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Jack Zander
2009-08-29, 05:51 PM
I've got the approval to play a gestalt necromancer from my DM. He's starting at level 3. I'm thinking cleric/sorcerer to cut down on the MAD (just be charisma focused).

I'm going with the necromancy and evil domains (undead creation at +2 CL).

Is there any advice for making this guy the true Lord of the Dead? The available splatbooks are Ebberron Campaign Setting (or whatever its called). PHB2, PsiHB, OA, Arms and Equipment Guide, Planar Handbook, Manual of the Planes, and anything on the SRD.

Nothing is set for this build, so feel free to suggest a class/race/domain/etc. Just keep it within the books we have available, please. I'd like to make him Lawful Neutral, but the Evil Domain is too good for me to pass up.

EDIT: Also, am I correct in assuming that the HD worth of undead I control for spells such as Animate Dead works separately for both sides of my gestalt?

Jack Zander
2009-08-29, 06:21 PM
Huh. I was looking at some prestige classes and I came across the Hierophant. Usually this looks pretty bad, because you stop gaining spells, and just gain CL. However, in gestalt, would I be able to qualify for Hierophant with my cleric levels, and then take it on my sorcerer side? This would give me basically 3 CL on the cleric side each level if I took Spell Power each level. Is this kind of cheese allowed?

Random NPC
2009-08-29, 06:28 PM
I've got the approval to play a gestalt necromancer from my DM. He's starting at level 3. I'm thinking cleric/sorcerer to cut down on the MAD (just be charisma focused).

I'm going with the necromancy and evil domains (undead creation at +2 CL).

Is there any advice for making this guy the true Lord of the Dead? The available splatbooks are Ebberron Campaign Setting (or whatever its called). PHB2, PsiHB, OA, Arms and Equipment Guide, Planar Handbook, Manual of the Planes, and anything on the SRD.

Nothing is set for this build, so feel free to suggest a class/race/domain/etc. Just keep it within the books we have available, please. I'd like to make him Lawful Neutral, but the Evil Domain is too good for me to pass up.

EDIT: Also, am I correct in assuming that the HD worth of undead I control for spells such as Animate Dead works separately for both sides of my gestalt?Horrible book selection.

Don't take the Necromancy Domain. It sucks. Take UNDEATH instead (page 106 here (http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Spells-ClericalDomains.pdf)), all the spells are in the PHB. If your DM can get a way to introduce Heroes of Horror, Libris Mortis or the Completes to the selection, you might be able to be a little better. There's ways to get the books, and even some places online with the fun classes and feats.

Lawful Evil doesn't have to be unworkable for a party.

As for a build, well, you can start by checking this handook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872726/Revised_Necromancer_Handbook?num=10&pg=1)

Jack Zander
2009-08-29, 06:53 PM
Horrible book selection.

Don't take the Necromancy Domain. It sucks. Take UNDEATH instead (page 106 here (http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Spells-ClericalDomains.pdf)), all the spells are in the PHB. If your DM can get a way to introduce Heroes of Horror, Libris Mortis or the Completes to the selection, you might be able to be a little better. There's ways to get the books, and even some places online with the fun classes and feats.

Lawful Evil doesn't have to be unworkable for a party.

As for a build, well, you can start by checking this handook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872726/Revised_Necromancer_Handbook?num=10&pg=1)

Why exactly does it suck? Can't I take Improved Turning as one of my feats and still have the +1 CL from Necromancy Domain? As far as spell lists go, I'll have plenty of spells to choose from. I'm not worried about how good my domain spells are.

I want to be Lawful Neutral for role playing reasons, but I can fit his alignment to Evil if I have too. It has nothing to do with the party. They couldn't stop my undead army if they tried :smallwink:

That link was useful, Thanks!

I talked to my DM again and he's allowing me to go with the Cloistered Cleric. Score!

Myrmex
2009-08-29, 07:34 PM
Those books are rough for making a necromancer. Have you given any thought to psionics? A psychic warrior//cleric has a great deal of combat prowess, casts from one stat, and can wear armor. A wizard//psion can get a lot of actions using quicken spell, schism, and imbue with spell-like ability. Psionics, admittedly, has little to do with necromancy.

Personally, I'd go wizard//cloistered cleric so I wouldn't have to agonize over sorcerer spells, but that's just me.

Jack Zander
2009-08-29, 07:58 PM
Those books are rough for making a necromancer. Have you given any thought to psionics? A psychic warrior//cleric has a great deal of combat prowess, casts from one stat, and can wear armor. A wizard//psion can get a lot of actions using quicken spell, schism, and imbue with spell-like ability. Psionics, admittedly, has little to do with necromancy.

Personally, I'd go wizard//cloistered cleric so I wouldn't have to agonize over sorcerer spells, but that's just me.

I wouldn't mind going with psionics, but I'm unfamiliar with them, and I definitely don't want to do any fighting myself. I'm planning on using Con as my dump stat (after Str) to portray my character as a frail guy who is pretty close to the death that he works with. My fighting will be done with my minions, and my sorcerer spells will typically debuff from a range.

You really think it would be easier to have to deal with a spellbook, and require Int, Wis, and Cha as primary stats? I think I'll stick with a sorcerer for making things a little easier. I may have some tough choices on spells known, but that's a touch choice I only have to make once. Wizards make that tough choice every day. I won't completely rule out wizard if there is something really awesome I can do with them that I can't do with sorcerers though.

Is there a feat that grants you an undead familiar?

shadow_archmagi
2009-08-29, 07:59 PM
Cleric is WIS based, I thought? So you'd be MAD anyway?

Foryn Gilnith
2009-08-29, 08:03 PM
Feats can grant undead familiars, and nifty things like that. They're all in Libris Mortis: The Book of Undead and Semi-Latin.

kamikasei
2009-08-29, 08:20 PM
Cleric is WIS based, I thought? So you'd be MAD anyway?

I'm assuming the intent is to use clerical casting only for the animates and the like, and then make the most out of rebuke/command running off Cha. If he's not using clerical spells against enemies, then all a minimal Wis costs him are bonus slots.

Jack Zander
2009-08-29, 08:22 PM
Cleric is WIS based, I thought? So you'd be MAD anyway?

If I go Sorcerer/Cleric, I only need two stats: Wis and Cha (and Wis is debatable. I should be fine with a 14 to start plus items). If I go Wizard/Cleric, I need all three.


Feats can grant undead familiars, and nifty things like that. They're all in Libris Mortis: The Book of Undead and Semi-Latin.

I figured as much. From what it looks like though, simply going core cleric makes an awesome necromancer, as their spells plus rebuke pretty much take the cake over everything. I'm sure I could really cheese this out going with all sorts of splatbook options, but that's not exactly what I was aiming for. I'd like a bit of optimization from a "I don't want to be useless" standpoint, but I certainly can do without the Gouda.


I'm assuming the intent is to use clerical casting only for the animates and the like, and then make the most out of rebuke/command running off Cha. If he's not using clerical spells against enemies, then all a minimal Wis costs him are bonus slots.

Bingo.

I guess what I really need is a few nudges in the right direction. Is human the best race, or is there something better? Which familiar fits this theme the best? (I'm thinking raven). Which feats look good for a necromancer but are really traps? (Should I take spell focus: Necromancy?)

Roc Ness
2009-08-29, 08:33 PM
Rather than sorcerer, try Warlock. I think it has an ability where you have the choice of using black onix to create permanent undead, or temporarily create undead for ten minutes per level without the onyx.

Jack Zander
2009-08-29, 08:43 PM
Rather than sorcerer, try Warlock. I think it has an ability where you have the choice of using black onix to create permanent undead, or temporarily create undead for ten minutes per level without the onyx.

I've seen that warlocks have that ability. I'm not sure if that's exactly how I want to raise my undead though. I suppose it could be useful for creating undead mid-fight, but my plan was generally to create undead out of combat with the cleric, and buff/debuff with the sorcerer. As far as I know (which admittedly isn't a lot), warlocks aren't too good at buffs/debuffs. They are better for being an magical archer basically.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-08-29, 08:53 PM
I love necromancers!

First off, see if you can get other books allowed. Heroes of Horror and Libris Mortis are near essentials.

K's Revised Necromancer's Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5584.0) (I had it up in another tab :smallbiggrin:) should get you started on some ideas.

Anyway:

Human is always a great Race, and if you are dumping Con, you can get turned Necropolotin (LM).

Raven is always a good familiar.

Spell focus (necromancy) is...wait for it...not always a great feat. However, if you are mostly casting debuffs in combat, it is great.

Jack Zander
2009-08-29, 08:56 PM
The problem isn't that the books aren't allowed. My DM will pretty much allow anything we can get our hands on. The problem is that no one in my group owns the book.

I'm definitely thinking about getting an undead mount (flying preferred). Should I grab mounted combat, or just make sure I have a few ranks in ride?

Keld Denar
2009-08-29, 09:10 PM
Illumians actually make pretty decent necromancers. The NaenKrau sigil combo gives you a kinda limited Divine Metamagic. Combine this with the Fell Animate feat from Libris Mortis and you can raise undead for free. Toss it on a Death Knell and run around finishing off foes that your party drops.

As far as feats, Corpsecrafter in LM is fairly decent. Some of the feats that add onto Corpsecrafter are ok, and some are bad. Destructive Retribution, of course, is both effective and hilarious in the proper circumstances (Chicken Infested!!!!!!!!!!)

As far as domains, I can't believe noone has mentioned the Deathbound Domain. It gives you a MULTIPLIER for the number of HD you can control. MULTIPLIER!!!! 3 HD/LV instead of 2. Thats a LOT of extra HD at mid-high levels.

As far as undead go, remember that zombies keep whatever movement forms they had. Zombie Wyverns and Dragons and whatnot can fly. Also, Zombie Hydras are pretty much FREAKIN AMAZING since they can attack with ALL heads as a standard action which gets around zombies normal limitation on full attacking.

Another feat you might consider if you are still going with Sorcerer on your other side, is Lord of Uttercold. It makes your cold spells deal 1/2 negative energy damage. Well, Skeletons are IMMUNE to cold damage. That means they heal for half of the damage you deal with your Uttercold spells. Energy Sub: Cold means that all of your damage spells are cold and thus Uttercold. Your skeletal horde looking a little saggy? Drop an Uttercold Fireball on them to simultaneously harm your foes and heal your "friends" and set you up nicely for Destructive Retribution to finish off a decent number of foes. Walls of Fire are also nice to set up, as your undead minions heal twice as much due to Wall of Fires' wording on double damage to undead.

PinkysBrain
2009-08-30, 08:31 AM
I've got the approval to play a gestalt necromancer from my DM. He's starting at level 3. I'm thinking cleric/sorcerer to cut down on the MAD (just be charisma focused).

I'm going with the necromancy and evil domains (undead creation at +2 CL).

Is there any advice for making this guy the true Lord of the Dead? The available splatbooks are Ebberron Campaign Setting (or whatever its called). PHB2, PsiHB, OA, Arms and Equipment Guide, Planar Handbook, Manual of the Planes, and anything on the SRD.
Strange book selection ... but it has the ECS so the choice is clear, Cleric/Artificer ... if for no other reason that you can craft an armor of Undead Controlling sooner (but there are plenty of other reasons). He can also make excellent use of all the metamagic feats (Lord of the Uttercold, Fell Animate etc).

PS. when you say PsiHB do you really mean the PsiHB and not the XPH?

PPS. just buy a second hand Libris Mortis from Amazon and perhaps Complete Arcane ... the 4e weenies are still selling :p

PPPS. Dread Necromancer is fun, but army building might not be appreciated by the DM and other players (way too much time needed to perform your turns). I'd stick to having 2-3 powerful undead at your side.

Jalor
2009-08-30, 08:41 AM
The problem isn't that the books aren't allowed. My DM will pretty much allow anything we can get our hands on. The problem is that no one in my group owns the book.

I'm not exactly sure how to say this, but there are ways to get what you need without owning the book.

Warlock//Sorcerer is pretty good. You can animate undead with the Warlock half and debuff with the Sorcerer half. Even better is Warlock//Dread Necromancer.

Jack Zander
2009-08-30, 10:24 AM
How does Spectral Hand (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spectralHand.htm) work? Does it have a fly speed or something? Does it hover next to you, then travel up to medium range in one turn to deliver a touch spell, then return in the same round? If it has a fly speed, do you need to direct it with an action?


PS. when you say PsiHB do you really mean the PsiHB and not the XPH?

I'm not sure which one it is. I think it's actually the XPH, but I'm not the one who owns it, so I can't really say.


PPS. just buy a second hand Libris Mortis from Amazon and perhaps Complete Arcane ... the 4e weenies are still selling :p

I wouldn't mind buying a new book or two, but my current roommate is moving out, and my next roommate isn't moving back in until the end of next month, so I've got to cover rent on my own for this month.


PPPS. Dread Necromancer is fun, but army building might not be appreciated by the DM and other players (way too much time needed to perform your turns). I'd stick to having 2-3 powerful undead at your side.

So far my plan with this build was to raise 2-3 powerful baddies with my spells (or more if animate dead works for both sides, and not just one), and then use my rebuking to have an army that guards our base of operations, or flying dragon powered airship, etc.

Or I could grab one powerful undead per party member and give them orders to follow [party member's] commands unless they contradict my own. Then we all get an extra bodyguard.

Cieyrin
2009-08-30, 11:52 PM
How does Spectral Hand (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spectralHand.htm) work? Does it have a fly speed or something? Does it hover next to you, then travel up to medium range in one turn to deliver a touch spell, then return in the same round? If it has a fly speed, do you need to direct it with an action?

Think of it as Divine Reach. It just delivers touch attacks for you at range. Long as the target's in range, it basically makes your touch attacks ranged touch attacks (with a +2 bonus, to boot).



So far my plan with this build was to raise 2-3 powerful baddies with my spells (or more if animate dead works for both sides, and not just one), and then use my rebuking to have an army that guards our base of operations, or flying dragon powered airship, etc.

Or I could grab one powerful undead per party member and give them orders to follow [party member's] commands unless they contradict my own. Then we all get an extra bodyguard.

I'd just stick with raising a couple powerful minions and leave it at that, as mini minions aren't generally all that useful in combat and just take up space you don't want to deal with. They'll be at most speed bumps, so might as well make a couple that are actually effective and improve the few rather than spread out across the many. Pisses off the other players less as well, as it doesn't take forever and a day for you to finish your turn, then. I'm also sure that if the other PCs want a cohort, they'll get their own, not have to deal with your provided one, cuz not everybody wants a cohort, as it's more paperwork then some people want to deal with.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

Jack Zander
2009-08-30, 11:59 PM
I'd just stick with raising a couple powerful minions and leave it at that, as mini minions aren't generally all that useful in combat and just take up space you don't want to deal with. They'll be at most speed bumps, so might as well make a couple that are actually effective and improve the few rather than spread out across the many. Pisses off the other players less as well, as it doesn't take forever and a day for you to finish your turn, then. I'm also sure that if the other PCs want a cohort, they'll get their own, not have to deal with your provided one, cuz not everybody wants a cohort, as it's more paperwork then some people want to deal with.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

Uh... did you read my post?

My mini minions would stay back at the base or whatever so they wouldn't bog down combat at all. At most, I'd have one tag along and carry all my stuff.

As far as the cohorts... they wouldn't be cohorts or anything close to it. There's no paperwork involved, except on my end. All I'm doing is letting them control their actions so we all get an extra turn, rather than having me take an extra 3. Of course, if one player didn't want one, I'd control it anyway. That's kind of a no-duh.