GURPS and why you should be playing it!

[Jack Zander]

So everything is more GM run, much like ADnD. I like the sound of that.

[fusilier]

When I first started GM'ing for GURPS, it took me a game or two to get comfortable with making up the various penalties/bonuses to attempt certain actions. If you do it consistently though, you'll soon find it fairly easy.

As someone who has run 3rd ed. GURPS, and has played a little bit of 4th edition, I would say don't be afraid of buying the old source books. The major changes were to how attributes are purchased, so at worst templates and characters might have different point values. Then some other minor things like +3 to defenses, changes to how languages work, etc. Most of that will all come out when you actually construct a character.

The only other change between 3rd and 4th that I can remember was a change in terminology when dealing with weapons. Unfortunately I don't remember the 4th edition terms. In 3rd I might have a musket that does 3d++ damage. The "++" means that damage is doubled after I subtract DR from armor. Old muskets usually shot large caliber, lead balls that could do a lot of damage to human flesh and bone, but travelled at relatively low speeds, and being soft lead, armor was more effective against them. There's an equivalent to "++" in 4th ed., but I can't remember what it is.

At any rate, all the old source books are still useful, and there should be a conversion document available for download, if it's necessary. GURPS source books are usually very well made; I've even had cause to reference them for other RPG's.

[PirateMonk]

What I am referring to is a glitch in DnD.

Small characters have a bonus to hide, becuase they are smaller so they can hide in more places and are generally harder to see.

However, this means that a hobbit has a harder time seeing a hobbit, than a human does seeing a human.

And if they gave them spot bonuses, then hobbits are all eagles now.

It just didn't make sense no matter how you stated it, and I was wondering if GURPS had any similar problems.

What makes you think that all races should be equally talented at finding members of their own race?

[Jlerpy]

What makes you think that all races should be equally talented at finding members of their own race?

I believe Jack is actually talking about the fact that it's just as hard for a halfling to spot a hiding halfling as it is for a human to spot one, because there's a Hide bonus for being small, but not a Spot bonus, so halflings can't find each other.

I actually don't think GURPS solves this, as written, but I'd be pretty comfortable with extending the way that Size Modifier works from attacks (it's the relative size modifier that matters, so you don't have ants constantly missing each other) to Vision rolls too.

[Unwitting Pawn]

I actually don't think GURPS solves this, as written, but ...

I agree up to a point. As written, GURPS doesn't expressly give rules for how various SMs affect all skill checks. To a certain extent I was projecting that it did govern hiding, as SM is mentioned as possible modifier for some skills in that area.

OTOH, the paragraph explaining Modifiers on p.B174 indicates that is up to the GM to decide when they apply, and p.B345 covering task difficulty modifiers gives the GM guidelines on task difficulty modifiers, so these things are clearly up to the GM. Also, the fact that the SM scale was designed as a +/- number that can mechanically be used directly as a skill modifier on a 1-for-1 basis should show that the game designers are allowing size to be a factor whenever the GM thinks it would have relevance in affecting the probability of success/failure.

[Kizara]

Hey, sorry for being away from the thread for such a time, but I'm on vacation in Europe (Vienna, Austria, currently) and haven't had a chance to get online (without paying a fortune for it). I'm glad to see that Pawn and others have kept the thread active in the meantime.

Anyways, size differences and SMs work fairly similarly in GURPS as they do in DnD, with the difference being that less abstracted and more integrated, like most GURPS rules.

As far as armor weights go, I DID find armor very heavy, and would certinally be interested in any houserules or conversions done by those more familiar with the real thing. Anyone have any links? :smallwink:

[Sebastian]

However, this means that a hobbit has a harder time seeing a hobbit, than a human does seeing a human.


I can't see the problem with that, the halfing is harder to see because he can fit in smaller hiding places and get complete cover from smaller things (a human can't hide well behind an half-meter high obstacle, an halfling can) I don't see how the observer size can negate that. That would be like saying that if a human kneel down get a bonus to spot (or negate the SM).

Or to put it in another way, what do you think it is harder for an halfling, to spot an hiding human or to spot an hiding halfling?

[Paulus]

Could I make a character who can go toe to toe with anything fighting unarmed, wear a full suit of chain mail with plate additions, plus plate Gauntlets & boots, carries a great sword (like Iron Sword Style from Soul Calibur III), and can breath fire, throw Lightening bolts, go invisible, Fly, breathe underwater, and when needed transform into a huge equivalent Dragon?

[Kizara]

Could I make a character who can go toe to toe with anything fighting unarmed, wear a full suit of chain mail with plate additions, plus plate Gauntlets & boots, carries a great sword (like Iron Sword Style from Soul Calibur III), and can breath fire, throw Lightening bolts, go invisible, Fly, breathe underwater, and when needed transform into a huge equivalent Dragon?

Well, since its not possible to make a character that can beat "anything", I won't address that.

As for the rest:

In GURPS, armor is layered and so with a good strength you can easily wear the armor you describe.

Certinally it is possible to use a great sword as a weapon, and its a pretty nice choice imo.

Assuming, your character can do these things innately as opposed through magical spellcasting;

Breathing of fire and throwing of lightning bolts both would be Innate Attacks, and breath weapons are fairly easy to do with the rules already made up for them specifically.

Invisibility is also an advantage, so that's easy too. As is flight, underwater movement and underwater breathing.

The dragon thing will be a little more complex as although there is a shapeshift advantage, you would have to build the dragon form as almost a seperate character, and then pay a cost to transform into it.

So, essentially, such a character would not only be possible in GURPS, but not terribly difficult to make, with the dragon transformation bit being the only truly tricky part.

[Paulus]

Well, since its not possible to make a character that can beat "anything", I won't address that.

No no, not beat. That would be crazy. Why would I need a dragon form or great sword or any of that other cool stuff if I could 'beat' everything unarmed? I said toe to toe, and what I mean by that is can enter melee and stay there even if he is fighting unarmed. Basically tank, unarmed. and still be okay. Not super effective. But okay. Giving others whom I'm playing with the chance to do their thing while protected.

Possible?

[Kizara]

No no, not beat. That would be crazy. Why would I need a dragon form or great sword or any of that other cool stuff if I could 'beat' everything unarmed? I said toe to toe, and what I mean by that is can enter melee and stay there even if he is fighting unarmed. Basically tank, unarmed. and still be okay. Not super effective. But okay. Giving others whom I'm playing with the chance to do their thing while protected.

Possible?

Not only is unarmed fighting in GURPS possible, it is highly detailed, and I am not very familiar with those rules as we haven't dealt with it yet. However, let me give you some tidbits:

You do not simply have an "unarmed strike", you have a skill level (just like you do for your greatsword, although obviously a different skill) in your form of martial arts, and there are differences:

Styles include:
Brawling
Kung Fu
Judo
Karate

The options and effectiveness of unarmed combat options differ in each style, for instance Karate is great at striking but Judo is great at grappling, especially on defense.

Buying up a good skill level of something like Brawling would allow you to 'mess about' with armed opponents and generally... well, brawl. Punch people, elbow them in the face (these are distinct combat actions) and so forth.

You can Parry unarmed, but it has all the drawbacks that you would imagine trying to parry a broadsword swing with your hand would have. I will say however that unarmed characters generally rely on Dodging, and high mobility, and wearing heavy armor will seriously impair that.

[Paulus]

Not only is unarmed fighting in GURPS possible, it is highly detailed, and I am not very familiar with those rules as we haven't dealt with it yet. However, let me give you some tidbits:

You do not simply have an "unarmed strike", you have a skill level (just like you do for your greatsword, although obviously a different skill) in your form of martial arts, and there are differences:

Styles include:
Brawling
Kung Fu
Judo
Karate

The options and effectiveness of unarmed combat options differ in each style, for instance Karate is great at striking but Judo is great at grappling, especially on defense.

Buying up a good skill level of something like Brawling would allow you to 'mess about' with armed opponents and generally... well, brawl. Punch people, elbow them in the face (these are distinct combat actions) and so forth.

You can Parry unarmed, but it has all the drawbacks that you would imagine trying to parry a broadsword swing with your hand would have. I will say however that unarmed characters generally rely on Dodging, and high mobility, and wearing heavy armor will seriously impair that.

So could a character take Jujitsu (which would basically use anything as improvised weapons and various strike maneuvers), wearing chain-mail-with-plates armor for the very reason he uses his body as a weapon and for protection, WHILE still able to use all the other things I mentioned be possible and not only possible but Tank well enough to not need another tank?

[Kizara]

So could a character take Jujitsu (which would basically use anything as improvised weapons and various strike maneuvers), wearing chain-mail-with-plates armor for the very reason he uses his body as a weapon and for protection, WHILE still able to use all the other things I mentioned be possible and not only possible but Tank well enough to not need another tank?

1) I'm not sure, as I don't know enough about Jujistu in RL (I am not a martial-artist) and am AFB to research exactly how GURPS deals with it. There is a slam attack, which deals with throwing your weight into your opponent, and I believe total mass matters there, so wearing heavy armor helps.

2) Your armor would likely be chain pieces (shirt, sleeves, coif, etc) with plates layered over top of them, which is basically the heaviest armor possible (although there is double plate, which is a bit heavier and offers 1 DR point more in armor).

3) Its a matter of point costs. You can have a character that has 20 different styles of fighting (different energy attacks, different weapon skills, different martial-art forms, etc) but you have to pay for all of them and you can only generally use one at a time and only so many backups are useful. Likewise, you can sink all of your points into 'tanking' elements (innate DR, extra HP, improved active defenses, etc), and not have much useful offense.

4) Very few things are mutually-exclusive. For instance, flight is a 40 pt advantage; assuming you have the character points to spend on it, the fact that your character also uses a greatsword to fight has no actual relevance. However, the GM determines the kind of campaign he wants and what sorts of characters are viable. Thus, if he wants a realistic medivael game, having a character that can inexplicably do the supernatural things you describe would be out.

5) As far as how well you would "tank", and whether another "tank" would be needed, that is highly subjective and to an extent not a valid question. Although I will say that if you can turn into a "huge dragon", with all the toughness and mobility that implies, you could likely protect others well enough that no other defensive person would be needed. However, if you were still normal-sized, you would need many other combatants to hold an area in defense, or be threatening enough that you can kill anyone that tries to get past you.

I will say also that investing in all the expensive elements you want here (assuming you want those energy attacks to be powerful, not simply showy flavor) would mean other characters investing a like amount of points into defense could be a better tank then you, although the special case of the dragon form means I can't say for sure.

[Paulus]

1) I'm not sure, as I don't know enough about Jujistu in RL (I am not a martial-artist) and am AFB to research exactly how GURPS deals with it. There is a slam attack, which deals with throwing your weight into your opponent, and I believe total mass matters there, so wearing heavy armor helps.

The Practice I speak of boiled down basically would be the same as the drunken master feat for Improvised Weapons, with the addition of strikes and such, enhanced by the gauntlets and plate boots.


2) Your armor would likely be chain pieces (shirt, sleeves, coif, etc) with plates layered over top of them, which is basically the heaviest armor possible (although there is double plate, which is a bit heavier and offers 1 DR point more in armor).

A full chain suit covering from ankle to wrist to neck, buckled and strapped so the weight proportion hangs from the shoulders and waist and limbs to limbs, basically only inhibiting movement via the over all weight, which, being chain would be within the range of twenty pounds in separate sections. The Addition of plates would be somewhere in the neighborhood of Pauldrons, cuirass, and tassels. With the Guantelts and greaves covering vitals (torso, crotch, hands, feet) in a second layer of plate armor with a under layer of chain for everything else. The armor lacks a helmet only for the convention of "you can always see the hero's face" but it is an option.


3) Its a matter of point costs. You can have a character that has 20 different styles of fighting (different energy attacks, different weapon skills, different martial-art forms, etc) but you have to pay for all of them and you can only generally use one at a time and only so many backups are useful. Likewise, you can sink all of your points into 'tanking' elements (innate DR, extra HP, improved active defenses, etc), and not have much useful offense.

Which is why I ask specifically if he could go toe to toe and still use all of the other suggestions. If he would be able to stand toe to toe, especially since he is risking so much armor for that purpose while still keeping more maneuverability and less weight than full plate armor of old.


4) Very few things are mutually-exclusive. For instance, flight is a 40 pt advantage; assuming you have the character points to spend on it, the fact that your character also uses a greatsword to fight has no actual relevance. However, the GM determines the kind of campaign he wants and what sorts of characters are viable. Thus, if he wants a realistic medivael game, having a character that can inexplicably do the supernatural things you describe would be out.

Magic can or can not be relevant, all things are up to DM whim, but I am only asking if it is possible.


5) As far as how well you would "tank", and whether another "tank" would be needed, that is highly subjective and to an extent not a valid question. Although I will say that if you can turn into a "huge dragon", with all the toughness and mobility that implies, you could likely protect others well enough that no other defensive person would be needed. However, if you were still normal-sized, you would need many other combatants to hold an area in defense, or be threatening enough that you can kill anyone that tries to get past you.

Well assuming point totals were spent to get everything I wanted, (discount the dragon for the moment for special occasions.) would I still have enough coupled with the armor to be able to go toe to toe and survive?


I will say also that investing in all the expensive elements you want here (assuming you want those energy attacks to be powerful, not simply showy flavor) would mean other characters investing a like amount of points into defense could be a better tank then you, although the special case of the dragon form means I can't say for sure.

Well Comparing to other characters isn't my point, just if everything I am asking is possible. and by possible I mean will actually work well. in that- He has all of these abilities: Flight, Breath under water, Breath Fire, Throw Lightening Bolts, go invisible, AND be able to still go toe to toe markedly well against most instances where it is called for WITH the consideration of his armor for that very purpose AND the possibility of use a sword that is similar in size to Cloud's ON TOP of the spectacular ability to turn into a Dragon when all else fails?

Is this possible? Viable? Can I do it? And can I do it well with GURPS?

[Yora]

Question: The first post said something about active blocking and hit areas and stuff.
Are those optional advanced rules, or part of the basic rules?
Because I think that would make combat encounters very dice intensive and drawn out, and distract from the fact, that the events are an integral part of the plot.

[Kizara]

Question: The first post said something about active blocking and hit areas and stuff.
Are those optional advanced rules, or part of the basic rules?
Because I think that would make combat encounters very dice intensive and drawn out, and distract from the fact, that the events are an integral part of the plot.

Well, active defenses are part of the basic rules and hit locations are technically not, but they are fairly important add-ons. I honestly feel that these two elements alone are what make GURPS combat much more satisfying both from a roleplaying and tactical perspective.

As for how dice-intensive it is, that has been discussed extensively during this thread, but I will say (again) that GURPS is not a rules-light system, and if you feel that combat should be dealt with by cooperative narration alone, then its combat system will not be useful to you. As a system, it may be useful to you solely to create and stats-out character ideas for use in your freeform. I will also say again that combat does not take longer then any 3.5 combat I've run at levels higher then 3.

[Kizara]

The Practice I speak of boiled down basically would be the same as the drunken master feat for Improvised Weapons, with the addition of strikes and such, enhanced by the gauntlets and plate boots.

There is a 'throw anything' cinematic (basically meaning unrealistic/stretching reality greatly) skill, whose name escapes me at the moment. And striking with some styles (like brawling, I believe) does deal extra damage with covered limbs as you describe.




A full chain suit covering from ankle to wrist to neck, buckled and strapped so the weight proportion hangs from the shoulders and waist and limbs to limbs, basically only inhibiting movement via the over all weight, which, being chain would be within the range of twenty pounds in separate sections. The Addition of plates would be somewhere in the neighborhood of Pauldrons, cuirass, and tassels. With the Guantelts and greaves covering vitals (torso, crotch, hands, feet) in a second layer of plate armor with a under layer of chain for everything else. The armor lacks a helmet only for the convention of "you can always see the hero's face" but it is an option.

While kind of odd, this is all possible. As there are hit locations, there are armor locations, and chain does not weigh that much, nor do Sorellets (greaves) or Gaunlets. Also, only a few helms are closed-face, and they restrict your vision (although they are good defensively, you can also have a face mask (or visor).



Which is why I ask specifically if he could go toe to toe and still use all of the other suggestions. If he would be able to stand toe to toe, especially since he is risking so much armor for that purpose while still keeping more maneuverability and less weight than full plate armor of old.

Well assuming point totals were spent to get everything I wanted, (discount the dragon for the moment for special occasions.) would I still have enough coupled with the armor to be able to go toe to toe and survive?

Well, you want a high ST (strength) for this style of character, and more HP on top of that. Coming from the dragon theme, you would probably also buy some natural DR (which stacks with your armor, obviously) and have a good parry with your greatsword. So, while not the most defensive character possible surely, I think you would far pretty well in direct combat and be able to trade blows.


Well Comparing to other characters isn't my point, just if everything I am asking is possible. and by possible I mean will actually work well. in that- He has all of these abilities: Flight, Breath under water, Breath Fire, Throw Lightening Bolts, go invisible, AND be able to still go toe to toe markedly well against most instances where it is called for WITH the consideration of his armor for that very purpose AND the possibility of use a sword that is similar in size to Cloud's ON TOP of the spectacular ability to turn into a Dragon when all else fails?

Is this possible? Viable? Can I do it? And can I do it well with GURPS?

All of this is possible to simulate, accurately and not in vague terms using the rules provided. Some things (like the oversized sword) might take a bit of looking to find (but I remember seeing something for it, with that example given I believe) but its all in there. I think the character, as described would have a variety of useful abilities, be quite good at the role you describe for him and stand up pretty well to direct combat. He also would be a higher-power and point total character, suitable for such a campaign.

I'll also say, as a side point, that flight comes in a few varieties, from the default (superman zooom style) to large wings (like dragons would have), which might interest you. The big wings style is 10 points cheaper because it is less maneauverable and convient.

Now, as for the dragon thing, let me tell you that there are limitators that you could apply to your powerful and expensive shapeshifting ehancement that would make its cost far more reasonable, that include:

Emergency Only
Unreliable (requires a roll to activate)
Once per day (default is unlimited use)
Accessibility (only while in flight)

So even this, is able to be modeled in the exact way that you want as an "when all else fails" emergency move, which is different (and far cheaper) then someone who could morph into a similar dragon at will and thus used it as a main combat forms.

[Unwitting Pawn]

Hello Paulus, this is a general point about your character idea:

In order to build such a PC properly would probably cost a large amount of points and also requires a fairly cinematic setting/gameworld where such traits are available/viable for PCs. So, while you could certainly build the PC you wanted under such a campaign, there is no saying that it would be as effective at achieving all your aims as you would hope. Other PCs for same points may be better at "tanking" for example and the power level of such a campaign could well mean that the opponents your PC would face are too dangerous to go toe-to-toe with while unarmed.

It's possible to build virtually any concept within the flexibility of GURPS. But the flexibility and scope of the system means that it is harder to judge effectiveness by looking a character sheet in isolation. "Effectiveness" is not some sort of universal absolute.

[PirateMonk]

There is a 'throw anything' cinematic (basically meaning unrealistic/stretching reality greatly) skill, whose name escapes me at the moment.

It's called Throwing Art, I believe.

[Unwitting Pawn]

Question: The first post said something about active blocking and hit areas and stuff.
Are those optional advanced rules, or part of the basic rules?
Because I think that would make combat encounters very dice intensive and drawn out, and distract from the fact, that the events are an integral part of the plot.

As Kizara has already indicated, the hit location rules are optional, whereas the Active Defences are core to the rules.

Active Defences do mean that the defender rolls as well as the attacker, but the benefit that this system gives far outways the downside of an extra roll IMO. The lack of abstraction means that combat is more dramatic, not less.

I've seen posts on this forum discussing how to make shields more useful/important in D&D. Whereas the way combat works in GURPS means that normal mundane shields are useful as standard (just like they were IRL before gunpowder/firearms). Block is usually an excellent defensive option.

As for optional hit location rules, this doesn't require extra rolls - it merely gives the attacker more choice and the player's don't have to use it. Locations have various penalties to the attacker's roll, but this can be critical for the defender if they land. It also allows wearing different armour on different locations to mean something.

[Unwitting Pawn]

Not only is unarmed fighting in GURPS possible, it is highly detailed, and I am not very familiar with those rules as we haven't dealt with it yet. However, let me give you some tidbits:

You do not simply have an "unarmed strike", you have a skill level (just like you do for your greatsword, although obviously a different skill) in your form of martial arts, and there are differences:

Styles include:
Brawling
Kung Fu
Judo
Karate

The options and effectiveness of unarmed combat options differ in each style, for instance Karate is great at striking but Judo is great at grappling, especially on defense.

Buying up a good skill level of something like Brawling would allow you to 'mess about' with armed opponents and generally... well, brawl. Punch people, elbow them in the face (these are distinct combat actions) and so forth.

You can Parry unarmed, but it has all the drawbacks that you would imagine trying to parry a broadsword swing with your hand would have. I will say however that unarmed characters generally rely on Dodging, and high mobility, and wearing heavy armor will seriously impair that.

I think you may be confusing the issue here. In GURPS terminology the following are Skills:

Boxing, Brawling and Karate - used for striking attacks
Judo, Sumo Wrestling and Wrestling - used for grappling attacks

A well-rounded unarmed fighter should probably take levels in both a striking and grappling Skill.

Styles are something different in GURPS terms, and represent a collection of Skills and Perks in order to represent real-world (or GM invented campaign-specific) martial arts styles. The rules for this were introduced in GURPS Martial Arts and aren't necessary, but certainly add a lot of flavour and distinction for both armed and unarmed warriors. The following are some of the Styles in that book:

Boxing (3 different styles)
Capoeira
Fencing (4 different styles)
Jujutsu (2 different styles)
Karate (5 different styles)
Knightly Mounted Combat (3 different styles)
Kung Fu (10-14 different styles, depending on where you draw the line)
Longsword Fighting
Muay Thai
Spear Fighting (5 different styles)

[Paulus]

There is a 'throw anything' cinematic (basically meaning unrealistic/stretching reality greatly) skill, whose name escapes me at the moment. And striking with some styles (like brawling, I believe) does deal extra damage with covered limbs as you describe.

While kind of odd, this is all possible. As there are hit locations, there are armor locations, and chain does not weigh that much, nor do Sorellets (greaves) or Gaunlets. Also, only a few helms are closed-face, and they restrict your vision (although they are good defensively, you can also have a face mask (or visor).

Well, you want a high ST (strength) for this style of character, and more HP on top of that. Coming from the dragon theme, you would probably also buy some natural DR (which stacks with your armor, obviously) and have a good parry with your greatsword. So, while not the most defensive character possible surely, I think you would far pretty well in direct combat and be able to trade blows.

All of this is possible to simulate, accurately and not in vague terms using the rules provided. Some things (like the oversized sword) might take a bit of looking to find (but I remember seeing something for it, with that example given I believe) but its all in there. I think the character, as described would have a variety of useful abilities, be quite good at the role you describe for him and stand up pretty well to direct combat. He also would be a higher-power and point total character, suitable for such a campaign.

I'll also say, as a side point, that flight comes in a few varieties, from the default (superman zooom style) to large wings (like dragons would have), which might interest you. The big wings style is 10 points cheaper because it is less maneauverable and convient.

Now, as for the dragon thing, let me tell you that there are limitators that you could apply to your powerful and expensive shapeshifting ehancement that would make its cost far more reasonable, that include:

Emergency Only
Unreliable (requires a roll to activate)
Once per day (default is unlimited use)
Accessibility (only while in flight)

So even this, is able to be modeled in the exact way that you want as an "when all else fails" emergency move, which is different (and far cheaper) then someone who could morph into a similar dragon at will and thus used it as a main combat forms.


mmm as long as that character, which was apparently the hardest character to achieve I've EVER come across and achieve effectively, is possible and can be done possibly WELL. I'll remember to keep on eye on it once 3.5 looses 'world wide' steam. It's hard enough getting a group for it as it is in my area. Perhaps with GURPS which doesn't seem to change or 'improve' every freaking year into bigger and better and thus far different versions I won't be wasting my money on the planned obsolescence for table top gaming that hit computer gaming and seems to be an unending trend. I'll need my social gathering group story telling fix SOMEWHERE and if D&D is going the way of the MMO, then I shall have to look elsewhere. I will remember GURPS then.

Thank you for your patience, your time and your help!

[Unwitting Pawn]

As far as armor weights go, I DID find armor very heavy, and would certinally be interested in any houserules or conversions done by those more familiar with the real thing. Anyone have any links? :smallwink:

Armour (and other item) weights is a legacy issue - a hold-over from the previous edition. The long-anticipated "official" fix will be in the new GURPS Low Tech, which IIRC is probably around early playtest stage at the moment, and anticipated to be out sometime next year. It should be a good one - the authors for this project know their stuff.

[BillyJimBoBob]

1) Less balance headaches! Sure, its not completely gone, but its an easier foundation to start with to houserule problems away.GURPS has the same balance issues that plague 3.5: Magic is much more potent than martial. Any well build caster will walk all over any well build martial character. And as far as simply "houseruling problems away", what you propose amounts to a complete re-write of the magic system, just as balancing full casters in D&D 3.5 would require a comprehensive re-write of the magic system.


2) More versitile! If you like homebrewing even a little bit, you'll love GURPS because you almost homebrew each character in that you can customize each trait, advantage (kinda like Feats) and so forth to a very large degree.Agreed, you can play anything you can conceive of. You'll have some of the same issues as some bizarre character options in 3.5 do, with regards to needing to commit large amounts of character build points to purchasing the features you want. This is closely analogous to playing a character in 3.5 with a few LA penalties: You'll never be as effective as a character build without these penalties. This plays back to your point 1) as balance is impossible if one player builds a character which is optimized and another player builds some wacky character concept which is fun but not very effective.

3) More character customization! Between making interesting personality elements with disadvantages (like Klepomania and Klutz, or Bloodlust and Callous, just to name 4 of like 100 options), choosing EXACTLY the skills you want (no more class skills, or classes at all for that matter), make EXACTLY the character you want to play!.Again, there are plenty of poor character creation options. Having many options isn't always a good thing when some of them are traps.

4) More tactical, interesting and diverse combat! Like combat in 3.5? Ever use anything from Unearthed Arcana? Well this is going to be like crack for you! Combat involves active defenses (shield blocks, dodges and parries) and an actual hit is huge! With comprensive rules for damage types, injuries, disabling limbs, hit locations, layered armor, per-second rounds that allow for maximum simultaniety and more, its the deepest, best combat simulation that isn't a pain in the arse to run!Combat in GURPS is painfully slow. The combat rules are very simulationist, very detailed, and very kludgey. If you like tossing lots of dice and adding and subtracting lots of modifiers, you'll like GURPS combat. But after you've scored a hit be prepared for the active defenses of your opponent to turn it into a miss. After another handful of dice get tossed and more addition and subtraction of modifiers, of course. Expect any two competent fighters to trade many attacks before seeing anything actually land. And once a blow actually lands armor acts as a direct subtraction to the damage, possibly resulting in yet another exchange of dice rolling with no effect.


6) Its realistic! Most of the game is designed to be realistic and simulationist-oriented. There are rules (and comprehensive and good ones) for more cinematic, and/or silly games, the default assumption is a more gritty and realistic RPG. I can't even begin to list how many rules it has that are more realistic then 3ed. Also, it isn't as hyper-gritty as some systems. Although far more realistic then DnD, it still isn't as random or brutal as other systems.No argument here. GURPS combat is brutally realistic. It's almost a good thing how often a hit in combat is turned into a miss, as a solid blow or two and a character is very likely to be dead. And this doesn't change as your character advances, since HP are based upon attributes which rarely change by any significant amount during play. Instead your skills in combat increase, making it more likely that you turn an opponent's hit on your character into a miss.

Despite my generally negative comments on GURPS, it is a system that a fun game can be played in. Just get used to the word "sidebar", as many vital rules are located within sidebars. This makes rules references often problematic.

[Kizara]

GURPS has the same balance issues that plague 3.5: Magic is much more potent than martial. Any well build caster will walk all over any well build martial character. And as far as simply "houseruling problems away", what you propose amounts to a complete re-write of the magic system, just as balancing full casters in D&D 3.5 would require a comprehensive re-write of the magic system.

Hardly. For one thing, even at its heights GURPS magic doesn't have the power that 3.5 does, and in fact this is a minor complaint I have of the system that I intend to fix by homebrewing new, high-end spells. Furthermore, see this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121848) on dealing with the magic system. In short, if you don't allow people to cast spells for no cost and no time, it stays perfectly fine. Spells by default have a casting time of multiple rounds, and it takes effort to reduce that.


Agreed, you can play anything you can conceive of. You'll have some of the same issues as some bizarre character options in 3.5 do, with regards to needing to commit large amounts of character build points to purchasing the features you want. This is closely analogous to playing a character in 3.5 with a few LA penalties: You'll never be as effective as a character build without these penalties. This plays back to your point 1) as balance is impossible if one player builds a character which is optimized and another player builds some wacky character concept which is fun but not very effective.

This isn't a system problem as I see it. The difference between 3e and GURPS here is that you don't have an arbitrary and often unreasonable penalty as you do in 3e, you instead get what you pay for. If you go out of your way to make something silly and ineffectual... it will be silly and ineffectual. You think the system should give you and artificial crutch if you want to play something that has no way of contrbuting, or ensure that you can no matter what choices you make? I suggest 4e for you then, as its built with that exact mindset.

Now, note I didn't say 'optimal', I said "deliberately silly or ineffectual". For instance, if you spend all of your points on... say... different senses (this is possible if rather unlikely), so you are just a glorified alarm and radar system that speaks, and you are shocked that you can't contribute in combat like the knight character can, well... reap what you sow, and so forth.


Again, there are plenty of poor character creation options. Having many options isn't always a good thing when some of them are traps.

Please give an example. You have to pick something that seems like a good idea, but actually isn't (hence a trap), not something that is fairly obviously inappropriate.



Combat in GURPS is painfully slow. The combat rules are very simulationist, very detailed, and very kludgey. If you like tossing lots of dice and adding and subtracting lots of modifiers, you'll like GURPS combat. But after you've scored a hit be prepared for the active defenses of your opponent to turn it into a miss. After another handful of dice get tossed and more addition and subtraction of modifiers, of course.

There isn't that many modifiers, and they are always the same depending on your actions. For instance, quarterstaffs have +2 parry (rather rare), this applies to your parry score, but hardly has to be added-in every time. Also, as I have given examples above, if you go for harder shots in combat you have a penalty to your attack roll, but again these are about 3 special attack options, and hit locations. I do not find it kludgey because it is intuitive, very well presented and understandable, and allows for a funner combat. That said, resolving combat actions do tend to take a bit longer for the unfamiliar.


Expect any two competent fighters to trade many attacks before seeing anything actually land. And once a blow actually lands armor acts as a direct subtraction to the damage, possibly resulting in yet another exchange of dice rolling with no effect.

This is true. I personally find it much more satisfying and realistic, and more of a tactical challenge to get around my opponent's defenses then simply rolling vs a static number, and hitting more often then not for a %age of HP. It doesn't feel like much of a real fight, more like playing a game and watching one character deal its damage to another.


No argument here. GURPS combat is brutally realistic. It's almost a good thing how often a hit in combat is turned into a miss, as a solid blow or two and a character is very likely to be dead. And this doesn't change as your character advances, since HP are based upon attributes which rarely change by any significant amount during play. Instead your skills in combat increase, making it more likely that you turn an opponent's hit on your character into a miss.

Only argument I have here is that in a small departure from realism, its actually somewhat hard to die from GURPS combat, although, as you describe, its easy to be 'downed' or take injury. This is because to avoid dieing when in negative HP you have to make a health (HT) roll, and if your health is at all decent this is not very hard. My current character has a 14 HT, with Fit (+1 to all HT rolls) and Hard to Kill 2 (+2 to HT rolls to avoid death: a 4 pt adv only) mean, unless I am down more then my current HP total in negatives, I have to roll under 17 on 3d6, which is practically a shoe-in.

Also, HP can be bought seperately for a cheap 1 HP/2pts, and its generally a good idea to do so. Many effects (like how hard it is to chop off your arm) are a function of your HP.



Despite my generally negative comments on GURPS, it is a system that a fun game can be played in. Just get used to the word "sidebar", as many vital rules are located within sidebars. This makes rules references often problematic.

I made up a cheatsheet for all the rules we use often for easy reference, its about 3 pages long and helps in what you describe.

[Unwitting Pawn]

GURPS has the same balance issues that plague 3.5: Magic is much more potent than martial. Any well build caster will walk all over any well build martial character. And as far as simply "houseruling problems away", what you propose amounts to a complete re-write of the magic system, just as balancing full casters in D&D 3.5 would require a comprehensive re-write of the magic system.

I think you are doing GURPS a disservice here. Sure the default "spell magic" rules in GURPS may be quick and powerful, but that is as much to provide something similar to what players of other RPGs will be expecting as anything. There is no law saying that GMs have to use that system. It is meant to be customised by the GM as necessary and plenty of suggestions are given for this. In fact, plenty of official alternatives are available and there is a whole book for GM to specifically build the magic system they want. As for balance, a GURPS spellcaster might be powerful, but they are not omnipotent and cannot take fighters or other combat types for granted.


Agreed, you can play anything you can conceive of. You'll have some of the same issues as some bizarre character options in 3.5 do, with regards to needing to commit large amounts of character build points to purchasing the features you want. This is closely analogous to playing a character in 3.5 with a few LA penalties: You'll never be as effective as a character build without these penalties. This plays back to your point 1) as balance is impossible if one player builds a character which is optimized and another player builds some wacky character concept which is fun but not very effective.

GM interaction in the PC build process is not optional. The wide range of options does not mean that every option is valid for every type of campaign. GURPS is designed with a much wider scope than D&D or even D20.


Again, there are plenty of poor character creation options. Having many options isn't always a good thing when some of them are traps.

This comment perhaps indicates a philosophy that see RPGs as an exercise in min-maxing rather than roleplaying. Not all options are created equal, but not all are good or bad solely upon that criterion.


Combat in GURPS is painfully slow. The combat rules are very simulationist, very detailed, and very kludgey. If you like tossing lots of dice and adding and subtracting lots of modifiers, you'll like GURPS combat. But after you've scored a hit be prepared for the active defenses of your opponent to turn it into a miss. After another handful of dice get tossed and more addition and subtraction of modifiers, of course. Expect any two competent fighters to trade many attacks before seeing anything actually land. And once a blow actually lands armor acts as a direct subtraction to the damage, possibly resulting in yet another exchange of dice rolling with no effect.

Slower perhaps, but not painfully so. GURPS gives you more choices in combat that actually mean something. If you want boring combats that abstract everything then play D&D. If you want dramatic fights were your warrior makes meaningful decisions during the fight then play GURPS.


No argument here. GURPS combat is brutally realistic. It's almost a good thing how often a hit in combat is turned into a miss, as a solid blow or two and a character is very likely to be dead. And this doesn't change as your character advances, since HP are based upon attributes which rarely change by any significant amount during play. Instead your skills in combat increase, making it more likely that you turn an opponent's hit on your character into a miss.

The advantage of GURPS combat being built on realism is this can be dialled down or the cinematic options maxed-out at the choice of the GM/players as the needs of the campaign require. Conversely, it is harder to increase the grittiness of a system not built on realism without breaking the game.


Despite my generally negative comments on GURPS, it is a system that a fun game can be played in. Just get used to the word "sidebar", as many vital rules are located within sidebars. This makes rules references often problematic.

Is your experience with GURPS 3e or GURPS 4e? I ask because the new edition doesn't use "sidebars".

[BillyJimBoBob]

GURPS has the same balance issues that plague 3.5: Magic is much more potent than martial. Any well build caster will walk all over any well build martial character.Hardly. For one thing, even at its heights GURPS magic doesn't have the power that 3.5 does, and in fact this is a minor complaint I have of the system that I intend to fix by homebrewing new, high-end spells. Furthermore, see this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121848) on dealing with the magic system. In short, if you don't allow people to cast spells for no cost and no time, it stays perfectly fine. Spells by default have a casting time of multiple rounds, and it takes effort to reduce that.GURPS doesn't have the broad "fix any problem" issues that D&D 3.5 magic does, but it is still plenty powerful and far outweighs martial prowess in effectiveness. So the parallel is a fair one: Both systems favor casters over non-casters. Making it take effort to reduce spell casting times overlooks one flaw in the reasoning: It can be done. And it is rather well worth the investment. And you plan to homebrew even more potency into the GURPS magic system? That's kind of like Pathfinder "fixes" all the broken in D&D 3.5 magic: By adding more, more, more. This is a classic flaw in game design: Magic simply "ought to be" more powerful. Just because it is magic.

Please give an example [of a trap in character design]. You have to pick something that seems like a good idea, but actually isn't (hence a trap), not something that is fairly obviously inappropriate.Easily done: Not being a caster.

There isn't that many modifiers, and they are always the same depending on your actions. For instance, quarterstaffs have +2 parry (rather rare), this applies to your parry score, but hardly has to be added-in every time. Also, as I have given examples above, if you go for harder shots in combat you have a penalty to your attack roll, but again these are about 3 special attack options, and hit locations.Perhaps my knowledge is from a prior version, or my memory might be failing me. It has been many years since I've played GURPS. I recall quarterstaff and fencing giving a 2/3 skill parry rather than a 1/2 skill parry (i.e. I have an 18 quarterstaff skill, so my parry roll is 12 rather than 9), not a static bonus. And called shot to the eye a -10 to hit, with leg, arm, neck, head, etc, etc possible. And many other possible modifiers as well. And this was from the "core" book, and perhaps the GURPS Fantasy book as well.

My two favorite characters were a swashbuckling rapier wielder and a plainsman (think native American tech culture vs. medieval tech culture) who wielded a spear using quarterstaff rules. Both were fairly lightly armored but highly defensive fighter types. I had about a 90% chance to turn an opponents hit into a miss. But neither was able to do any of the fantastic things the spell caster could do: Effortlessly (and I mean effortlessly, it cost little or no fatigue and could be maintained indefinitely while the character was awake) stone shaping, able to carve stairs for the party into solid rock, close off rooms for us to rest and recover in, and separate groups of monsters from one another so that we could destroy them piecemeal. Magic-proof, and with several buffs spells permanently up which made physical damage almost impossible. This character essentially became the GMs foil: Every encounter had to be designed to challenge this character, and that essentially made everyone else nearly useless. Just as happens in D&D 3.5 when a caster plays to the strengths of the broken magic system. It took a potent psionics based NPC to challenge the caster, and that encounter killed us all without anyone other than the caster taking a single action which impacted the fight. Such fun... So yeah, I know of what I speak, as I have seen it on more than a single occasion. Perhaps later revisions have fixed everything, but I highly doubt it as it is so very common for fantasy RPGs to heavily favor the caster over the martial character.

[The Big Dice]

<snip>But neither was able to do any of the fantastic things the spell caster could do: Effortlessly (and I mean effortlessly, it cost little or no fatigue and could be maintained indefinitely while the character was awake) stone shaping, able to carve stairs for the party into solid rock, close off rooms for us to rest and recover in, and separate groups of monsters from one another so that we could destroy them piecemeal. Magic-proof, and with several buffs spells permanently up which made physical damage almost impossible. This character essentially became the GMs foil: Every encounter had to be designed to challenge this character, and that essentially made everyone else nearly useless.
I've started playing GURPS again recently, mostly because I really like the setting in GURPS Fantasy, but for a few other idiosyncratic reasons as well, and something about this example jars. GURPS is more about small scale tactical magic than games like D&D. And every spell a caster has 'up' gives a -1 penalty to every other spell that caster casts. And they cost Fatigue to cast, either that or you need to use a slow to recharge Powerstone to fuel your spells.

If this guy had several buffs, say 4 for the sake of argument, that's a net -4 to every other spell he casts. And enchanting takes forever while costing a small fortune in GURPS, so making items isn't really a viable option unless you want to take your wizard out of play for a year or two of game time.

So yes, GURPS casters can be powerful, if made right. But the sytem also recognises this and puts checks in place to make sure that they don't overpower other concepts.

[Unwitting Pawn]

Perhaps my knowledge is from a prior version, or my memory might be failing me. It has been many years since I've played GURPS. I recall quarterstaff and fencing giving a 2/3 skill parry rather than a 1/2 skill parry (i.e. I have an 18 quarterstaff skill, so my parry roll is 12 rather than 9), not a static bonus.

This indicates that your knowledge is out of date, as this is from a prior version. GURPS 4e has been the current edition for 5 years now.

That said, I couldn't say that your experiences (of a spell-caster being allowed to sideline or overshadow every other PC in the group) would not have happened in GURPS 4e either. However, that is because your examples indicate to me more an issue with the GM or play-style, than with the system itself.

[Kizara]

BillyJimBoBob:

You were playing 3e GURPS, things have improved since then. For one thing, the rules are easier to understand and play with (while losing very little to none of their power of simulation).

Now, for casters, in addition to what Big Dice has said (welcome to the forums btw, Dice), if you followed my link or read what I said about 'fixing' magic, you'll see that the main point is to not allow 0 fatigue 0 time spells, at least not without massive investment.

Ok, to be fair I have not played enough GURPS yet to say this definatively, and have not played a caster at all yet, but when I look at fireball (for example), and see that it would take me half of my likely fatigue points to cast one of good power and area (10 yards, 5d6 damage), I can see wizards being fearsome, but its at a pretty big cost.

[Jlerpy]

Armour (and other item) weights is a legacy issue - a hold-over from the previous edition. The long-anticipated "official" fix will be in the new GURPS Low Tech, which IIRC is probably around early playtest stage at the moment, and anticipated to be out sometime next year. It should be a good one - the authors for this project know their stuff.

It's out of playtest and into editing. Last I heard, editing was about a third done.

[Jlerpy]

BillyJimBoBob:

You were playing 3e GURPS, things have improved since then. For one thing, the rules are easier to understand and play with (while losing very little to none of their power of simulation).

Now, for casters, in addition to what Big Dice has said (welcome to the forums btw, Dice), if you followed my link or read what I said about 'fixing' magic, you'll see that the main point is to not allow 0 fatigue 0 time spells, at least not without massive investment.

I'd say instant casting is a bit more of an issue than 0 Fatigue cost. You need to be pretty powerful to get anything more than the most basic of spells for free.
But they removed the ability to reduce spells to instant casting time in 4th Ed, so that's sorted. Aside from Blocking spells (which are basically like a Parry or Dodge) you can't casting anything faster than 1 second (not going into high cost options like Compartmentalised Mind).


Ok, to be fair I have not played enough GURPS yet to say this definatively, and have not played a caster at all yet, but when I look at fireball (for example), and see that it would take me half of my likely fatigue points to cast one of good power and area (10 yards, 5d6 damage), I can see wizards being fearsome, but its at a pretty big cost.

And that's a bare minimum of Magery 2 as well, which already means you're a pretty serious spellcaster.

[Cybren]

Like in D&D, the most 'powerful' GURPS mages aren't going for damage anyway- after all it will always take a minimum of two turns to hit someone with a fireball. Better to throw Sleep, or Itch, or! Essential Air and Ignite fire! Even then, though a GURPS mage isn't going to be "more powerful" in a fight than a GURPS fighter.

[Kizara]

Just wanted to add something;

The current editior and writer of GURPS, the "head guy" over there, as well as his main assistant, are both active members of their forums. Compare this to the nonsense that WotC has been pulling lately, and its just unreal.

Also, they are both nice, as illustrated by his directly answering my newbie questions on the system and the BS things I want to do with it.

Not saying you should all stop posting here, this community is great, but I just was so impressed by this that I had to share. ;)

[fusilier]

Armor

Yes, armor and many hand-to-hand weapons seem to be overweight, by their rules. As a GM I never paid too much attention to encumbrance or their listed weights, I've actually worn breast and back plate, and I know that it doesn't weigh 30 lbs! Anyway, for 3rd edition there was a pdf floating around, I think it was called "GURPS Gothic Armor". Not sure where to get it, but it had somewhat more realistic looking stats.


GURPS rules
The differences between 3rd edition and 4th are really quite minimal, it's really how the rules are presented (which can make a big difference in understanding them). I've actually been playing in a 3rd edition game recently that involves magic, so I've finally gotten a look at how it works. You would have to have rather high point characters in GURPS to have magic anywhere near D&D levels. At which point I would imagine that non-magic using characters would be pretty powerful. GURPS has a rather detailed magic system. For example, you can't simply learn the fireball spell. You have to first learn a bunch of minor fire related spells. Even then, the fireball spell maxes out at around 3D6 of damage. Now, that's fire damage so it's pretty powerful, but not much more powerful than an early musket.

Advanced combat rules in GURPS are fun, but they can be a headache, until you've played with them a while, and begin to understand what is necessary and what isn't for the particular combat. I've found that trying to grapple might really slow things down. But, while combat is generally fairly long, I don't feel it's much worse than the various versions of D&D I've played. It also depends upon the weapons used, the number of belligerents, etc. I've seen gun armed combat last about 5 minutes in real time (more like a round or two in game time), because everybody was in the same room, and it was really difficult to miss.

[HamHam]

So I've been looking at some stuff and trying to make a sample character to get some idea of how things work, and I have a question:

Let's say I have a katana. Apparently you can use either the one handed or two handed sword skill with.

What would be the mechanical difference between these two and how would you benefit from having both skills?

[Jlerpy]

So I've been looking at some stuff and trying to make a sample character to get some idea of how things work, and I have a question:

Let's say I have a katana. Apparently you can use either the one handed or two handed sword skill with.

What would be the mechanical difference between these two and how would you benefit from having both skills?

Using it two-handed increases the damage you deal with a Swing by +1 and reduces the minimum ST by 1 (plus some other bits and pieces from Martial Arts, like shifting to a Defensive Grip to focus defense against one opponent, stuff like that). Using it single-handed means you can do stuff with your other hand.
Having both skills means you can be versatile, using it either way. They also Default to each other at -4, so the lesser one becomes effectively cheaper if you're really good with the greater (but only once you've sunk 12 points into it).
Or there's Weapon Adaptation (again, from Martial Arts), a Perk that lets you use a weapon with another related melee Skill ("related" here meaning that they have a -4 or better Default from each other), so you could, for instance, use it single-handed with Two-Handed Sword Skill, or vice-versa.
But really, the main advantage of a bastard sword (which is what a katana is, really) is that versatility. It's good to be able to wield it as a big two-hander, but also good to be able to free up your other hand, or if one of your hands gets injured.

[Unwitting Pawn]

It's out of playtest and into editing. Last I heard, editing was about a third done.

Thanks for clarifying that - this is good news :smallbiggrin:


The current editior and writer of GURPS, the "head guy" over there, as well as his main assistant, are both active members of their forums. Compare this to the nonsense that WotC has been pulling lately, and its just unreal.

Heh, with the SJGames forum being the first I ever signed up to (and not having played D&D since before the Internet was everywhere), I didn't know how special that was at first :smallwink:

[fusilier]

This has probably been mentioned, but one of the reasons I like GURPS, is that I can usually design weird characters and not be totally ineffectual in the campaign. In D&D, ideas for characters with (partially) mundane backgrounds are hard to work in, without hamstringing the character, or there just being no mechanism whatsoever to handle such skills. So my itinerant cobbler, or medieval banker were never too much fun in D&D. Also this depends upon the DM not wanting/caring to figure out how to support such ideas (everywhere my cobbler went everybody's shoes were in immaculate condition!). However, part of his reluctance was probably down to there being no rules to handle things like on-the-side shoe repair.

In GURPS such mundane skills seem to become much more useful, even if not required. So the characters can have a lot more depth, which isn't simply fluff.

[Unwitting Pawn]

In GURPS such mundane skills seem to become much more useful, even if not required. So the characters can have a lot more depth, which isn't simply fluff.

Agreed. The GURPS skill system can seem daunting at first, with its relative complexity and the number of skills to choose from. However, now that I'm used to it, I really like the fact that there are so many skills (mundane and otherwise). The overlap between skills, as well as the way defaulting works, means that it's possible to achieve a task in different ways, using different skills. Also, the variety makes it easier to have two characters of similar (or even different) role/function that aren't mechanically similar in their skill lists.

[Phunbaba]

Could I make a character who can go toe to toe with anything fighting unarmed, wear a full suit of chain mail with plate additions, plus plate Gauntlets & boots, carries a great sword (like Iron Sword Style from Soul Calibur III), and can breath fire, throw Lightening bolts, go invisible, Fly, breathe underwater, and when needed transform into a huge equivalent Dragon?

Not all that pretty being the bare bones of what you asked for but it'll do. And with some polish it might start to look like a real character vs a boss fight.


Name Dragon Lady SM 0/8 Point Total lots
TL 3(medieval) Points Spent lots
Languages Spoken Written Culture Pts
Common Native Native y 0

Encumbrance Move Dodge
St 30 HP 30 None 180 8 12
Dx 20 Will 15 Light 360 6 11
IQ 15 Per 15 Med 540 4 10
Ht 15 FP 15 Heavy 1080 3 9
Damage sw 5d+2 th 3d X-Heavy 1800 1(.6) 8
Speed 8.75


Skills Dif Lvl Pts Note all these skill are efectively 1 less then stated
Judo dh 22 12
Karate dh 22 12
Broad Sword da 22 24
Innate attack de
breath 22 4
beam 22 4

Advantages/Perks
Alt Form (Dragon) Lots
Breaths Water 10 Note: Found under Doesn't Breath (Gills) in advantages.
Combat reflexes 15
Flight 40 Ala superman Note: flight speed = to basic move *2 as a base so 16 here
Innate Attacks
Fire Breath 15 3d burning +0% Jet (+40% cone while in alt form only)
lightning bult 18 3d burning +20% surge (disables electrical equipment)

Invisibiltiy 44 +10% can become visible at will Note: covers only visible light spectrume or spectrume of choice +20% per additional spectrum of light you wish to be invisible to. Could also choose things like invisibility to radar or sonar


Disadvantages/Quirks


Weapons Damge Reach Parry Cost Wt Notes
Great Sword sw+3 cut 1,2 17 800 12 Not oversized but can still weild one handed like a broadsword
or thr+2imp 2
Punch thr+2 cr c 15 - - -

Ranged Weapon Damage Acc Range RoF Shots Bulk Rcl Cost Wt notes
fire breath 3d br 0 5/10 1 - 2 1 - - no range penalty to hit
lightningBolt 3d br 3 10/100 1 - 2 1 - - full/halved damage ranges

Armor locations DR notes
Mail Shirt torso 4/2* flexible armor, use the lower DR against crushing attacks
Steel Corslet(Plate) torso 6 Note: Wearing an extra layer ofa rmor anywhere but on the head gives -1 to DX and DX-based skills

Mail Legging legs 4/2* flexible armor, use the lower DR against crushing attacks
Mail Sleeves arms 4/2* flexible armor, use the lower DR against crushing attacks
Gauntlets hands 4
Sollerets (Plate boots) feet 4 Closer I could figure out for grieves, if you don't like it change it.

Dragon Template
Encumbrance Move Dodge
St 400 HP 400 None 32000 8 12
Dx 20 Will 15 Light 64000 6 11
IQ 15 Per 15 Med 102000 4 10
Ht 15 FP 15 Heavy 204000 3 9
Damage sw 41d th 43d X-Heavy 320000 1(.6) 8
Speed 8.75

Advantages/Perks
DR 250 50 points of Damage Resistance.
Innate Attacks
Fire Breath 353 47d burning +50% cone(1)
lightning bult 282 47d burning +20% surge (disables electrical equipment)
Note advantages and abilities and such from human form carry over to alt form so can still fly ala superman and breath water and such so does 50d

[Ermanti]

@billyjimbob

I think the problem with said mage was the GM not understanding how the reduced fatigue cost on spells works, also how was he maintaining that many spells? The rules for maintaining spells states that you get a cumulative -1 per spell maintained. So maintaining more than 10 spells just isn't feasible, even with a base 21 skill (necessary for -2 fatigue, and 1/2 casting time) and even that is a crap shoot, since you also get a -1 for casting a failed spell more than once per minute; and there's the still the fatigue cost for all those spells to consider. Unless he was using Enscorcel, which any GM I have ever had bans the crap out of that spell, and it's still expensive to set up.

Shape stone is an area spell, with a base cost of 4 to cast/2 to maintain, with a one minute duration, so he could maintain 1 hex indefinitely IF he had a 20+ skill. The cost reduction for an area spell happens after you find the total cost for the area, so if I wanted to shape 10 hexes worth of stone, I would have to pay 40 fatigue (quite a bit for those 3rd edition days)-2 fatigue from skill for a 20 skill=38 fatigue

So unless you guys were using some sort of variant fatigue rules, or the GM let him have a 100 point powerstone with no serious quirks, or the campaign had some arbitrarily large starting point value, I just don't see how this mage could of pulled off the tricks you are describing.

[Bucky]

So unless you guys were using some sort of variant fatigue rules, or the GM let him have a 100 point powerstone with no serious quirks, or the campaign had some arbitrarily large starting point value, I just don't see how this mage could of pulled off the tricks you are describing.

If the GM lets you get away with a sufficient amount of cheese, you can pull this off with a 150-point character without even over-specializing.

[Ermanti]

And what kind of cheese would that be? I know this system pretty thoroughly, and without vast wealth to buy a relatively clean, arbitrarily large powerstone, or some sort of variant fatigue rules (my GM used 5 cp for 10% of current fatigue, making it calculate like compound interest); it's nigh impossible to get more than 35 fatigue or so together. 20-25 points of that will be a powerstone, which recharges 1 fp/day, if you only have one, longer if you have more than one.

4 ed. may be different, haven't really looked into it due to the lack of a vehicles book (I like to make my own guns/siege equipment). I'm relatively sure, though, that the type of spellcasting BillyJimBoBob is describing was either an exaggeration or the result of the GM not understanding how reduced fatigue due to high skill works.

I've made many mages for gurps 3 ed. and I can tell you that the only way it gets out of hand is when you allow players to get away with having a few very powerful spells such as time out, great shapeshifting @ a 30+skill, accelerate time, and ensorcel; or letting them have access to ALOT of personal fatigue/very high mana. Otherwise they're going to cast maybe 10 spells a day, maybe more if they have a really high base skill.

Certainly not "Effortlessly (and I mean effortlessly, it cost little or no fatigue and could be maintained indefinitely while the character was awake) stone shaping, able to carve stairs for the party into solid rock, close off rooms for us to rest and recover in, and separate groups of monsters from one another so that we could destroy them piecemeal. Magic-proof, and with several buffs spells permanently up which made physical damage almost impossible."

[Saph]

http://www.novarata.net/Thread_Necromancy.jpg

[Kiren]

Is their anything in the way of mundane healing, like making a combat medic for a modern campaign.

Edit: It does appear the thread was brought back from the dead, we appear to have a necromancer among ourselves.

[Bucky]

And what kind of cheese would that be? I know this system pretty thoroughly, and without vast wealth to buy a relatively clean, arbitrarily large powerstone, or some sort of variant fatigue rules (my GM used 5 cp for 10% of current fatigue, making it calculate like compound interest); it's nigh impossible to get more than 35 fatigue or so together. 20-25 points of that will be a powerstone, which recharges 1 fp/day, if you only have one, longer if you have more than one.


Filthy Rich (50 points)
Multimillionare 3 (75 points)
Magery 1 (15 points)
Powered (20) staff of Shape Stone and other spells (<$50 million)
An assortment of always-on buff items (<$50 million)

Also, at that cash level you can afford to throw around Lesser Wishes (~$5k each) in combat, blow Great Wishes ($50k by book but usually higher by GM fiat) on major plot obstacles and generally get away with stuff that would normally require a few hundred extra character points.

In a 100-point campaign with a 40-point disadvantage limit.

[Phunbaba]

Is their anything in the way of mundane healing, like making a combat medic for a modern campaign.Indeed there is, and appropriatly enough it's a skill called first aid. Depending on how advanced your game world is your heal some amount of HP after spending a few minutes on your minstrations, which could include emergency surgery. Though you'd want the surgery skill for that, as well as a portable surgery kit instead of your standard first aid one. My brother has played just such a charecter, though we were playing in a HALO game as ODST.
They also have rules for long term care. Although admitedly without magical healing or just raising how quickly everyone in the game heals via house rule it can take a very long time for people to heal fully if they were brought to near death.


Edit: It does appear the thread was brought back from the dead, we appear to have a necromancer among ourselves. That would be me. :smalleek: But I'm not evil... just misguided, honest.
In my defense I couldn't help myself after coming across this thread as I was searching for something completly different using google. but seeing that person wanting a charecter modeled I went ahead and built an' posted it.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: Thread Necromancy is uncool.