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View Full Version : certain races with LA would you allow them?



Mystic Muse
2009-08-30, 05:10 PM
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Drow
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/C%C3%A6rel_Draconian_(DnD_Race)
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/satyr.htm

also yuanti pureblood. has an LA of +2

would you, as a DM, allow these races or tell the player to go get something else? if you would tell them to play something else do you know of any race with spell resistance of some sort? or do I just have to make my saves ridiculous?

DementedFellow
2009-08-30, 05:14 PM
If a player is willing to sacrifice levels to play a certain character, so long as it doesn't hurt the story you are telling, then I don't see a reason why you would disallow it.

jokey665
2009-08-30, 05:14 PM
I let my players play pretty much any race they want as long as it has less LA than the starting level of the party for that campaign. I just make sure I let them know they'll very likely be gimped compared to the rest of the party.

Ranos
2009-08-30, 05:15 PM
They're kind of bad, but as long as the group's not all full casters, your player should be able to keep up fine. I'd say allow them.

Edit : I missed the draconians. Can't you break those like dragonwrought kobolds ?

FMArthur
2009-08-30, 05:18 PM
I would certainly allow regular Drow, but I'd suggest they use the first level of the drow racial class at the end of DotU, or find the Lesser Drow in a Forgotten Realms book. It's just a bit too weak if you ask me. The advantage of giving them a freely-multiclassing racial-classed drow is that they can take it as far as they like if they really desperately want a couple drow features for LA+1 or 2 later.

IthilanorStPete
2009-08-30, 05:19 PM
I don't see why you would want to play as a Saytr - 5 RHD and 2 LA would totally gimp a character. The Draconians are, as I'd expect from a homebrew race, probably overpowered for only +2 LA. Drow should be fine.

Milskidasith
2009-08-30, 05:24 PM
Draconians are kind of all around good race; +4 to strength and constitution, -2 to dex, and +2 to Int and Charisma make them good at anything not ranged. Martial classes can benefit from the increased melee strength and HP (and skill points don't hurt), and it wouldn't hurt a Cleric to take this (especially in a higher level game), because with Zen Archery it's just got bonuses to everything.

Grumman
2009-08-30, 05:44 PM
Drow and satyrs, definitely. I'd even let them use the LA buyoff rules from UA.

Caerel Draconian, no. They're homebrew, and I don't trust that wiki to balance them properly.

The Glyphstone
2009-08-30, 05:52 PM
A good rule of thumb is as such: If it's found on D&DWiki, it's not balanced. End stop. Execeptions apply, but only for the purpose of proving the rule.

Eldariel
2009-08-30, 05:55 PM
As long as LA buyoff is allowed, I'd allow the classes though replacing negative levels with static penalties to all checks that get bought off instead of the actual LA. That allows starting with a level 1 party of adjusted characters (they just have...say -2 to all skill checks, saves, attacks and so on; all D20 rolls) and they aren't behind in HD nor HP.

Then, once your party reaches level 9, you can buy off the LA entirely like normal, and be behind by just couple of thousands of points of XP and get back up to speed soon enough.


In games with no such houserules (or gestalt, which handles LA quite a bit better), I wouldn't allow them unless the player has a REALLY good reason to try and be way weaker than the rest of the party. For example, if I had a party with one very skilled optimizer and two total newbies, I'd allow the optimizer to play an LAd race to weaken himself enough to match the other two.

Mystic Muse
2009-08-30, 06:01 PM
looks like I'm going to try to convince my GM to allow the drow.

GallóglachMaxim
2009-08-30, 06:04 PM
I usually start games at level three, just to get things moving, so an LA+1 or +2 race would be fine, except for unbalanced homebrew races (that I didn't make myself) and Drow (no Drow in my campaign world, I just don't like them). So the Satyr or Yuan-ti would be ok as long as they came with a good story justification, the other two you listed would be out.

Mystic Muse
2009-08-30, 08:32 PM
okay. so I have two last questions. A how much xp do I take away from my total amount in order to get the xp I need and B what would you name this character? I've narrowed it down to two options.

auvryvyrae (blood of the overseer)
pellanull (platinum tear)

yeah I know they sound weird. no comments about that. just tell me which one you think is better.(I chose Drow.)

Reinboom
2009-08-30, 08:43 PM
auvryvyrae
Because you would just be called by a short name ultimately anyways, and I like "Audry". :smalltongue:
For XP? I'm not sure exactly what you are referring to, other than assuming you are working with LA wrong.
LA replaces whole levels.
That is, you are Drow 2/Wizard 1 (or whatever). Just like dipping in to a class for 2 levels.
So, in order to gain a level, you are going up to level 4, then 5, etc.

You don't get skill points for those levels, your max skill rank doesn't increase, you don't get feats, you don't get HP for those levels, and so on. So yes, rather terrible.

Mystic Muse
2009-08-30, 08:45 PM
sorry. I didn't really know anything about level adjustment. thanks for that.

yeah I like auvryvyrae too.

Milskidasith
2009-08-30, 08:47 PM
There was a LA 5 race on the wiki that gave a +40 bonus to Wisdom. Pretty awesome!

Yeah, some people have no clue how things work. It didn't help that it also got some other bonuses and had bonus feats and skills as a human.

Mystic Muse
2009-08-30, 08:53 PM
I can see why the drow is kind of overpowered so I'm going to nerf it a bit. make there be a more realistic chance I get to play it.

jokey665
2009-08-30, 08:56 PM
Err, I don't think anybody has ever called drow "overpowered."

They're not very good.

Reinboom
2009-08-30, 08:58 PM
I can see why the drow is kind of overpowered so I'm going to nerf it a bit. make there be a more realistic chance I get to play it.

Uh...
Yeah, Drow are a bit going the opposite. Other than, maybe, the spell resistance they are quite.. underpowered.
You are throwing away two whole levels in order to play one.

Mystic Muse
2009-08-30, 08:59 PM
just kidding.

would they work as an LA 1 race? or would you have to nerf them in that case?

Milskidasith
2009-08-30, 09:01 PM
just kidding.

would they work as an LA 1 race? or would you have to nerf them in that case?

I doubt you were kidding. As +1, they probably work.

Kroy
2009-08-30, 09:02 PM
sorry. I didn't really know anything about level adjustment. thanks for that.

Errrrm..., didn't you make an entire thread about this, like, a few days ago?

Anyway, drow are weak for a LA +2 race, so it should be just fine.
Ditch the crappy SR and it should be a fine LA +1 race.

Mystic Muse
2009-08-30, 09:10 PM
I doubt you were kidding. As +1, they probably work.

you're not very trustworthy are you?

Olo Demonsbane
2009-08-30, 09:13 PM
Even with the SR they would probably be a good LA +1 Race.

Or you could play the Lesser Drow. I heartily recommend that one...

Siosilvar
2009-08-30, 09:14 PM
you're not very trustworthy are you?

This is the Internet.

Sarcasm does not translate well over it ["it" being the internet, for clarification.].

Milskidasith
2009-08-30, 09:15 PM
you're not very trustworthy are you?

I believe you mean very trusting, and no, I'm not. After saying "Guess I won't be playing the drow then" and then saying you needed to work to make them weaker, with no indication that you were kidding, and only saying you were kidding after people pointed out that drow are terrible, and the fact that your "kidding" wasn't funny, I have no reason to assume you weren't just trying to save face.

Here's the thing: You don't need to save face; not everybody is a CharOP wizard, and it's perfectly fine to make mistakes. Maybe you overvalued the SR, or maybe you thought +2 to two mental stats and a +2 to dex was just really good for a caster. It's perfectly reasonable to be unsure if something is good or bad.

Mystic Muse
2009-08-30, 09:21 PM
Errrrm..., didn't you make an entire thread about this, like, a few days ago?



apparently yeah. wow I can't believe I forgot about that.:smallredface:

Eldariel
2009-08-30, 09:24 PM
Even with the SR they would probably be a good LA +1 Race.

Or you could play the Lesser Drow. I heartily recommend that one...

I don't. Lesser Drow is pretty much High Elf (poor race; Con-penalty) with Light Blindness (so it's even worse) only getting Darkvision over Low-Light Vision in exchange; poor trade in the best of times unless you literally are playing an Underdark-ONLY campaign.

I suggest standard Drow at +1; it seems very fair. Honestly, what are you gonna do? Angrily wave your +2 Int and Cha at people? Gray Elf still makes better Wizard, Star Elf still makes better Sorcerer and the apparently-synergistic Ultimate Magus is made a poor choice simply since that would cost you ANOTHER level of casting.


But really, just replace the stupid "missing levels" with stock penalties on everything (hell, toss some at caster level and save DCs too - the baseline of the suggestion is behind Player's Guide to Faerun, but it suggests you'd get rid of penalties by taking levels - instead, LA buyoff works much better for them making the system Not Suck) and LA buyoff. Ta-da! Perfectly playable LAd races with everyone at the same HD! Inelegant, but functional.

Mystic Muse
2009-08-30, 09:28 PM
did I accidentally say somewhere I'm playing a caster? or are you all just assuming that since the race has a -2 con penalty?

truth is I'm playing a warblade. *has a feeling now would be a good time to run*

Milskidasith
2009-08-30, 09:28 PM
A drow warblade? You are joking this time, right?

If you want to play a drow warblade, just ask your DM to give you human abilities and LA, but still be a drow. Taking LA +2 to get penalties to your ability to be a warblade is... incompetent at best.

Mystic Muse
2009-08-30, 09:32 PM
A drow warblade? You are joking this time, right?


would you prefer the truth or a lie?

Eldariel
2009-08-30, 09:32 PM
did I accidentally say somewhere I'm playing a caster? or are you all just assuming that since the race has a -2 con penalty?

truth is I'm playing a warblade. *has a feeling now would be a good time to run*

No, I just analysed Drows' power based on natural classes/combinations you might pick if trying to maximize their power, and came back with the result that they aren't broken even then.

Drow Warblade is otherwise fine, but that Con penalty is going to suck for you. I suppose d12 HD is going to help you out somewhat, but still, you're a medium-armor frontliner with Con penalty. That said, Drow make fine Dexterous Warriors. Indeed, that's one of the archetypes LA punishes the least since you can make up for lacking levels with simply higher bonuses (not that Drow would really get that many).


But yeah, Drow Warblade with LA+1 sounds perfectly fair.

Mystic Muse
2009-08-30, 09:36 PM
would you suggest keeping or getting rid of their SR? it looks like it can screw me as much as it can help me but I've been looking for a way to make arcane classes less effective against me.

deuxhero
2009-08-30, 09:50 PM
I would not only allow LA races, but kill the pro-Tolkien plagiarizing tarifs on some of them, like the planetouched (possibly in exhange for their martial weapon proficincy) and Goliaths, because really, everyone just uses human/strong heart Hobbit Halfling, the higher abilities may encourage diversity .

Eldariel
2009-08-30, 09:55 PM
would you suggest keeping or getting rid of their SR? it looks like it can screw me as much as it can help me but I've been looking for a way to make arcane classes less effective against me.

Keep it. I mean, might as well take the only ability of any use for a Warblade the race has to offer. Sure, it'll suck when healing so heal out of combat by lowering your SR and try to become as self sufficient as possible to avoid the need for in-combat buffing and healing.

Pick up Healing Belt, some items that allow Enlarge (if going controllish direction), etc. and go to town. Alternatively, you can pick up Reactive Resistance [Drow of the Underdark], which allows you to lower your SR as an immediate action to receive beneficial effects. That makes it much easier already (though as a Warblade, your immediates have other uses too; you'll have to weight whether the option is worth a feat or not).

Mystic Muse
2009-08-30, 10:08 PM
now there's only one reason I can see the GM might not want me to be a drow.

we have three other elves in the party. four if you count my current half elf Paladin of freedom.

The Glyphstone
2009-08-30, 10:18 PM
Just be a Chaotic Good, surface-elf loving rebel struggling to shake off the evil reputation of his underground-dwelling kin. It's not a cliche or anything, not at all. I promise.:smallwink:

Mystic Muse
2009-08-30, 10:23 PM
actually the warblade is going to be a multiple personality neutral good, chaotic neutral,lawful evil character.

at least I'm going to TRY to make her like that. maybe just neutral good and chaotic neutral if I can't manage the evil part.

Kylarra
2009-08-30, 10:25 PM
actually the warblade is going to be a multiple personality neutral good, chaotic neutral,lawful evil character.

at least I'm going to TRY to make her like that. maybe just neutral good and chaotic neutral if I can't manage the evil part.

Might I suggest not giving your party reason to kill you? You're already trying to be a drow in a party of elves.

Mystic Muse
2009-08-30, 10:30 PM
okay. good point. just neutral good and chaotic or true neutral then?

Kylarra
2009-08-30, 10:33 PM
okay. good point. just neutral good and chaotic or true neutral then?I'd really avoid trying to do MPD in the first place, it's rather iffy when you can't rely on someone you don't have innate racial hatred for, let alone one you do...

FMArthur
2009-08-30, 10:34 PM
I suspect your multiple personality disorder is from the D&D wiki. If this is true, increase your LA by 1 or 2. :smallwink:

Mystic Muse
2009-08-30, 10:41 PM
I suspect your multiple personality disorder is from the D&D wiki. If this is true, increase your LA by 1 or 2. :smallwink:

I got the idea from it but it's a character concept and a character concept only. I'm getting no benefit from this other than a possibly interesting character and RP experience. why would I increase my LA by 1 or 2 for that? If anything would increase my La it would be this.

Your character is so good-looking and unintentionally charming that she becomes a stud and babe magnet.
Prerequisite: Charisma 18, female
Benefit: Every creature who interacts directly with this character and could be a viable target of a charm person spell must make a Will save (DC 20 + character's Charisma modifier, or be affected as if this character had cast charm person on them. Unlike charm person, however, this effect is permanent unless the character proves herself hostile to the enthralled creature.
Normal: You do not reduce women (although perhaps men) to naught but whimpering, swooning girlchildren, begging to be graced with your presence.
Special: Potential targets of this ability who witness you doing something appealing (read: heroic, or perhaps unintentionally suggestive), may take a -4 penalty on their saves, at the DM’s discretion. :smalltongue:


I have no intention of actually doing this and I realize it wouldn't change my LA. surprisingly this is an actual feat

FMArthur
2009-08-30, 10:45 PM
Bah, I've seen more powerful things than that on the D&D Wiki to be taken as FLAWS!

Mystic Muse
2009-08-30, 11:00 PM
yeah so have I. Sad isn't it?

Cieyrin
2009-08-30, 11:13 PM
My rule of thumb with LA and ECL is the max LA allowed in a game is based off of the formula LAx2+1=ECL, so no LA till the ECL is 3, when LA +1 races are feasible, ECL 5 for LA +2 and so on. This ensures, at least from my experiences using the rule, that characters aren't totally gimped upon entrance into play and avoids the 1 HD and LA +4 or something dumb like that. Plus, I also allow for LA buyoff, so, when those benefits balance eventually, the player doesn't regret later on those LA when the bonuses are miniscule in comparison to what their un-LAed compatriots are doing.

I have no particular issues with any of the listed races, though I agree with Glyph on D&D wiki and its inability to balance their material at all, so probably not the Draconian.

quick_comment
2009-08-30, 11:23 PM
I have no problems with players starting an ECL 16 game with a character that has 1 HD and 15 LA. They should just be aware that they are going to die very quickly.

Cieyrin
2009-08-30, 11:25 PM
I have no problems with players starting an ECL 16 game with a character that has 1 HD and 15 LA. They should just be aware that they are going to die very quickly.

Throwing that many templates onto a character probably definitely deserves to die a quick and horrible death. Then they can play something that isn't so suboptimal.

Mystic Muse
2009-08-30, 11:26 PM
out of curiosity what's the LA on a Balor?

Eldariel
2009-08-30, 11:26 PM
I have no problems with players starting an ECL 16 game with a character that has 1 HD and 15 LA. They should just be aware that they are going to die very quickly.

I have, 'cause that makes the 15 LA race unplayable. That's simple poor game design and as such, I find one should search for alternatives that enable playing the said race without being broken nor unplayable. Some variance in power is no problem; the system can take it. The extremes LA system generates are not bearable though.

quick_comment
2009-08-30, 11:27 PM
Throwing that many templates onto a character probably definitely deserves to die a quick and horrible death. Then they can play something that isn't so suboptimal.

Its a slight exageration. Still, I have no problem with high LAs. They often give neat abilities, but they mean the first time an enemy cleric gets off a blasphemy or dictum, the character is going to be in a world of hurt. To say nothing of the reduced hp, class abilities, etc.

Edit to Eldariel: Yeah, the LA system is a bit silly. Really, levels of LA in a monster class should just be smaller hit dice than normal, and not count for racial abilities.

Mystic Muse
2009-08-30, 11:54 PM
okay, my DM is a reasonable guy and he can be convinced. what would you do to convince a DM to change the LA of a drow to +1 instead?

Kylarra
2009-08-30, 11:55 PM
okay, my DM is a reasonable guy and he can be convinced. what would you do to convince a DM to change the LA of a drow to +1 instead?
"I'm playing a class that isn't going to take full advantage of my racial abilities and I'll probably end up dead"

quick_comment
2009-08-31, 12:02 AM
You play a lesser drow.

Mystic Muse
2009-08-31, 12:11 AM
You play a lesser drow.

"yeah I will when pigs fly.

*sees pigs fly by window*

you know I'd still rather not":smallbiggrin:

FatR
2009-08-31, 03:31 AM
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Drow
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/C%C3%A6rel_Draconian_(DnD_Race)
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/satyr.htm

also yuanti pureblood. has an LA of +2

would you, as a DM, allow these races or tell the player to go get something else?
No. I play hardball as a DM and allowing gimped characters would be sadism. To elaborate, there are maybe two-three race/template picks in 3.X that justify saddling your character with +1LA. +2LA or more generally cannot be justified and neither can be racial HD for almost any race. Cćrel Draconians are the closest to being worthwhile, but with +2LA they are still strictly worse thah a non-LA character (they are automatically unfit for casting classes; sacrificing 2 levels worth of feats and class abilities, as well as about 6-8 HPs for what amounts to +2 damage and +3 AC is not worth it, and can be downright suicidal at low levels; other abilities are meaningless or can be obtained without losing levels). Drow can be very barely justified at +1LA, particularly because SR harms them far more than it helps them, at +2LA they are hopelessly weak. Satyrs... they have alot of racial HD, therefore LA hurts them even worse than normal characters. The same goes for yuan-ti purebloods. Both are horribly, unplayably weak.

FatR
2009-08-31, 03:42 AM
okay, my DM is a reasonable guy and he can be convinced. what would you do to convince a DM to change the LA of a drow to +1 instead?
All the drow get over normal elves is Darkvision, +2 to Will saves, some skillpoints, and some very weak SLAs, maybe some bonuses for a martial class that benefits from high Intelligence or Charisma (your DM isn't insane enough to think that someone is going to play a LA-race caster, yes?). In return, they get one obvious weakness (light blindness) and one probable, but potentially very crippling weakness (SR, which stops friendly combat buffs more often than anything else, unless there are lots of mook spellcasters in the campaign, which is usually not the case). Even for +1LA they are rather weak.

kamikasei
2009-08-31, 03:48 AM
out of curiosity what's the LA on a Balor?

"-". Balors ain't for PCs.

Starshade
2009-08-31, 04:29 AM
Yes, yes and yes (exept the homebrew on the wiki, the whole page is blank, dont see its stats). Most of those races will make up for its advantages in some ways, by potentially being treated as a werido or pariah by large numbers of people, the satyr in a city would be wery weird looking only, id certainly allow Yuan ti and Drow, if the characters had good background stories.


out of curiosity what's the LA on a Balor?

Ummm, im not good at calculating that, but due to CR and hit dice, id guess you looks at a LA at 20 pluss 20 for its 20d8 hit dice. As a player character you start as a lvl 40 character without even taking one level of anything i think. Its a bit hard to calculate without experience in how the race works, but its too powerfull as a player character.

FatR
2009-08-31, 05:19 AM
out of curiosity what's the LA on a Balor?
To make it actually worth playing? Around +2, mostly because the ability to pick proper high-level character's equipment can give it a huge lot of benefits. (That, of course, assuming that epic spellcasting, infinite loops, Elemental Planes mining and some other spells, like Astral Projection, are banned, so CR still means anything.) Maybe one or two points more, if you get to fully customize it and switch some of its feats for something better.

Cieyrin
2009-08-31, 12:43 PM
Ummm, im not good at calculating that, but due to CR and hit dice, id guess you looks at a LA at 20 pluss 20 for its 20d8 hit dice. As a player character you start as a lvl 40 character without even taking one level of anything i think. Its a bit hard to calculate without experience in how the race works, but its too powerfull as a player character.

LA +20?!? You kidding me?!? A single Balor PC is nowhere near on par with a 40th level LA +0 PC. Just eye-balling it and taking into account that they have 20 levels of outsider (which is hardly bad. d8 HD, Full BAB, all good saves, Skill points 8+int,...I could go on and on), I'd probably place them somewhere between ECL 25 and 30 and that's still on the high side of things. It'd need a bit of playtesting to figure out the LA but Balor's are definitely not the province of non-epic play. The closest you'll get to one will be some application of Greater Planar Binding or Ally which is further tricked out with some PRC feature that extends the max hit dice on either spell, given they normally cap at 18 HD and Thaumaturgist doesn't increase the limit, which is a little lame, I think.