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Admiral Squish
2009-08-29, 09:34 PM
Well, I'm told by several folk here that bards = awesome. However, mymind strains to encompass this concept, as bards, in my experience, are significantly less than awesome. My question to you is, how do you get from a clearly un-awesome bard to a definitively awesome bard. What are some powerful/interesting bard builds? What sort of thing makes a bard more awesome than any other class? I admit, I have seen that bards can do some cool things, but it often seems like they're doomed to endlessly be second best to another class, whatever they do.

Keld Denar
2009-08-29, 09:40 PM
Splatbooks. Thats about it. Core only bard is rather meh, and really peters out after the first few levels.

Seriously, add in MIC, SpC, CAdv, CMage, CArc, ToB, Frostburn, Dragon Magic, Eberron Campaign Setting, DMGII and a handful of others I'm undoubtedly forgetting, bards go from zero to hero really fast.

Especially the usual suspects Dragonfire Inspiration and Sublime Chord. Those 2 things alone transform a bard into either a melee monster (with a party of melee monsters) or a late game sorcerer respectively.

Common bard builds include:
Caster:
Bard5/Mindbender1/Bard+2/Virtuoso2/SublimeChord2/Virt+8

Melee:
Bard4/Warblade16
with Dragonfire Inspiration, Song of the White Raven

FMArthur
2009-08-29, 09:41 PM
*casts Glibness*

Relax, there is no secret. Bards are just awful without any hope and you should definitely never play one.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-29, 09:44 PM
Song of the Heart+Song of the White Raven+Spell that ups your Inspire Courage by 1+Words of Creation+Dragonfire Inspiration=Xd6 Sonic damage on each person's attacks for the duration of your Inspire Courage, where X is usually in the 12-15 range.

So everyone gets about 12d6 Sonic damage to every attack they make. If your party is a bunch of Full BAB juggernaughts, and everyone has 6 or more attacks, this gets really powerful and turns you into the MVP.


Alternatively, a single PrC gets you 9th level spells. You then go to town the normal way.

Starbuck_II
2009-08-29, 09:50 PM
Yes, splatbooks have been a stealth balancing for the Bards issue.

You have trouble casting and performing at same time?
Animate instrument: so you maintain instrument musics while doing things like casting
or
that Completer Mage feat melodic casting (letting you cast and still maintain song).

Words of Creation: Exalted Bards can take nonlethal damage to double current Inspire Courage bonus ( other musics as well, but they aren't as useful).

Keld Denar
2009-08-29, 09:54 PM
You ONLY get the sonic damage if you take Draconic Heritage (requires LAME Sorc dip) or are a Half-Dragon (+4 LA wtf?). Otherwise you get fire, and only fire. Other forms of draconic origon (Dragonblooded races in Dragon Magic or the Draconic template or Dragontouched feat) don't change it.

Also, whether or not Words of Creation multiply only your base IC or your bonus IC from other misc effects like Song of the Heart, Insp Boost, or Badge of Valor is relatively debatable, and probably ruled my most sane DMs to not work like that.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-29, 10:03 PM
You ONLY get the sonic damage if you take Draconic Heritage (requires LAME Sorc dip) or are a Half-Dragon (+4 LA wtf?). Otherwise you get fire, and only fire. Other forms of draconic origon (Dragonblooded races in Dragon Magic or the Draconic template or Dragontouched feat) don't change it.

Also, whether or not Words of Creation multiply only your base IC or your bonus IC from other misc effects like Song of the Heart, Insp Boost, or Badge of Valor is relatively debatable, and probably ruled my most sane DMs to not work like that.

Or take Dragontouched+Dragonic Heratige. Dragonfire Bards are a very feat-intensive build, but the payoff is usually very good.

And the whole Words of Creation thing is a house rule. RAW says you double the IC value, it has to specify base for it to only apply to base IC value. Anything else is a house rule and a nerf to a mid-tier class.

Keld Denar
2009-08-29, 11:23 PM
Hmmm, turns out I misremembered the Dragontouched feat saying that you qualify for draconic feats as if you were a sorcerer. My bad. Still VERY feat intensive...Dragontouched, Draconic Heritage, Dragonfire Inspiration, Song of the Heart, Words of Creation, and probably Melodic Casting just so you can still be useful while keeping your song up. Thats 6 of your 7-8 feats. Still, probably worth it.

Still, which version of BoED are you reading? Mine says:


Words of Creation
<snip>
Inspire Courage: Double the morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear and the morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls (+2 at 1st level, +4 at 8th level, +6 at 14th level, +8 at 20th level).
<snip>


Seems pretty clear that it only affects the base IC, as shown in the example. To say otherwise is extrapolating the rules, and as with any extrapolation of the rules, its "ask your DM" teritory.

Signmaker
2009-08-29, 11:29 PM
Bards can be surprisingly effective damage dealers. Dragonfire Inspiration is usually the key, as the posters above have said. The beauty, of course, is that while you can have your own little build that makes use of DI, it's also affecting the rest of your party. Good times are had.

Epinephrine
2009-08-29, 11:42 PM
For what it's worth, you don't need + a billion damage to be amazing as a bard. The bard in the campaign I run has a pretty wimpy (by CharOps standards) +4/+4 Inspire courage (that's after he uses Inspirational Boost), and it is still putting out the majority of the group's damage in many fights*.

The 20% bonus to hit makes many additional attacks connect, or can be converted into bonus damage via power attack (though the 20% bonus to hit delivers more, I suspect). The +4 damage per hit adds up fast with two TWF melee types in the group. Add that to the buffing with Haste, dispelling magic, using his dimension door to bring the melee into range for full attacks, etc? Bards can rock simply by letting other people do what they want to do. He's not remotely cheesey, but manages to pull his weight just fine without ever swinging a weapon or using a damaging spell.

*Consider the melee guys needing 12 to hit with their main attacks, and thus 17 to hit with their first set of iteratives, 22 with their 3rd attack (give them 3/2 attacks).

If they deal an average of say 25 per swing without him, they'd deliver 0.45*25+0.45*25+0.20*25+0.20*25+0.05*25 = 1.35*25 = 33.75 damage per round of full attack.

Adding a +4/+4 song to the mix, they get 0.65*29+0.65*29+0.40*29+0.40*29+0.15*29 = 2.25*29 = 65.25 damage per round of full attack.

So just by singing he's doubled the damage output, and is keeping up with the damage of the two warrior-types, before casting any spells. Tack a haste on? Bards don't need to swing a weapon, they just need other people willing to swing weapons.

Kizara
2009-08-29, 11:42 PM
Really, how many people play games not set in Eberron but allow setting-specific rules or options?

I know I certinally don't.

Signmaker
2009-08-29, 11:44 PM
Really, how many people play games not set in Eberron but allow setting-specific rules or options?

I know I certinally don't.

Vest of Legend. Badge of Valor. Inspirational Boost. None of which are setting-specific, nor alignment-locked. It's doable.

DementedFellow
2009-08-29, 11:46 PM
Really, how many people play games not set in Eberron but allow setting-specific rules or options?

I know I certinally don't.
In my experience, it has either been core only or anything with the d20 logo on it. A lot of it is describing why you are a warforged druid with a T-Rex as an animal companion to the DM.

JaxGaret
2009-08-29, 11:47 PM
In my experience, it has either been core only or anything with the d20 logo on it. A lot of it is describing why you are a warforged druid with a T-Rex as an animal companion to the DM.

This. As a DM I almost always err on the side of letting the player create the character they want to play, rather than limiting them for little reason.

oxinabox
2009-08-29, 11:49 PM
This is the Joker Bard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5496158#post5496158)
Not as well written as Logic Ninja's guide to being batman (How to make the most of what you have, when what you already have is better than most)
But it maybe of interest

Kylarra
2009-08-29, 11:50 PM
This. As a DM I almost always err on the side of letting the player create the character they want to play, rather than limiting them for little reason.Same. I make them justify their fluff to me though.

Keld Denar
2009-08-29, 11:54 PM
Yea, the really only big bardic feat that comes from a setting book is Song of the Heart, which isn't really a "setting specific" feat anymore than the Warforged feats are (since MMIII has Warforged and rules for them in a non-setting specific manner). Song of the Heart simply states that your songs are so much more moving, they touch people a little deeper. Nothing about being blessed with the grace of the Soveriegn Host, or conviction of the Silver Flame, or being a member of a Dragonmarked House, or anything the specifically refers to the setting.

If I was running a game in FR, or in a homebrewed setting, I'd allow any bard who's brave enough take Song of the Heart, simply because it DOESN'T have any setting specific flavor attached to it. And even if it did, its not hard to transmute many aspects of "flavor". You could have Radiant Servants of Lathander, or Ordained Champions who venerate Tyr, or even someone who takes the Favored of the House feat in say...a Morrowind setting to gain influence with the house of Balmora, or something.

And I'm gonna agree with Epinephrine. I'm also running a bard (just dinged 8th) in a PbP game with only 3 other characters in it, and his +4/+4 bard song it plenty good enough. The Crusader uses it to Stone Power, and the Cleric uses it to PA, and even the Sorcerer uses it to connect more often with Scorching Rays. My bard uses it to hit easier with his Whirling Blade attacks so he can activate his Sudden Stunning sword from a distance to add to his abilities as "disabler". You don't really need to give +12d6 or +12/+12 to be "effective".

Signmaker
2009-08-29, 11:59 PM
I've found that, martially, a bard can survive for quite a long time with just the bladeweave spell. It's really quite useful.

Kroy
2009-08-30, 12:08 AM
Does anybody know where the Bardblade guide is (if it exists)? My google-fu seems to be failing me.

Signmaker
2009-08-30, 12:10 AM
Nope, but it generally involves the use of any of the three: Inspire Courage, Slippers of Battledance, Snowflake Wardance.

And, of course, a few other random oddities. Like Harmonizing Crystal Echoblades.

LibraryOgre
2009-08-30, 12:33 AM
First of all, some archetypes:

Bard
http://blogs.e-rockford.com/applesauce/files/2008/08/johnnycash_bp.gif

Wizard
http://fmitga.net/images/Orko.jpg

Who do you want to be associated with, hmm? A man made of pure awesome, or someone so ashamed of his ineptitude that he can't even show his face?

Bards are awesome out of the box. In terms of skills and spells, they are the ultimate team player. Their abilities are designed around making sure that everyone else can do things better. And they don't need much in the way of feats to pull it off, either.

Inspire Courage. It makes everyone hit more often, and hit harder. It adds that extra pep to a critical, that extra half-inch that turns a miss into a hit, and that little touch that keeps everyone stalwart in battle. No party should be without it. A bard Inspiring courage makes everyone with a 3/4 BAB fight like they almost have a 1/1 BAB... without the need for DMM cheese, which only helps one person.

Inspire Competence. Every need something done right the first time? That's Inspire Competence.

Countersong. May not come up often, but how many times has your bard saved the party from harpies or shriekers? Every time you've had a bard and encountered harpies or shriekers.

Fascinate. Way under-utilized. Any time you need a distraction to get into position, a bard is BUILT for distraction. Plus, it leads to suggestion, which is also awesome.

Bardic Knowledge. Ever run into a problem that no one has a knowledge skill applicable? The bard does. He's been putting ranks into it simply by virtue of being a bard. A bard of 8th level or higher with a +2 intelligence has a chance of knowing the most obscure of information... and he doesn't need the +2 intelligence if he put 5 ranks (just 5 ranks!) in History. If he has both, he can start learning these things at 6th level.

Combat. Bards get proficiency with the whip, which is awesome. Why? Because you can trip people from the 2nd line. Whips are cheap... if you fail to trip the person, drop it and pull another one. Tripping also ignores damage resistance, and lets the rogue sneak attack people. Want to know what bards do best? They make other people better. How can a bard do that? Flank + Aid Another + Inspire Courage. +5 to hit at 1st level. If the bard goes with Combat Expertise (which, given the usefulness of tripping, isn't a bad idea), he can go heavy on the defense through CE, still pull off the AC 10 hit for Aid Another, and make sure that the fighter hits all the time. That +5 to hit? It turns the fighter's 2nd attack into something equal to his 1st attack. If he was going to hit once, he likely hits twice. If he was going to hit twice, he likely hits a 3rd time. And he's wearing Mithril Breastplate that he made and enchanted himself while doing it, because he's that awesome. After all, a Mithril breastplate can be made with a mere 5 ranks in Craft: Armorer... and a bard can poop 5 skill points and still have more to spread around that level.

Spells. Bard spells are fantastic. They may not get them as fast as wizards or sorcerers, but they're still wicked useful to an intelligent player. Of course, many spells they have are shared with other classes, but the most valuable resource in 3.x is actions... anything your bard is doing, someone else doesn't have to be.

1st level spells? You know that Grease that everyone loves to talk about? Bards get that. They get Sleep, the earliest save or die spell. They get Cure Light Wounds... and while people pooh-pooh combat healing, the ability to stop someone from dying is seldom disliked. Oh, and remember when your fighter ran away from combat, because he got feared? The bard can stop that. And make someone laugh until you kill them.
2nd level spells? Sound Burst, a great area-affect save-or-suck. Glitterdust. One of my favorites is heroism... enough to give anyone a boost, and one of the longer-lasting buffs available at 10/min/level. Slap your fighter on the back and send him in to win one for the Gipper... with a bard on his side, he will.
3rd level spells? Earliest access to Charm Monster... same character level as wizards, but an earlier spell level. Geasa. Haste. Glibness, which is what lets you pull off anything you need to... you can't match the bonus granted by Glibness until 27th level... and it lasts for more than an hour when you first get it. At 12th level, it lasts for 2 hours... a bard who wanted to could keep it going for 6 hours without dipping into his bonus spells. At 18th level, you can have a +30 to bluff checks for 12 hours a day... Sure, you don't have any 3rd level spell slots (except for bonus slots), but with a +51 to bluff... enough that you can display a false alignment, or fairly easily implant suggestions in your target. And you can pull suggestions off at 7th level (when your bluff modifier under Glibness is 40+Charisma mod).
4th level. Bards get Freedom of Movement. Wizards don't. With Shadow Conjuration, a bard can cast any wizard conjuring spell of 3rd level or less. A bard can put Dominate Person into a wand... a wizard can't. A bard can put Legend Lore into a wand... a wizard can't. Break enchantment they can put in a wand... wizards and clerics can't. And they have dimension door, too. Oh, and Mass Suggestion. Combine that with Glibness to make everyone believe everything. As Lincoln said, "You may fool all the people some of the time, you can even fool some of the people all of the time, but a bard can fool everyone until his spell slots run out."
5th level. Need an Evocation spell? How about Shadow Evocation? Not quite as real, but just as effective if you don't give them a chance to think about it. Mass cure light wounds... useful for trashing undead or for bringing everyone up from the brink at the same time (and why not cast it while under a under a Greater Invisibility)? Oh, and if a bard's 5th level mass transit spell messes up, you're lost. If a wizard's 5th level mass transit spell messes up, you're stuck in a mountain. Song of Discord, which makes your enemies fight each other? Bard-exclusive.

Please note, everything before this notice is core-only; nothing other than www.d20srd.com as a source No supplements. Nothing 3rd party. The most exotic I got was mentioning some things out of the Epic-Level Handbook. Those who insist bards aren't awesome are not playing a team game... they're trying to win D&D by making the most powerful character possible. Bards make sure the team wins... not by smashing everything in their path. Not by using broken spell combinations. Not even using a single splatbook. They make the team win by simply making sure that EVERYONE is better.

Bards are awesome. They are the sum total of everything every party needs.

Some bardy suggestions:

The Summoner. While Druids are usually thought of as summoners, a Bard who invests in Spell Focus: Conjuration and Augment Summoning can sling the monsters with the best of them. And, given that the bard has Speak Language as a class skill, he can likely talk to any of them (everything with the celestial and fiendish templates has an intelligence of 3, and can therefore understand at least 1 language). Summon them, use bardsong to buff them further. If you have Melodic Casting, summon more while buffing the first set, and your second set will also be buffed. Drown your opponents in Celestial Badgers.

The Combat Aide. Take buff spells. Aid Another. Trip people. Since you can't use a shield and cast, put a whip in your off-hand, and a rapier in your main hand. With Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Weapon Finesse you can make sure that no humanoid keeps its feet, and all your allies hit them again and again.

The Knowledge-maven. Put points into every knowledge skill. You may not be able to use an Archivist's Dark Knowledge, but you can tell everyone the weaknesses of the the monster, the common places for secret doors in dwarven ruins of this time period, the tenets of the religion of the guys you're fighting, and how to make your way back to the surface without getting lost. Learn every language. Put points into Decipher Script and start writing things in code.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-30, 12:41 AM
The Summoner. While Druids are usually thought of as summoners, a Bard who invests in Spell Focus: Conjuration and Augment Summoning can sling the monsters with the best of them. And, given that the bard has Speak Language as a class skill, he can likely talk to any of them (everything with the celestial and fiendish templates has an intelligence of 3, and can therefore understand at least 1 language). Summon them, use bardsong to buff them further. If you have Melodic Casting, summon more while buffing the first set, and your second set will also be buffed. Drown your opponents in Celestial Badgers.

You won't have a lot of spells/day for summoning, so perhaps a Ring of Spell Storing or something like that is in order.

LibraryOgre
2009-08-30, 12:58 AM
You won't have a lot of spells/day for summoning, so perhaps a Ring of Spell Storing or something like that is in order.

Good option. You can also do it with Wands, though you lose the advantage of Augment Summoning, but useful for mass-summons. Since this isn't necessarily a trippy bard, you can also go with a mithril-variant on the Caster's Shield.

Yora
2009-08-30, 04:36 AM
Bards are awesome out of the box.
You, good sir, have understood what the game is about.:smallyuk:

Keld Denar
2009-08-30, 04:53 AM
Good option. You can also do it with Wands, though you lose the advantage of Augment Summoning, but useful for mass-summons. Since this isn't necessarily a trippy bard, you can also go with a mithril-variant on the Caster's Shield.

Actually, according to our beloved FAQ, you get the effects of certain feats (Augemented Summoning among them) when you use Spell Trigger items (ie Wands). Its kinda janky, but thats what we've all come to expect from the sage...

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-30, 10:45 AM
Actually, according to our beloved FAQ, you get the effects of certain feats (Augemented Summoning among them) when you use Spell Trigger items (ie Wands). Its kinda janky, but thats what we've all come to expect from the sage...Yeah, no. Unless they gave a really good explanation for that, I'll file it in the "FAQ is staffed by a bunch of monkeys with typewriters" bin.

LibraryOgre
2009-08-30, 10:53 AM
Actually, according to our beloved FAQ, you get the effects of certain feats (Augemented Summoning among them) when you use Spell Trigger items (ie Wands). Its kinda janky, but thats what we've all come to expect from the sage...

Yeah... I can see Spell Completion items, since you are, after all, casting the spell yourself (in a sense). But spell trigger items I could only really see if you had created the item yourself.

AstralFire
2009-08-30, 10:56 AM
Bards don't need splat to be good (mechanically) or interesting (fluff-wise). Core only, they're better than anything else except the 9th level casters - middle of the road.

Splat for Bard is good at making them interesting (mechanically) though, and does bring them up in power a bit.

The White Knight
2009-08-30, 11:00 AM
The trick to being powerful as a Bard is to have everyone else be powerful for you. As everyone has mentioned, you make all of your allies better with your class abilities. Or you charm that Ogre and convince him to protect you from his pals. Or you suggest (perhaps with some help from Glibness) that the captain order his crew to surrender before you sink his ship, needlessly killing his whole crew. Or you make healthy use of your silly-high Diplomacy and Bluff skills for more mundane persuasion. Become a rock star, win the hearts of the masses.

A Beguiler can, of course, do most of this (and better), but the Beguiler is slightly more niche than the Jack-of-all-trades that is the bard. Speaking of which, combining the Jack of all Trades (CAdv) feat with the Bardic Knack alternate class feature (PHB2) is about one rank shy of having full cross-class ranks in every skill in existence, which is nothing to balk at. Combine with 5 ranks in some Knowledge skill and the Collector of Stories skill trick (CS), and you become a walking monster encyclopedia.

I used to think of Bards as a really silly class for a D&D game, conceptually. But then I realized it was kinda cool when the party rolls into a new town to have their Bard herald their bravery with song and tale and the local tavern or market square. Great way to boost reputation or to find work. And it's cool being the person who can do a little bit of anything and knows a little bit about everything, even if you're necessarily stellar at any of it.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-30, 11:10 AM
Speaking of which, combining the Jack of all Trades (CAdv) feat with the Bardic Knack alternate class feature (PHB2) is about one rank shy of having full cross-class ranks in every skill in existence, which is nothing to balk at.

The two do not combine by RAW (take the descriptions and post them here for comparison if you don't believe me) but I think most DMs would allow it to.

If you tack on the spell Improvisation, you will effectively have full ranks in all skills.

Korivan
2009-08-30, 11:30 AM
I know where your coming from. Having started in 2nd edition, bards where probably the WORST character class to build. And we didn't have no fancy feats or skill points back then. Let alone sonic damage or dragon heritage stuff. No. Back then if memory serves me right, they got crappy THACO(now rebuilt as BAB), moderat saves, fewer spells per day then a wizard, could only go up to maybe 5th level spells, could only cast from enchantment/illusion schools, his counter song could only be used against like two creatures ever. Even as a support character, they were sub-par at best.

In 3rd edition, Bards, like everything else, if built right, can serve as an excelent support character. If you have a larger party, and you have your arcane/divine casters, melee/ranged combatants, skill monkeys already, then a Bard can make for a wonderfull edition for flavor/RP/in general help to a group. We do have a guy that wants us to play as a 4 man team consisting of only core bards...no thanks.

Starbuck_II
2009-08-30, 12:06 PM
But 2nd edition bards have a better 3rd level spell that Fireball.
Skull Trap (no SR), damage 1d6/level (no cap), etc.

Really Player Option I think added stuff that made Bards better than Wizards.

Doc Roc
2009-08-30, 12:40 PM
God I hate skulltrap so much!

Zincorium
2009-08-30, 02:25 PM
Er, are you kidding me?

Bards got the same experience table as thieves, that is to say, they advanced faster than other characters. They made 3rd level with the same xp that wizards made 2nd with.

They were a level behind in spells for most of the early levels, but as they were often a level ahead of the wizard, their spells were close.

They had the same thac0 and hit points as thieves, they could use the weapons that a fighter could, they could wear armor up to chainmail (although they couldn't cast in it), and they were able to pick pockets.

In addition to all that, they had bardic music that could make people better all around. Just like in 3.5.

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-30, 02:30 PM
Splat for Bard is good at making them interesting (mechanically) though, and does bring them up in power a bit.

I dunno, I like the Lyric Thaumaturge's flavor. A school teaching you to get drunk, screw around and occassionally tell tales so epic it'd make Tyr cry? Where can I sign up?

kjones
2009-08-30, 03:27 PM
Glibness is the best spell ever. With a Bluff check of +50 or so (doable at 7st level), you can make anyone believe anything. It's rare to run up against someone with a Sense Motive of higher than +20, and the bonus to the opposed check for a completely outlandish lie is +20, so you've got a good chance of bluffing someone into believing that you were just delivering a pizza to the king, or that you were taking the gem to the cleaner's.

FlawedParadigm
2009-08-30, 03:34 PM
Also, there's 4E, where Bards are repeatedly hailed as one of the best classes, and get awesome abilities all around, and can be built to just about any role and do anything.

Yeah, I think the long line of suck descended from Gilbert/Edward is on its way out.

Draz74
2009-08-30, 08:11 PM
Er, are you kidding me?

Bards got the same experience table as thieves, that is to say, they advanced faster than other characters. They made 3rd level with the same xp that wizards made 2nd with.

They were a level behind in spells for most of the early levels, but as they were often a level ahead of the wizard, their spells were close.

They had the same thac0 and hit points as thieves, they could use the weapons that a fighter could, they could wear armor up to chainmail (although they couldn't cast in it), and they were able to pick pockets.

In addition to all that, they had bardic music that could make people better all around. Just like in 3.5.

Yeah, Bards in 2e were pretty much incredible ... if you could roll high enough attributes to be allowed to play one at all. :smallamused:

(Though at least their standards were lower than Paladins ...)

Korivan
2009-08-30, 09:03 PM
BAH!!! With combat and tactics, spells and magic, skills and powers, complete book of X, EVERYTHING was better then bards in 2nd edition. Tried to play one in pen and paper, and I lagged even further behind the cleric then the thief in the party. Played one in Baldur's Gate, got slaughterd. The one thing that playing a pen/paper bard in 2nd edition was that it taught me to really streatch my imagination with illusions, then argue with the DM to make said illusion work. Only then did I excell, but that could have been done better with a specialist wizard. The bard song wasn't great for me cause we had a small group and it made me lose anything else to do in a battle but to give minor bonuses to party members that didn't really need it. Then again, I never picked pockets so that part was lost to me.

Zincorium
2009-08-31, 08:35 AM
Edit:

Nevermind what I was going to say. If you don't have fun with a class, and other people do, all it means is you should play something that is fun for you.

Anything else is foolish.

Doc Roc
2009-08-31, 10:07 AM
Edit:

Nevermind what I was going to say. If you don't have fun with a class, and other people do, all it means is you should play something that is fun for you.

Anything else is foolish.

Actually, depends on how many people don't have fun with it. At a certain point, it starts to get reasonable to try and warn people that they may also suffer.

Kaiyanwang
2009-08-31, 10:22 AM
Bards are awesome in a party because the party will be sure their deeds will live in tales forever.

A lot of fluff and mechanical awesomeness comes after, but THIS is the first reason.

LibraryOgre
2009-08-31, 02:15 PM
I know where your coming from. Having started in 2nd edition, bards where probably the WORST character class to build. And we didn't have no fancy feats or skill points back then. Let alone sonic damage or dragon heritage stuff. No. Back then if memory serves me right, they got crappy THACO(now rebuilt as BAB), moderat saves, fewer spells per day then a wizard, could only go up to maybe 5th level spells, could only cast from enchantment/illusion schools, his counter song could only be used against like two creatures ever. Even as a support character, they were sub-par at best.

Memory does not serve you right.

1) Bards got a 1/2 ThAC0, true, but it was with any weapon, and a great XP progression.
2) Saves were more or less on par with everyone else, except priests (who had wicked good saves).
3) Fewer Spells per day, yes. However, by the time a wizard had 2 1st level spells per day, so did the Bard. They could, IIRC, go up to 6th level, and they could cast any wizard spell they could learn.

LibraryOgre
2009-08-31, 02:31 PM
BAH!!! With combat and tactics, spells and magic, skills and powers, complete book of X, EVERYTHING was better then bards in 2nd edition. Tried to play one in pen and paper, and I lagged even further behind the cleric then the thief in the party. Played one in Baldur's Gate, got slaughterd. The one thing that playing a pen/paper bard in 2nd edition was that it taught me to really streatch my imagination with illusions, then argue with the DM to make said illusion work. Only then did I excell, but that could have been done better with a specialist wizard. The bard song wasn't great for me cause we had a small group and it made me lose anything else to do in a battle but to give minor bonuses to party members that didn't really need it. Then again, I never picked pockets so that part was lost to me.

Yeah, you missed out on a lot with a P&P bard in 2e.

1) Picking pockets is fine. The great skill for bards, however, was Read Languages. They got it at 1st level, and had no limits in how many points they could sink into it. They also had no stated maximum on their skills. Let the thief pick pockets, listen at doors, and climb walls. You can read any language, every time.
2) Spells. Sure, you didn't have much in terms of spells, especially if the wizard was greedy, but good spell selection could make a ton of difference. Armor was fantastic, but I liked giving my bard a variety of non-combat spells, instead. And having him wear chain mail. Greatly increases your survivability when you've got an AC 5 that can't be dispelled or beaten out of you.
3) Knowing things. A lot of people overlooked that a bard had 4 bonus NWPs (Reading/Writing, Singing, Play Musical Instrument, Local History). Local History is a fantastic proficiency, especially for bards with their 15 Charisma. 75% chance (or better) to find out tons of things about your local area. Every NWP is available to you except Healing. Identification of magic items. Bards were great with skills... again.
4) Music. The real draw of the 2e bard WASN'T the "Inspiring Courage" analog, or even the ability to countersong (which was useful to have whenever you needed it). No, the real draw of bards, in terms of music, was the ability to change people's reactions. Make sure everyone loved you (and your party) in every town. Increase rewards because people like you more. Avoid getting killed when you get captured because you sing so awesome. Stop a dragon from eating you.1 Shift a border town in the Outlands into another plane entirely.

You read that last one right. My bard, because he could speak so awesome, essentially cast Plane Shift on an entire town. By talking. Bards rule.2

5) Combat. Once again, Bards are first line fighters of last resort. In Baldur's Gate, you gave them a bow and sat back. In D&D, you had the glamorous job of guarding the wizard... maybe swinging a wand if you had it, or otherwise aiding the fight (crossbow!), but keeping that wizard safe.


1 The Night Below. 1st book. We had a very arrogant person with our party, but I calmed her down.
2 Fires of Dis. I got a point of wisdom from that adventure, and a dragon-slaying scimitar.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-01, 12:09 PM
Assuming this is 3.5....core bards are indeed weak.

I will give one exception, and this is with an exceptionally large party. Since bards are more team-buff friendly than most classes, the power of the bard tends to be affected by the size of the party.

If there's only going to be 2-3 players, a bard is a poor choice. If you're in a mammoth party with say, 7+, the bard can potentially be doing a great deal just in how he boosts others.

Obviously, this does not apply for all versions and all splatbooks, but a bard isn't generally a solo character, he's a team booster, if he's going to be effective.

Draz74
2009-09-01, 12:55 PM
Assuming this is 3.5....core bards are indeed weak.

I will give one exception, and this is with an exceptionally large party.

I will give one more exception: if the DM actually runs the Diplomacy skill exactly as written. :smallbiggrin:

LibraryOgre
2009-09-01, 02:21 PM
Assuming this is 3.5....core bards are indeed weak.

I will give one exception, and this is with an exceptionally large party. Since bards are more team-buff friendly than most classes, the power of the bard tends to be affected by the size of the party.

If there's only going to be 2-3 players, a bard is a poor choice. If you're in a mammoth party with say, 7+, the bard can potentially be doing a great deal just in how he boosts others.

Obviously, this does not apply for all versions and all splatbooks, but a bard isn't generally a solo character, he's a team booster, if he's going to be effective.

I disagree. With only 2-3 people, a bard is invaluable, because they can fill a variety of roles; they're not masters of any of them, but their ability to be anything you need means you have what you need... you may have a Leatherman instead of a pair of pliers, and a Leatherman instead of a screwdriver set... but you can get it done, if you're willing to work with what you have.

With 4-5 people,the utility of a bard drops off. You have enough people to cover the basic roles, with a little wiggle room, and a bard's buffing isn't as fantastic when you've only got a few. The bard's no slouch in this case, but he's going to likely find himself less useful unless he goes for broke(n).

At 6+, a bard starts to shine again. You've got enough for a regular ballroom blitz, so a bard can have a big impact... every almost-missed roll becomes the bard's property. He can go for a quirky little specialty, if he likes, and the party is big enough to absorb it.

Diamondeye
2009-09-01, 03:21 PM
The bard has two other advantages:

1) additional healing; very helpful if no one is playing a serious healer and

2) ToB gish builds. If you rely on your martial maneuvers for offensive power, the bard spells work well for healing, defense, and utility with a Jade Phoenix Mage build. Crusader works the best from a MAD standpoint, but either of the others can work as well although you'll need to Martial Study a Desert Wind or Devoted Spirit manuever if you choose warblade.

Whenever I've tossed this build around I've gone 4 levels into bard, then 1-2 into a martial adept, then JPM for the long haul. By 20 this gives you level 18 martial maneuvers and level 12 bardic spellcasting. You can go 2 more levels into Bard and still get level 9 maneuvers by level 20 if you want 2 more levels of spellcasting and bardic abilities.

ericgrau
2009-09-01, 04:24 PM
The most commonly discussed method here is splatbooks, but really that can make any class or style more powerful.

IMO for a splatbook free bard, just find what the bard can do well - just as well as any other class - and focus on those. Trip, disarm objects (like spell component pouches), use the "batman" spells that are good even at low level, craft magic items, skillmonkey, handle between battle healing & remove X scrolls, etc. Don't do what you can't do as well as others, like melee damage or SoD spells. +X buffs always suck in core; whether bard or no bard, song or spell. So use those only outside of combat. The core bard gets a larger number of powerful options than anyone, you just need to figure out which options those are. Also note that cha plays a minor role, if any, in all things listed. So for the love of Pete make cha a secondary stat; you are not a full caster.