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Atelm
2009-08-29, 12:28 PM
My players may now go look at something else...

For an upcoming campaign I've come up the following two concepts for BBEG, both of which I'm going to use. However I'm absolutely hopeless when it comes to actually making something menacing mechanically speaking, and that is where I turn to the wonderful folks here in the playground.

Concept #1: The Crimson Witch (Drow, Female, Wizard Specialist X/Fatespinner 5/Red Wizard 10)

Where X is the amount of base class levels she'll have, Red Wizard has been refluffed to be a Drow organization instead of a Human one in my campaign world.

Now for the questions.

1) How many base class levels would she need to be a difficult boss challenge for 4 17-20th level character party? She is to be epic level, that much is certain to me.

2) Is the Fatespinner PrC worth it? Or could there be something else that would benefit her more in a direct confrontation with the PCs? I'm pretty much already set on the Red Wizard.

3) What would be the best wizard school to specialise in? And what schools to ban? I'm thinking enchantment would most fit her style as my image of her is that of a manipulative b@#%& who gets others to do her dirty work willingly or unwillingly. (Also, whenever she chooses to show herself she does so riding a dominated Thunderbird)

4) What items should she absolutely possess?

5) Feat selection?

6) How should her personal meatshield/bodyguard be built? Again my thought was on a Drow Thayan Knight, but I've no idea if that is worth anything or of a suitable base class. Basically a speedbump who protects her, whether she needs it or not is irrelevent.

Keeping in mind that she will have several lesser Red Wizards from which she gains the benefits of leading their circle.

Concept #2: The Evil Chancellor (Human, male, Aristocrat X/Spymaster 5/?)

Unlike #1 who is supposed to be the more prominent BBEG of the campaign and be the one who is fought at the end, this one is to be someone the PCs won't possibly even recognize as an enemy; a subversive force who slowly turns the PCs native kingdom against it's neighbouring monstrous humanoid tribes. He will have no spellcasting of his own.

1) Is aristocrat the best choice for a person specialised in manipulation without being a spellcaster? Are there any other PrCs that would benefit him apart from Spymaster? Keeping in mind that his ECL is supposed to be maybe around 15ish.

2) Skill & Feat selection? Hoping to maximise all social skills.

3) Possessions? (Despite not having spellcasting doesn't prevent him from being loaded with magic items)

Books available to me for both of these include (but are not limited to) all of the Completes, Unearthed Arcana, ToB, Spell Compedium and all Core books. The only sources I won't consider straight away are things found in Dragon/Dungeon magazines.

Thanks.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-29, 12:41 PM
Off-the-cuff problems with the Drow?
Enchantment sucks after the PCs get access to Mindblank. Illusion at least would allow her some options to play confusing, as long as the PCs don't have True Seeing yet. Other than that, Conj and Trans are the best specialist schools due to the variety and power of their effects, and Evocation, and Enchantment are the best to ban, though Abjuration is losable if she has another caster to cover it, or necro if it doesn't fit thematically.
Anything with Epic Spellcasting kills anything without Epic Spellcasting. No save, No SR, do not pass Go. You will either be majorly nerfing her abilities(which some players will notice and dislike), or you'll be TPKing the party. 20th level is the highest casting she can have.

Myrmex
2009-08-29, 02:15 PM
Will the payers ever get access to Epic Magic? If not, you can easily give her epic spells without having to accept the premise that she has a sentient planet full of chain-Gating Solars. Giver her Epic Spells that do simple things like make her enchantment spells bypass mindblank or something. Epic Spells don't have to be utterly broken, especially given that you're the DM and it is your responsibility to make fun encounters, not munchkin the snot out of everything you can get your cheesy fingers on.

Even then, epic magic can work so long as you work with the players and set firm limitations on what they can do. For most epic spellcasters, epic spells are necessary to crack epic SR or hit epic touch ACs. It's just that the framework for epic spells also allows for really absurd stuff, but only if you tolerate players chain gating solars. Most of the really "wow" epic spells have significantly hard to hit spellcrafting DCs, which are accessible at low levels if you allow chain gating.

Ignoring epic magic out of hand because of its great potential to be broken is about the same as banning bluff or diplomacy, since they're both very "easy" to break into little pieces. Like most things in D&D, their inclusion comes with an implicit understanding that your players won't abuse the hell out of it.

Evocation also has some really good spells in it, like contingency, gust of wind, and forcecage & forcewall. Blasting is also highly effective, if you take the right feats. Just be warned that it can be too effective, and cheese off the party. Personally, I find that doing HP damage every other round with a mobile, fairly well defended opponent works best. Too much damage, and you wipe the party. Too little damage, and there's no threat. Too much lockdown with battlefield control, and combat slows to a crawl. Too little, and they'll kill the villain too fast. Too many save-or-dies, and you'll easily wipe the party. Too few and there's not enough risk. Blasting with 100 damage spells, save for half, is usually a pretty good use of actions, since it will only take a few turns of that to kill a party, not a single turn or 10 turns.

woodenbandman
2009-08-29, 03:36 PM
^+1 to epic magic not being super cheesy if you prevent it from being that. I don't know anyone who would allow a spell that has a save DC of 400 and bypasses all immunities, or that makes you immune to everything.

Myrmex
2009-08-29, 03:48 PM
^+1 to epic magic not being super cheesy if you prevent it from being that. I don't know anyone who would allow a spell that has a save DC of 400 and bypasses all immunities, or that makes you immune to everything.

The argument for that is: if the rules allow it, then it exists, and if it exists, your int 30 wizard would have heard of it, and he is smart enough to know that it is good, so he will use it.

Which is all implicit on the understanding that all characters will move towards an optimization maximum to the best of their abilities.

Personally, I disagree with this form of playing. The existence of a rule does not necessitate the inclusion of the rule to the extent that it makes the game less fun, or other parts of the game useless.

Rhiannon87
2009-08-29, 04:48 PM
Concept #2: The Evil Chancellor (Human, male, Aristocrat X/Spymaster 5/?)

Unlike #1 who is supposed to be the more prominent BBEG of the campaign and be the one who is fought at the end, this one is to be someone the PCs won't possibly even recognize as an enemy; a subversive force who slowly turns the PCs native kingdom against it's neighbouring monstrous humanoid tribes. He will have no spellcasting of his own.

1) Is aristocrat the best choice for a person specialised in manipulation without being a spellcaster? Are there any other PrCs that would benefit him apart from Spymaster? Keeping in mind that his ECL is supposed to be maybe around 15ish.

2) Skill & Feat selection? Hoping to maximise all social skills.

3) Possessions? (Despite not having spellcasting doesn't prevent him from being loaded with magic items)

Books available to me for both of these include (but are not limited to) all of the Completes, Unearthed Arcana, ToB, Spell Compedium and all Core books. The only sources I won't consider straight away are things found in Dragon/Dungeon magazines.

Thanks.

You might be better off going straight rogue, rather than expert, for the base classes. Same number of skill points a level, but you have more options for skills. As for PrCs, it depends on what you want to do. The Spymaster's gimmick is basically getting a small bonus to bluff and disguise under certain circumstances, being able to get into disguises quickly, and detecting and dispelling scrying. If you're going to go into it, take all 7 levels-- the capstone is useful if you're expecting him to be spied on.

All that being said, as someone who is playing a Spymaster, it really is a disappointing class. The detect scrying thing has come in handy for the party, but I really wish I had taken another PrC: Mountebank, from Complete Scoundrel. Much better bonuses to bluff, alter egos, the ability to jump around as a free action... This is way better for someone who's going to be manipulative and sneaking around, rather than someone who'd be the target of such things. You do take a hit to skill points, but if you're playing a human with a good INT and good CHA (both musts for the character you're describing), it shouldn't be too bad.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-08-29, 04:52 PM
Factotum, from Dungeonscape, is strictly better than aristocrat/expert (well, maybe not when it comes to saves). If it's allowed, that would be a great thing to throw onto the BBEG. And you are the DM, so it's in your hands whether or not to allow this relatively obscure sourcebook.

Boci
2009-08-29, 05:05 PM
For the drow wizard, you might want to use the lesser drow (you can see it on crystalkeep) to avoid the CR bump. Then you could go Enchanter 3 / master specialist 10 / Red wizard 10 and give her an epic spell to pierce charm immunity.
Her protector could be a crusador using iron guard glare.

As for the manipulator you could use a factotum or bard, altyhough you would need to hourse rule a replacement for their spell casting.

Charlie Kemek
2009-08-29, 05:34 PM
for the manipulator, DON'T BE AN ARISTOCRAT/SPYMASTER!!!!! I am sorry, but those classes don't make for a powerful enough BBEG. for that, I suggest begulier (PHBII), telepath/thrallherd, enchanter, bard, rouge, factorum (dungenscape, don't remember how to spell it) anything but that.

AslanCross
2009-08-29, 06:14 PM
for the manipulator, DON'T BE AN ARISTOCRAT/SPYMASTER!!!!! I am sorry, but those classes don't make for a powerful enough BBEG. for that, I suggest begulier (PHBII), telepath/thrallherd, enchanter, bard, rouge, factorum (dungenscape, don't remember how to spell it) anything but that.

Amen. I beguiler would do really well here. I did that for my MBEG once. I wasn't too familiar with the class yet then and he lacked subtlety, but he was able to get a lot done without soiling his hands.