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View Full Version : RP Question: Playing a Good Guy Who Thinks The Sith Had The Right Idea



Leliel
2009-08-28, 06:21 PM
OK, maybe not Sith under that name as he's in a completely different setting then Star Wars-Eberron, actually-but you get the point.

I had always intended my character, Joshu Tabris, to be a "positive" Ubermensch-the values of the society he rejects and transforms is a truly corrupt and stagnant one. Which, given that this is Eberron, gives him a pretty wide selection of cultures to thumb his nose at (Karrnath, Sarlona, Aundair, etc.). Heck, even his name references this-Tabris is the Angel of Free Will.

After reading Arcane Power, I came to realize that many of the Epic Destinies for Arcane characters are pesudo-Jedi.

So, I came to view him as what would happen if you mixed Darth Sidious' viewpoint and power with Obi-Wan's kindness and nobility.

Thankfully, Anakin did not enter into the equation at any point.

Basically, he thinks that while law and light are all well and good, he also believes that the very reason those forces exist and have something to defend is because of passion and ambition-the Force must exist with the Dark Side, after all, or not at all. He also is, by his own admittance, a selfish and power-hungry creature, albeit one who turns that into a productive, creative force. So naturally, he prefers the Dark Side, turning his passion and strength into a love and compassion for others-although he has every intention of nurturing his vices and building an empire in the process. Hey, a job like saving the world has to come with some nice perks.

Of course, playing a selfish hero of any sort-wether that be a genuinely good person who doesn't see the point in not indulging in the Seven Deadly Sins once in a while or a Byronic one-is always a bit of a challenge. Being a hero who happily admits that he's drunk deeply of that old black magic and likes it's taste is particularly puzzling. So...

How would you play a genuinely kind and basically decent person who is, shall we say, Drunk on the Dark Side?

And now once DiscipleOfBob sees this, he'll create a swordmage rival with a glowing saber and telekinesis. I'm cool with that.

DiscipleofBob
2009-08-28, 06:53 PM
And now once DiscipleOfBob sees this, he'll create a swordmage rival with a glowing saber and telekinesis. I'm cool with that.

Great, now I need to rewrite the bad guy. Thanks a lot.

*scribblescribblescribble*

EDIT: Nonsarcastic advice to come shortly

Lycan 01
2009-08-28, 07:34 PM
I'm not too sure about the game you're playing, but I could see how a "twilight" jedi is possible.

You're greedy and power-hungry and all that jazz. So what? You've got your heart in the right place. See a starving kid on a street corner? Swipe an apple from a street vendor and give it to the kid. You did something bad, but for a good reason. The BBEG is on his knees, begging for mercy and claiming he's seen the error of his ways. The look in his eyes says he's just a scared old man, and you've already bested him and left him with no options. But you decide to hack his head off anyway. Yeah, you killed an unarmed man who was asking for mercy. But who's to say he wouldn't have returned to his evil ways again in the future, and countless lives were potentially saved by your actions? You sacrificed your own innocence in the name of peace. The path of the jedi is one of sacrifice, anyway... And you did for the greater good - not the fact that he had some nice loot on his corpse.


So yes, it is quite possible to follow the "light side" while enjoying all the perks of the "dark side" at the same time. Its just a very fine line to follow...

Captain Six
2009-08-28, 08:41 PM
If this is a force analogy for a different power or style then using unconventional means to create good ends is pretty much the summary of Chaotic Good. Maybe chaotic neutral if self-improvement is his primary goal; chaos in general is very individual centric with little care to play by the rules. I think the alignment chaotic gets thrown around to lightly from what I've seen. Most Chaotic Goods I've DMed for are True Good at most. It's probably just my crowd though.


However it certainly doesn't work that way with Star Wars. I don't think there is a Sith that became one for anything but selfless reasons. Even Darth Sidious's master plan was to rally an army for an originally noble purpose. The dark side corrupts, it's just how it works in that setting.

Gourtox
2009-08-28, 08:45 PM
However it certainly doesn't work that way with Star Wars. I don't think there is a Sith that became one for anything but selfless reasons. Even Darth Sidious's master plan was to rally an army for an originally noble purpose. The dark side corrupts, it's just how it works in that setting.

Two words Darth Bane. He never did anything selfless.

Leliel
2009-08-28, 08:46 PM
If this is a force analogy for a different power or style then using unconventional means to create good ends is pretty much the summary of Chaotic Good. Maybe chaotic neutral if self-improvement is his primary goal; chaos in general is very individual centric with little care to play by the rules. I think the alignment chaotic gets thrown around to lightly from what I've seen. Most Chaotic Goods I've DMed for are True Good at most. It's probably just my crowd though.


However it certainly doesn't work that way with Star Wars. I don't think there is a Sith that became one for anything but selfless reasons. Even Darth Sidious's master plan was to rally an army for an originally noble purpose. The dark side corrupts, it's just how it works in that setting.

True. I was just using the "Sith" analogy to show how he looks at the world.

I have no doubt that in Star Wars, he would either be (A) a normal Jedi with a flagrant disregard for the "stoicism" rule, or (B) a Grey one with focus on Light side.

EDIT: Sorry, just realized that "Grey Jedi" is a normal one with flagrant disregard for the rules.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-08-28, 08:53 PM
See Darth Vectivus at http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Vectivus for an example of a non-absolute-evil Sith Lord. He was a businessman beforehand, so he was able to hold on to that lesser evil rather than being sucked into the Dark Side's greater evil.

Set
2009-08-28, 10:19 PM
Basically, he thinks that while law and light are all well and good, he also believes that the very reason those forces exist and have something to defend is because of passion and ambition-the Force must exist with the Dark Side, after all, or not at all. He also is, by his own admittance, a selfish and power-hungry creature, albeit one who turns that into a productive, creative force. So naturally, he prefers the Dark Side, turning his passion and strength into a love and compassion for others-although he has every intention of nurturing his vices and building an empire in the process. Hey, a job like saving the world has to come with some nice perks.

You could play the character either 'straight' or twist him up a little.

He could be a self-serving opportunitist who rationalizes his less-than-lily-white attitudes and behaviors as part of some cosmic balance or greater good, *or* he could genuinely believe the stuff he's peddling.

Perhaps he's come to the (not totally insane) conclusion that the evil and suffering in the world comes from people denying their natures, avoiding personal responsibility and fearing / hating the scary things that live inside of everyone. By demonizing 'negative feelings' like fear, hate and anger, society is creating a class of people who are *victims* of those feelings, never learning how to control and channel fear, hate, or anger. There are things in this world that should be feared, and the 'fearless knight' is nothing but a fool. Even if one is suicidal or insecure, and has no fear for one's own self, the man who fears *nothing* is not going to fear for the safety of the villagers either, valuing his own displays of 'courage' above the lives of others. Similarly, there are things in this world that a complete man *should* hate, or that should move him to anger.

Meanwhile, those same cultures edify the 'good' emotions, like love (the same love that turns people into stalkers, tears their hearts out when that love is spurned, or ends badly, and is responsible for far too many country songs) or hope (the same 'hope' that just this one lottery ticket / spin of the wheel / push of the needle will magically fix everything wrong in one's life and make all the bad things go away).

The character has come to the conclusion that a person who accepts personal responsibility for himself must accept that anger, fear and hate not only exist within him, *but that the gods put them there for a reason,* and that to deny them is to render oneself a victim of them. It is acceptable to fear and hate and be wrathful, but what is not acceptable is to allow those feelings to *master* oneself. Anger is to be channeled to those who have earned your anger. Hatred is to be reserved to those who truly deserve to be hated. Fear is to become a warning, a tool to keep oneself alive, to come back and claim victory another day. Love and hope and faith are also to be mastered by this 'superior man,' as he recognizes that allowing *any* feeling to master him is to bow down and become a slave and surrender his chosen path as captain of his own fate.

Iron control and moderation in all things would be his mantras. His logic might seem cold and soulless after the fact, but he'll never be mistaken for a Vulcan (or Jedi), as he embraces his passions and lives life on his own terms. Let others surrender control of their lives to passing fancies, or hide from their own potential (and so become utterly paralyzed in the face of supernatural terrors that they cannot pretend do not exist, or utterly berserk when confronted with an outrage so heinous that they lose control of the temper they have hidden away all these years, instead of learnin to master and direct their passions).

He'll probably hold anyone who doesn't agree with his principles in contempt, as slaves to their animal selves, with some pseudo-Nietzchean nonsense thrown in for good measure.

"For all things, there is a time. A time to love and a time to laugh. A time to lie and a time to kill. [draws sword] Guess what time it is now?"

Sophismata
2009-08-28, 10:22 PM
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The force shall set me free.

I've always viewed it as thus:

The Sith are not, necessarily, evil - but the path they take is more forgiving to evil persons. The Jedi preach emotionlessness. There's a disconnect there - holding yourself above yourself, feel nothing and let nothing affect you... a path that is entirely unnatural. Passion is something to be embraced - it is who and what you are. Use it to gain strength, believe in what you do and let no-one hold you down.

The force is a means to an end. Your end... for good or ill.

Sholos
2009-08-28, 10:39 PM
Ignoring your emotions is a great way to let them control you.

Really, that code has some issues, and I think KOTOR did a pretty good job of showing that blindly following the Code wasn't a good thing.

ColdSepp
2009-08-28, 10:43 PM
There are lots of other Force disciplines that aren't Jedi or Sith. However, Sith is the evil force discipline.

It's pretty much stated that it is corrupting.

DiscipleofBob
2009-08-29, 12:22 AM
Okay, I promised a straightforward answer and here it is:

I know I have a slight conflict of interest regarding this particular character of yours, but your question did remind me of a 3.5 Eberron character who was a chaotic good cleric of the Dark Six.

He had morals he took down from the gods, but the way he saw it, the Dark Six were only evil when compared to their counterparts, and if their message was interpreted "correctly" it could be construed as possibly good. Here's how I reasoned it.

The Devourer: Respect those with power greater than your own. It does no good to pointlessly oppose those who can smite you down rendering your efforts with pointless.

The Fury: Never be afraid to express yourself and your emotion in all walks of life. Show passion in all that you do.

The Keeper: Give nothing away for free. Your generosity will only breed others' greed.

The Mockery: Never let false pretenses of honor and chivalry distract or obstruct you. Your enemies will try to abuse such nobilities to their advantage. Do what feels right to you and do not conform to the standards of others, even your friends.

The Shadow: Magic is a gift, not something to be feared or squandered. Use it generously and as often as you want.

The Traveler: Change is the only constant. Always be prepared to adapt to your surroundings.

Main point being a lot of the stuff considered evil can be construed the other way around.

CarpeGuitarrem
2009-08-29, 12:30 AM
I'd like to point out that law and light are what you could very conceivably pin down as what transform raw passion and strength into love and compassion, particularly light. Unguided passion and strength can never be love and compassion, it must be regulated and infused with the Light Side, so to speak.

Leliel
2009-08-29, 12:59 AM
Okay, I promised a straightforward answer and here it is:

I know I have a slight conflict of interest regarding this particular character of yours, but your question did remind me of a 3.5 Eberron character who was a chaotic good cleric of the Dark Six.

He had morals he took down from the gods, but the way he saw it, the Dark Six were only evil when compared to their counterparts, and if their message was interpreted "correctly" it could be construed as possibly good. Here's how I reasoned it.

The Devourer: Respect those with power greater than your own. It does no good to pointlessly oppose those who can smite you down rendering your efforts with pointless.

The Fury: Never be afraid to express yourself and your emotion in all walks of life. Show passion in all that you do.

The Keeper: Give nothing away for free. Your generosity will only breed others' greed.

The Mockery: Never let false pretenses of honor and chivalry distract or obstruct you. Your enemies will try to abuse such nobilities to their advantage. Do what feels right to you and do not conform to the standards of others, even your friends.

The Shadow: Magic is a gift, not something to be feared or squandered. Use it generously and as often as you want.

The Traveler: Change is the only constant. Always be prepared to adapt to your surroundings.

Main point being a lot of the stuff considered evil can be construed the other way around.

Exactly. That's why he worships the Traveler-not out of actual reverence, mind you, but he feels a certain amount of kinship-innovate and change or be left behind.

Well, that, and he grew up in Droaam. Worship of the Dark Nature Gods is pretty much institutional there.

Thatguyoverther
2009-08-29, 02:05 AM
I always thought the jedi were evil anyways. Removing all emotion doesn't make you a better person it makes you an automaton. Feeling pain, and sadness are how people are shaped into moral actors. They're doubly evil when you consider how many people they kill without even allowing themselves to feel remorse.


Sith on the other hand. They're super remorsefullness. :smallbiggrin:

As far as playing a character I'd have him consider himself a martyr. He's sacrificing his own purity for the good of the people. Gaining more power isn't about feeling powerful it's about helping and upholding the weak. Missing any opportunity to gain power would be tantamount to killing each and every person that power could have saved.

Coidzor
2009-08-29, 01:38 PM
Wouldn't it basically be some sort of blur between Anti-hero and anti-villain?

Myrmex
2009-08-29, 02:03 PM
Just play him how most people play real life- compartmentalize. He is a good, compassionate man, who will stand up when someone needs defending, will lend or give when someone is wanting, etc, but he also has no problem with dispatching those who carry swords and decide to get in his way.

Kind of like how Warren Buffet can be one of the wealthiest, most powerful men in the world (and, doubtless, totally ruthless to his competition), but donate to charity (his whole fortune goes to foundations when he dies). He uses the system to help those hurt by it.

deuxhero
2009-08-29, 04:04 PM
The Sith Code, as given by KotOR, has some points that could be used, such as drawing strength from emotions.

Tyrmatt
2009-08-29, 04:23 PM
I'd probably play this character as a bit smug. He's realised that the "Light" and the "Dark" sides of the Force are exactly what they are: two sides of the same coin. He chooses to balance the coin on it's edge, riding the precarious path of a life half illuminated and half in shadow. He recognises that the greatest benefit to the greatest number sometimes requires actions that are "questionable" and that his enemies wouldn't even think about showing him mercy no matter how compassionate he is. An attack on one is an attack on all would probably be his personal motto.

To live to either extreme closes options available to him and he'd rather have an open road to get a good run at life.
As a result, I'd say that his Force powers would appear erratic and wild at times. Undisciplined if you will, as all the masters of either side are highly disciplined and focussed. To stay in the middle is to offer flexibility at the expense of perhaps true mastery but he won't have regrets.

A perhaps odd example that springs to mind is Ozymandias from Watchmen. If you don't know what he does in the story, I suggest you look it up.