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Mystic Muse
2009-08-29, 09:49 PM
some classes stack with others and you advance in the PRC as if you were advancing in the other class. does this apply to hellreaver, bloodstorm blade, or shadow sun ninja?

Mongoose87
2009-08-29, 09:56 PM
some classes stack with others and you advance in the PRC as if you were advancing in the other class. does this apply to hellreaver, bloodstorm blade, or shadow sun ninja?

Hellreaver? Is what?

Mystic Muse
2009-08-29, 09:59 PM
it's a prestige class from fiendish codex 2

Wings of Peace
2009-08-29, 10:01 PM
Not sure about Hellreaver I don't have the book in front of me right now. The ToB prcs state in their abilities though whether they stack for initiating or not. Or did I miss part of the question?

Mystic Muse
2009-08-29, 10:05 PM
maybe I explained it badly. I do that sometimes. in some PRCs the PRC's levels stack with your previous class's level so you'd be PRC x 15/Paladin 15 (where x is some random PRC)

Dhavaer
2009-08-29, 11:13 PM
That's still not a great explanation; do you mean PrCs that scale abilities as if they were a base class (example: A PrC that counts as Paladin for Lay On Hands)? If so, no class will do that for warblades because warblades have no abilities that scale with class levels.

Gralamin
2009-08-29, 11:27 PM
maybe I explained it badly. I do that sometimes. in some PRCs the PRC's levels stack with your previous class's level so you'd be PRC x 15/Paladin 15 (where x is some random PRC)

I think I get what your asking, but let me know.

Are you asking whether Hellreaver, Bloodstorm Blade, and Shadow Sun Ninja all advance Initiator level? If so yes. If you're a Warblade 5/Bloodstorm Blade 5, you have an Initiator Level of 10, and next level if you take Warblade you may take 6th level maneuvers. The only time this does not happen is if a Prestige class specifically saids so.

If you're asking if they give you new maneuvers, then Hellreaver does not, Bloodstorm Blade does not, and Shadow Sun Ninja does.

Keld Denar
2009-08-29, 11:28 PM
I'm wondering if he means that a PrC like a Legacy Champion would progress IL 1:1 instead of 2:1?

I'm thinkin it would, because its effectively adding more levels of "warblade". I dunno. Probably not clear by RAW, but possible if you ask your DM nicely (tequillia helps too).

EDIT: Only PrCs that have IL progressions give 1:1 IL progression. BSB requires maneuvers to get in but doesn't have a maneuver progression and thusly wouldn't advance IL. A Warblade5/BSB5 would have an IL of (5 +5/2)=7.

Gralamin
2009-08-29, 11:33 PM
EDIT: Only PrCs that have IL progressions give 1:1 IL progression. BSB requires maneuvers to get in but doesn't have a maneuver progression and thusly wouldn't advance IL. A Warblade5/BSB5 would have an IL of (5 +5/2)=7.

Incorrect

Page 39 of ToB

Prestige Classes work a little differently. In most cases, you add the full prestige class level to your martial adept level to determine your initiator level.

It also saids see chapter 5 for more details, but Chapter 5 doesn't mention Initiator level stacking.

Mystic Muse
2009-08-29, 11:38 PM
okay one other question. in order to use the Hellreaver's best ability it says I have to be a level 10 hellreaver. I'm wondering if this works like a base class or more like a wizard for determining spell levels?

Douglas
2009-08-29, 11:40 PM
I think I get what your asking, but let me know.

Are you asking whether Hellreaver, Bloodstorm Blade, and Shadow Sun Ninja all advance Initiator level? If so yes. If you're a Warblade 5/Bloodstorm Blade 5, you have an Initiator Level of 10, and next level if you take Warblade you may take 6th level maneuvers. The only time this does not happen is if a Prestige class specifically saids so.
Incorrect. I assume you are basing this on the sentence from page 39 of ToB that states "In most cases, you add the full prestige class level to your martial adept level to determine your initiator level." This is not strictly a rule, it is merely an observation that all but one of the PrCs in the same book behave that way. That sentence is immediately followed by a directive to see chapter 5 of the same book for details. In said chapter, 7 of the 8 PrCs presented have explicit statements that they count fully for Initiator Level. There are no PrCs in any WotC splatbook anywhere for 3.5e that state the opposite.

If that particular sentence were to be taken as an actual rule, either it should read that all PrCs count fully for Initiator Level or the decision of which ones don't is left entirely up to individual DMs. The former is clearly not what is meant, and the latter is an absurd inference with nearly no basis. The 7 PrCs in ToB that state they advance initiator level at full speed do so. Uncanny Trickster and Legacy Champion also do so for the levels that advance class features of a previous class, provided you choose a martial adept class to be advanced. All other PrCs (unless I missed one with an explicit statement to the contrary) count half.

Edit:

It also saids see chapter 5 for more details, but Chapter 5 doesn't mention Initiator level stacking.
Yes it does, 7 times in 7 PrC descriptions. Specifically, the Maneuvers section of each class except Bloodstorm Blade.

ShadowFighter15
2009-08-29, 11:45 PM
okay one other question. in order to use the Hellreaver's best ability it says I have to be a level 10 hellreaver. I'm wondering if this works like a base class or more like a wizard for determining spell levels?

That just counts your levels in Hellreaver.

Mystic Muse
2009-08-29, 11:48 PM
ah cool.:smallcool::smallcool:

Gralamin
2009-08-29, 11:57 PM
Incorrect. I assume you are basing this on the sentence from page 39 of ToB that states "In most cases, you add the full prestige class level to your martial adept level to determine your initiator level." This is not strictly a rule, it is merely an observation that all but one of the PrCs in the same book behave that way. That sentence is immediately followed by a directive to see chapter 5 of the same book for details. In said chapter, 7 of the 8 PrCs presented have explicit statements that they count fully for Initiator Level. There are no PrCs in any WotC splatbook anywhere for 3.5e that state the opposite.

If that particular sentence were to be taken as an actual rule, either it should read that all PrCs count fully for Initiator Level or the decision of which ones don't is left entirely up to individual DMs. The former is clearly not what is meant, and the latter is an absurd inference with nearly no basis. The 7 PrCs in ToB that state they advance initiator level at full speed do so. Uncanny Trickster and Legacy Champion also do so for the levels that advance class features of a previous class, provided you choose a martial adept class to be advanced. All other PrCs (unless I missed one with an explicit statement to the contrary) count half.

Edit:

Yes it does, 7 times in 7 PrC descriptions. Specifically, the Maneuvers section of each class except Bloodstorm Blade.

Arguing its an observation seems a bit absurd. First of all, That entire section of text, except, according to you, the bit on prestige classes, is rules. Taking a section out of whats otherwise pure rules and saying "This is not actually part of the rules" seems absurd.

Second of all, Chapter 5 has an entire section on Advancing Martial Progression, in which would, presumably, be the primary rules source for Prestige Classes and how they interact with martial adepts, and how non-martial adepts interact with prestige classes.

Third of all, "Most cases" means that the majority of PrC's should give this benefit. Since the back of the book states it should be used with the core books, including the Dungeon Masters Guide we can infer the rules should work the same way for at least them. There are 15 Prestige classes in the SRD from the DMG, and I think they are missing one or two of them such as the Red Wizard. If less then half of Prestige classes in Core + Tome of Battle alone would not give this benefit, then it should not say "most" should it?

Fourth of all, You claim that the descriptions for each prestige class create an overall rule, while ignoring something that should be considered a rule (point 1). If Point 1 is a rule, then the Prestige class descriptions are just clarifying text that follows it. If Point 1 is not a rule, the Prestige Class descriptions do not include a rule for anything but themselves, in which case it is unknown how it should act (Except for Point 1, which suggests full IL).

I'm not saying its right, I'm saying its RAW.

Keld Denar
2009-08-30, 12:06 AM
By your own citation "In most cases, you add the full prestige class level to your martial adept level to determine your initiator level."

Yea, MOST of the PrCs described in Chapter 7 advance IL, as dictated in their individual descriptions. No other PrCs have that statement. Most is not all inclusive, though. Only PrCs that state that they do...do. Otherwise the statement in those PrCs that do advance IL would be redundant.

Gralamin
2009-08-30, 12:08 AM
By your own citation "In most cases, you add the full prestige class level to your martial adept level to determine your initiator level."

Yea, MOST of the PrCs described in Chapter 7 advance IL, as dictated in their individual descriptions. No other PrCs have that statement. Most is not all inclusive, though. Only PrCs that state that they do...do. Otherwise the statement in those PrCs that do advance IL would be redundant.

See my Third bullet. "Most" is easily inferable to be DMG + Tome of Battle, since both books should be at play according to Tome of Battle itself. "Most" of the PRCs then would not have it according to the ruling you are using.

Kylarra
2009-08-30, 12:16 AM
"Most" is more easily inferred to be a reference to the prestige classes within the book itself. The particular quote you're referencing says to refer to the prestige class descriptions for more details. The ones that advance IL on 1:1 specifically state that they do, the one that doesn't obviously doesn't. By inference, classes that don't state they advance IL by 1:1, don't then.

Your inference is illogical in context, otherwise 7/8ths of the prestige classes would not need to explicitly write out that they stack.

Gralamin
2009-08-30, 12:20 AM
The particular quote you're referencing says to refer to the prestige class descriptions for more details.

Thats not what it saids. It saids to see Chapter 5 for details. Thats it. The only details in Chapter 5 happen to be specific classes saying they do give them. That does not mean inferring that other classes don't get them unless they say so is correct, as the details are never actually given.

It's RAW, as strange as it seems. RAMS/RAI Is defiantly the view that I'm arguing against though.

Kylarra
2009-08-30, 12:26 AM
Thats not what it saids. It saids to see Chapter 5 for details. Thats it. The only details in Chapter 5 happen to be specific classes saying they do give them. That does not mean inferring that other classes don't get them unless they say so is correct, as the details are never actually given.

It's RAW, as strange as it seems. RAMS/RAI Is defiantly the view that I'm arguing against though.
I'm looking at my book right now. Pg 39.


Prestige classes work a little differently. In most cases, you add the full prestige class level to your martial adept level to determine your initiator level. See the prestige class descriptions in chapter 5 for details. (emphasis mine)

Not "See chapter 5", but the prestige class descriptions in chapter 5. 7 of the 8 descriptions clearly state that you add their class levels to your initiator level. One does not. 7 of 8 qualifies as "most" in the context of the book.

Gralamin
2009-08-30, 12:27 AM
I'm looking at my book right now. Pg 39.

(emphasis mine)

Not "See chapter 5", but the prestige class descriptions in chapter 5. 7 of the 8 descriptions clearly state that you add their class levels to your initiator level. One does not. 7 of 8 qualifies as "most" in the context of the book.

Your book is apparently different then mine. Mine states "See Chapter 5 for details" and thats it.

Edit: If someone else can give me a confirm, I'll pencil it in. Mine's a first printing, but since its binding is so bad already, I wouldn't be surprised if my book had a mistake in it.

Elfin
2009-08-30, 12:27 AM
some classes stack with others and you advance in the PRC as if you were advancing in the other class. does this apply to hellreaver, bloodstorm blade, or shadow sun ninja?

Most PrCs in ToB advance IL on a 1-1 basis (though not all). However, in other classes and PrCs IL is only advanced on a 2-1 basis.

AslanCross
2009-08-30, 01:08 AM
Your book is apparently different then mine. Mine states "See Chapter 5 for details" and thats it.

Edit: If someone else can give me a confirm, I'll pencil it in. Mine's a first printing, but since its binding is so bad already, I wouldn't be surprised if my book had a mistake in it.

Mine does indeed say "See the prestige class descriptions in Chapter 5 for details."

Mystic Muse
2009-08-30, 01:23 AM
so does mine.

olentu
2009-08-30, 01:30 AM
Mine as well.

ShadowFighter15
2009-08-30, 02:21 AM
Same here.

T.G. Oskar
2009-08-30, 02:33 AM
I'll join the bandwagon and say "same here". Reading it right from my hardcover book.

Furthermore, when I go to chapter 5, and read page 96, I read "Most of the prestige classes on this chapter offer...". If you look at it, the "most" refers to the PrCs from Tome of Battle, not exactly from ToB + DMG. The referral page supersedes in this case the page 39 in the case of the "most". For everything else, treat the PrCs from other classes as 1/2 IL, except for those who advance class abilities. Except for Legacy Champion and those who advance class abilities, which increase IL 1:1 but have their own rules about learning maneuvers.

See? Not so hard to understand. Clear, strictly RAW, and not open for interpretation.

Gralamin
2009-08-30, 02:38 AM
I'll join the bandwagon and say "same here". Reading it right from my hardcover book.

Furthermore, when I go to chapter 5, and read page 96, I read "Most of the prestige classes on this chapter offer...". If you look at it, the "most" refers to the PrCs from Tome of Battle, not exactly from ToB + DMG. The referral page supersedes in this case the page 39 in the case of the "most". For everything else, treat the PrCs from other classes as 1/2 IL, except for those who advance class abilities. Except for Legacy Champion and those who advance class abilities, which increase IL 1:1 but have their own rules about learning maneuvers.

See? Not so hard to understand. Clear, strictly RAW, and not open for interpretation.

The Page 96 quote is actually irrelevant, but the Prestige class description bit is VERY relevant. Added in now.

Douglas
2009-08-30, 09:44 AM
Arguing its an observation seems a bit absurd. First of all, That entire section of text, except, according to you, the bit on prestige classes, is rules. Taking a section out of whats otherwise pure rules and saying "This is not actually part of the rules" seems absurd.
Not when that particular bit says "in most cases". Anything that qualifies itself with "in most cases" is inherently impossible to be an actual rule consistent with 3.5 design philosophy without a clarification of which cases those are or an explicit statement that it's up to the DM. The only clarification given is seven statements that a particular PrC is such a case. The only reasonable conclusion from that is that of a precedent that PrCs that grant full IL advancement say so individually. The close proximity of the statement to check the PrCs in the same book for details suggests that the "in most cases" statement was only meant to refer to those PrCs, and this interpretation is the only one consistent with both the available clarification details and the overwhelmingly dominant 3.5 design philosophy of trying to not require the DM to fill in blank spots in the rules.

And I'll add to the chorus about the sentence being specifically "See the prestige class descriptions in Chapter 5 for details."