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Jergmo
2009-08-30, 01:20 PM
These are some of the ideas I've been working on for changes to class; please share your thoughts on them! :smallsmile: (Note: The changes to make prestige classes quicker to obtain are due to the fact that so many variant book PrC's can be taken after level 5. If you have ideas for classes I haven't mentioned, please share those as well.

Arcane Archer
Base Attack Bonus requirement lowered to +5, Elf or half-elf requirement removed.

Arcane Trickster
Spellcasting requirements lowered to at least one arcane spell of 2nd level.

Blackguard
Base Attack Bonus requirement lowered to +5.

Cleric
A cleric may choose between being a battle cleric or a full spellcaster. If a cleric chooses to become a full spellcaster, they gain the Spell Point pool (if applicable) of a sorcerer as well as a sorcerer's armor and weapon proficiencies and hit die progression. Battle clerics gain proficiency in their deity's favored weapon and clerics with the War domain gain proficiency with all martial weapons.

Druid
Druids may sacrifice the ability to gain an animal companion in favor of gaining one of the following domains: Plant, Animal, Earth, Fire, Water, Air, Weather.

Druids in animal form retain their base attributes and lose their physical racial attributes while in
animal form.

Duelist
Base Attack Bonus requirement reduced to +5.
Canny Defense: Remove the "per duelist class level" part.
Precise Strike: Changed to first level. +2d6 at level 3, +3d6 at level 5, +4d6 at level 7, and +5d6 at level 9.

Dwarven Defender
Base Attack Bonus requirement reduced to +5.

Loremaster
Reduce Knowledge rank requirements to 8 and the metamagic or item creation feat requirements to two.

Monks
Body Manipulation: At 8th level, the monk further masters his physique and gains the ability to boost his physical statistics, gaining a +2 bonus to Str, Dex, and Con once per day for a number of rounds equal to 3+ wisdom modifier.
Body Control (Ex): At third level, +2 bonus on saving throws against spells and effects from the school of Transmutation, since his studies and introspection give him insights into and better control over his body.
At 5th level, the monk gains the ability to remove fatigue or reduce exhaustion to fatigue 1/day.

Rangers
Ranger level for determining animal companion is level -3 rather than 1/2 level.

Shadowdancer
Lowered required ranks in Hide to 8. Dismissing a shadow does not incur an experience penalty. Shadow Illusion can be used at will. A shadowdancer's shadow companion starts with +2 HD.

Sorcerers
At first level, Sorcerers gain Eschew Materials as a bonus feat.
Add Diplomacy, Intimidate and Sense Motive to Class Skills List.
A sorcerer can choose to learn any number of new arcane spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list in place of sorcerer spells he already knows, effectively exchanging them. All new spells learned in this way must be of the same level as the ones they replace. To do so, they must enter a state of meditation lasting eight hours without inerruption, succeeding on a Concentration check equal to 15 + highest spell level exchanged.
Innate Arcana (Ex): Sorcerers may their Charisma modifier rather than Intelligence for Knowledge(Arcana) and Spellcraft.
Force of Personality (Ex): Sorcerers may add their Charisma modifier to Will saves instead of their Wisdom.
Improved Eschew Materials (Su): Starting at 5th level, the sorcerer can cast any sorcerer spell that has a material component or focus worth 100 gp or less without needing that component or focus.

Wizards
Specialist wizards do not ban schools; instead, spells from penalized schools have a cost equal to one spell level higher. 9th level spells for penalized schools cost 24 points. (if applicable)

Foryn Gilnith
2009-08-30, 01:26 PM
Sorcerers are overpowered. This might not be true, but it was my first reaction; and it would take arguing to convince me.


Sorcerers use their Charisma modifier rather than Intelligence for Knowledge(Arcana) and Spellcraft checks whenever his Charisma modifier is higher than his Intelligence modifier.

"Sorcerers may use their Charisma modifier rather than their Intelligence modifier for Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft checks". "May" is a good word - it shortens descriptions considerably.

Since there's already a Force of Personality feat, why not just say that sorcerers get Force of Personality and Eschew Materials as bonus feats at fifth level?

Sorcerer's last ability is granted at fifth level. How convenient - now prestige-classed sorcerers get all these new benefits, and sorcerers have no incentive to stay in-class (especially since these new bonus feats give them more slots to qualify for prestige classes).

More whining...

Wizard gets a boost. Wonderful. Now there's even less disincentive to simply be a diviner and ban Illusion or something for your extra one spell per day.

What does the Battle Cleric lose in exchange for a nice weapon proficiency? What does the caster cleric gain that's so monumentally awesome in exchange for armor proficiencies?

Jergmo
2009-08-30, 01:30 PM
Sorcerers are overpowered. This might not be true, but it was my first reaction; and it would take arguing to convince me.


"Sorcerers may use their Charisma modifier rather than their Intelligence modifier for Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft checks". "May" is a good word - it shortens descriptions considerably.

Since there's already a Force of Personality feat, why not just say that sorcerers get Force of Personality and Eschew Materials as bonus feats at fifth level?

Sorcerer's last ability is granted at fifth level. How convenient - now prestige-classed sorcerers get all these new benefits, and sorcerers have no incentive to stay in-class (especially since these new bonus feats give them more slots to qualify for prestige classes).

1) Where the heck is this Force of Personality feat?
2) Whooptie-doo, you can cast Identify for free. That 100 gp was straining your wealth so much.
3) Sorcerers have never had an incentive to stay in-class, they never will, and ignoring up to 100 gp in material costs at a higher level would not make it worthwhile to take more levels in sorcerer than putting them in a prestige class.
4) The using Cha rather than Int/Wis is more for flavor than anything.
5) Eschew Materials is insignificant, seeing as most people don't even keep track of material components that don't even have a price, and there are no 1 gp material components. It's more for flavor than anything. They aren't receiving any "bonus feat slots".
6) Complaining about clerics receiving proficiency in a martial weapon?
7) On second thought, I guess the full caster cleric should have the spells per day of a cleric since they don't have nearly as much offensive capabilities as a wizard.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-08-30, 01:35 PM
I'm glad you didn't respond back too snippily. I expected the worst after the way I worded that post. :smallsmile:

You don't know about the feat Force of Personality, yet you somehow thought of the same name for the exact same effect? Weird. Complete Adventurer.

I pointed out the Charisma/intelligence thing as a way to write the same effect shorter.

Improved Eschew Materials isn't important; you're right. The fact that you thought my post referred to it was sort of humorous. I'm talking about the Sorcerer's ability to access any set of spells, ever, without having to take any effort to track them down, or have any consideration for whether or not these spells would benefit their earlier-level selves. The breadth of the utility spells they can now access blows the Wizard out of the water. 8 hours of uninterrupted meditation can be had as soon as your PCs get any meaningful downtime.

I am complaining about clerics getting an extra martial weapon, when they are already CoDzilla. I am complaining more about the two paths you have offered. One path is core cleric, plus more. Another path loses all meaningful proficiencies. What sort of choice is that?

When I said "frees up feat slots", I mostly meant Force of Personality.

PS: New class skills now make a one-level dip in Mindbender real easy. Sorcerer 5/Mindbender 1/Any other PrC that requires 3rd-level casting. Gets all the sorcerer abilities, plus 100' telepathy, and loses nothing. You need to take 4 ranks in each of 3 class skills (trivial), be able to cast Charm Person (which, if you hate enchantment, can just be retrained out on the weekend), and have CL 5.

Jergmo
2009-08-30, 01:39 PM
I don't see why it's strange that I would come up with the name Force of Personality. Also, you said "the sorcerer's last ability" (which you mentioned is gained at level 5), and the last sorcerer ability was Improved Eschew Materials.

Also, there is such a thing as "wandering monsters". Only bad DM's let players just sit and twiddle their thumbs for eight hours with no consequences.

Also, I would appreciate some feedback besides typical complaints about arcane and divine casters.

Also, as for Mindbender, if I recall correctly, first level gets you the telepathy - and nothing else. 100 ft. telepathy is not worth losing a caster level. And if being able to cast Charm Person is a requirement, then you wouldn't be able to change it out.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-08-30, 01:43 PM
I don't see why it's strange that I would come up with the name Force of Personality. Also, you said "the sorcerer's last ability" (which you mentioned is gained at level 5), and the last sorcerer ability was Improved Eschew Materials.

Also, there is such a thing as "wandering monsters". Only bad DM's let players just sit and twiddle their thumbs for eight hours with no consequences.

In the middle of a town? In the middle of a metropolis? In the middle of a Rope Trick, or your own house? I mentioned down time for a reason, as I was discussing utility spells.

I mentioned the sorcerer's last ability while talking about the disincentive to stay; not at the beginning where "overpowered" was mentioned.

PS:
That's because those are the only complaints I have. You beefed up the DMG prestige classes (good), turned the Ranger's animal companion into a reasonable progression as the Paladin's Turn Undead, and gave the monk some more abilities. The Fighter might need a bit of work, but people get along fine with it.

Mindbender 1 doesn't make you lose any spells. Good point about the prerequisites, but it's still Charm Person. Trivial to acquire.

Jergmo
2009-08-30, 01:45 PM
In the middle of a town? In the middle of a metropolis? In the middle of a Rope Trick, or your own house? I mentioned down time for a reason, as I was discussing utility spells.

I mentioned the sorcerer's last ability while talking about the disincentive to stay; not at the beginning where "overpowered" was mentioned.

So the party is just going to sit around for 8 hours at every point the sorcerer asks them to so he can relearn spells because he didn't choose good enough spells to be useful in the long run? The meditation doesn't replace sleep.

Edit: And if they leave him by himself while they go shopping, he could get attacked by a moose or something!

Foryn Gilnith
2009-08-30, 01:49 PM
Or perhaps the sorceror did choose good enough spells to function in the long run, but wants to make them better? Changing spells mid-adventure is not the problem I'm worried about, though. This new process allows sorcerers to stock up on a variety of combat spells for adventuring and self-defense, and then just get any divination, magic item prerequisite spell, or long-duration (days/level) spell on the equivalent of a weekend (8 hours free, since you're off work and have lots of gold)

PS: Random moose encounters is what Rope Trick is for.
PPS: To re-address your concern that I'm only whining about arcane/divine casters, and specifically the sorcerer; that's because the sorcerer's automatic retrain mechanic is the biggest change you made.

Jergmo
2009-08-30, 01:55 PM
Er, also, a factor that might need to be kept in mind is that the changes I'm using have the Spell Point system in effect. Wizards and clerics can cast spontaneously too.

Edit: As for being able to select any spell, maybe they should have to make a Knowledge(Arcana) check to identify various spells, with uncommon spells having much higher DC's?

Foryn Gilnith
2009-08-30, 02:02 PM
D'oh. When you said (if applicable) I assumed that you were keeping the Spell Point system in mind, not using it for everything. I'll have to go over and read that, then...

So it's sort of like psionics, then; except much more flexible? Still, my complaint remains. You have the breadth of the cleric (automatic access to all utility spells on spell list) combined with the massive breadth of the sorcerer/wizard spell list. I'm not quite so sure that a mere 8 hours/retrain is good enough.

To offer my first piece of actual constructive criticism for the day, I'd suggest buffing the Concentration check so that it never becomes trivial (the DC is 15+(level+1)/2, whereas your modifier is level+4 or so before magic items. That would work, except for aforementioned magic items.)

EDIT: Knowledge (arcana) works too. It also ties nicely into the fact that one of the class features buffs that skill. Maybe Spellcraft might be more appropriate.

Jergmo
2009-08-30, 02:10 PM
D'oh. When you said (if applicable) I assumed that you were keeping the Spell Point system in mind, not using it for everything. I'll have to go over and read that, then...

So it's sort of like psionics, then; except much more flexible? Still, my complaint remains. You have the breadth of the cleric (automatic access to all utility spells on spell list) combined with the massive breadth of the sorcerer/wizard spell list. I'm not quite so sure that a mere 8 hours/retrain is good enough.

To offer my first piece of actual constructive criticism for the day, I'd suggest buffing the Concentration check so that it never becomes trivial (the DC is 15+(level+1)/2, whereas your modifier is level+4 or so before magic items. That would work, except for aforementioned magic items.)

EDIT: Knowledge (arcana) works too. It also ties nicely into the fact that one of the class features buffs that skill. Maybe Spellcraft might be more appropriate.

I thought of Spellcraft, but then I thought about it being more about identifying spells that are being manifested, while knowledge is...well, knowledge of the spells existing. And Spell Points used to be crazy back when it was first used, but since then the Spell Points available to sorcerers and wizards have been cut by at least 25% or so to make up for having so much versatility, and they also have to pay extra spell points to increase die damage. An ECL 9 magic missile costs 9 points, for example.

Also: Don't psionics get more bang for their extra points by increasing the DC to resist as well as damage? Sorcerers/wizards don't get that.

Faleldir
2009-08-30, 02:30 PM
The problem with the core prestige classes, IMHO, isn't the prerequisites, it's the class features. Gotta keep up with the power creep!

Arcane Archer: Add a 7/10 spellcasting progression.

Duelist: Increase bonus from Dodge (+1 AC/2 levels), allow class features in light armor, replace Grace with something less redundant.

Dwarven Defender: Increase bonus from Dodge (+1 AC/2 levels) and Toughness (+3 HP/level), allow movement at half speed during Defensive Stance.

Jergmo
2009-08-30, 03:11 PM
The problem with the core prestige classes, IMHO, isn't the prerequisites, it's the class features. Gotta keep up with the power creep!

Arcane Archer: Add a 7/10 spellcasting progression.

Duelist: Increase bonus from Dodge (+1 AC/2 levels), allow class features in light armor, replace Grace with something less redundant.

Dwarven Defender: Increase bonus from Dodge (+1 AC/2 levels) and Toughness (+3 HP/level), allow movement at half speed during Defensive Stance.

Thanks for the suggestion for Arcane Archer, I figure Duelist is okay because I'm using a variant that adds a dodge AC bonus dependent on level when you're unarmored and not using a shield, and I'm not entirely sure about Dwarven Defender being able to move during defensive stance; it's actually not that much of a PC PrC so much as it is a PrC for the elite defenders of a dwarven community that blocks the way through a defensive corridor and says "You shall not pass!"

Actually, I'm not sure about 7/10 progression; 1/2 might be better. It still lets them get a few better spells to imbue/toss around, and at 10th level Arcane Archer, they've got free +5 arrows at level 16, plus the other special arrows.

woodenbandman
2009-08-30, 03:28 PM
Free +5 arrows only costs 1 3rd level spell slot. Not worth a class feature at all, hardly. If it were like the Soulknife or Soulbow's weapon enhancement features, it'd be pretty awesome.

Jergmo
2009-08-30, 04:03 PM
Free +5 arrows only costs 1 3rd level spell slot. Not worth a class feature at all, hardly. If it were like the Soulknife or Soulbow's weapon enhancement features, it'd be pretty awesome.

Fair enough, though I am looking at this from the perspective of running a lower-level low-magic campaign. I probably should have mentioned that...the +5 arrows would require a CL of 20, if I'm not reading Magic Weapon, Greater wrong.

Eldariel
2009-08-30, 04:09 PM
I rewrote Arcane Archer here:
Arcane Archer Redux (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19515174/Arcane_Archer_Redux?post_id=331614090#331614090)

The new boards fuxx0red the table, obviously, but the rewrite is viewable. Basically, as written, a straight Eldritch Knight isn't strictly better (Greater Magic Weapon on your bow = +5 arrows all the time) anymore. The old Arcane Archer only had one worthwhile ability in Imbue Arrow, which is admittedly handy, so I built upon that and reworked Enhance Arrow to make it worthwhile. I think it came out pretty nicely.

Normal version is killed by the daily limitations on the mediocre abilities, and the vast variety of different weak standard actions it gets. 6/10 casting is also much better than 5/10. 5/10 just doesn't work; not a single 5/10 PrC in the game is playable. 6/10 gives you some nice break points and the ability to toss some insane stuff at level 10; Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) is a perfect example of 6/10 in action and indeed the baseline for the Arcane Archer rebuild above.


I also like how the suggested rework synergizes with Ranger/Wizard at least as well as with Fighter/Wizard. You don't need Ranger-abilities to take it, but it has great synergies there so it's what I consider an ideal PrC - doesn't force any entry and offers varying benefits depending on how you enter.

Jergmo
2009-08-30, 04:26 PM
I like some of the changes for Arcane Archer, I think I'mma have it so it requires Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus, and Craft Magic Arms and Armor, though. Also, sudden idea for Eldritch Knight: Give them armored spellcasting like a Warmage. (light at 1st, medium at 8th) However, it feels like Blackguards need a little more love...

Kumori
2009-09-30, 06:29 PM
I don't know if you're settled on the Sorcerer's spell swap, but I think it might be better to up the DC based on the total number of spells being swapped. Maybe DC = 10 + highest spell level + 1 per spell beyond the first? This would encourage players to not switch too many spells as failure would mean 8 hours of wasted effort.

deuxhero
2009-09-30, 06:34 PM
The blackguard doesn't need the BAB requirment reduced, it needs the hide requirement removed.

ericgrau
2009-09-30, 08:13 PM
It seems like a small boost to all of those classes. Expect minor power creep. Not noticeable but certainly there.

Except sorcerer. That's a crazy boost to his will saves. Like, a +10 eventually. You better believe I'd dump wis harder than most clases dump cha, get a high con for fort and HP, and maybe a high dex if I could afford it. So he'd mostly be vulnerable to reflex spells.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-01, 02:45 AM
Eldritch Knight?

It's just caster progression with good fort instead of will, and BaB. Except that level 1 gets a feat instead of progression. D6 hit die.

It's not much good for someone primarily melee, due to the level 3 spell requirement...and if you pick up the proficiencies via a level of fighter or something, you end up two spellcasting levels down.

Would it be terrible to add a bonus feat or two later in it's progression? Or even space out the three feats at say, levels 4,7, and 10, and include full caster progression at level one?

ericgrau
2009-10-01, 04:19 AM
Maybe give EK free still spell without the level adjustment?

Kumori
2009-10-02, 04:58 AM
Maybe give EK free still spell without the level adjustment?

I vote this!