Why Does Flash Have the Best Villains?

[orchitect]

I know that calling the Rogues "the Best Villians" is an opinion, but I know I'm not the only person who thinks they are the best out there now or then. I've talked to too many people who like Captain Cold more than the Flash himself to think that all of us read the books just for the Speedster, we read it for the villains!

I was reading Rogues War tonight, and I couldn't answer the most fundamental question, "Why does the Flash have such great villains?" Why the Flash and not Batman, who arguably has some great villains himself. What makes them iconic and memorable and, dare I say, likable and admirable?

[Strawman]

I'm sorry. I couldn't hear your post over the sound of the Joker laughing at it.
:smalltongue: Joking, of course.

I haven't read much of Flash comics, except for the really old stuff and a little bit of the new stuff. What I've seen is very well developed characters in regards to the villains. And as examples like the boomerang guy and the Joker prove, a villain's powers don't matter when you have some serious personality to use.

Just as the Flash is by no means the perfect hero, so too are his villains not completely villainous. This is different from many comics, and so very important to a beleivable character.

[chiasaur11]

No idea.

Always been fond of the foes of the Fantastic Four, myself.

[kpenguin]

Always been fond of the foes of the Fantastic Four, myself.

Really? Other than DOOM and Namor, I don't think any of the FF's villains are particularly memorable.

[Cyrano]

Really? Other than DOOM and Namor, I don't think any of the FF's villains are particularly memorable.

There are OTHER villains? Besides SS and Galactus, obviously. Still...woah.

[Catch]

If Flash did have the best villains, they'd be more memorable. Lemme just try and list off the rogues galleries for comparison.

Batman: Joker, Ra's al Ghul, Scarecrow, Riddler, Ivy, Freeze, Hush...
Supes: Bizzaro, Luthor, Hank Henshaw, Darksied, Brainiac, Mxyzptlk, Mongul...
GL: Sinestro, Black Hand, Manhunters, Parallax, the Rainbow Brite Corps...

Flash: Reverse Flash... Captain Cold? And, um....

Anyway, the point is that most of Flash's Rogues aren't really villains in the modern sense, considering killing is infrequent and there's a sort of honor among thieves. They're more of a Sliver Age relic in a world where
Batman gets a bullet in the head and Vic Sage dies of cancer.
Those qualities make them unique, but not particularly memorable to readers who don't follow Flash that often.

[kpenguin]

GL has villains other than Sinestro? :smalltongue:

[Cyrano]

If Flash did have the best villains, they'd be more memorable. Lemme just try and list off the rogues galleries for comparison.

Batman: Joker, Ra's al Ghul, Scarecrow, Riddler, Ivy, Freeze, Hush...
Supes: Bizzaro, Luthor, Hank Henshaw, Darksied, Brainiac, Mxyzptlk, Mongul...
GL: Sinestro, Black Hand, Manhunters, Parallax, the Rainbow Brite Corps...

Flash: Reverse Flash... Captain Cold? And, um....

Anyway, the point is that most of Flash's Rogues aren't really villains in the modern sense, considering killing is infrequent and there's a sort of honor among thieves. They're more of a Sliver Age relic in a world where
Batman gets a bullet in the head and Vic Sage dies of cancer.
Those qualities make them unique, but not particularly memorable to readers who don't follow Flash that often.

Is it possible there's a selection bias taking place?

EDIT: Wait, selection bias sounds pretty but I don't know if that's exactly what I mean, which is: Is it possible that not following the comics that often makes them impossible to be "memorable"? If you're an avid fan of everything but The Flash then The Flash's villains won't stick out at you.

[Dienekes]

To Orchitect, I think a Flash villain, the Trickster said it best. "When super-villains want to scare each other, they tell Joker stories."

Yeah, not buying The Flash has the best villains. Though he has some good ones, no doubt. You mentioned Captain Cold, Gorilla Grodd is always good for a laugh (but I can never take him as a credible villain), Trickster, Boomerang, they're all decent villains.

But generally Flash is not considered one of the main sources of villains, which are Batman, Spiderman, and X-Men. (Not that I personally agree with these 3, outside the first, but they are generally considered to have the best and most flavorful).

And yeah, Cold is better than Flash (though that might be my general love of villainy talking) but then, most characters are more interesting than Flash.

[Starscream]

Although I'm more of a fan of Batman's rogues (Mr. Freeze > Captain Cold, Riddler > Trickster), I agree that Flash has a pretty cool lineup.

The fact that most of them are not entirely villainous is pretty neat. As is the fact that they have no singular theme connecting them, just being comprised of seemingly random gimmicks. Superman fights mad scientists and aliens, Batman fights maniacs, Wonder woman fights mythological characters, Flash fights ... leftovers.

And one of my favorite comic runs of all time was Mark Waid's run on the Flash. I think he made the rogues really stand out for me as characters. He gave them each a unique voice and personality. Even good villains tend to get saddled with the occasional writer who thinks their personality consists of "I'm evil! Mwahaha!" Waid never did that, even with the really bad guys like Kadabra and Grodd.

I still don't get why any of them are a threat to the Flash, though. Never made any sense. The guy can run across water, freezing the ground shouldn't make him slip. And how can you possibly have time to aim and fire when the guy can move at the speed of light?

[PhoeKun]

Is it possible there's a selection bias taking place?

EDIT: Wait, selection bias sounds pretty but I don't know if that's exactly what I mean, which is: Is it possible that not following the comics that often makes them impossible to be "memorable"? If you're an avid fan of everything but The Flash then The Flash's villains won't stick out at you.

This is always a strange sort of question to tackle. "Do you not like this because the characters aren't memorable, or are the characters not memorable because you don't like it?" is precisely the comic book equivalent of "Am I a knight dreaming of a sleeping grasshopper or a grasshopper dreaming of a sleeping knight?"

Which is to say it sounds like a profound and intriguing point, and you can get lost inside for a great many hours talking your way from one side to the other and pondering the eternal mystery of perception vs reality, but eventually it boils down to the much simpler observation that everyone is asleep.

What I can tell you is that the Joker is an incredibly memorable character to people who don't follow Batman that often, and Lex Luthor is well known among tangential visitors to the Superman universe. As someone only occasionally visiting comicbookland, and usually only when one happens to fall into my lap (or a movie comes out that someone would like to see with me), several villains have jumped out as being somehow more memorable than others. None of them have ever been Flash villains.

[chiasaur11]

Really? Other than DOOM and Namor, I don't think any of the FF's villains are particularly memorable.

Sure!

There's Annihilus, the LIVING DEATH THAT WALKS (awesomeness), the Skrulls, Blastarr, Mole Man and his army of classic Kirby monsters, a few lame ones that are good for a laugh (The frightful four, Puppet Master, Red Ghost)...

Note that two of those groups, when they interact with the FF, are
"Tuesday."
"Yup."
"Annihilus?"
"Pittsburg."
"Let me finish this stogie."

While for the rest of the MU, they're "We're all going to DIE" fodder.

[Haven]

I think the thing is that Flash's villains aren't that great individually, but the way they interact is downright unique for a "rogue's gallery". Most villains do occasional team-ups, but Flash's rogues are basically a community unto themselves, which is a cool idea.

[Thrawn183]

If Flash did have the best villains, they'd be more memorable. Lemme just try and list off the rogues galleries for comparison.


Supes: , Mxyzptlk

I've got a compilation of the original superman comics, and I can say that whatever you're smoking on this one can bring about world peace and cure cancer. It's so strong it rivals chuck norris.

[WitchSlayer]

Batman's rogues are massively overrated. Flash's rogues have some semblance of community and they have things they just don't do. Don't let Captain Cold catch you trying to snort cocaine off a mirror. Most of Batman's rogues are just full of neurosis.

Joker being quite possibly the most overrated character of all time, seriously guys, he isn't THAT good, he's not even modern Luthor level. Also, who says Spider-Man has good rogues? He has Green Goblin, Venom, Kingpin when Daredevil doesn't have him, but apart from that? His rogues gallery is pretty much entirely a joke.

Although I admit, Batman does have the most colorful rogues gallery...
With enemies like Crazy Quilt and Rainbow Raider you'd be hard pressed not to have that title.
Ba dum tish.

[Querzis]

Joker being quite possibly the most overrated character of all time, seriously guys, he isn't THAT good, he's not even modern Luthor level.

You are now my mortal enemy. The Joker is usually the first rank of any villains list and hes still underrated. The Joker will be underrated as long as everyone doesnt piss himself in fear as soon as they hear his name.

[raitalin]

I'm a huge fan of Spidey's gallery, even if a lot of them are perpetual punching bags. Green Goblin, Venom/Carnage and Sandman are great characters.

I have to say the overall coolest gallery is the X-men's though, and I'm not even a big X-fan. Magneto, Mr. Sinister, Apocalypse, the Sentinels, the Shadow King. Even short-lived villains like Dark Phoenix, Cassandra Nova, Stryfe and Bastion were good.

I actually always though the Flash's villains were super lame. A guy with a freeze ray? Meh. A super-intelligent gorilla? Meh, though decent when well written. An exact opposite character? Meh. They all just seem like lame rehashings of old cliches. Though I guess some of them may be the original cliches themselves. DC outside of Batman generally all seems like this to me though.

*Totally biased opinion of a life-long marvel reader who's read less than a half-dozen Flash comics in his lifetime*

[Haven]

You are now my mortal enemy. The Joker is usually the first rank of any villains list and hes still underrated. The Joker will be underrated as long as everyone doesnt piss himself in fear as soon as they hear his name.

Batman is the world's greatest detective, one of the world's top 30--maybe even top 10--martial artists, a supergenius who has designed and built an arsenal of sci-fi weaponry, possibly the world's richest man, and a ninja. He's taken on gods and monsters and alien horrors. It took the incarnation of evil at the peak of its power to kill him, and we all know it won't last.

The Joker? He's a clown, who likes to kill.

How is this guy Batman's arch nemesis..

[Prime32]

Because he's scary.

Plus, he's the most insane character in the DC universe, making it impossible for even Batman to anticipate him.

[charl]

The reason the Flash has great villains is because they don't follow the same theme as he does. Think about it, Iron Man always fights other rich smart people or other people in powered armour, Spider-Man fights people with animal-related powers, Batman fights other mentally deranged people with gadgets and so on. The Flash's villains (mostly) don't have speed powers, but completely unrelated ones.

[Catch]

Is it possible there's a selection bias taking place?

EDIT: Wait, selection bias sounds pretty but I don't know if that's exactly what I mean, which is: Is it possible that not following the comics that often makes them impossible to be "memorable"? If you're an avid fan of everything but The Flash then The Flash's villains won't stick out at you.

That's not quite the term, but I get where you're coming from.

To be fair, I don't follow Superman either. I can only stand him in small doses of Deus Ex Machina. Batman's villains are more iconic and antagonists powerful enough to rival Superman often appear in JLA and such. Flash's Rouges are more small-time and local (mostly true of Batman) and don't stand out prominent in memory because outside of Flash stories, they're pretty insignificant. Most of this hinges on the fact that Flash will always be obfuscated by the notoriety of Batman, Superman and the various GLs.

I'm not saying his villains aren't well-developed, only that, like Flash, they don't get much publicity.


I've got a compilation of the original superman comics, and I can say that whatever you're smoking on this one can bring about world peace and cure cancer. It's so strong it rivals chuck norris.

Best hit the books (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mister_Mxyzptlk), then.

Try Superman Vol. 1 #30 for starters.


Batman is the world's greatest detective, one of the world's top 30--maybe even top 10--martial artists, a supergenius who has designed and built an arsenal of sci-fi weaponry, possibly the world's richest man, and a ninja. He's taken on gods and monsters and alien horrors. It took the incarnation of evil at the peak of its power to kill him, and we all know it won't last.

The Joker? He's a clown, who likes to kill.

How is this guy Batman's arch nemesis..

That's a lot like saying Darth Vader is a cripple with laser sword.

[Querzis]

Batman is the world's greatest detective, one of the world's top 30--maybe even top 10--martial artists, a supergenius who has designed and built an arsenal of sci-fi weaponry, possibly the world's richest man, and a ninja. He's taken on gods and monsters and alien horrors. It took the incarnation of evil at the peak of its power to kill him, and we all know it won't last.

The Joker? He's a clown, who likes to kill.

How is this guy Batman's arch nemesis..

Well first, because hes the creepiest guy ever. You obviously havent read many Joker stories. And by the way, the Joker is just as smart as Batman, hes pretty much as strong as Batman and he actually win against Batman very often so I dont get why you are listing Batman strength when the Joker can also do all of this. Beside, hes chaos incarnate. Hes not a clown who like to kill, he can be the most gentle guy in the world for two seconds and then bite you throath off. Harley Quinn actually called Joker insanity a form of 'super sanity' where he simply totally change his personnality to fit the situation. And, since you asked, the main reason hes Batman nemesis is because most people see Batman as Order incarnate. Chaos incarnate and Order incarnate, see a pattern here?

How creepy is this guy? Well as Dienekes said: "When super-villains want to scare each other, they tell Joker stories." Everytimes DC villains team up, they dont let the Joker join them because hes very likely to utterly break their minds or torture them in the middle of their plans for no real reasons. There is also the fact that hes totally fearless, Scarecrow gaz has absolutely no effects on him. Also, simply trying to read his mind once make you totally insane. His mooks follow him because hes just as likely to shoot them in the face as to give them millions of dollars, he has already done both very often and they are desperate enough to take a 50/50 chance.

Beside, this is the guy who once snapped his own neck just to win an argument. And he got killed plenty of other times, once by getting shot in the back of the head. Some people think he come back because hes REALLY an avatar of chaos and therefore just take the body of another person if hes killed or maybe its just because he is really dead but he just dont especially care if hes dead or alive, death wont stop him.

Because thats a very important thing to understand with the Joker. Batman has no superpowers but the Joker does. His insanity. No really, its considered a superpower, in the alternate universe where everyone lose their powers the Joker become normal. The Joker can create a laughing gaz that kill humans despite the fact that Batman once analyzed it and didnt found out anything toxic or lethal in it because hes the Joker. The Joker has already proven that he can make anyone around him become utterly insane except Batman which is why hes so interested in Batman. The Joker isnt trying to kill Batman, just to make him insane. He already almost managed to in the Killing Joke where he actually made Batman laugh after killing Robin. Since I cant post comics, here is the closest things to that in the cartoons:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QPGqqLYSjg

But the most important things about the Joker (and the reason why I wasnt especially impressed by Heath Ledger acting) is: The Joker make you laugh. Heath didnt make me laugh but the real Joker can make you laugh while hes killing childrens or torturing commissioner Gordon.

Beside, hes actually the most succesfull criminal in the DC universe, he has killed over 10 000 peoples. And before you ask why nobody simply kill him instead of capturing him SOME PEOPLE DID! He just either killed them or they killed him and he came back a few minutes later to torture their whole family in front of them.

[bosssmiley]

Judge Dredd (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judge_Dredd) and his rogues gallery says you should all pipe down: The Angel Gang, Rico Dredd, Judge Cal (+the mighty Judge Fish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minor_characters_in_Judge_Dredd#Fish)), the Ape Gang, Satanus the Tyrannosaur, the Dark Judges (Fear, Fire, Mortis and Ssssssidney (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judge_Death)), Call-Me-Kenneth, Vitas Dance, Chopper...

[Myshlaevsky]

Judge Dredd (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judge_Dredd) and his rogues gallery says you should all pipe down: The Angel Gang, Rico Dredd, Judge Cal (+the mighty Judge Fish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minor_characters_in_Judge_Dredd#Fish)), the Ape Gang, Satanus the Tyrannosaur, the Dark Judges (Fear, Fire, Mortis and Ssssssidney (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judge_Death)), Call-Me-Kenneth, Vitas Dance, Chopper...

I grew up 2000AD, so I'm seconding this one.

[Xallace]

I'm way more Marvel than DC, but let's see how many Flash villains I remember:

Captain Cold, Mirror Master, the Trickster, Captain Boomerang, Captain Boomerang II, The Top, Cicada, Selvetrm. I think that's all I got. Honestly, all of DC comics I've read are big compilations (52, Infinite Crisis, Kingdom Come), Sandman, and the occasional Supergirl floppy (I'm really just hoping they'll cut her a break one of these days).

That said, I do want to read more Flash. I liked him from Justice League animated. And also I don't want to rewrite anything unless I know the source material.

I agree with X-Men having the coolest line-up, although there's definitely bias. Magneto makes up for every lame villain they've had.

[Dienekes]

actually, bossmiley the Judge is one of my favorite rogues gallery. I merely tried to point out what the most popular are.

To Witchslater and Haven, remember Bats is generally people's favorite hero. And Joker IS his greatest opponent. Not strongest, not even smartest, but the most unpredictable and is possibly the only character in the entire DC Universe that keeps everyone on their toes. Lex Luther's afraid of him, Superman's afraid of him, pretty much anyone who interacts with him is. They're afraid of the man, and he doesn't even have any real powers!

Now if you say he's only a clown who kills people, sure. That's what he is, but to make a truly amazing villain it has to be more of how he does it. Some of the best villains are based on truly idiotic concepts. Lex Luther? He got bald from Supes and blames him for his bald induced misery. Green Goblin? He gets some serum... so he dresses as a goblin... yeah...

The only truly interesting villain be these standards I would save solely for Magneto.

Joker is the continual thorn in Batman's side, and simply the most interesting. His plots can completely shock and disgust the reader just as easily as making them laugh. Very few villains can pull this off, and in the hands of a good writer there is no character better.

Also, listen to Mark Hamil's laughter. Listen to it. Imagine someone laughing like that as he's holding a knife to you. The man is freaking terrifying.

[Tirian]

Batman's rogues are massively overrated. Flash's rogues have some semblance of community and they have things they just don't do. Don't let Captain Cold catch you trying to snort cocaine off a mirror. Most of Batman's rogues are just full of neurosis.

What makes Batman's rivals interesting from a storyline perspective is the way their neuroses contrast with Batman's. Two Face is fixated on the balance between justice and vigilantism, Ra's al Ghul has a vision for solving the world's problems, The Scarecrow uses fear to intimidate his enemies, Penguin is a powerful socialite, and The Joker is a guy who had a rotten day a long time ago and created his own worldview to make sense of it all. The theme is that Batman's villains are pretty much what he would become if he didn't keep his act together. It's an interesting way to frame your stories, and it really works for me.

I don't really follow the Flash, but I sort of get the impression that his villains are supporting characters whose lives outside of fighting Flash are shown to a greater degree. That is also interesting. Still, I think that the Rogue's Gallery is like the JSA in that you only know that they are awesome because they tell you so three times an issue.

[AstralFire]

That's not quite the term, but I get where you're coming from.

To be fair, I don't follow Superman either. I can only stand him in small doses of Deus Ex Machina.

'cause Superman doesn't fight people who are on his level or anything. :smallsigh: Superman's not even a top-stringer in either universe, power-wise. He's up there, but he's not at the pinnacle of the capes and costumes in anything but respect and willpower.

Joker's terribly overrated; Mark Hamil's Joker is the only version of the character I've cared for. Out of the A-lister rogues, I much prefer R'as al-Ghul and Two Face for Batsy, while Darkseid is my favorite villain ever (I also prefer him to Lex Luthor.)

Flash pretty much has the best rogue's gallery in comics because they make the most sense and are able to provide a challenge for a character who is significantly more dangerous (when he wants to be) than Superman without being god level. They have 'adapted' best to the world in which comics exist. The more you are into comics and the more you come to see how weird their universe is on the long-view, I feel the more likely you are to appreciate Flash's comics.

- Superman can't boast that; as much as I love the guy in blue, most of his work is fighting the planet crushers.
- Batman can't boast that; frankly, as soon as you start examining Gotham City too closely, none of the reasons given really work to explain how Batman and his gallery makes sense within the wider world. Batman crossovers tend to be Batman crossing over into someone else's book, not the other way around, and that's for a reason. (I like Batman, but I've been voting for Gotham City to be flushed into an Elseworlds with no superbeings at JLA class.)

However, Flash's rogues all suck at early inspection because their quality comes from the consistency of good writing and actually making good use of the long history that comes with comics, rather than just retcon, retcon, retcon - and essentially, they're an upgrade over the type of world in which Spider-Man fights. So Spider-Man villains, which somehow manage to be less ridiculous (but hey, the Shocker IS more threatening-looking than Captain Boomerang) have a more prominent place for 'rogues that work together and aren't all homicidal maniacs that logically should have been shot the last time they were incarcerated.'

[The Dark Fiddler]

Because Flashes are often made by your average Joe, and they don't have to deal with harmful executive meddling, while at the same time, they-

Wait, wrong Flash. Never mind, :smallbiggrin:

[littlequietguy]

Did Flash fight captain boomerang or was that someone else? I remember reading a Cracked article about Captain Boomerang attaching explosives to his boomerangs. Fighting the flash. If you can't see a flaw in that strategy then consider yourself lucky and that you are saving a lot of money on brain acid.

[chiasaur11]

Judge Dredd (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judge_Dredd) and his rogues gallery says you should all pipe down: The Angel Gang, Rico Dredd, Judge Cal (+the mighty Judge Fish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minor_characters_in_Judge_Dredd#Fish)), the Ape Gang, Satanus the Tyrannosaur, the Dark Judges (Fear, Fire, Mortis and Ssssssidney (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judge_Death)), Call-Me-Kenneth, Vitas Dance, Chopper...

Yeah. I really need to read more Dredd.

Also, Nextwave's foes are awesome.

Sadly, Nextwave seldom leaves them alive for a second encounter.

[Zevox]

I'm not really a comics fan - outside of Sonic comics I read when I was a pre-teen kid, I've only read some recent Green Lantern comics - so my own opinion of these characters comes pretty much solely from cartoons and movies, but personally, I'll take Magneto and Sinestro over any other superhero villains any day.

Really, the villains listed in this thread as Flash-related have all just struck me as corny when I saw them. Seriously, Captain Boomerang? Captain Cold? Mirror Master? How do guys like that expect to do anything against a guy that can move faster than they can throw/fire their weapons? They seem like villains you'd throw at someone without actual super powers, like Green Arrow, or C-list Batman villains. Granted, I know next to nothing about them, since I've only really seen them in the Justice League cartoons, and they weren't exactly made a centerpiece (or even much of a threat) there, but they sure don't sound like the kind of bunch I'd nominate for anything resembling the title of "Best Villain" considering the other candidates that are out there, even if they're well-done as characters in the context of the Flash comics.

Edit: Also, this guy (http://superdickery.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=36&Itemid=53&limitstart=82) is one of the Flash's villains? Really?

Zevox

[Haven]

Well first, because hes the creepiest guy ever. You obviously havent read many Joker stories. And by the way, the Joker is just as smart as Batman, hes pretty much as strong as Batman and he actually win against Batman very often so I dont get why you are listing Batman strength when the Joker can also do all of this. Beside, hes chaos incarnate. Hes not a clown who like to kill, he can be the most gentle guy in the world for two seconds and then bite you throath off. Harley Quinn actually called Joker insanity a form of 'super sanity' where he simply totally change his personnality to fit the situation. And, since you asked, the main reason hes Batman nemesis is because most people see Batman as Order incarnate. Chaos incarnate and Order incarnate, see a pattern here?

How creepy is this guy? Well as Dienekes said: "When super-villains want to scare each other, they tell Joker stories." Everytimes DC villains team up, they dont let the Joker join them because hes very likely to utterly break their minds or torture them in the middle of their plans for no real reasons. There is also the fact that hes totally fearless, Scarecrow gaz has absolutely no effects on him. Also, simply trying to read his mind once make you totally insane. His mooks follow him because hes just as likely to shoot them in the face as to give them millions of dollars, he has already done both very often and they are desperate enough to take a 50/50 chance.

Beside, this is the guy who once snapped his own neck just to win an argument. And he got killed plenty of other times, once by getting shot in the back of the head. Some people think he come back because hes REALLY an avatar of chaos and therefore just take the body of another person if hes killed or maybe its just because he is really dead but he just dont especially care if hes dead or alive, death wont stop him.

Because thats a very important thing to understand with the Joker. Batman has no superpowers but the Joker does. His insanity. No really, its considered a superpower, in the alternate universe where everyone lose their powers the Joker become normal. The Joker can create a laughing gaz that kill humans despite the fact that Batman once analyzed it and didnt found out anything toxic or lethal in it because hes the Joker. The Joker has already proven that he can make anyone around him become utterly insane except Batman which is why hes so interested in Batman. The Joker isnt trying to kill Batman, just to make him insane. He already almost managed to in the Killing Joke where he actually made Batman laugh after killing Robin. Since I cant post comics, here is the closest things to that in the cartoons:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QPGqqLYSjg

But the most important things about the Joker (and the reason why I wasnt especially impressed by Heath Ledger acting) is: The Joker make you laugh. Heath didnt make me laugh but the real Joker can make you laugh while hes killing childrens or torturing commissioner Gordon.

Beside, hes actually the most succesfull criminal in the DC universe, he has killed over 10 000 peoples. And before you ask why nobody simply kill him instead of capturing him SOME PEOPLE DID! He just either killed them or they killed him and he came back a few minutes later to torture their whole family in front of them.

First off, thanks for assuming that the only possible way I can dislike a character is if I'm uninformed about them. That, that's just a fantastic way to start your argument.

(It's especially funny that after telling me that, you get your examples mixed up so badly--Joker crippled Batgirl in the Killing Joke; Batman certainly didn't laugh after Jason Todd died. And it was some random Arkham psychologist in Grant Morrison's "Arkham Asylum: A Serious House On Serious Earth" who said that about "super-sanity", which I don't think was something we were supposed to take seriously, given that this was the same guy who thought it was a good idea to train Two-Face onto a d6 so that he couldn't even make up his mind to go to the bathroom.)

Anyway, the thing about Joker stories is that his effectiveness is a function of nothing more and nothing less than the contrivance of the universe. Everyone in the DCU has to job to him in order for him to retain his effectiveness or creepiness. To me, "Emperor Joker" was just a gigantic lampshade hung over this fact by literally making him a reality warper.

Joker being as strong or as smart as Batman is possibly the best example of this. Batman trained his entire life to become what he is; Joker just fell in a bunch of chemicals. Likewise the fact that he can come back to life: Ra's Al'Ghul has his Lazarus Pits, Joker has, well, PLOT. To some extent it's impossible to separate a character's abilities from the plot, but I think a lot of Joker's victories are a "Spider-Man versus Firelord" deal.

Similarly, why does anyone even work with the Joker anymore? I think one of the things the Dark Knight did right (among the many, many contrivances it needed for the Joker's plans to work, my favorite being at the beginning when his bus just drives right out of the smoking hole in the bank wall and no one cares) was making one of his henchman (the one with the bomb in his stomach) have schizophrenia.

Anyway, I think Ra's Al'Ghul would be a better candidate for Batman's arch-nemesis. He has a legitimate reason to keep coming back from the dead, he has a justification for being a challenge to Batman's skill and intelligence (400 years of experience'll do that for you), and to me he represents a more interesting conflict than "Batman versus a serial killer". Ra's Al'Ghul's dreams are always Batman's on a much higher level. Batman dreams of getting rid of crime, Ra's Al'Ghul dreams of imposing his order on the entire world. Like that one episode of Justice League with the "Justice Lords".

It's a much better set-up than "Which one of us is the real crazy one? Is it the one who's a clown who likes to kill, or is it the guy who tries to save people and wears a costume to protect his identity and scare criminals and provide body-armor and be stealthy? And whose mental processes--memory, association, rigorous standards of logic--function objectively better than virtually anyone else's in the world? And who doesn't hallucinate or feel compelled to murder people for laughs? Hmm?!"

[Yulian]

Really, the villains listed in this thread as Flash-related have all just struck me as corny when I saw them. Seriously, Captain Boomerang? Captain Cold? Mirror Master? How do guys like that expect to do anything against a guy that can move faster than they can throw/fire their weapons?



That is exactly why the Rogues are so cool. They routinely fight Flashes, guys who are near the upper tier of DCU power, with freeze guns and boomerangs and make a damn good showing of it.

Against normal humans or lesser metas, they are nothing short of terrifying. Boomer was on the Suicide Squad when it went up against the Jihad, a stereotypically Middle Eastern metahuman terrorist group. They are now known as Onslaught, by the way.

Boomer went up against a member who could run at super-speed in 3 second bursts. Guy was called Jaculi, had exploding javelins, too. Captain Boomerang basically treated the guy like a joke, snapped his neck, and pitched him off a roof while making quips about fighting a real speedster.

Basically, imagine a squad of mini-Batmen, with a narrower gadget focus. That's the Rogues.

- Yulian

[Zevox]

That is exactly why the Rogues are so cool. They routinely fight Flashes, guys who are near the upper tier of DCU power, with freeze guns and boomerangs and make a damn good showing of it.

Against normal humans or lesser metas, they are nothing short of terrifying. Boomer was on the Suicide Squad when it went up against the Jihad, a stereotypically Middle Eastern metahuman terrorist group. They are now known as Onslaught, by the way.

Boomer went up against a member who could run at super-speed in 3 second bursts. Guy was called Jaculi, had exploding javelins, too. Captain Boomerang basically treated the guy like a joke, snapped his neck, and pitched him off a roof while making quips about fighting a real speedster.
Is there any actual explanation for why they're capable of doing things which should be logically impossible, or is it just "they're just that awesome?"


Basically, imagine a squad of mini-Batmen, with a narrower gadget focus. That's the Rogues.
So then the fact that I don't like Batman means I'd probably dislike them?

Zevox

[AstralFire]

If the reason that you don't like Batman is that he's too perfect (one of my criticisms of his comic form), then no - they're at reasonable levels.

[kpenguin]

The concepts of the Rogues are quite lame, being relics of the campy silver-age. Their awesomeness comes from good characterization and writing.

[WitchSlayer]

Pfft, Lex Luthor isn't afraid of the JOKER. Lex Luthor isn't afraid of ANYTHING, HE'S LEX LUTHOR!

Also, Professor Pyg, a recently made villain, is infinitely more creepy than the Joker. Joker is probably a better villain overall, but Pyg is just... shudder.

And the Spectre not being able to kill Joker because he's just that crazy is... ERRNGH.

And finally: My favorite villain probably Darkseid. Why?
Because Darkseid IS

[Zevox]

If the reason that you don't like Batman is that he's too perfect (one of my criticisms of his comic form), then no - they're at reasonable levels.
Would depend upon the meaning of "he's too perfect" there. If you mean something like morally, no, not my concern. If you mean that he's become exaggeratedly skilled* ("Batman could beat any superhero with a little prep time" being an argument I've seen too many times online which makes no sense to me whatsoever), then yes, that would be a concern of mine. Though honestly, his whole character concept just doesn't appeal to me to begin with anyway, so that's just part of why I'm not a fan.

(Incidentally, just to reiterate from my first post in this thread, I don't read virtually any comics - I only recently started reading some Green Lantern comics*, and have never read any other superhero comics - so Batman's comic form in particular only matters to me insofar as it has crossed over into his cartoon appearances.)

*Slightly off-topic comment I feel like making related to the two things that I placed asterisks by:
One of my favorite moments of one of the GL comics I've read, Green Lantern: Rebirth, was GL John Stewart telling Batman off when he was going on about how Hal Jordan couldn't be trusted.

"You've always had a thing against him, haven't you? And I think I finally see why. Hal is the one person in this world that didn't buy you're selling. Hal was the man without fear. And what is 'The Batman' when you're not afraid of him? Just a man."

Pure awesome.
Zevox

[kpenguin]

Then again, knowing fear is supposedly why Kyle will surpass Hal.

[chiasaur11]

Pfft, Lex Luthor isn't afraid of the JOKER. Lex Luthor isn't afraid of ANYTHING, HE'S LEX LUTHOR!

Also, Professor Pyg, a recently made villain, is infinitely more creepy than the Joker. Joker is probably a better villain overall, but Pyg is just... shudder.

And the Spectre not being able to kill Joker because he's just that crazy is... ERRNGH.

And finally: My favorite villain probably Darkseid. Why?
Because Darkseid IS

I still prefer Doom.

He has style, and time travel while still not being too unbeatable or too stupid.

[WitchSlayer]

Doom is pretty awesome. It annoys me when fanboys make him out to be some morally superior unbeatable guy though.

[Zevox]

Then again, knowing fear is supposedly why Kyle will surpass Hal.
Okay, I'll have to take your word for it - must have been in a comic not included in the batch I've acquired. But anyway, my point was just that I loved John telling Batman off, in that particular manner, and to his face.

Zevox

[chiasaur11]

Doom is pretty awesome. It annoys me when fanboys make him out to be some morally superior unbeatable guy though.

Yeah. Same here.

I mean, normally the whole RICHARDS thing nulls that out, with Doom knowing (in his heart of hearts) that there is a guy who is, on some level, better than him at something.

It gives him limits, rips his evil little heart up, and gives him human frailty.

Also, I'm a bit of a Richards fan, so it warms my heart to see the #1 villain in the MU having him as his only "Real" challenge.

[WitchSlayer]

Speaking of Richards, he seems to be written pretty badly pretty often, to the point where Doom IS the better man.
The new Fantastic 4 writer is pretty awesome though.

[kpenguin]

The sad thing is that Doom is really more of a renaissance man than Reed will ever be. Reed is somewhat smarter and the better scientist, but Doom is superior in so many more aspects.

But Doom will never accept that and leave it be. As long as RICHAAAARDS is better than him at something, he'll never have his rest.

The envy is what makes him such an interesting character, along with all the other qualities.

[chiasaur11]

Speaking of Richards, he seems to be written pretty badly pretty often, to the point where Doom IS the better man.
The new Fantastic 4 writer is pretty awesome though.

Not in Byrne, Waid, Simonson, or Kirby.

Or McDuffie.

Or Hickman, from what I've read.

So, not when the FF is done even half way decently.

And Kpenguin:

Yes indeed.

[lisiecki]

Okay, I'll have to take your word for it - must have been in a comic not included in the batch I've acquired. But anyway, my point was just that I loved John telling Batman off, in that particular manner, and to his face.

Zevox

Its a one off line from an issue of Morrisons JLA.

Thats one of my issues with comic book threads in general is people take statements from characters to be Gospel fact.

the joker has SAID that batman is one bad day away from being the same as the joker.

That dosnt make it real, true, or reasonable


Dienekes said: "When super-villains want to scare each other, they tell Joker stories."

Was that before or after James Jessie said it?

[FoE]

What, you mean like Rainbow Raider? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_Raider) :smalltongue:

I can name three other Flash villains off the top of my head: Gorilla Grodd, Captain Boomerang and Mirror Master. (Oh, and good old Rainbow Raider. Mustn't forget him.) Most of these guys are pretty one-trick ponies.

Superman's rogues gallery puts the Flash to shame. Batman's rogues gallery puts the Flash to shame.

Wonder Woman's rogues gallery kinda sucks, though.

[kpenguin]

You can't name Captain Cold? For shame, FoE, for shame.

EDIT: Nice try. I saw what you had before the edit.:smalltongue:

[FoE]

You can't name Captain Cold? For shame, FoE, for shame.

*Hangs head*

Weirdly enough, I used to have an old issue of Suicide Squad that had him and Captain Boomerang in the cast. They fought some crazy super-powered terrorists and Captain Cold took down some pyrokinetic dude in a subway.

The dialogue from the battle was incredibly cheesy. "You know what's cold? Hell is cold! And brother, I'm Captain Cold!"

*Snicker*

[WitchSlayer]

Batman has Crazy Quilt AND Kiteman, but a good writer can make either of them great and compelling villains, just like Calenderman.

[Teron]

Edit: Also, this guy (http://superdickery.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=36&Itemid=53&limitstart=82) is one of the Flash's villains? Really?

Zevox
Is there a point where pathetic wraps back around to cool? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSQ-h_2WGkw)


I still prefer Doom.

He has style, and time travel while still not being too unbeatable or too stupid.
How can a guy with time travel not be either unbeatable or stupid?

[Starscream]

How can a guy with time travel not be either unbeatable or stupid?

I haven't read FF in a while, but I believe that his time machines lets you go back and view the past but not alter it. So he can use it to acquire any information he needs, but can't step on a bug and change the outcome of World War 2.

Edit:
But now that I search for it, I can't find any reference to it working this way. One site says that it actually sends you to a parallel universe that approximates that point in time, which may be a fancier way of saying the same thing. Any FF fans know the deal?

[Zevox]

Hm, so, while looking up some of these guys on Wikipedia, I came across references to a pretty recent "Top 100 Comic Book Villains (http://comics.ign.com/top-100-villains/index.html)" list done by IGN. Not sure how they put it together - public vote or just the opinions of their employees, or whatever else - but just for the hell of it, I figured I'd list how they ranked the villains that have been mentioned in this thread:

*Spoilered for great length*
Captain Boomerang - Not on the list.
The Trickster - Not on the list.
Namor - Not on the list.
Black Hand - Not on the list.
The Manhunters - Not on the list.
Skrulls - Not on the list.
Blastaar - Not on the list.
Mole Man - Not on the list.
Rainbow Raider - Not on the list.
Shadow King - Not on the list.
Stryfe - Not on the list.
Bastion - Not on the list.
All the "Judge Dredd" villains mention by bosssmiley - Not on the list.
Cicada - Not on the list.
The Top - Not on the list.
Savitar - Not on the list.
Professor Pyg - Not on the list.
Crazy Quilt - Not on the list.
Kite Man - Not on the list.
Calendar Man - Not on the list.

Annihilus - 94
Parallax - 92
Carnage - 90
Mirror Master - 79
Mxyzptlk - 76
Sandman - 72
Mr. Freeze - 67
Poison Ivy - 64
The Riddler - 59
Scarecrow - 58
Cassandra Nova - 50
Mongul - 41
The Sentinels - 38
Reverse Flash/Zoom - 37
Gorilla Grodd - 35
Hank Henshaw/Cyborg Superman - 33
Professor Zoom - 31
Mr. Sinister - 29
Captain Cold - 27
Bizzaro - 25
Apocalypse - 24
Venom - 22
Braniac - 17
Sinestro - 15
Green Goblin (Norman Osborn) - 13
Two Face - 12
Kingpin - 10
Dark Phoenix - 9
Ra's al Ghul - 7
Darkseid - 6
Galactus - 5
Lex Luthor - 4
Doctor Doom - 3
Joker - 2
Magneto - 1

(Damn, there are a lot more villains mentioned in this thread than I thought when I set out to make this list... posters here even managed to hit on all but 1 of their top 10.)

Whew, well, now that that's done. Comparably, not a great showing by Flash Villains. Captain Cold is highest ranked at #27 (though to my surprise, he is significantly higher ranked than the more famous yet similar Mr. Freeze, who only made #67), two versions of "Zoom"/"The Reverse-Flash" made it into the 30s, and Gorilla Grodd is in that range as well. Mirror Master is fairly low on the list at 79, and the rest didn't make the list at all. Though I must admit, that's still better than I was expecting, personally - for Captain Cold to get ranked higher than a guy like Mister Sinister or popular Batman villains like Scarecrow and Poison Ivy is pretty impressive.

Zevox

[chiasaur11]

I haven't read FF in a while, but I believe that his time machines lets you go back and view the past but not alter it. So he can use it to acquire any information he needs, but can't step on a bug and change the outcome of World War 2.

Edit:
But now that I search for it, I can't find any reference to it working this way. One site says that it actually sends you to a parallel universe that approximates that point in time, which may be a fancier way of saying the same thing. Any FF fans know the deal?

Well, it works like that normally, from what I recall, IE Marvel 2 in 1 #50. But anything beyond that, you have timecops to worry about, cosmic entities who don't look kindly on you mucking about, and the fact RICHARDS! stole it.

CURSE YOU RICHARDS!

[Prime32]

I recall an issue where Reed went back in time and shot a young Doom.

...alright, he missed on purpose so he could get a hair sample.

[chiasaur11]

I recall an issue where Reed went back in time and shot a young Doom.

...alright, he missed on purpose so he could get a hair sample.

Well, I'd assume so.

Richards isn't the murderous type.

The bad parenting type, often. Murderous, no.

[Closet_Skeleton]

The bad parenting type, often. Murderous, no.

That's more a case of stupidity than malice.

[doliest]

Personally I don't get the people claiming supes has a good rogues gallery; most of his villains are jokes, Darksied is really a DC villain more than a superman villain. Flash's rogues are usually atleast interesting people; few of them have grandiose plans, they're mostly people who want to make a buck which makes them actually quite refreshing.

Also skeleton: They're talking about Richard, not Susan.:smallamused:

[chiasaur11]

That's more a case of stupidity than malice.

Ayup.

Reed Richard: Science genius, social moron.

[kpenguin]

Reed Richard: Science genius, social moron.

Yeah. This is why I call BS on Reed's psychohistory explanation of why he supported pro-Registration during Civil War. Reed doesn't understand people. Its one of his schticks.

[chiasaur11]

Yeah. This is why I call BS on Reed's psychohistory explanation of why he supported pro-Registration during Civil War. Reed doesn't understand people. Its one of his schticks.

Hey!

Future Doom said he was right!

Are you doubting Future Doom?

(More seriously: Yeah. But Dwayne Mcduffie did the best he could with a bad hand, from what I saw. So... yeah.)

[kpenguin]

Unless Future Doom is President Doom of the year 2099, yes.:smalltongue:

[Yulian]

Doom is pretty awesome. It annoys me when fanboys make him out to be some morally superior unbeatable guy though.

Doom is not a moral man. He's not even particularly honourable a lot of the time. He's regal, but that's different. If he thought, somehow, eating a baby would prove he was smarter than Reed he'd do it in a heartbeat.



Superman's rogues gallery puts the Flash to shame. Batman's rogues gallery puts the Flash to shame.


Superman has one truly memorable villain. Yes, it's Lex, and that goes a long way, but look at the rest of the lineup.

Silver Banshee?
Mongul?
Parasite?
Metallo?
Toyman?
The Prankster?

Okay, I'll grant you Zod, but that is purely because Terrance Stamp was beyond awesome in the role. Frankly, outside of Lex and maaaaybe one or two others, he has the lamest bunch of jackholes, some of which don't even have any powers or particular genius and they're set up against Superman.

It's like a fixed fight out there.

I will also hold Zoom up as a good example of the "evil opposite villain" done right. In the right hands, Zoom is a very unsettling character.


That's more a case of stupidity than malice.

"What could be more important than your family?"
"Ssssssssssscience?"

SO apt.

- Yulian

[kpenguin]

Doom is not a moral man. He's not even particularly honourable a lot of the time. He's regal, but that's different. If he thought, somehow, eating a baby would prove he was smarter than Reed he'd do it in a heartbeat.

So... you agree with Mark Waid on Doom? Hmmm...

[FoE]

Superman has one truly memorable villain. Yes, it's Lex, and that goes a long way, but look at the rest of the lineup.

You forgot:

Darkseid
Brainiac
Hank Henshaw
Doomsday
Bizarro

And what's wrong with Toyman? The animated version was awesome.


"What could be more important than your family?"
"Ssssssssssscience?"

:smallamused:

[Dervag]

Superman has one truly memorable villain. Yes, it's Lex, and that goes a long way, but look at the rest of the lineup... What about Darkseid? Does he not count?

[kpenguin]

S:TAS pretty much made a lot of villains awesome, in much the same way B:TAS saved Mr. Freeze and brought us Harley.

[Starscream]

Superman has one truly memorable villain. Yes, it's Lex, and that goes a long way, but look at the rest of the lineup.

Silver Banshee?
Mongul?
Parasite?
Metallo?
Toyman?
The Prankster?


You forgot:

Darkseid
Brainiac
Hank Henshaw
Doomsday
Bizarro

And you both forgot Mxyzptlk.:smallwink:

The fact that I didn't have to look up the spelling of his name is a sure sign that I need help.:smalleek:

[kpenguin]

A true mark of Dini and Timm's awesomeness in STAS was making Myxy so damn hilarious. Seriously, Gilbert Gottfried in that role was a stroke of genius.

[Yulian]

What about Darkseid? Does he not count?

Darkseid doesn't "belong" to Superman by any means. He was a Fourth World New Gods villain and he menaces whoever happens to be in his way.

I don't know about Henshaw. Maybe he's just played out to me, but he never seemed to take his place a real, top-tier Superman menace no matter what they've done with him.

I will cop to Brainiac, but only because Corey Burton is beyond awesome. Most other incarnations are somewhat silly.

Doomsday doesn't do anything for me. There's no "there" there.

Bizarro is essentially a joke character. He has occasionally been played serious, which is, admittedly, terrifying.

- Yulian

[chiasaur11]

"What could be more important than your family?"
"Ssssssssssscience?"

- Yulian

Yup.

Of course, Reed's not all bad on that front, as usually when it's presented in those terms his response tends to be roughly

"Oh CRAP! Family! Right!"

After two or three minutes at the experiment table.

It's just if left to his own devices he doesn't even notice it's a choice. And when he does try to deal with this kind of thing, it's usually assumed he'll make it worse. Even on the rare occasion he won't.

[Starscream]

A true mark of Dini and Timm's awesomeness in STAS was making Myxy so damn hilarious. Seriously, Gilbert Gottfried in that role was a stroke of genius.

Don't forget his main squeeze, Gsptlsnz.

I...I didn't have to look up that name either. There must be something wrong with me.

I really planned never to go back to Arkham Asylum. But I have to go back there. Because I might need help. I... I might actually be crazy.
A Riddler quote. Proof that even lame villains can have moments of awesome.

[kpenguin]

BTAS Riddler was made of awesome as well.

Although, they didn't manage to save the Terrible Trio. I don't think anything can save the Terrible Trio.

[chiasaur11]

BTAS Riddler was made of awesome as well.

Although, they didn't manage to save the Terrible Trio. I don't think anything can save the Terrible Trio.

Brave and the Bold didn't save the terrible trio.

And Brave and the Bold made them ninjas.

[kpenguin]

Yeah, that bunch are terrible villains.

[Revlid]

Zoom < Joker
Okay, Joker wins here, but only because he's king of villains - Zoom is pretty damn fine villain, from his creepy motivation to his interestingly twisted powers to his excellent visual effect - the constant shifting in and out of sync, like a scratched CD, is very cool.

Captain Cold = Mr. Freeze
Both have stupid origins and worse names, but the good Captain is totally badass and surprisingly human, not to mention living by a Code and running a damn tight ship. The only thing bringing Freeze up to his level is his frankly brilliant depiction in the DCAU.

Trickster > Riddler
Riddler has potential, he does, and his DCAU version was good enough (the Timmverse comics were much better) - but the Trickster is seven shades of great. He's scammed everyone, from the Flash to the Rogues to the Government to the Devil himself, but, like the rest of Flash's villains, he stays sympathetic, in this case through being .
Also, he has some very fun gadgetry.

Shade > Anyone
This guy, although originally a Starman villain, is just fantastic. He's awesome, both visually and in attitude. Bow to the gentleman darkness manipulator!
Neron: "You'll rue this day!"
Shade: "Please. If I had a rue for every time I'd heard that, I'd own Paris."

Piper > Scarecrow
Scarecrow (aka Failcrow) like many Batman villains has great potential but poor execution - his last great showing was in Begins, where he was tased by The Scrappy.
Piper, by contrast, has a great costume, cool power set, and is a very well fleshed-out character. His HeelFaceTurn was perfectly executed, and works very well with the interesting relationship the Rogues have with their hero.

Mirror Master = Mad Hatter
Both have fairly loosely defined power sets, and have gone through a number of iterations. Ultimately, Hatter has stronger visuals, but is also rather pathetic. MM, on the other hand, has an awful costume but makes a much stronger showing in terms of competence and characterisation.

Heat Wave > Firefly
Both are pyromaniac techies. Firefly can fly, but has a worse costume, no character, and has been dead for ages (it says something when your best portrayal was on The Batman). Heat Wave is (ironically) a very cool character, who also has a better costume.

Gorilla Grodd > Killer Croc
Okay, Gorilla Grodd is pretty stupid.
But he's still a helluva lot better than Killer Croc.

Boomerang
Read Suicide Squad. Then tell me he sucks. He's awesome.

Ragdoll
Eh, his son in Secret Six is much better.

Weather Wizard

Double-Down
I know next to nothing about this guy, but I love his visuals, I really do.

[Starscream]

Neron: "You'll rue this day!"
Shade: "Please. If I had a rue for every time I'd heard that, I'd own Paris."

That is AWESOME. I want it on a shirt. What book is that from?!

Incidentally, I love Neron simply because of the way he keeps getting creatively owned by other characters, hero and villain alike. Trickster, Etrigan, Captain Marvel, Elongated Man.

Oh, and my favorite, Santa Claus. Alright, so that was a story being told by Plastic Man to a little kid. But it was still awesome!

[Vic_Sage]

Zoom < Joker
Okay, Joker wins here, but only because he's king of villains - Zoom is pretty damn fine villain, from his creepy motivation to his interestingly twisted powers to his excellent visual effect - the constant shifting in and out of sync, like a scratched CD, is very cool.
Dissagree but thats just me.

And how could you not mention Abra Kadraba man, he is pure awesome.

[FoE]

And what about Catwoman, Two-Face, Poison Ivy, The Penguin, Bane, Scarface and Ra's Al Ghul? What are the Flash equivalents of those bad guys?

[Yulian]

So... you agree with Mark Waid on Doom? Hmmm...

You know, I do, because a truly honourable man would be capable of admitting, even once, even just to himself, that someone is better than him at something instead of all the crap Doom has pulled over the years up to and including kidnapping children.


Zoom < Joker

Captain Cold = Mr. Freeze

<<snip>>

Shade > Anyone

Piper > Scarecrow

Mirror Master = Mad Hatter

Heat Wave > Firefly

Gorilla Grodd > Killer Croc

Boomerang

Ragdoll

<<snip>>


The visual and dialogue effects they give Zoom really do a lot to make him seem dangerous, like a bomb, as if you wouldn't want to get too close to him or touch him, because he might twitch funny and it would be like brushing up against a moving bullet train.

I am a big Captain Cold fan. He runs the Rogues like a guildmaster. I love his rules, like when he beat the crap out of Mirror Master (McCulloch) for using too much coke, or how he dealt with the man who murdered his sister.

For the record, he froze just his skin and threw him off a building.

Shade is just...his character development, his history. I was so disappointed they didn't get into that in the DCAU. The guy has more than a century of experience under his jaunty black top hat.

Scarecrow is...a friend described him as being obsessed with "fear as fetishism". He's not about subtle terror, existential dread, or soul-grinding, inexorable horror, he's some feeb who jumps out and yells "BOO!" dressed in a costume that's normally ridiculous even by Batman villain standards.

Mirror Master is a man with depth. I mean, he had a bad drug habit, teamed up with Animal Man, and doesn't let a rather unsettling array of gadgets affect his very down-to-earth personality.

Heat Wave comes off with more depth as well, the Rogues' Revenge mini had Cold basically explain that he's using a costume and gear to cover up a genuine sickness. He's also refreshingly professional for a pyromaniac supervillain. He can rein it in when he really has to. He was also nice enough to kill Cold's father for him.

I like Grodd, I'll admit it, even outside the DCAU. He's such a ridiculous Silver Age holdover and yet somehow, he still works in a modern context and can come off as menacing.

R.I.P. Boomer...oh wait...Blackest Night. Poor Owen.

Ragdoll...I will never, ever, ever comprehend why the Silver Age writers wanted to keep putting guys like super-contortionists up against powerhouses like it was somehow a fair fight.

- Yulian

[kpenguin]

You know, I do, because a truly honourable man would be capable of admitting, even once, even just to himself, that someone is better than him at something instead of all the crap Doom has pulled over the years up to and including kidnapping children.

I wouldn't say Doom is inherently honorable, per sea, but he acts honorable because he thinks that someone like him should be honorable. He's not an inherently virtuous or moral man, just one who likes to act that way to stroke his ego sometimes and he'll abandon that when the mood suits him.

I don't think he's the baby-eating complete monster Waid makes him out to be, though.

[Phase]

A lot of this comes down to how the villains are handled and written. Depending on the writer, Mr. Freeze can be anywhere from a guy in a cold suit who feels like stealing crap to the chillingly tragic depiction in the DCAU. Likewise the Scarecrow can be 'some feeb who jumps out and yells "BOO!"' or a pants-wettingly terrifying monster.

I'm just saying that a lot of these characters could be really terrific, but their handling can make them crap.

Of course, the best villain ever is no doubt Johnny Witts:
http://www.shortpacked.com/comics/20090818johnnywitts.png

[Yulian]

I wouldn't say Doom is inherently honorable, per sea, but he acts honorable because he thinks that someone like him should be honorable. He's not an inherently virtuous or moral man, just one who likes to act that way to stroke his ego sometimes and he'll abandon that when the mood suits him.

I don't think he's the baby-eating complete monster Waid makes him out to be, though.

I dunno, that whole "sent Valeria to hell" thing...

Yes, I know, but author aside, I could absolutely still see him doing it just to get that leg up. He wouldn't be proud of it, but he'd do it, because I do perceive him as a man who will take any and all advantage if it suits his purposes.

I still have to say, without his fear gas, Scarecrow just never seems that frightening. He's been all gimmick and no substance for quite a while.

- Yulian

[chiasaur11]

A lot of this comes down to how the villains are handled and written. Depending on the writer, Mr. Freeze can be anywhere from a guy in a cold suit who feels like stealing crap to the chillingly tragic depiction in the DCAU. Likewise the Scarecrow can be 'some feeb who jumps out and yells "BOO!"' or a pants-wettingly terrifying monster.

I'm just saying that a lot of these characters could be really terrific, but their handling can make them crap.

Of course, the best villain ever is no doubt Johnny Witts:
http://www.shortpacked.com/comics/20090818johnnywitts.png

I see your point.

[Berserk Monk]

I was reading Rogues War tonight, and I couldn't answer the most fundamental question, "Why does the Flash have such great villains?" Why the Flash and not Batman, who arguably has some great villains himself. What makes them iconic and memorable and, dare I say, likable and admirable?

I think Batman's got the best villains.

[Bariko]

I've got a weird affection for Murmur, I must say. I like his psychosis and drastic efforts to overcome it. He's a surgeon, and since Infinite Crisis began, has been linked to Hush, the Riddler, Secret Society of Supervillains, and a few more if I remember right. I just think he has the makings of an excellent villain with a bit of re-imagining and a few changes.

Magenta is a pretty good character, and Cicada was also cool enough, though didn't really strike a chord with me. ((Obviously I've been reading through my Blood Will Run trade))

[Vic_Sage]

Just because, heres why you don't **** with Cold or the Rogues. And heres the set-up, the idiot Chillbane here killed Colds sister the Golden Glider.


http://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx246/haketh2/1252646212387.jpg

http://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx246/haketh2/1252646389655.jpg

http://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx246/haketh2/1252646446291.jpg

[kpenguin]

That gave me... the shivers

[Revlid]

That gave me... the shivers

...Are you trying to get yourself frozen?

[charl]

That was cold, man. Ice cold.


Had to.

[Avilan the Grey]

So... you agree with Mark Waid on Doom? Hmmm...

Doom is not moral, but he is usually honorable. In the old fashion dictatorial king way. Which means that if he have given you his word, he is good for it. Which also means he will not give you his word if he can get away with it.

If you can tap into that sense of pride, self importance and honor the right way, you can be sure he won't stab you in the back, or the front for that matter.