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Archpaladin Zousha
2009-08-30, 08:10 PM
So as some of you know, a friend and I are working on creating a campaign setting, and there's one little item that has been buggin me for a while, and that's its versimilitude.

I know the whole catgirl argument, but I'm having trouble figuring how to make the kind of setting we're trying to build feel probable at the very least.

The mose basic element of the setting is that it's choked with mind-controlling, man-killing thorns, with only a few safe paths and areas, and the whole thing is on top of an undead-infested superdungeon. What kind of civilization could grow out of such a harsh enviornment? Our current idea is that there are a number of city-states throughout the area that keep each other alive through trade, since none of them are completely self-sufficient. Here is a link to what we have so far for the setting:

The Vale of Thorns (http://www.box.net/shared/iq1htbgbjq)

I was wondering if those of you who are more adept at ecology and political science to help point out the flaws here and help improve on the plot and logic holes that are most likely all over the place here. Thank you very much.

Hal
2009-08-30, 08:56 PM
I'm not really in a place to read all 50-some-odd pages of your PDF. Kudos to you on really getting into your project. I'll just fire off some generic thoughts, and you can take them for what they're worth ("We already thought of that, that idea was on page 17, nobody in their right mind would reach that conclusion," etc.).

These city states are likely going to be as self-sufficient as possible, given their surroundings. Since I imagine travel between cities to be very dangerous and takes several days, trade is going to be difficult. What trade there is will be of the utmost interest to the state; they'll spend a lot of manpower to make sure it reaches its destination and then returns safely. It wouldn't surprise me if they used magic to transport supplies between cities rather than caravans, given the risks.

Is the superdungeon common knowledge? Are there entrances to this thing all over the place, or only a few spots? Are the entrances known? Do the undead come out to play frequently, or only rouse if people wander in? Answering these questions will determine how the city-states handle the superdungeon.

The city-states will likely have rather authoritarian governments. Dangerous times typically result in people of powerful personalities taking charge. Of course, there's room for other governments to crop up, of course, but the confidence of the people in the ability of the government to keep them safe is of the utmost importance; the moment it starts to waver, such governments will find themselves in danger of being usurped.

As for inter-city politics, I imagine there's room to play here. On the one hand, the dangerous surroundings would make any sort of military campaign extremely risky (as in, large chances of losing the bulk of your army in one outing). On the other hand, the dependence on resources from trade may be too tempting for some leaders to ignore. Since most people will probably never leave the city they are born in, there will be natural suspicion of neighboring cities. You have room to play here; alliances between cities will be natural and necessary; trade will be a high priority; the strength of each of each of these factors will depend on what sort of story you wish to weave.

Again, I realize that's kind of generic, but I'm afraid that's all I can offer without reading your PDF. We'll call that a "rainy day" activity.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-08-30, 09:10 PM
The superdungeon, known as the Labyrinth, is common knowledge, and there are several entrances, but a great number of the entrances are hard to get to. The easiest entrances are located in the major city of the setting, sort of like how Waterdeep has entrances to Undermountain.

Dublock
2009-08-30, 09:54 PM
ok I read through the pages and I enjoy it :D I loved Narsopath as it came together very nicely. It IS late for me and I'm not in the best mental state but here are some comments (I did not read all the info about gods...maby another day :P)

For some reason my comments are about whats in the Cities section and nothing else, perhaps I'll read later and see what else I think of.

Fire Point

Bagman? Good concept...but there will be a black market that bypasses the middle man. There might not be any established markets but there will blackmarkets at least.

How do those two leaders get along? Very interesting set up, but need more to it. Is there Tension? A power play? Will one try to over take the other?

How does the Tornheralds think of the Labyrinth? About the Undead?

Here I was going to ask why they are aiming to take out Fire Point first, but then I read Narsopath and I love it. Smart group...I love their thinking.

Conflicting Crime gangs, Mawtooths and Lords, how does the previous assassin guide approve? Old Assassins should be able to handle themselves against some theives. In my mind Trained killers > Theives. This becomes important when you say they became a legal organization. You answer this later in "Fun Facts" But...still hard to grasp that an organization that can't kill anyone isn't taking the chance to kill now. So my question is Why. Why are the old assassin guild letting two thief guilds into their city and doing nothing about it?


Narsopath

General meetings every 6 months? That is a bit quick but ok. What do they actually discuss in these meetings?

Like I said, I love this section.

Thornspire

You know what would be fun? If someone accidentally or "accidentally" opens the mine into the Undead mess.

This can be a diplomatic mission. Thornspire has to pick which city to side with. The PCs can play a role into it. Honestly I'm not to sure why they are hesitant so much. But understandable, money is important.


You have so many settlements but not the basic info it seems. Just getting population, government can help. But I know your still working on it.

Thats all for now. I am tired lol.

Asbestos
2009-08-31, 02:16 AM
Well, I gave it a quick look over and I didn't see anything that would require any serious knowledge of ecology, is there anything in particular you have questions about?

Also, in the Table of Contents in the 'Faith of the Vales' section... it doesn't say 'Page' after 'Children of the Rolling Deep'... not even close.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-08-31, 08:25 AM
Mainly how the city states could keep themselves in food with virtually no farmland and no animals to hunt. My co-creator hasn't explained how the ecology of the Vale works, but since the Thorns react violently to things that dare to tamper with them, it's a safe bet that there aren't very many herbivores. That means there aren't many carnivores, and thus there's nothing for the people to hunt. Places like Firepoint are so big that they fill the glade they're in, with no room for stuff like farms or grazing lands for livestock. It seems to me in a world like the Vale civilization shouldn't have even started, let alone gotten to the point of building huge cities, since there doesn't seem to be any food.

Hal
2009-08-31, 08:33 AM
Mainly how the city states could keep themselves in food with virtually no farmland and no animals to hunt. My co-creator hasn't explained how the ecology of the Vale works, but since the Thorns react violently to things that dare to tamper with them, it's a safe bet that there aren't very many herbivores. That means there aren't many carnivores, and thus there's nothing for the people to hunt. Places like Firepoint are so big that they fill the glade they're in, with no room for stuff like farms or grazing lands for livestock. It seems to me in a world like the Vale civilization should have even started, let alone gotten to the point of building huge cities, since there doesn't seem to be any food.

Hrm, that IS a conundrum, and one of the problems of apocalyptic settings; where does the food come from?

Magic is an obvious answer. Each city was able to start because a wizard opened a demi-plane where they could produce all of their food, for example.

Otherwise, I'm not sure I see an answer aside from magic; the wilderness is too dangerous, you can't go underground, and, as you said, the cities take up too much space.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-08-31, 08:52 AM
I'm not above using magic, but I feel like that's cheating. I've felt guilty about having only one mountain in the place and saying that it magically replenishes the stone and metal ore that the dwarves mine out of it because it's the giant earthmote that crashed into the place and caused the huge conflagration of magic that buried the original city and created the Vale. You can't have a single mountain in the area and expect to generate enough metal to keep a civilization running.

It's like this civilization can't survive without magic, and we meant for this to be a sort of a "magic realism" setting.

Kylarra
2009-08-31, 09:05 AM
It's like this civilization can't survive without magic, and we meant for this to be a sort of a "magic realism" setting.My feeling is that you guys went overboard on the Grim dark (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GrimDark) nature of the place (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrapsackWorld) and thus without some sort of DM fiat, you're in trouble.


I've only skimmed the first few pages, but the easiest way would be to just justify it as being generated through the world forest's mists. Somehow livestock keeps coming through (from past or future) at random intervals.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-08-31, 09:31 AM
Correction: My co-author went overboard on the GRIMDARK nature. I came into the project after that.

Limos
2009-08-31, 09:38 AM
How about some new creatures to eat? Things that are tough enough to scrape out an existence even with the thorns. Or things that avoid the ground entirely.

Plants with giant gas canopies that float over the thorns and soak up sunlight for energy. With all of their natural predators wiped out the Gasplants have flourished and bred in the upper air.

The Gasplants bear fruit along their underside and can be corralled into farms above the city. Their fibrous membranes are also good for fabrics and building materials.

Thane of Fife
2009-08-31, 10:52 AM
Places like Firepoint are so big that they fill the glade they're in, with no room for stuff like farms or grazing lands for livestock. It seems to me in a world like the Vale civilization shouldn't have even started, let alone gotten to the point of building huge cities, since there doesn't seem to be any food.

How about roof-top gardens? That would at least help.

The Thornspire could have large terraced farms, forcing everybody to trade with the dwarves even more.

I assume trading with people outside of the Vale of Thorns is no good?

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-08-31, 03:02 PM
Only the vistani would even be capable of doing that, since the Vale doens't like to let its denizens leave.

But you've got a good point there. Maybe since there isn't enough room for the goliaths to be hunter-gatherers, they could run the farms while the dwarves run the mines and quarries. It makes more sense than having the halflings supporting EVERYONE.

Shadow_Elf
2009-08-31, 03:13 PM
You've already mentioned there was one earthmote. Why don't they cultivate food and grow livestock on earthmotes? They would float above the cities, and either wizards, gondola-type things or flying machines would transport the goods into a central sort of "docking" area, from which it could be shipped. So, you end up with "the air docks" in the middle of the city, and that could make for a good place for intrigue and mercantile politics. Maybe not every city can afford this but some do?

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-08-31, 03:15 PM
Hmm...you're right! People can't go under the Thorns, but what about OVER them?! I'll have to ask my co-creator about this when he gets back from Wales.

Ravens_cry
2009-08-31, 03:39 PM
In jungles, where things grow fast and furious, farmers slash and burn (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slash_and_burn) open spaces for their fields. Of course, this would have a high attrition rate in this dangerous enviroment, so this would be done by slaves and/or prisoners. Another idea is tall towers, like power pylons, with edible and fruiting vines climbing up them. Taking from the farm towers would be likely a grave offence.

Thane of Fife
2009-08-31, 03:39 PM
I'll have to ask my co-creator about this when he gets back from Wales.

So... is Alice a pen-name, or does he have really mean parents?


And in other news, you suggest the threat of war between cities, but wouldn't the thorns make that almost impossible?

lsfreak
2009-08-31, 03:48 PM
I haven't more than skimmed, but I didn't see any climate-related entries. My idea would be that almost every city is choked with plants, a kind of perverse imitation of the Thorns. Cities are covered in trees that have slowly grown to resemble rainforest trees, with layers and layers of different things growing on and around them (with the assistance of the people, who train them to grow in certain ways). Several layers of vines are planted at the bases, larger ones reaching farther up and smaller ones twining around the larger ones. Crops of mushrooms are found in the nooks of branches, bromeliad-like plants provide additional fruits, and things that look of Spanish moss are grown for greens and seeds. The trees themselves are huge nut trees, providing flour. The loss of a single such tree could be catastrophic.

The houses are likewise covered in plants. Tomatoes and grapes climb of buildings instead of ivy. Onions, strawberries, peas, and beans cover every windowbox. Roofs have the staples - wheat, rice, corn, or potatoes.

The grounds of the cities themselves are just something like pastures with a few main thoroughfares. Grazing animals feed off the grass (probably with some kind of insect that evolved to feed off the dung, still keeping it relatively clean).

Of course, this doesn't cover all the food, but it would supply a bit of it.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-08-31, 04:18 PM
So... is Alice a pen-name, or does he have really mean parents?


And in other news, you suggest the threat of war between cities, but wouldn't the thorns make that almost impossible?

First of all, it's Alyss. Second, yes, it's his screenname. His real name is Fergus Bovey-Hull. I think I spelled that right.

That's another good point. If the roseways and glades aren't big enough to maneuver an army, then at least traditional medieval warfare should be impossible.

Also, I'm not too sure on how the Thorns respond to farming attempts, but I think my co-author mentioned something about them being resistant to fire.

I'm beginning to wonder if maybe I should start trying to reign his ideas in a bit.

AgentPaper
2009-08-31, 04:32 PM
How about Thorn-Farmers? Basically, people who brave the thorns to gather some kind of edible fruit that grows in them. They have to be very careful doing so, as there's always the risk of the thorns lashing out at them, but they've learned how to take the fruits without causing the thorns so much harm that they get riled up, at least most of the time. This would essentially be one of, if not the most, dangerous jobs you can have, but also the most important. Roof farms and small glades turned into large, terraced farms would also create a nice portion of food, but it's the Thorn-Farmers that really support the population.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-08-31, 05:11 PM
Well, I see no reason why we can't use more than one of these ideas to explain the food issue. I mean, if all the ore and stone that people use comes from one mountain that magically replenishes itself, then why couldn't they have earthmote farms, terraced fields on the Thornspire and even more?

Here's the idea I'm going to propose. Most of the cities support themselves agriculturally through the use of earthmotes, upon which they raise food and livestock. Since the glades can't expand, and the Labyrinth nixes any plan to build basements, cities expand upwards, kind of like Sharn. However, not all settlements have enough earthmotes to grow enough food to support themselves, Firepoint being the best example. Thus, the cities trade with their neighbors in an uneasy alliance.

Firepoint depends on all the other cities to survive since there's little that can actually be produced there. They don't have very many earthmotes, and none of them very large, and because its constantly raining there only certain kinds of food can grow. They're kept alive through trade with the other cities because they lie on an important crossroads in the roseway network, which gives them exclusive access to the Thornspire, and the food grown by the goliaths and the raw materials mined by the dwarves. If Firepoint gets mad, they can shut down trade with the rest of the Vale, and since the other city states depend upon the raw materials the dwarves mine, they keep Firepoint placated. They also owe Firepoint big-time because the city is situated over the largest access point to the Labyrinth, with most of the city sewers opening up to it. The army of Firepoint keeps the undead in the Labyrinth at bay, preventing them from swarming the other cities. Since Firepoint has the strongest military in the Vale (they couldn't keep the undead in check otherwise) the other cities also don't want to tangle with them.

In other words, Firepoint is kind of like Rome. That sound about right?

Altima
2009-08-31, 05:33 PM
Apologies if what I'm suggesting has already been explained in your PDF. I didn't have the time to read it at the moment.

What if they were to slash and burn a section of the thorns, then salt the earth around an area, to prevent the thorns from growing?

The thing about ecology and such is that there's always a relationship between all life. The thorns may be aggressive and such, but there should be some animals or plantlife that can feed off of it, such as large flying animals that feed on the Thorn. Or maybe there's a special type of edible fungus that can grow on it. Or maybe, as a previous poster suggested, massive gas-filled plant balloons with little tendrils hanging down that catch and absorb Thorn-spores as nutrients.

I suggest watching the movie The Ruins, as it seems to have several things in common.

EDIT: What about having the major towns/cities by the water? Traditionally, that's where most civilizations are formed, and fishing can help reduce the food shortages.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-08-31, 06:04 PM
If my understanding of the Thorns are correct, attempting to slash and burn the Thorns would get a lot of people killed, since they mind control and/or kill people for simply trying to touch them, and that they aren't truly natural, being a side-effect of the fact that the Vale is a place where the Feywild and the Shadowfell overlap. The power, vitality and madness of the Feywild mixed with the darkness, malice and death of the Shadowfell. The Thorns are also supposed to be sentient, or at least semi-sentient, with no rhyme or reason to their behavior.

Also, we're going to be fighting them in the final battle of the campaign. The Thorns are apparently going to uproot themselves and make a kind of magic-Godzilla-wicker-man thing that we have to try and defeat before it destroys all life in the Vale.

Thane of Fife
2009-08-31, 06:47 PM
First of all, it's Alyss. Second, yes, it's his screenname. His real name is Fergus Bovey-Hull. I think I spelled that right.

That's another good point. If the roseways and glades aren't big enough to maneuver an army, then at least traditional medieval warfare should be impossible.

1. That pdf clearly says "Alice."

2. I don't know how golems work in 4e, but imagine big machete-wielding golems that serve as the vanguard of each army, hacking paths through the thorns.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-08-31, 07:14 PM
Hmmm...That's a possibility. A lot of golems would have been lost in the Fall though (the Warforged lived in the city as soldiers and laborers, becoming trapped in the lower reaches of the Labyrinth after the Fall, struggling to stay alive in the face of undead annihilation, and thus a warforged PC is usually either discovered there, or was EXTREMELY lucky to make it to the surface alive).

Ripped Shirt Kirk
2009-08-31, 07:31 PM
I don't think this is a very good idea, but I'm bored, so here goes nothing.....:


Have a city on stilts right? Really big one, ancient, lotsa people, you get the idea. Have a couple other citys on stilts that aren't quite as big, but branch off from the big main city. Have big bridges/gliders going from one city to the other. They have one city thats renknown for its farming, one for its smithing, etc. etc.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-08-31, 08:48 PM
Tempting idea, but it eliminates the presence of the Thorns as a threat.

lsfreak
2009-08-31, 09:02 PM
Tempting idea, but it eliminates the presence of the Thorns as a threat.

Until the thorns start attacking (or having deranged monsters/travelers/adventurers attack) the stilts :smalltongue:

Ravens_cry
2009-08-31, 09:13 PM
If my understanding of the Thorns are correct, attempting to slash and burn the Thorns would get a lot of people killed, since they mind control and/or kill people for simply trying to touch them, and that they aren't truly natural, being a side-effect of the fact that the Vale is a place where the Feywild and the Shadowfell overlap. The power, vitality and madness of the Feywild mixed with the darkness, malice and death of the Shadowfell. The Thorns are also supposed to be sentient, or at least semi-sentient, with no rhyme or reason to their behavior.

That's why I suggested prisoners. No one gives a flying fish what happens to them. You steal a loaf of bread? To the Thorns with you! A city needs food, and like a hungry beast, is willing to bend, or even break, its own rules to stay alive. In sieges, people have eaten their own children as food runs out.

lsfreak
2009-08-31, 09:20 PM
That's why I suggested prisoners. No one gives a flying fish what happens to them. You steal a loaf of bread? To the Thorns with you! A city needs food, and like a hungry beast, is willing to bend, or even break, its own rules to stay alive. In sieges, people have eaten their own children as food runs out.

...in which case, the logical next step is that half the prisoners get sent to clear the Thorns, and half goes to supply the city's protein requirements.

Kylarra
2009-08-31, 09:22 PM
...in which case, the logical next step is that half the prisoners get sent to clear the Thorns, and half goes to supply the city's protein requirements.

Soylent Green.

Ravens_cry
2009-08-31, 09:37 PM
...in which case, the logical next step is that half the prisoners get sent to clear the Thorns, and half goes to supply the city's protein requirements. That would work only short term, as thermodynamically a food chain is like a pyramid scheme.

lsfreak
2009-08-31, 09:41 PM
That would work only short term, as thermodynamically a food chain is like a pyramid scheme.

Point, though depending on how effective sending prisoners out to clear the Thorns is (which, by the sounds of it won't be very effective), it might be the most energy-efficient option.

avr
2009-08-31, 09:51 PM
None of these can provide all the food required I think, but they should add some.

Maybe creatures sufficiently small and/or stupid aren't bothered by the thorns? This can give you bees (honey), ants (larvae) and fish (I can't imagine your thorns bothering whitebait).

If the thorns seed every so often you have a danger and an opportunity - the seeds could be nutritious, but dangerous if they start growing.

Birds can fly over the thorns better than 4e characters. Control their nesting sites and you have some meat and eggs. Oh, and fertiliser for those rooftop gardens.

avr
2009-08-31, 10:04 PM
One thing about a tightly constrained food supply which depends on scarce land - nomads won't be welcome. Like, if they arrive in numbers they probably stand a good chance of being killed or driven off. This poses obvious problems for your Church of the Dreaming Father. If this is going to work the followers may need their own ghettoes, which welcome the followers of the church and take responsibility for them.

Ravens_cry
2009-08-31, 10:16 PM
Point, though depending on how effective sending prisoners out to clear the Thorns is (which, by the sounds of it won't be very effective), it might be the most energy-efficient option. Well, small fields, combined with other ideas, from roof top gardens, trellises and vines everywhere, rabbits, goats, pigeons and pigs in hutches for complete protean, along with mushrooms grown in night-soil, you may have a self supporting city. Your going to have to keep back the Thorns from the city anyway. This just extends this a bit.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-08-31, 10:49 PM
You're right that the vistani would likely not be trusted. As far as I can tell, they are like the Roma of the real world. But then again, they have something no one else has. They can travel in the World Forest, which may actually have animals and the like.

There IS an actual forest environment in the Vale, the Forest of Grimmendeep. The elves live there, and they're the primary exporters of lumber, hunted meat, leather, ivory etc. It doesn't seem like the elves' exports alone would be enough to keep the whole Vale supplied though.

Ravens_cry
2009-08-31, 10:55 PM
There IS an actual forest environment in the Vale, the Forest of Grimmendeep. The elves live there, and they're the primary exporters of lumber, hunted meat, leather, ivory etc. It doesn't seem like the elves' exports alone would be enough to keep the whole Vale supplied though.
The Vale also needs things to export in return. Otherwise it's not trade, it's tribute, a whole other pot of gilled swimmers.

Jkol
2009-08-31, 11:08 PM
A. One issue I noticed is your treatment of gods in different parts of the document.

The section on Gods and Churches outlines six gods and their associated sub-churches and makes them sound pretty exclusive but your section on the different cities mostly references the gods from the standard D&D campaign. In Firepoint the example of religious practice is the Church of Pelor, Narsopath is built around a race that worships the Raven Queen and the Dwarves in Thornspire worship Moradin.

If both cosmologies are going to co-exist in the world It would be helpful to outline their interaction.


B. Also someone has mentioned it before but the nature, size and quantity of Rose pathways will be hugely determinative of how war is fought between cities.

If there are only a few pathways large enough for an army to march -- that highly favors defenders because there are fewer access points to defend.

Carving through the thorns seems impractical for several reasons.
1) Risk of manpower to manipulation.
2) The thorns regrow after about 24 hours. This has several implications
a) you need a dedicated force to keep the path way open otherwise
b) a supply chain is impossible (making sieges difficult/impossible)
c) retreat is not an option

Aggressive cities might seek to attack through neutral cities if it allows them to attack from an unanticipated direction or some other strategic advantage.

Can these rose pathways be blocked or destroyed by a city that is desperate enough?

C. Alternative travel.

There appear to be several rivers on the map. Are these rivers safe to travel on? How far does the influence of the thorns extend? There might be some important trade done by riverboat if they are usable.

Similarly, the Adventurer's Vault suggests methods of potential air travel for PC's (Ornithopters, Airships) how do these play into the setting. Do they exist in the vale?

Finally there is also the issue of portals. How available are they. Do portals exist in every church or only in the deepest reaches of the labyrinth? The more widely available they are the less likely that wealthy individuals are going to travel via the pathways and the less of a threat the thorns are to players.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-08-31, 11:15 PM
That's the thing though. The Vale isn't a unified nation. It's a number of city-states whose control really only extends to the glade they occupy. The elves technically have the closest thing to a country, since the Grimmendeep Forest is mysteriously Thorn-free, but even they usually don't have much influence outside their home in Naissus.

The dwarves and goliaths have the next-biggest territory, since they control the Thornspire mountain, the goliaths living on it and the dwarves in it. They have valuable exports too, since the Thornspires veins of metal and quarries of stone seem to mysteriously replenish over time, so the dwarves can mine as much as they need or want. I'm thinking about giving the goliaths terraced farms on the mountainside, like the Incas, which they share with the dwarves and trade to Firepoint and other city-states with the dwarven exports of raw metal and stone.

Then there are the fey (eladrin and gnomes) and the shadar-kai, who each control three cities each, and hate each other.

Then there are the three settlements that belong to the dragonborn and the halflings (still trying to figure out how that'd work), though one is actually a village called Wolf Beach which is populated entirely by talking animals and shifters.

Next there's Crossmeet, which is for human-based races such as humans, half-elves and half-orcs, which is connected to three other cities that are basically monster cities, for people like orcs, kobolds and the like.

Counting Firepoint, which is the melting-pot where all roseways lead, that's sixteen different civilized spots in the entire Vale. The rest is all Thorn-infested wilderness that it'd be suicide to try and trek over.

There's also something about a Midnight Sea to the south that's completely devoid of light except for the moon and a land called the Void that's basically the Labyrinth above ground, but that's where I started to get really confused. If the Vale's the setting then the action should be focused there, no?

Inarius
2009-08-31, 11:19 PM
Im assuming the vale exports metals and the like so the elves have the tools and weapons they need to log, hunt and protect themselves.

My bigger concern would be Firepoint. It just seems that control over the main raw materials for building and tool/weapon crafting doesnt seem to be enough of an economic clout for them to have over everyone. If they withold those materials, the other towns and cities food output would dimish which would make them have less food to trade to Firepoint anyway. In effect cutting off trade seems like a good way for Firepoint to commit suicide rather than to browbeat other towns/cities into doing what they want.

Its a different story if Firepoint can use their armies to back up the threat of a trade war, but with the limited travel and the massive undead threat beneath the city it doesnt seem plausible. I guess the best way to give Firepoint the power it seems to have would be to increase the undead danger further, to force the other towns to want to keep Firepoint afloat at all costs.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-08-31, 11:24 PM
A. One issue I noticed is your treatment of gods in different parts of the document.

The section on Gods and Churches outlines six gods and their associated sub-churches and makes them sound pretty exclusive but your section on the different cities mostly references the gods from the standard D&D campaign. In Firepoint the example of religious practice is the Church of Pelor, Narsopath is built around a race that worships the Raven Queen and the Dwarves in Thornspire worship Moradin.

If both cosmologies are going to co-exist in the world It would be helpful to outline their interaction.
That's simply because when we initially created this setting, we used the standard D&D cosmology, but now that we're giving it a makeover and rebooting it, we're making our own pantheon for it. My co-author is in the process of revising it.

B. Also someone has mentioned it before but the nature, size and quantity of Rose pathways will be hugely determinative of how war is fought between cities.

If there are only a few pathways large enough for an army to march -- that highly favors defenders because there are fewer access points to defend.

Carving through the thorns seems impractical for several reasons.
1) Risk of manpower to manipulation.
2) The thorns regrow after about 24 hours. This has several implications
a) you need a dedicated force to keep the path way open otherwise
b) a supply chain is impossible (making sieges difficult/impossible)
c) retreat is not an option

Aggressive cities might seek to attack through neutral cities if it allows them to attack from an unanticipated direction or some other strategic advantage.

Can these rose pathways be blocked or destroyed by a city that is desperate enough?My co-author hasn't mentioned if there are roseways big enough to move an army through, or glades other than the ones where the cities are. I suppose the roseways could be blocked, but shutting them down is impossible, since the Thorns control when and where the roseways are, not the people.


C. Alternative travel.

There appear to be several rivers on the map. Are these rivers safe to travel on? How far does the influence of the thorns extend? There might be some important trade done by riverboat if they are usable.

Similarly, the Adventurer's Vault suggests methods of potential air travel for PC's (Ornithopters, Airships) how do these play into the setting. Do they exist in the vale?

Finally there is also the issue of portals. How available are they. Do portals exist in every church or only in the deepest reaches of the labyrinth? The more widely available they are the less likely that wealthy individuals are going to travel via the pathways and the less of a threat the thorns are to players.The rivers, as far as I can tell, are safe. The only real reason they're there is because I mentioned the Vale would need some source of potable water. I'm trying to figure out how the rivers would get started though, since the only point of origin they'd have would be the Thornspire.

As it was said before, the concept of air-travel wasn't discussed yet. I'm fairly certain it would be the best way to travel if it were there though. Easy access to where you need to go, and you could bomb the cities. But then Firepoint would lose the strategic benefits of its location, since the flyers could just bypass it.

Portals, I am also not sure about. I'd assume the Labyrinth has them, but when I talk about entrances to the Labyrinth I'm not talking about portals. Remember that lame Legend of Zelda cartoon with the secret "Underworld Entrances" all over the place, where there were stairs leading down to the dungeons in Hyrule? It's like that. The entrances to the Labyrinth aren't magical or teleportation devices. They're basically the tops of tall towers or buildings that weren't destroyed in the Fall, and now provide the only access to the buried city, short of digging a deep hole.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-09-01, 09:41 AM
I'm not sure what else to look at. Another thing that the document hasn't mentioned is the kalashtar, which live in fortress-temples that dot the Vale, and they're not on the map because they try to keep hidden. Like the changelings, they're fugitives from Avock, and they don't want to be found.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-09-01, 12:59 PM
Oh, and the setting has guns.

Jothki
2009-09-01, 03:34 PM
Do all glades have a roseway connection to the main network?

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-09-01, 03:36 PM
I think that's the idea, yes. Kind of like ponds and lakes connect with streams into bigger rivers.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-09-02, 08:35 PM
I've been pondering some suggestions to make to my co-author, now that he's back from Wales, namely modelling some of the "civilizations." Since there are guns in the setting, a medieval Europe culture clearly won't work. Places like Firepoint should be at least Rennaisance-level in terms of technology and the like.

I also thought an interesting think about the dragonborn and halflings. What if the dragonborn and halflings lived in a Mesoamerican-style civilization, the dragonborn being the warrior, priest and ruling classes while the halflings made up the working class and the farmers. They wouldn't have access to guns, but would have superior farming compared to their neighbors. The halflings would look to the dragonborn as liberators who freed them from oppression at the hands of the Thorns or some other evil. No sentient sacrifices though. That just makes me queasy.

As for the kalashtar, they live in their temple-fortresses and are very isolationist. Would it be okay to make them similar to the Feudal Japanese?

Just sort of bouncing these ideas off to see what kind of response they get.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-09-02, 11:28 PM
:smallconfused:...So basically no response?

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-09-03, 09:29 PM
Anybody there?

Thane of Fife
2009-09-04, 09:19 AM
How big is the Vale? (EDIT: About 30,000 square miles - about the size of Scotland) It seems a bit odd having so many distinct cultures intermingling with each other.

On top of which, I feel like your population levels are somewhat high - Firepoint has 50,000 people in it? That seems like a lot for such an inhospitable area.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-09-04, 10:14 AM
I have no idea how demographics and populations work, so I have no clue what to do about numbers. Any advice? The first idea would be to make the Vale bigger, but wouldn't that necessitate more cities? Also, if our plan for a final boss is to animate all the Thorns into a giant wicker-Godzilla avatar thing, then it'd probably be impossible to fight, since I don't think even Colossal would be able to handle how huge such a monstrosity would be.

But you're right. A place with this many cultures interacting should be as big as the Roman Empire at the very least. But I have no idea what effect that would have on the geography. It'd definatly allow us to put in more mountains so we can do away with the silly "magic regenerating mountain" stuff though.

Thane of Fife
2009-09-04, 01:35 PM
I can't help too much with demographics because your situation is a bit bizarre - you have no real room for villages, you're in an extremely dangerous area, etc. I just know that 50,000 is almost certainly too many.

In general, I'd say that you should perhaps lower your populations (10-20,000 for Firepoint strikes me as more reasonable, but that's just an estimate). Multiple cultures can work if they all come from elsewhere, or if they're forcibly from population movement. Different religions could easily mean different cultures, and different races could certainly have an effect, but having representatives of widely-spread Earth cultures could be weird.

I don't know how much help it could be, but have you seen this (http://www.io.com/~sjohn/demog.htm)? It does assume villages and farms and such, though.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-09-04, 02:33 PM
One thing my co-author and I have discussed is including smaller glades that aren't shown on the map which include villages and farms. I think throughout the thread I've been giving the impression that the entire population is concentrated in the major cities, but that isn't exactly true and certainly not realistic. If I remember correctly, city-states have smaller villages that they get tribute from, like the slave colony at Laurion, which supplied silver to Athens. That's sort of what I think my co-author means is the situation in the Vale. There are many more glades, but if we listed every tiny farming village on the map there'd be too many words on it and it'd look less like a map and more like a disorganized list.