idea is true (I don't actually know), it's just a standard listen check to hear your opponent. For a standard fight with a standard opponent (thus, they aren't actively moving silently), the listen DC is fairly low. DC 5 is a person in medium armor walking slow and making as little noise as possible, for a comparison.

tyckspoon
2009-08-28, 11:37 PM
Mirror Image includes auditory aspects- it's necessary for the images to mimic spellcasting, and more importantly the spell specifically refutes using hearing to pick out the real caster.

sadi
2009-08-28, 11:39 PM
Even if your 'conga line' idea is true (I don't actually know), it's just a standard listen check to hear your opponent. For a standard fight with a standard opponent (thus, they aren't actively moving silently), the listen DC is fairly low. DC 5 is a person in medium armor walking slow and making as little noise as possible, for a comparison.

When you and the mirror image separate, observers can’t use vision or hearing to tell which one is you and which the image.

Directly from the spell description.

Signmaker
2009-08-28, 11:42 PM
Basic modifiers for listen are -10 for battle before any other condition. And I doubt anyone casting mirror image is going to have medium armor on. So it'd probably be dc 20 +1 per 10 ft further away.

I think you're reading that table wrong. The DC is a flat -10 for a battle, not a modifier to another listen condition. -5 for being distracted (due to combat) makes more sense. Don't know for sure though. A caster, likely to be unarmored, would be closer to DC 10+5, though they still aren't moving as to be quiet (which is factored in to the DC 10).

As to tick's comment, "An attacker must be able to see the images to be fooled. If you are invisible or an attacker shuts his or her eyes, the spell has no effect" seems pretty clear-cut to me. Close your eyes, immune to spell. Listen check to pinpoint a square.

Lamech
2009-08-28, 11:51 PM
I think you're reading that table wrong. The DC is a flat -10 for a battle, not a modifier to another listen condition. -5 for being distracted (due to combat) makes more sense. Don't know for sure though. A caster, likely to be unarmored, would be closer to DC 10+5, though they still aren't moving as to be quiet (which is factored in to the DC 10).

As to tick's comment, "An attacker must be able to see the images to be fooled. If you are invisible or an attacker shuts his or her eyes, the spell has no effect" seems pretty clear-cut to me.When you and the mirror image separate, observers can’t use vision or hearing to tell which one is you and which the image. You can not use hearing. End of story. A blinded creature will not know what square the caster is in, and they will have to pick between several squares. They can try to use logic to find the caster, but its still basically the same thing if the wizard does a good job of not giving up info.

Signmaker
2009-08-28, 11:53 PM
When you and the mirror image separate, observers can’t use vision or hearing to tell which one is you and which the image. You can not use hearing. End of story. A blinded creature will not know what square the caster is in, and they will have to pick between several squares. They can try to use logic to find the caster, but its still basically the same thing if the wizard does a good job of not giving up info.

I unno. I'm of the belief that the final snippet of the spell takes a higher priority over that section. Namely, that not seeing the illusion negates the effects of said illusion.

kpenguin
2009-08-28, 11:57 PM
So, basically the conflict is between:


When you and the mirror image separate, observers can’t use vision or hearing to tell which one is you and which the image

and


An attacker must be able to see the images to be fooled. If you are invisible or an attacker shuts his or her eyes, the spell has no effect.

Which one take precedent over the other?

Signmaker
2009-08-28, 11:59 PM
Which one take precedent over the other?

Well, usually when a contract has an "If X occurs, this contract is null and void" clause, that clause takes utmost priority. I'd apply the same logic.

Curmudgeon
2009-08-29, 12:03 AM
Which one take precedent over the other?
Neither; they're both correct.

If you shut your eyes between the caster creating the Mirror Images and moving, then you're not distracted by them. However, you can't use sounds to track the caster's movement because figments also create sound. Basically you've got a chance to ignore the illusions when you know (or guess/deduce) what square the caster is in.

Signmaker
2009-08-29, 12:06 AM
Neither; they're both correct.

If you shut your eyes between the caster creating the Mirror Images and moving, then you're not distracted by them. However, you can't use sounds to track the caster's movement because figments also create sound. Basically you've got a chance to ignore the illusions when you know (or guess/deduce) what square the caster is in.

Understanding that, may I ask what the purpose of the final paragraph is for, then? It feels redundant with that interpretation.

Curmudgeon
2009-08-29, 12:52 AM
Understanding that, may I ask what the purpose of the final paragraph is for, then? It feels redundant with that interpretation.
I think it's the usual WotC attempt at helpful "clarification", which is the source of much consternation around these boards. :smallamused:

Signmaker
2009-08-29, 12:54 AM
I think it's the usual WotC attempt at helpful "clarification", which is the source of much consternation around these boards. :smallamused:

I suppose you've got me there :smallredface:
Still miffs me that a second level spell can cause so much havoc. Then again, grease is a 1st.

kpenguin
2009-08-29, 12:59 AM
If you shut your eyes between the caster creating the Mirror Images and moving, then you're not distracted by them. However, you can't use sounds to track the caster's movement because figments also create sound. Basically you've got a chance to ignore the illusions when you know (or guess/deduce) what square the caster is in.

If the spell has no effect when you have your eyes closed, then why would you still hear the figment sounds? Are not figment sounds effects?

The final paragraph also specifically says that you are not fooled if you cannot see the images? If the spell continues to create illusory sounds after you close your eyes, is that not fooling you?

Also of note is the use of the word "observer" in the clause that prevents sound from being used to detect the true caster. Are you "observing" if you try to listen in on the caster? Its not often that I hear the word "observer" used in a purely auditory context.

The spell description is awfully vague. Awfully, awfully vague. Its a pity WotC has not learned to be more clear with its rules.

I can see your standpoint, but I still have my doubts.

Signmaker
2009-08-29, 01:01 AM
See, this is why I prefer to think of it as a sight-dependant illusion. It would make sense that way, being a 'mirror' image and such. But yes, vague.

Jack Zander
2009-08-29, 01:25 AM
Wow, no need to argue over something so simple. Just take some RAMS and understand that the intent of the spell is that the figments make sounds, so you cannot rely solely on hearing to pinpoint them. The images don't stop making sounds just because you closed your eyes.

Noble Savant
2009-08-29, 04:13 AM
If the images occupy different squares then why is there a roll to see which image you hit? Why don't you choose a square to attack? All the images are in the same square, moving around the caster.

Eloel
2009-08-29, 04:22 AM
Mirror Image is also easily thwarthed by Manyjaws. With 10 jaws, and 1d4+5 (max 9) images, you're sure to smack through all of them. And the enemy spellcaster then needs to find a way to get out of the jaws.

daggaz
2009-08-29, 04:26 AM
Wow, no need to argue over something so simple. Just take some RAMS and understand that the intent of the spell is that the figments make sounds, so you cannot rely solely on hearing to pinpoint them. The images don't stop making sounds just because you closed your eyes.

This is exactly how my group has always ruled it. The whole clause of "shut your eyes and the spell doesnt work" is just typical WotC sloppiness, it seemed obvious to us that they were so focused on the visual aspect of the spell, that they completely forgot about the audial part they had just detailed only one paragraph earlier. So yeah, RAI if you toss the rules lawyer's book of technicalities out the window and use some common sense. Still, its basically a houseruling unless WotC has actually errated it.

Eloel
2009-08-29, 04:36 AM
All images are in the same square with the caster. Even if the caster is invisible, and is not making any noise, you have a 50% chance to hit him. I don't see how you would have more chance of missing if there were more images with noises.

Emy
2009-08-29, 02:09 PM
All images are in the same square with the caster. Even if the caster is invisible, and is not making any noise, you have a 50% chance to hit him. I don't see how you would have more chance of missing if there were more images with noises.

Did you read earlier in the thread where it was explained that they can be in adjacent squares, or a conga line?


These figments separate from you and remain in a cluster, each within 5 feet of at least one other figment or you.

5 feet is far enough to be in a different square. Like this:

XXXX
XXYXX
XXX
XXXX

(white Xs used for spacing, black Xs are images, Y is you)

Or, more simply,

XXXX
YXX
XEX
XXX

same as above, except E is an enemy melee guy (who is medium and does not have reach). Depending on his temperament, he may assume that the one out of reach is the real one. But if he randomly attacks one of the ones already within range, he has a 1/8 chance of getting the right one.

Eloel
2009-08-29, 02:10 PM
Sorry then, I kinda skipped half the discussion.

The Glyphstone
2009-08-29, 02:16 PM
Did you read earlier in the thread where it was explained that they can be in adjacent squares, or a conga line?



5 feet is far enough to be in a different square. Like this:

XXXX
XXYXX
XXX
XXXX

(white Xs used for spacing, black Xs are images, Y is you)

Or, more simply,

XXXX
YXX
XEX
XXX

same as above, except E is an enemy melee guy (who is medium and does not have reach). Depending on his temperament, he may assume that the one out of reach is the real one. But if he randomly attacks one of the ones already within range, he has a 1/8 chance of getting the right one.


And that makes this stupid spell even more confusing, because what if the 'real' target is out of reach for the attacker? Does the attack automatically fail, despite the spell saying that the strike hits a random target amongst the images and caster? I.E.

YYYYC
Z

Where C is the caster, Y are his four images in the aformentioned conga line, and Z is the orc. Is it now impossible for Z to hit the caster?

Myrmex
2009-08-29, 02:30 PM
Where C is the caster, Y are his four images in the aformentioned conga line, and Z is the orc. Is it now impossible for Z to hit the caster?

I think the idea is that after you cast it, there is so much moving and tumbling about, that the orc doesn't know the order of which image to attack, and his choice about which to hit is random.

The orc no longer knows where C is, since he saw C "move" and must now pick C out of all the Ys, which is simply a 1/5 chance.

Emy
2009-08-29, 02:32 PM
And that makes this stupid spell even more confusing, because what if the 'real' target is out of reach for the attacker? Does the attack automatically fail, despite the spell saying that the strike hits a random target amongst the images and caster? I.E.

YYYYC
Z

Where C is the caster, Y are his four images in the aformentioned conga line, and Z is the orc. Is it now impossible for Z to hit the caster?

The spell doesn't force opponents to attack randomly. It's just that the opponent is selecting from between indistinguishable targets. Unless he has a good reason to go after a certain one, he should roll to pick one. In your line case, Z the orcish barbarian might think 'Aargh! Puny human caster tryin'a run away from meee!' and charge the one farthest away. Or, he may simply full attack, and direct one attack against the leftmost one, and one against the one immediately to its right. At higher levels (or if Z gets 3+ attacks due to natural weapons), that would be a 5ft step right, followed by attacks against the three reachable Ys.

Rolling to select a target is more appropriate if the enemy is surrounded.

XXX
XEX
XYX

or if the enemy is at long range, using a ranged weapon or spell

YXX
XXX
XXX





E

or if the enemy is at range, about to charge

XYXX
XXXXX

| ^
| |
||
|
E

or if the images are all in the same square as the caster, and the enemy does not close his eyes. Having all of the images be in the same square may be the only option at some times, like in small hallways.

Y
E

Eloel
2009-08-29, 02:33 PM
The real caster may not be 'in-range' for a charge, but an image might be. If the orc charges the image, and attacks, he still has 1/X chance of hitting the caster, who is 30ft away of where he is.

Find a way to get that to make sense.

Myrmex
2009-08-29, 02:44 PM
The real caster may not be 'in-range' for a charge, but an image might be. If the orc charges the image, and attacks, he still has 1/X chance of hitting the caster, who is 30ft away of where he is.

Find a way to get that to make sense.

You're doing the math wrong.

The orc has a 1/x chance of choosing and charging an image, which happens to translate to a 1/x chance of correctly choosing the caster. So the calculation to determine if the orc is swinging at the caster occurs when the orc makes a decision to act, not at the time when the orc swings his ax.

Emy
2009-08-29, 02:52 PM
The real caster may not be 'in-range' for a charge, but an image might be. If the orc charges the image, and attacks, he still has 1/X chance of hitting the caster, who is 30ft away of where he is.

Find a way to get that to make sense.

Are you a troll? I can't get it to make sense, because you are assuming that 1) you roll a 1dX to see if the target is an image or the caster and 2) you know the location of the real caster and 3) the real caster is out of reach.


Generally, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment.

Okay, so, it looks like the SRD is assuming that you are not keeping track of where the real caster is. So when you roll, you are actually determining the location of the caster. 1/X chance of being the target, (X-1)/X chance of not being the target.

If you are keeping track of where the real caster is, it's absurd to roll the same random chance. Now, if all targets are equally available, sure, you could roll the dice to see which image/caster the enemy selects.

However, in your example, not all of the targets are equally available. If the orc decides to charge, and the only target in range is an image, the orc has no chance of hitting the caster.