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rezplz
2009-08-30, 05:02 PM
So I know I've read somewhere before that a rogue/caster can sneak attack with a touch or a ray spell. But now that I'm looking for it, I can't seem to find where it is to read the exact wording. If someone could quote where it says this, or tells me what page of what book to find it in, I'd appreciate it.

Edit: I always forget to add in that this is for 3.5

lsfreak
2009-08-30, 05:08 PM
Complete Arcane, first pages of the Spells chapter.

Keld Denar
2009-08-30, 05:22 PM
The exact section is called Weaponlike Spells. Pretty much any spell that does damage and has an attack roll. It even works on spells like Enervation (damage is converted to negative energy damage, rather than added as negative levels) but not on spells like Ray of Enfeeblement (which just asigns a penalty, doesn't actually deal damage).

rezplz
2009-08-30, 05:25 PM
Okay, thanks guys. And I was actually curious about the ray of enfeeblement. Good to see that they had the common sense to not apply sneak attack to that though.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-08-30, 09:40 PM
Okay, thanks guys. And I was actually curious about the ray of enfeeblement. Good to see that they had the common sense to not apply sneak attack to that though.

Why not? You can do it with Touch of Idiocy, or worse, Shivering Touch. Granted, it doesn't do *stat* damage, merely negative energy damage

TheCountAlucard
2009-08-30, 10:06 PM
Why not? You can do it with Touch of Idiocy, or worse, Shivering Touch. Granted, it doesn't do *stat* damage, merely negative energy damageIt's like Keld said. Ray of Enfeeblement doesn't do damage, ability or otherwise; it just assigns a penalty. Does doom deal damage? No, it assigns a penalty.

Melamoto
2009-08-30, 10:21 PM
On a related note, the Spellwarp Sniper PrC from Complete Scoundrel, while not being highly effective mechanically, is a rogue-ray caster hybrid, and gets bonus SA damage with rays, and later can SA from 60' with rays, along with converting 5th level or lower area spells into rays, which is pretty sweet since the enemies get no saves against them (The normal reflex save doesn't apply)

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-31, 12:14 AM
Having just checked, I can safely say that you're wrong, the Spellwarp Sniper is indeed awesome mechanically. +5 spellcasting and +2d6 SA over 5 levels is decent, 1/day Sudden Empower is nice, free bonus feats are good on someone who is by definition feat-starved, but the 1st level ability is what shines. There are several spells with "Reflex Partial" instead of "Reflex Half", and removing the save from those gives you an RTA for Blindness or similar. No-save just lose is always nice.

Keld Denar
2009-08-31, 01:01 AM
Frost Breath and Greater Thunderclap (and of course, Wings of Flurry if you are a sorcerer) are all great spells to warp, making them RTA disables with no chance to save against them.

Person_Man
2009-08-31, 09:35 AM
As others have said, yes it works.

But keep in mind, you can't make a full attack with a spell. So if your goal is to deal damage with touch attacks, buy a Wand of Flame Blade or whatnot (there's half a dozen similar spells) and smack away. (Note, DMs often consider this cheating, as you'll probably only miss on a natural 1. Use this tactic only for the most important fights). If your goal is to use awesome ray spells, then just get access to higher level spells. They're probably more effective then some Rogue/Wizard multiclass. If you want an abusive combination of both, then you can use Assassin's Stance (Tome of Battle) to get access to Unseen Seer/Spellwarp Sniper/Arcane Trickster.

sonofzeal
2009-08-31, 11:30 AM
Having just checked, I can safely say that you're wrong, the Spellwarp Sniper is indeed awesome mechanically. +5 spellcasting and +2d6 SA over 5 levels is decent, 1/day Sudden Empower is nice, free bonus feats are good on someone who is by definition feat-starved, but the 1st level ability is what shines. There are several spells with "Reflex Partial" instead of "Reflex Half", and removing the save from those gives you an RTA for Blindness or similar. No-save just lose is always nice.
There was considerable debate about this in the PrC Tier Project (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107618). I believe the end result was that there really aren't enough spells that become awesome that way for the class to really dominate, but it's still a good class and certainly one to consider for Rogue/Wizard types.

Jack Zander
2009-08-31, 12:24 PM
As others have said, yes it works.

But keep in mind, you can't make a full attack with a spell. So if your goal is to deal damage with touch attacks, buy a Wand of Flame Blade or whatnot (there's half a dozen similar spells) and smack away. (Note, DMs often consider this cheating, as you'll probably only miss on a natural 1. Use this tactic only for the most important fights). If your goal is to use awesome ray spells, then just get access to higher level spells. They're probably more effective then some Rogue/Wizard multiclass. If you want an abusive combination of both, then you can use Assassin's Stance (Tome of Battle) to get access to Unseen Seer/Spellwarp Sniper/Arcane Trickster.

Doesn't chill touch let you full attack after the first round?

Person_Man
2009-08-31, 01:02 PM
Doesn't chill touch let you full attack after the first round?

The language is a bit ambiguous. Chill Touch is a Standard Action to cast, and then you make a melee touch attack. "You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level." It doesn't state whether or not the touch attack is a Standard Action after the first round.

Other methods of making a touch attack include Flame Blade (core), Fire Dagger, Spectral Weapon, Wraith Strike, (all in Spell Compendium and other splat books), Master Thrower (Comp Warrior), and various Tome of Battle shenanigans. A Brilliant Energy weapon (core) is also pretty close. And/or you can deny your enemy their Dex bonus (which fulfills the Sneak Attack requirement), and/or boost your To-Hit dozens of other ways (Knowledge Devotion, Greater Magic Weapon, Reduce Person, Compression, etc).

peacenlove
2009-08-31, 01:13 PM
Why not? You can do it with Touch of Idiocy, or worse, Shivering Touch. Granted, it doesn't do *stat* damage, merely negative energy damage

Just asking as a [Cold] spell wouldn't shivering touch deal cold damage rather than negative energy on a sneak attack?


The language is a bit ambiguous. Chill Touch is a Standard Action to cast, and then you make a melee touch attack. "You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level." It doesn't state whether or not the touch attack is a Standard Action after the first round.


I personally let chill touch function on a full attack. Its not like its an overpowered spell :P

Curmudgeon
2009-08-31, 01:31 PM
TChill Touch is a Standard Action to cast, and then you make a melee touch attack. "You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level." It doesn't state whether or not the touch attack is a Standard Action after the first round.
Nor should it, since it isn't a standard action in the first round, either. You use up your standard action to cast the spell. The rules award a bonus attack for the limited purpose of attempting to deliver that spell, but that's certainly not another standard action. (Nor is it part of the same standard action use for casting the spell, since (a) the rules don't say so; and (b) you can take your normal move action for the round before making this attack. It's just a bonus attack, much like that awarded by the Improved Trip feat.)

Once you're done with the casting round and its special rules for touch spells, you're in the regular realm of normal combat actions, which include iterative attacks. You should be able to Chill Touch as many times as you can attack.

Jack Zander
2009-08-31, 02:13 PM
Nor should it, since it isn't a standard action in the first round, either. You use up your standard action to cast the spell. The rules award a bonus attack for the limited purpose of attempting to deliver that spell, but that's certainly not another standard action. (Nor is it part of the same standard action use for casting the spell, since (a) the rules don't say so; and (b) you can take your normal move action for the round before making this attack. It's just a bonus attack, much like that awarded by the Improved Trip feat.)

Once you're done with the casting round and its special rules for touch spells, you're in the regular realm of normal combat actions, which include iterative attacks. You should be able to Chill Touch as many times as you can attack.

But you can deliever a touch attack on the same round you cast a touch spell


Touch
You must touch a creature or object to affect it. A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit. Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch as many willing targets as you can reach as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell.

Bolded for emphasis.

Melamoto
2009-08-31, 02:29 PM
Ah, my memory tricked me. I thought it was 3/5 Casting progression

Curmudgeon
2009-08-31, 02:43 PM
But you can deliever a touch attack on the same round you cast a touch spell
Yes, you can. Doesn't mean that attack is part of the standard action.

Bolded for emphasis.
You've bolded the part about touching willing subjects, which you do as part of casting the spell.

It should be pretty obvious that making an attack doesn't use the willing subject rules.

Jack Zander
2009-08-31, 03:01 PM
So you have to spend a round casting the spell, and then another round delivering the spell? I don't think I've ever seen anyone play like that. Seems to nerf touch spells a lot (not that spells shouldn't be nerfed of course).

Foryn Gilnith
2009-08-31, 03:03 PM
Yes, you can. Doesn't mean that attack is part of the standard action.

Yes, you can make another attack on the same round. It's not part of the standard action, but is rather a non-action (or a free action) granted as a result of the standard action.

I'm not sure if this is correct, or really what difference it makes, but it's how I'm understanding Curmudgeon.

Curmudgeon
2009-08-31, 03:14 PM
Yes, you can make another attack on the same round. It's not part of the standard action, but is rather a non-action (or a free action) granted as a result of the standard action.

I'm not sure if this is correct, or really what difference it makes, but it's how I'm understanding Curmudgeon.
It's not a free action, because there are actual rules (regarding DM discretion, and readied actions) for those. And it's not characterized as "not an action", which is the specific language used for 5' adjustments. It's just described as an attack that you can make in that same round. Improved Trip uses similar language. I call both of these "bonus" attacks, as that doesn't seem to conflict with any rules language.

Fax Celestis
2009-08-31, 03:33 PM
Yes, you can. Doesn't mean that attack is part of the standard action.

You've bolded the part about touching willing subjects, which you do as part of casting the spell.

It should be pretty obvious that making an attack doesn't use the willing subject rules.

From here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040831a).


Touch Spells: The duration for a touch spell doesn't begin until the caster touches a subject and delivers the spell to a recipient. Attempting to touch a recipient requires a melee touch attack and that is part of the action used to cast the spell during the round when the spell is completed. If the recipient is willing to be touched, it's usually best to just assume the caster touches the recipient.

If the caster does not touch a recipient then (either because she doesn't try to or the melee touch attack fails), she must use an action (usually the attack or full attack action) to touch a recipient during a later round. This is called "holding the charge." A caster holding a charge is considered armed and can use an attack of opportunity to make a melee touch attack and deliver the spell.

Whenever the caster touches anything, the held charge is discharged, even if what the caster touches isn't a valid target for the spell (in that case, the spell is wasted). The charge also is lost (and wasted) if the caster casts another spell. Otherwise, a caster can hold a charge indefinitely. DMs should feel free to set some reasonable limit to how long a character can hold a charge, perhaps 1 hour or until the caster has to go to sleep (or trance in the case of elves).

A very few touch spells (water breathing, for example) can be partially discharged. If so, this will be mentioned in the spell's target entry and its descriptive text, or both.

As a full-round action you can touch up to six friends willing creatures, object that willing creatures hold, or objects just lying round by themselves), provided that all the recipients are within the caster's reach. (The caster can extend her reach a little by taking a 5-foot step during the process.) To use this option, you must first cast the spell and hold the charge. Because the recipients are willing, no melee touch attack is required. You must decide how to distribute the spell's effect before touching anything.

PinkysBrain
2009-08-31, 05:35 PM
Even better, you can cast the spell, move and then make the attack :

Touch Spells in Combat

Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.

Curmudgeon
2009-08-31, 07:08 PM
From here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040831a).
Yes, so Skip Williams (former FAQ author) got the rules confused sometimes. This is no surprise. And yet that confusion doesn't alter the actual rules. One or more willing touches (with no attack) is part of the act of casting a touch spell. Making a touch attack to deliver a touch spell uses a different mechanic, and is separate from the act of casting itself.

Let's consider just one consequence of Skip's confusion being RAW. If you're still in the act of casting the spell from when you begin until you deliver the touch attack in that round, a damaging AoO against you on your way to deliver that spell could make the casting fail retroactively. Wouldn't that be neat? :smalltongue:

Sophismata
2009-09-01, 01:18 AM
On the round you cast the spell, you (specifically) gain a bonus attack with the attack granted by the spell.

Ordinarily, a touch attack spell grants you one touch, and that is that. If you fail to hit with the bonus attack, you can make a normal attack (or full attack) in subsequent rounds to try again. You are armed for these attacks - the touch spell has effectively given you a new weapon.

If the touch does not, for some reason, dissipate upon a successful hit, well, that new weapon stays with you until exhausted. You can full attack with it, make AoO's with it, and so on.

This means that Chill Touch may make a single bonus attack in the round it was cast, and is treated like a new weapon afterwards, until it hits enough times to be discharged. If you are making a full attack, and use up all your charges mid-round, you may continue making unarmed attacks (and provoking AoO's, unless you have IUS), attacking with another attack (such as a dagger or longsword, assuming it was already drawn or you have Quickdraw), or you may simply stop attacking. You've still used a full round action, in either case.