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lsfreak
2009-08-30, 06:44 PM
(I'm unsure of whether exactly this should be in homebrew or role-playing, as quick-fixes often find themselves in both. Just move this thread if RP is the wrong place).

Okay, so shields are sub-par as-is. Getting rid of animated and doubling the AC bonus for light and heavy shields is a standard fix. I was wondering about adding the ability to actually spend an immediate action to actually block damage based on an opposed roll.

I've tried it the last couple months using an opposed block roll (d20 + BAB + shield bonus) and come up with the following problems:
- An opposed block roll slows things down.
- Bucklers, light shields, and heavy shields aren't differentiated enough under this.
- I can't come up with a real balance for what the opposed roll should do. Lessening the attack by a % is clunky unless it's half or quarter. I'm also unsure on a range of successes. Beating the attack roll shouldn't flat-out block the whole attack, as you end up with "Thog power attack for 1d12+254!" suddenly being completely negated. Using the shield bonus as DR against the attack doesn't work out because it's not worth the action to do it.

Anyone else have any ideas for this kind of thing?

Spiryt
2009-08-30, 06:57 PM
Have read this post (http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=8346&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30) today (Stephen Hand).

And it seems quite relevant to me.

Shield should give some good bonuses to fight, imagining it as only protective thing (with maybe bashing) is a mistake, good shield is tool that allow you to create situations where you can't be hit, but where you can hit your enemy.

This also apllies in D&D - I don't think that just defensive bonus, no matter how high, will make shields good.

As an idea, bonuses to trip, bull rush, (especially opposing them) seem like a decent start.

lsfreak
2009-08-30, 07:06 PM
Yea, I was planning on making shields more offensive as well. My concern for this thread is the "use an action to block an attack," and how to make that work well. Planning on making shields similar to having an offhand weapon, and making offhand weapons more able to be used a bit like shields for parrying attacks.

Catch
2009-08-30, 07:11 PM
Easy fix.

You can, as a swift action, bash with your shield as part of an attack or full-attack, making the attack at your highest BAB and dealing standard bash damage + half strength.

For blocking, as an instant action you can raise your shield against an attack to negate a portion of the damage. You double your shield's bonus to AC for that attack and, in the event you are hit, reduce the damage by the shield's "block value," which ought to change based on your level.

Say, levels 1-5, your block value is equal to your shield bonus, 6-10 it's x2, 11-15 it's x3 and 16-20 it's x4. So, a 20th level Knight wielding a heavy shield could scrape off 16 damage from an attack (assuming you're doubling base shield bonuses), but couldn't bash with it during his next turn.

Make it a feat tree (or a Fighter class feature) if you're worried about abuse.

Ripped Shirt Kirk
2009-08-30, 07:14 PM
I think that shields should do as you say, but your shield must make a check against the enemys damage. If it fails, your shield breaks, you get knocked back, and take bludgeoning damage depending on your enemys strength, and your shields AC. Then again, I don't actually play DnD, (and never have) so all that I have learned is from OOTS, reading RPing games (on the boards) playing DnD games suchs as KotoR and BG, reading SCS diarys and other various minor experiences. Actually, thats alot.

ericgrau
2009-08-30, 07:16 PM
1. This has already been brought up many times before with a different fix each time. If you really want one you might as well search and look at all the options.

2. Against average CR = party level + 2 monsters you can already get a 60%-70% miss chance without a shield which means you boost that to 70%-95% with a shield. i.e., hit 30-40% and 5-30% respectively; the drop in incoming hits is already dramatic with a shield. With a tower shield you can block most spells, SLAs, etc. under certain circumstances. Or boost saves as well as AC, or etc., etc. The real problem might be people who don't know how to optimize AC, making their miss chance w/o one much lower than 60-70%. Yes, I've done this to death before, getting the AC to keep up with monsters is cheap & easy, and I do have tables with average monster stats. The trick is to spread AC bonuses across multiple sources to cut costs.

3. At high levels you get something like +9d6 damage from weapon enchantments, plus strength damage, etc. Thus the increased damage from THF is small by comparison, and causing a miss with that much damage makes the AB penalty from power attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87339) downright stupid at these levels. Unless you have cheese to insure an auto-hit or get more damage for free and thus circumvent the whole downside of PA, but that's a whole 'nother topic. Again, I do have an average monster stats table including AC, and auto-hit generally does not happen without cheese.

4. Yes, having both a shield and THF is best, i.e. getting an animated shield. So all you really have to do is ban the animated shield and you're done.

Frosty
2009-08-31, 02:45 AM
People Power Attack lots without using ways to negate the accuracy penalties? :smallconfused:

This is why Shock trooper was invented. Then you just stack miss chance.

NecroPaladin
2009-08-31, 03:29 AM
My Dungeon Master let my dual-wield-spec character use two spiked shields (and receive benefits from both) and it fixed this problem right up. :smallbiggrin:

sonofzeal
2009-08-31, 04:02 AM
Doubling the AC bonus seems to be just fine. As far as using it offensively, I'd consider letting it "bind" with an opposed attackroll, rendering the opponent flatfooted against the next attack. As long as you're getting multiple attacks in the round, and have a shield or appropriate weapon (mace, sickle, morningstar, hammer of any sort, axe of any sort, kukri, light pick, trident) in the offhand, you can choose to make one of your offhand attacks as a "bind". One set of opposed attack rolls later, and hey presto you've forced their guard wide open... or not, but you still get your other attacks.

bosssmiley
2009-08-31, 08:53 AM
Shield as ablative armour (http://trollsmyth.blogspot.com/2008/05/shields-shall-be-splintered.html). Y'all saw 13th Warrior, right?

S&S indeed (http://shamsgrog.blogspot.com/2009/07/s-indeed.html). Spear-and-shield as primary armament. Tussocks' comment on a fixed max AC bonus derived from armour and shield (so you get thematically appropriate Egyptians in linen armour carrying doors, vikings in chain w. round shields, and alwhited knights in plate only) is especially interesting.

daggaz
2009-08-31, 09:09 AM
Actually one of the main mechanics behind the suboptimality of shields is Power Attack, coupled with the fact that the best defense is a good offense.

Its been proven time and time again that you are better off killing the monsters quickly, and taking more hits, than staving them off for many rounds. Crits, spells, special abilities, all of it stacks up against the players the more rounds there are in a battle. Same goes for healing in versus out of battle.

So players focus on heavy damage over high AC. Now thanks to Power Attack and the way damage returns are computed, there is little reason to not use a two handed weapon; the math just outright favors the 2H damage bonus. And if you are two handing, there isn't much use for having a shield at all, is there? (and here is where animated shields come in.)

So yeah, you can ban animated shields, but it wont really stop meleers from going 2h'ed. Then you can just nerf PA in a way so that it doesn't favor one style over the other. (see Fax's d20 rebirth.) This has the benefits of returning the weapon choices to a more even playing field, tho 2handers still do a slightly higher damage output thanks to the bigger dice. But then you dont have that big tasty damage splash special for wielding A Really Big Sword. So its really give or take here.

You could also pimp a monsters to hit ratio, but while that would favor sword and board high ac builds, it kinda stomps all over Conan and his friends.. What I usually do in my games is just offer some tasty shields as loot, things that really make a player think..damn, maybe I should go one-handed instead of selling this thing. Cant do it too often tho, or they quickly start up Crazy Al's Crazy Shield Emporium (as well as all the offhanded comments about the frequency of crazy shields). More cool shield feats is probably the best compromise, here..

Person_Man
2009-08-31, 10:15 AM
I repost this like once a month, and update it. I should probably just make a Sword and Board handbook. Anywho, for the record, sword and board is currently a competitive. You just need to focus on defense and battlefield control instead of offense. I suggest playing a Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109429). Other tools you may wish to consider:

Active Shield Defense feat: When fighting defensively with a shield, you don't take the attack penalties on your AoO. Also, you still threaten when on Total Defense, which is useful when combined with Spinning Defense (Dungeon Compendium) which allows you to use Deflect Arrows to deflect any number of ranged attacks when wielding a polearm and using the Total Defense action. Essentially, you sacrifice your normal attack routine (depending on AoO) to gain a bonus to AC and be immune to ranged attacks. PHBII.

Agile Shield Fighter: This one feat essentially replaces 3 TWF feats when your are fighting with a shield and unarmed strike.

Divine Shield: Burn a turn/rebuke undead to add your Cha bonus to your shield bonus for a number of rounds. Amazing for defensive Paladins or Blackguards. Comp Warrior.

Empyreal armor or shield enhancement: You can transfer your enhancement bonus to AC to be a Sacred bonus to Saves. Although adding this to a +5 shield to get a bonus to your Saves would be twice as expensive as a Cloak of Resistance, it’s noteworthy in that the bonuses stack. (Put together, you spend 75,000ish gp for a +10 to all Saves, +5 of which you can swap into AC). A good high ECL choice. Book of Exalted Deeds pg 112.

Improved Shield Bash: When you perform a shield bash, you may still apply the shield’s shield bonus to your AC. PHB.

Improved Shield Bash: So your DM probably won’t allow this 3.0 feat, because the name was stolen by the core 3.5 feat. But I think he should it gives you a free, limited Bull Rush (5 ft, no follow up) whenever you make a shield bash. Combined with Karmic Strike and/or Robilar’s Gambit and/or Dungeoncrasher and/or Shock Trooper, and this feat can be ridiculously useful. Requires Power Attack. Defenders of Faith pg 20. (3.0 material)

Parrying Shield feat: You add your shield bonus to Touch AC. This is a huge weak point for many builds, which this feat fixes. Lords of Madness pg 181.

Shield Charge: When you attack with a shield as part of a Charge, you get a free Trip attack. Requires Improved Shield Bash. Complete Warrior pg 105.

Shield Charge: This is the 3.0 version. When you attack with a shield as part of a charge, you deal double damage. Requires Power Attack and Improved Shield Bash. Defenders of Faith pg 20. (3.0 material)

Shield of the Severed Hand: Once per round grants you a free Bull Rush whenever an enemy attacks you and misses. (Combine with Shock Trooper for awesomeness). Requires True Believer feat and 7 HD. Complete Divine pg 102 or Magic Item Compendium.

Shield Slam feat: When you charge an enemy and attack with your Shield, you get a free Trip attack (from the Shield Charge pre-req) and your enemy must Save or be Dazed for 1 round. A good mid level combo. A nice DM might let you use it with Pounce, making it far more effective. Otherwise it loses it’s usefulness by ECL 11+. Requires Shield Bash and Shield Charge. Complete Warrior pg 105.

Shield of Vigor: Spend Knight's challenges as a Swift Action to gain Fast Healing 5 for 3 rounds. MIC p. 196.

Shield Ward feat: Your shield bonus applies to touch attacks and checks to resist Bull Rush, Disarm, Grapple, Overrun, and Trip attempts. Unfortunately, it requires Shield Specialization (which sucks). But when combined with Divine Shield, you essentially become immune to special attacks. PHBII 82.

Tower Shield: You can hide behind this to gain total cover. This is especially useful if you have something to do with your actions that don't involve attacks, such as summoning, healing, buffing, Demoralize, etc. Note that Fighters get proficiency for free at first level.

It's also worth mentioning that if you get Pounce and Ride by Attack, you can use a lance and shield (using Shield Bash instead of TWF) for some very impressive damage.

Cieyrin
2009-08-31, 12:04 PM
I repost this like once a month, and update it. I should probably just make a Sword and Board handbook. Anywho, for the record, sword and board is currently a competitive. You just need to focus on defense and battlefield control instead of offense. I suggest playing a Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109429). Other tools you may wish to consider:

Active Shield Defense feat: When fighting defensively with a shield, you don't take the attack penalties on your AoO. Also, you still threaten when on Total Defense, which is useful when combined with Spinning Defense (Dungeon Compendium) which allows you to use Deflect Arrows to deflect any number of ranged attacks when wielding a polearm and using the Total Defense action. Essentially, you sacrifice your normal attack routine (depending on AoO) to gain a bonus to AC and be immune to ranged attacks. PHBII.

The only issue here is using a shield with a polearm, given polearms are typically 2-handers. So it's either Animated Shield or shenanigans with bucklers. I kinda prefer the Spinning Defense with a Long Staff, myself, since you get impenetrable Improved Uncanny Dodge with one while doing defensive actions.


Tower Shield: You can hide behind this to gain total cover. This is especially useful if you have something to do with your actions that don't involve attacks, such as summoning, healing, buffing, Demoralize, etc. Note that Fighters get proficiency for free at first level.

If you go by Races of the Stone for Fighters gaining a free Exotic Shield Proficiency (as Tower Shields are clearly the first incarnation of), I think it should be mentioned they could pick up an Extreme Shield for free instead, which is even closer to Tower Shield than the Heavy. You lose shield bashing with one like a tower but you also don't suffer the attack penalty for using one. Either that or a Gauntlet Shield, which gives you the best of both Light and Heavy Shields.

Finally, I support making a Sword and Board Handbook to go alongside your Knight Handbook. If anyone knows how to go about doing one, it's you.:smallbiggrin:

woodenbandman
2009-08-31, 12:43 PM
Honestly I never bother with my AC. I don't care if I have an AC of 10. Not only are there a trillion and a half ways to protect yourself better, but it's an uphill losing battle. You are paying quadratically for linear benefits. Twice, if you use a shield. This means that you are a grade A sucker.

Compare the cost of a +5 Full Plate and Tower Shield. Say that it gives you a + 22 bonus to AC. So your AC is 32. That means that, say, a Frost Worm will hit you 50% of the time. Let's also say that you're a Feral creature for the AC and you have a Ring of Prot +5 and a Amulet of Natural Armor + 5, so now your AC is 47. So you'll never be hit. But your damage is crap, so let's drop that shield and pick up a 2HW. Damage not crap any more, except that the barbarian has spent all his money on a +whatever valorous weapon and has pounce and all that junk and rage. You could probably do that too, which means shock trooper, which means back to being hit all the time.

So my point is, not only does your shield not even matter, because you'll either never be hit because you cheese the hell out of your AC and you're not damaging, or you're always hit because you have shock trooper, with very little middle ground. Your shield is the difference between an AC of 47, which is you won't be hit that often, but your damage is crap, and an AC of 38, meaning that (at the level you can afford this), you'll be hit, but you can hit more often as well.

I've clearly ignored one thing that AC is good for, which is negating power attack damage, but that's hardly an issue at all, because most monsters A don't have it, B don't have a way to make excellent use of it, or C are so good at using it that they can kill you with it regardless of your 47 AC, through methods that may or may not involve Wraithstrike. and 47 AC is extremely generous because it assumes you spent all your money putting it high up there and abuse one of the more broken of templates. better knock that down to 41.

Meanwhile, the wizard has blink and mirror image and junk.

There is room for a niche type of build that has a high AC, which is really only effective at low levels when AC is cheap (you can have a + 12 for only 1600), but it gets stupidly hard from there.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-08-31, 01:08 PM
I have a character in an Evil game who's an AC specialist. And can fly. It's wonderful, since he hasn't had a scratch yet while we've already 1 fatality and another near-death.

Unwitting Pawn
2009-08-31, 02:55 PM
Anyone else have any ideas for this kind of thing?

Sorry this prob won't be of help if you are stuck with your current system, but...have you tried GURPS?

Admittedly not the "quickest" solution, but in many ways the "simplest". Shields will be awesome by default within the core rules, and you won't have to worry about game balance either...it's been playtested to death already :smallbiggrin: