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Froogleyboy
2009-08-30, 07:56 PM
Okay, I'm confused about how to attack. My problem is this (for example):

I have a shortsword, I attack an orc and to see if I hit, do I role against my short sword skill, or his passive defenses?

Cybren
2009-08-30, 07:57 PM
You roll against your weapon skill. Your foe gets to choose which of his active defenses to roll against. In GURPS 3rd Edition, passive defense was a bonus to your active defenses that armor granted. 4th edition GURPS no longer has this except in the form of Shields that grant defense bonuses to attacks on the front or shield hexes.

Basically:

I make an thrusting attack with my shortsword against the orc. I roll under my shortsword skill

The orc decides to parry. He rolls against his parry value.


if I succeed on my attack and my enemy fails his defense, i hit. If I succeed on my attack and my enemy succeeds on his defense, he defends and isn't hit. If i fail my attack, he doesn't need to defend. If i have a critical success on my attack, he can't attempt to defend at all.

Unwitting Pawn
2009-08-30, 08:44 PM
Yeah, what Cybren said :smallsmile:

Passive Defence (PD) doesn't exist in GURPS as of 4e.

You roll to attack against your appropriate weapon/unarmed skill. With certain weapons such as swords, where you have more that one option (thrusting stub or swinging slash/cut) then as GM I would ask you to call which you are doing, ideally before you roll to hit.

In normal circumstances (basic attack, even ground, good visibility/light, etc) then your base skill on your charsheet is going to be your effective skill.

Let's say that your base skill of Shortsword is 14, then unless you are trying something fancy, your effective skill will also be 14. Your to-hit roll needs to be equals-to or less than that number. If you roll 3 or 4, then this is a critical strike. You were so skilled/quick/lucky/whatever that your hit is guaranteed at this stage and your opponent gets no defence. Even if the roll on the critical hit table doesn't give any bonus effect (such as x2 damage), this is still a fairly big deal in GURPS terms :smallsmile:.

If you roll between 5 and 14, this means that your hit is on target, and will land unless defended against. If the orc in this example is taken by surprise (such as attacked from behind) then he gets no Active Defence roll - just roll for damage. Assuming that the orc was aware of you and ready for the attack, then he/it gets an Active Defence, which could be a Dodge, a Parry (weapon or unarmed), or a Block (shield or cloak). The orc(GM?) needs to roll equal to or less than the chosen AD. If they succeed, then the attack is defended against, and that's usually it. If the AD roll was a 3 or 4, then the orc critically succeed on the defence, which forced you to fumble as if you had rolled a 17 or 18 to-hit.

Hope that helps and wasn't too much info :smallredface:

Yakk
2009-08-31, 10:49 AM
I haven't played GURPS in at least 1 edition it appears.

Doesn't this break down with two high-skill players? Or more specifically, with a high-skill defender.

A defender who needs a 15 or under has a 95% chance of defending (of which 5% are crit defences).

An attacker with 10 skill then needs to attack ~40 times to hit in a non-crit -- and ~20 times to hit on a crit -- or about 14 attacks per hit.

An attacker with 15 skill needs to attack ~20 times to hit on a non-crit, and ~20 times to hit on a crit -- or 10 attacks per hit.

This looks both like a roll snooze fest, a matter of huge variance, and a quite small gap between the 'high skill' character and the 'average skill' character against someone with a high parry chance.

Are there ways to take mutual penalties to both the attack roll and the defence roll?

Are there ways to boost your crit chance? (I'm remembering skill-10 as your crit threshold from an earlier version of GURPS).

Or do a pair of high-skill characters just sit there wiffing at each other until one gets lucky?

Unwitting Pawn
2009-08-31, 11:27 AM
I haven't played GURPS in at least 1 edition it appears.

Woooooooooooooo! A few diff Qs here - not sure I can do them all, but here goes :smallwink:


Doesn't this break down with two high-skill players? Or more specifically, with a high-skill defender.

You may have been right in the past. I've never played GURPS 3e, but have come across similar comments about it to yours in the past. I don't think is such an issue in GURPS 4e though...off top of my head, Deceptive Attacks (option in core ruleset, see below) should take care of that now.


*snip*
This looks both like a roll snooze fest, a matter of huge variance, and a quite small gap between the 'high skill' character and the 'average skill' character against someone with a high parry chance.

Are there ways to take mutual penalties to both the attack roll and the defence roll?

Yeah, those Deceptive Attacks allow you to reduce the opponent's Active Defence by -1 for each -2 penalty to-hit. Rules suggest that GM can set this at a fixed -2/-4 rather than leave it a variable option (if they think that will speed up the decision process a little) or let the attacker decide before they roll.


Are there ways to boost your crit chance? (I'm remembering skill-10 as your crit threshold from an earlier version of GURPS).

In GURPS 4e, the default crit numbers are 3-4 and 17-18 for fumbles. Rising to 3-5 and 18 respectively at effective skill of 15, and 3-6 and 18 for effective skill of 16+.


Or do a pair of high-skill characters just sit there wiffing at each other until one gets lucky?

Not too much, in my exp. Although a little of that can add dramatic tension, and isn't too unrealistic anyway. Don't forget that one serious hit can end the fight in GURPS, so two master swordsmen facing off should be a tense affair.

Hope that helps :smallsmile:

fusilier
2009-09-01, 06:42 PM
I play 3rd edition GURPS, concerning the whole "roll" snooze fest thing, I've never actually encountered it myself. I've only ever seen it discussed as a theoretical possibility. However, I haven't played in high-powered campaigns, or with people who make seriously unbalanced characters. Typically the roll to hit will be easier than the roll to defend in 3rd edition. Unless you pile on PD. There were special rules to deal with two "masters" fighting each other.

Parries are typically at 1/2 skill, although fencing parries with 2/3 skill. Yes, if you send an average character against a highly skilled one, you may run into occasions where the highly skilled character can't be hit. But, the highly skilled character should have a good chance of getting through the defenses of the average one. So combat shouldn't take that long.

I think it was actually a little more of a concern in 4th edition, because Dodging became easier. You could design (a really stupid character), that would have a dodge of something like 15, maybe even higher. A roll of 17 is always a failure, and 18 is always a critical failure. As GM if somebody insists upon making such an unbalanced character, it is actually pretty easy to eliminate him/her. You can only dodge an attack that you are "aware" of. :-)

Unwitting Pawn
2009-09-01, 06:56 PM
I think it was actually a little more of a concern in 4th edition, because Dodging became easier. You could design (a really stupid character), that would have a dodge of something like 15, maybe even higher. A roll of 17 is always a failure, and 18 is always a critical failure. As GM if somebody insists upon making such an unbalanced character, it is actually pretty easy to eliminate him/her. You can only dodge an attack that you are "aware" of. :-)

Well, potentially possible AFAIK. However, it would need to be a ridiculously cinematic campaign for that to be considered remotely viable. And IMHO the GM would need to be asleep to let that one get past him/her. :smallwink:

Cybren
2009-09-01, 06:57 PM
You can also feint, use weapons like flails that are hard to parry, use two weapons, use multiple attacks from rapid strikes, use the aforementioned deceptive attacks. Attack from a side hex (penalty to defend) or from the rear (can't defend at all!)

Note that your defenses (Dodge, Block, and Parry) aren't as easy to increase as your attacks.

fusilier
2009-09-02, 05:14 PM
Well, potentially possible AFAIK. However, it would need to be a ridiculously cinematic campaign for that to be considered remotely viable. And IMHO the GM would need to be asleep to let that one get past him/her. :smallwink:

Yeah, I'm thinking of a specific instance, where a long time D&D power-gamer attempted to show how GURPS was "broken." I kept pointing out the various limitations written into the descriptions of the advantages he was taking, but he wouldn't listen. I also tried to convince him that he was "missing the point" of GURPS. The GM was fairly new to the system, and didn't pay that much attention. Anyway, after one, very brief session the GM reverted to D&D!!! :-(

Zovc
2009-09-02, 05:27 PM
If i have a critical success on my attack, he can't attempt to defend at all.

Does your opponent forfeit their roll if you roll a critical success? What if they, too roll a critical success?

fusilier
2009-09-02, 05:31 PM
Does your opponent forfeit their roll if you roll a critical success? What if they, too roll a critical success?

They don't get to roll. The rolls aren't opposed rolls. If somebody attacks you and hits, then you get to roll a defense (dodge, block, parry, etc.). If, he misses, you don't bother to roll a defense (there's nothing to defend against). If, however, the attacker rolls a critical success, then the defender does not get to defend against the attack. (And the attacker should also roll on the critical hit chart).

--EDIT--
I don't think anything special happens on a critical success when rolling a defense. Just that the defense succeeded.

Unwitting Pawn
2009-09-02, 06:51 PM
Does your opponent forfeit their roll if you roll a critical success? What if they, too roll a critical success?

Basically I'd agree with what fusilier says on this. Except that I consider a successful attack roll not as a "hit" but to be a "potential hit" - a blow that will land true unless the defender can stop it. Critical hits count as "guaranteed hits" of course - the defender gets no roll. A roll on the Critical Hit table may (or may not) also give additional benefits as well, but the hit is always guaranteed regardless.

As for a critical success on an Active Defence roll, this counts as forcing a fumble by the attacker. A critical fumble on the defence roll counts the same as a critical hit for the attacker.

Hope that helps. :smallbiggrin:

Unwitting Pawn
2009-09-02, 07:15 PM
Yeah, I'm thinking of a specific instance, where a long time D&D power-gamer attempted to show how GURPS was "broken." I kept pointing out the various limitations written into the descriptions of the advantages he was taking, but he wouldn't listen. I also tried to convince him that he was "missing the point" of GURPS. The GM was fairly new to the system, and didn't pay that much attention. Anyway, after one, very brief session the GM reverted to D&D!!! :-(

That is unfortunate. :smallfrown:
It does highlight a couple of possible differences between GURPS and D&D philosophy, though. The first is that due to the modular and flexible nature of GURPS, the GM is kind of expected to shortlist good/bad advantages on a per-campaign/setting/genre basis. The second is the flip side of that coin - players cannot assume that just because it is "legal" within the core rulebook, they can generate a min-maxed PC and rely on the GM allowing it automatically.

With GURPS, players have more freedom to build a PC that exactly matches a character concept. It also means that they have a greater responsibility that goes along with that, not to act like munchkin jerks.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-09-02, 07:20 PM
Defences? Meh.

My supernaturally durable regenerating vampire BBEG doesn't know what defences are. Comes with being able to take an atomic detonation in the face and shrug it off.

Unless it is somehow a silvered atomic detonation, that is.

Cybren
2009-09-02, 09:00 PM
Defences? Meh.

My supernaturally durable regenerating vampire BBEG doesn't know what defences are. Comes with being able to take an atomic detonation in the face and shrug it off.

Unless it is somehow a silvered atomic detonation, that is.

That's what Affliction (negated advantage) is for

Knaight
2009-09-02, 09:19 PM
Defences? Meh.

My supernaturally durable regenerating vampire BBEG doesn't know what defences are. Comes with being able to take an atomic detonation in the face and shrug it off.

Unless it is somehow a silvered atomic detonation, that is.

That's going to be tricky. Detonate an explosive in a silver shop when the vampire is in there. Done.

Unwitting Pawn
2009-09-03, 05:38 AM
My supernaturally durable regenerating vampire BBEG doesn't know what defences are. Comes with being able to take an atomic detonation in the face and shrug it off.

Heh, your vampire BBEG can come and fight me outside in daytime if it thinks it's hard enough :smallcool:


That's what Affliction (negated advantage) is for

Indeed. Or even the Sunlight spell. :smallbiggrin:


That's going to be tricky. Detonate an explosive in a silver shop when the vampire is in there. Done.

True, but wouldn't that be kind of almost impossible? I mean, the shop will be open exclusively during the day, I'd expect. And besides, why would Superman want to go Kryptonite shopping? :smallwink:

fusilier
2009-09-03, 05:54 PM
Basically I'd agree with what fusilier says on this. Except that I consider a successful attack roll not as a "hit" but to be a "potential hit" - a blow that will land true unless the defender can stop it. Critical hits count as "guaranteed hits" of course - the defender gets no roll. A roll on the Critical Hit table may (or may not) also give additional benefits as well, but the hit is always guaranteed regardless.

As for a critical success on an Active Defence roll, this counts as forcing a fumble by the attacker. A critical fumble on the defence roll counts the same as a critical hit for the attacker.

Hope that helps. :smallbiggrin:

"Potential Hit" is a better way of expressing it.

fusilier
2009-09-03, 05:57 PM
That is unfortunate. :smallfrown:
It does highlight a couple of possible differences between GURPS and D&D philosophy, though. The first is that due to the modular and flexible nature of GURPS, the GM is kind of expected to shortlist good/bad advantages on a per-campaign/setting/genre basis. The second is the flip side of that coin - players cannot assume that just because it is "legal" within the core rulebook, they can generate a min-maxed PC and rely on the GM allowing it automatically.

With GURPS, players have more freedom to build a PC that exactly matches a character concept. It also means that they have a greater responsibility that goes along with that, not to act like munchkin jerks.

You're absolutely right. You cannot approach GURPS the same way as D&D. I think it's easier for some people than others to switch from D&D to GURPS. Unfortunately, for a lot of people all they have ever known is D&D, and getting them to look at an RPG in a different light might take a lot of effort.

Tough_Tonka
2009-09-03, 11:34 PM
I haven't played GURPS in at least 1 edition it appears.

Doesn't this break down with two high-skill players? Or more specifically, with a high-skill defender.

A defender who needs a 15 or under has a 95% chance of defending (of which 5% are crit defences).

An attacker with 10 skill then needs to attack ~40 times to hit in a non-crit -- and ~20 times to hit on a crit -- or about 14 attacks per hit.

An attacker with 15 skill needs to attack ~20 times to hit on a non-crit, and ~20 times to hit on a crit -- or 10 attacks per hit.

This looks both like a roll snooze fest, a matter of huge variance, and a quite small gap between the 'high skill' character and the 'average skill' character against someone with a high parry chance.

Are there ways to take mutual penalties to both the attack roll and the defence roll?

Are there ways to boost your crit chance? (I'm remembering skill-10 as your crit threshold from an earlier version of GURPS).

Or do a pair of high-skill characters just sit there wiffing at each other until one gets lucky?

For one thing its pretty hard to get a 15+ parry score, since you use half your weapon skill+3 to determine it. You'd basically need a 22 for your weapon skill to parry so well, and that's if your using a special weapon that gives you bonuses to parrying checks like a quaterstaff. For other weapons you'd need a 24 minimum.

Also when you have skills higher than 13 your chances for critical hits increase up to 5 and maybe up to 6. Its been a while since I've played.

Unwitting Pawn
2009-09-04, 11:10 AM
Also when you have skills higher than 13 your chances for critical hits increase up to 5 and maybe up to 6. Its been a while since I've played.

Skill of 15+ required for a crit chance at 5. 16+ for a chance at 6.

Unwitting Pawn
2009-09-04, 06:20 PM
You're absolutely right. You cannot approach GURPS the same way as D&D. I think it's easier for some people than others to switch from D&D to GURPS.

I've certainly seen evidence that some have switched, but percentage-wise it's prob a very small number. Seems that a small wave of people switched at the time D&D moved to 4th Edition. Then there are those who happily play both, but for different reasons.


Unfortunately, for a lot of people all they have ever known is D&D, and getting them to look at an RPG in a different light might take a lot of effort.

I think it's worth trying though, at least for those who are dissatisfied with what they currently have. Those who want rules-light may be happiest with something like Fudge or Risus as opposed to either D&D or GURPS. But those who want their games and characters to better fit their imagination or the reality of the setting, or to even just to play fighters that wizards might actually fear, should give GURPS a serious look.