Increasing Critical Threat range (D&D 3.5)

[Kallisti]

I'm considering a build for the Gestalt Warrior Arena, and I want some help from the local optimizers. How can I get the widest possible crit range? I'm currently thinking Scimitars with either Keen or the Improved Crit feat, but that only nets me a 15-20, so I need effects that will stack. All official WotC material, including Dragon, is allowed, but if I take levels in any spellcasting classes, I lose the spellcasting. Ideas?

[Boci]

Desciple of Despator from BoVD? OA Kensai?

[Kallisti]

That could work. I want to save PrC levels, so I'm not too sure about Kensai (IIRC it gets the improved threat range relatively late) but Disciple of Dispator could work.

[Foryn Gilnith]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a offers a barbarian alternate class feature that, at 7th level, improves critical threat range by 1 on every charge or Sudden Strike-eligible attack.

[Korivan]

If you can take from outside sources you can also grab lamanated and serrated steel qualities onto you weapons. It nets you a +1 damage, +5 hardness, +1 multiplier, +1 threat range. Never Winter Nights also had the Weapon Master. With it you could improve your treat range by two, so many times per day you can increase the multiplier by 1.

For gestalt, Duskblade works nice, as you can grab bloodstone for an empowered vampiric touch, channel shocking grasp, have a wizard put something onto your weapon with spell storing, tack on a few fighter levels until you qualify for WM, grab those things mentioned above. With a scyth, you can net a 15-20, or more with excecutioners eyes +4 range, total of 11-20, 2d4+alot, x6, add in all the extras from the spells, you should kill about anything you land a hit on.

[Kallisti]

If you can take from outside sources you can also grab lamanated and serrated steel qualities onto you weapons. It nets you a +1 damage, +5 hardness, +1 multiplier, +1 threat range. Never Winter Nights also had the Weapon Master. With it you could improve your treat range by two, so many times per day you can increase the multiplier by 1.

For gestalt, Duskblade works nice, as you can grab bloodstone for an empowered vampiric touch, channel shocking grasp, have a wizard put something onto your weapon with spell storing, tack on a few fighter levels until you qualify for WM, grab those things mentioned above. With a scyth, you can net a 15-20, or more with excecutioners eyes +4 range, total of 11-20, 2d4+alot, x6, add in all the extras from the spells, you should kill about anything you land a hit on.

The 'dropping things just about automatically' is part of my Evil Plan (Tm), but I get no spellcasting even if I go into casting class like Duskblade becasue it's the Gestalt Warrior arena. Where are the rules for lamanated/serrated steel? Can you post the prices/benefits/rules here?

[infinitypanda]

You also might want to look into Kaorti weapons. They're pretty expensive, but make your crit multiplier x4.

[Kallisti]

That's Fiend Folio, right? Thanks.


Anyone know where to find the weapon qualities that Korivan mentioned, or Executioner's Eyes? The spell's not on Crystal Keep...

[lsfreak]

1 - +1 keen aptitude scimitars (treats them as maces) made of Kaorti Resin (makes crit x4)
2 - Combat Reflexes, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (light mace), Lighting Mace feats
4 - 4 levels in Disciple of Dispater

You should end up with a crit range of 12-20/x4, and each threat - whether or not it crits or even hits - triggers another attack (or go 8 level in DoD for a 9-20 range). Add on something either crit-related or that really hurts with a lot of attacks, like Enervating (negative level on crit) or Wounding (1Con dmg every hit). Dip a level in warblade or swordsage for Blood in the Water stance, and of course make sure you get pounce somehow.

EDIT: I fail at details. I think everything's right now.

[Kallisti]

1 - +1 keen aptitude scimitars (treats them as maces) made of Kaorti Resin (makes crit x4)
2 - Combat Reflexes, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (light mace), Lighting Mace feats
4 - 4 levels in Disciple of Dispater

You should end up with a crit range of 12-20/x4, and each threat - whether or not it crits or even hits - triggers another attack (or go 8 level in DoD for a 9-20 range). Add on something either crit-related or that really hurts with a lot of attacks, like Enervating (negative level on crit) or Wounding (2Con dmg every hit). Drip a level in warblade or swordsage for Blood in the Water stance, and of course make sure you get pounce somehow.
Aptitude/lightning mace? You just guessed my evil plan...

But eight levels of Disciple of Dispater triples threat range, which stacks with Improved Crit but not keen, so I could get...what...8 to twenty/x4 with lightning 'maces'? Bwahahahaha!

How much does kaorti resin cost, though?

I can get pounce via some Barbarian substitution levels I need to track down...

[Foryn Gilnith]

Complete Champion Lion Totem loses fast movement for pounce. And then it can go into the 7th-level substitution on the wizards site.

[Mongoose87]

I can get pounce via some Barbarian substitution levels I need to track down...

I think it's in Complete Champion.

EDIT: Confirm.

[lsfreak]

18-20 (3 numbers) - base
15-20 (6 numbers) - keen
12-20 (9 numbers) - DoD4
9-20 (12 numbers) - DoD8

Price is somewhere in here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031014a

[Kallisti]

Thanks, everybody. I think I'm about ready to go kill some people, although if anyone knows about the things Korivan suggested (laminated/serrated steel, Executioner's Eyes) that could be a big help.

[Korivan]

Ah sorry, must have missed that part about the lack of casting. Pitty too. But at any rate, these two qualities are part of how the weapon is forged, so you should be all good there.

Laminated and Serrated from
AEG-Source-Mercenaries.

Laminated Steel-Gains +1 damage to all its rolls and its critical hit multiplier goes up by one as well. Furthermore, the weapon gains +5 to its normal hardness. Costst 900 and the DC to create is 23.

Serrated Weapons-Has its critical threat range increased by +1.
Costs 300 and DC is 20.

In both cases its a type of crafting, can be applied to any metal. And you can make in masterwork at the same time for another 300.

You said no spellcasting but what about magic weapons? The MIC and DMG have alot of nice things.
Spell Storing is still nice. Only works once, but if you go for one-hit one-kill no prob.
As is bloodstone and high level Vampiric Touch.
Thundering is great too as its one of the few ways a noncaster can grab sonic damage. Gets better the higher your multiplier

I'm not familier with the gestalt warrior arean. Can you tell me where to find it?

[Kallisti]

Gestalt Warrior Arena Here! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121363)

Basically it's a roleplaying-optional kill fest, sans spellcasters. ToB allowed, but no ToM, MoI, psionics, casting (bardic music, yes, bardic casting, no) with some other houserules. I saw it recently and decided to build a Lightning Mace/Aptitude Scimitar blender, and needed some help getting a high enough crit range to cause any real pain.

[Korivan]

Thanks. Didnt see you had asked about the Excecutioners Eyes.
Have you ever played IceWind Dale 2? It was a 9th level wizard spell that gave everyone in your party in a certain radius a +4 to attack and +4 threat range for weapons. I had a DM that house ruled a lower level version of this that affected only one person. We made it work 3/day on a helmet. It really helped out with my Scyth.

[Samb]

No one mentioned psychic weapon master? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d)

Its a great PrC already with the ability to increase the multiplier on crits as you progress, and at level 7 you gain +2 on your weapon's threat range (if you have improved crit already). So if you gestalt with DoD you're looking at 7-20 range AND you can increase your multipiler 5/day.

Main problem is the crazy feat requirements for the PrC, but for gestalt getting the feats should be easy.

Falchion with 7-20/x3 should just about kill everything.

[Kallisti]

Thanks. Didnt see you had asked about the Excecutioners Eyes.
Have you ever played IceWind Dale 2? It was a 9th level wizard spell that gave everyone in your party in a certain radius a +4 to attack and +4 threat range for weapons. I had a DM that house ruled a lower level version of this that affected only one person. We made it work 3/day on a helmet. It really helped out with my Scyth.

I love Icewind Dale and Icewind Dale II, and have played them more than is healthy, but I doubt Executioner's Eyes would get houseruled in. Now, if it's in an offical source, that's different.

On an unrelated note, does anyone know about an item called Slippers of Battledancing? I've hear several people mention it, but I don't know what it does.

[Kallisti]

No one mentioned psychic weapon master? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d)

Its a great PrC already with the ability to increase the multiplier on crits as you progress, and at level 7 you gain +2 on your weapon's threat range (if you have improved crit already). So if you gestalt with DoD you're looking at 7-20 range AND you can increase your multipiler 5/day.

Main problem is the crazy feat requirements for the PrC, but for gestalt getting the feats should be easy.

I can't take it, because there's no psionics except Soulknife and Wild Talent and it requires third-level powers. Besides, you can't take a prestige class on each Gestalt track at the same level, or I'd take some OA Kensai. Instead, I'm stuck with fighter/warblade. This character with Avalanche of Blades will be painful for people he doesn't like:smallamused:

[Korivan]

If you like PWM put psionics is out, just take weapon master, its the same thing, but less requirements to get in.

[Kallisti]

If you like PWM put psionics is out, just take weapon master, its the same thing, but less requirements to get in.

Yeah, I know, but you can't gestalt PrC's, and frankly Disciple of Dispater is more valuable and cooler. If I could take both I would, though.

[Samb]

Of course there is regular weapon master..... But psychic WM is just better! Hold two foci for extra cheese, expand x2 with powerful build, expand focus for automatic crit confirmation.

Everything is better with psionics.

[woodenbandman]

woe betide you if someone is running an undead, or, you know, wears fortification armor.

[Kallisti]

Except that with Lightning Mace, only rolling high enough to threaten a crit matters, not whether I confirm the crit or even whether I hit.

[Ernir]

My only warning: be prepared to be stuck for a long, long time, rolling dice.


woe betide you if someone is running an undead, or, you know, wears fortification armor.

Humm, that's right, you should have Truedeath crystals on these by default. Not getting extra damage from the crits cramps your style, especially if it is x4 or x5.
If you are sure there are no undead around, you can always just pop on the energy damage crystals anyway.

[Darrin]

On an unrelated note, does anyone know about an item called Slippers of Battledancing? I've hear several people mention it, but I don't know what it does.

DMGII p. 272. Bonuses to speed, tumbling, and initiative, but the reason it gets mentioned is if you move at least 10' as part of a move action, you can use your Charisma bonus instead of Strength or Dexterity for attack and damage.

(Does it really have to be a move action? That stinks... unless you have access to psionic Hustle, you can't full-attack, is that right?)

[oxinabox]

insane crit's an't too effective unfortuantly.

When playing 3.0 rules for stacking keen with Improved critical:
I was a warblade;
+7 to confirm crits (Warblade add int to confirm power, power critical feat (+4 to conmfirm)): So When I crit'ed It almost always confirmed
Fullbalde crit range17 -20 (next lvl 15-20)
Elven Courtblade crit range 14-20 (next lvl 11-20)

So I roll, I crit, i confirm.
Me: Roll, "Yes I crit!", I roll to confirm, "You better believe that confirms!"
DM: What was your orignal total attack roll?
Me: "me? I rolled 17 so 29. and to confirm 34."
DM: "Your orignal attack missed."
...
Two of the guys had Some sort of Massive defection spell (canm't recall the name)
Both had me gappled.
I break both grapples, then next round attack oine of them:
Natural 20, to cofirm 36.
roll damage. (2d8+5)x2+5d6+1d4
take out calulator, adds it up: "eh, 50, i rolled bad"
DM: rolls save vs massive damage, surpised to find out i one shot one of the toughest guygs in the room.

that session the dice loved me I critted 4 or 5 tims in one combat.
But only 2 of them hit, as in above.

Mass critting doesn't work, but is Awesome fun

[lsfreak]

Fortunately, in this situation a single massive crit doesn't matter when every threat triggers another attack that can threaten and trigger another attack, which can threaten and trigger another attack. The pure number of attacks you can pump out is crazy (with very rough napkin maths, you get ~18 attack rolls a round, which of course with even slightly higher-than-average rolls jumps up significantly).

[Keld Denar]

If anyone has MatLab, they can run this code which does a pretty good aproximation of how much damage you'd get from the whole Lightning Maces + Aptitude + Snapkick model. Sorry, I don't know how to program in any USEFUL languages, just computational ones...



[totdmg,totswing]=function(numatt,avgdmg)
p=0;
while numatt > 0;
numatt = numatt - 1; % reduces # of attacks each iteration
p = p + 1;
roll = 1+floor(rand*20);
if roll > 8;
roll = 1+floor(rand*20);
if roll > 1;
swing(p) = 2; % Change 2 to 3 or 4 if using higher crit multipliers
numatt = numatt + 2; % Generate 2 attacks per crit
else
swing(p) = 1; % Noncrit
end
else
roll = 1+floor(rand*20);
if roll > 1;
swing(p) = 1;
else
swing(p) = 0;
end
end

% This creates an array of 0s, 1s, and 2s, which corresponds to misses, hits, and crits respectively.

totswing = length(swing);
% The length of the variable swing gives the total number of attack rolls made
% as the counter p increases at every iteration.

totdmg = sum(swing) * avgdmg;
% Summing swing will give us the total number of effective hits
% Hits count a 1 effective hit, crits count as 2 effective hits
% Multiplying avgdmg by the sum of hits will give total damage for the run

[Baron Malkar]

...made of Kaorti Resin...
...4 levels in Disciple of Dispater...
Have you actually read DoD,:smallconfused: it only works with Iron or Steel weapons.

[oxinabox]

[QUOTE=Keld Denar;6825921]If anyone has MatLab, they can run this code which does a pretty good aproximation of how much damage you'd get from the whole Lightning Maces + Aptitude + Snapkick model. Sorry, I don't know how to program in any USEFUL languages, just computational ones...

/[QUOTE]
Sweet, I have ascess to MatLab, now to SSH into uni and operate it via command line...
eh, i'll just do it in person tomorrow.

[Cieyrin]

...MatLab...

Gah, I thought I escaped MatLab when I graduated college. Noo! Stay back, vile beast!! @_@

[Ernir]

If anyone has MatLab, they can run this code which does a pretty good aproximation of how much damage you'd get from the whole Lightning Maces + Aptitude + Snapkick model. Sorry, I don't know how to program in any USEFUL languages, just computational ones...

Hehe, I wrote a Matlab function too when I was toying with my DoD build.

With actual light maces, the damage at level 10 (rolled vs. some "average AC of level 10 monsters" I found on the intarweb) was approximately 180.

With Aptitude Kukris, it fluctuated between 10k and 13k damage per round. :smallredface:


I was planning it as a Gestalt, and it had full Skirmish on the other side, but still. 10k+ was without full crit-range expansion. This gets utterly insane if the DM doesn't rein it in.