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View Full Version : Using items to get into PrC's....



Paganboy28
2009-08-31, 06:09 AM
I have seen a few builds which use items to get into PrC's. Is this really in the spirit of the rules?

What happens if that item gets taken away? Do you loose all the PrC's abilities until you can actually meet the requirements with you character?


Things like using the Chausible of Fell Power (the warlock thing) to get the +2d6 eldritch blast for the Eldritch Theurge... so you can enter at level 1 warlock.

How does a level 1 warlock afford a Chausible of Fell Power!?!?!


It may be strictly doable by RAW but I don't think its in the Spirit of the Rules (SotR).

Deliverance
2009-08-31, 06:19 AM
I have seen a few builds which use items to get into PrC's. Is this really in the spirit of the rules?

I have absolutely no idea if this is technically legal by sufficiently misinterpreting the rules or getting a camel through a needle's eye with judicious use of +10 Boots of Buttkicking while everybody looks away, but within the spirit of the rules and character development, no way.

However, I am old fashioned, stuck in the mindset of pre 3.0 editions, and think of PrC's in terms of character development that's supposed to make sense when you pick up new classes rather than a "pick your own build maximized for power", so my opinion can easily be ignored on this issue. :)

Yuki Akuma
2009-08-31, 06:27 AM
Woe betide he who uses a magic item to get into a PrC and gets hit with a Disjunction.

(Also no it's really not in the spirit of the rules..)

Yora
2009-08-31, 06:30 AM
I sometimes allow it, but only with items that provide a permanent, always active bonus. Like putting on your gloves of dexterity when waking up and wearing them until you go to bed, to get the Dex 15 to qualify for two weapon fighting.

But certainly not with items that have instantaneous effects or limited uses per day.
If you'd do that, every 1st level spellcaster would qualify for "casting 7th level spell" with a scroll.

Melamoto
2009-08-31, 06:31 AM
You can use items to get into feats from what I know as well; and those feats to get into PrCs. And no, it is not in the spirit of the game at all.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-08-31, 06:41 AM
Is it in the spirit of the rules? No. Could it make for some interesting stories if not done solely with the intent to make cheese? Sure.

Myou
2009-08-31, 06:50 AM
I'd just laugh if a player tried that on me.

I might even let them, then see to it that the item was stolen. I wouldn't really, but it would be oh so tempting.

Unwitting Pawn
2009-08-31, 06:54 AM
Can I comment on this as a gamer in general, albeit a non-D&D player? :smallredface:

Spirit of the rules? I don't know, but I would strongly hope not.

My fair-play radar is screaming "foul" at the sound of this, but I may be wrong there :smallyuk:

Do to my ignorance, I'm approaching this not so much from a crunch perspective, as from an angle of how things might work within the setting and a general consideration of fair-play.

Looking at this from a setting aspect, it prob depends in part on how the PrC powers/abilities/etc are granted on a metaphysical level as well as on a social level. Does anyone who wants to be a level 1 Warlock (provided that they met the requirements) get taught their new abilities by a higher-level Warlock? Are they granted by a god, demon or other higher/lower power? Or is the entry requirement merely necessarily to bypass an inanimate magical barrier/trap that prevents the unworthy from accessing the Forgotten Library of Warlockistan(tm)?

If something like the last example, than as much as it would seem "unfair" to me, I would have to allow it, because the character has the means (however artificial) to bypass the obstacle to the PrC. However, I suspect that in most cases the would-be PrC entrant is required to meet the "minimum spec" to prove they are worthy of becoming that PrC in the first place.

It seems to me that no self-respecting higher-level PrC teacher (or the God of PrC granting the powers) is going to do so if the entrant isn't capable of meeting the requirements through their own natural capabilities without outside help.

Even in a case where anyone can access the library and "teach" themselves the PrC through their own self-study, those requirements will prob be necessary because without them the person doesn't have the knowledge/ability to manipulate the PrC powers correctly. An item that grants an ability, just grants that ability - you don't "know" how to have that ability within yourself, and if that knowledge is required as the basis of understanding how to use PrC powers, then an item-user would be out-of-luck I'd say!

Kelpstrand
2009-08-31, 08:02 AM
Not only is it in the Spirit of the rules, it is also in the actual rules.

See Complete Warrior, in which it is explained under "Meeting Class Requirements":

"It's possible for a character to take levels in a prestige class and later be in a position where the character no longer qualifies to be a member of the class. An alignment change, levels lost because of character death, or the loss of a magic item that granted an important ability are examples of events that can make a character ineligible to advance farther in a prestige class.

If a character no longer meets the requirements for a Prestige class, he or she loses the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by the class. The character retains Hit Dice from advancing in the class as well as any improvements to base attack bonus and base save bonuses that the class provided."

Random832
2009-08-31, 08:08 AM
How does a level 1 warlock afford a Chausible of Fell Power!?!?!

By multiclassing, and WBL as normal - the point being that you only need one level of warlock.

Unwitting Pawn
2009-08-31, 08:16 AM
Not only is it in the Spirit of the rules, it is also in the actual rules.

See Complete Warrior, in which it is explained under "Meeting Class Requirements":

"It's possible for a character to take levels in a prestige class and later be in a position where the character no longer qualifies to be a member of the class. An alignment change, levels lost because of character death, or the loss of a magic item that granted an important ability are examples of events that can make a character ineligible to advance farther in a prestige class.

If a character no longer meets the requirements for a Prestige class, he or she loses the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by the class. The character retains Hit Dice from advancing in the class as well as any improvements to base attack bonus and base save bonuses that the class provided."

Well, that seems pretty definitive then, from a rules perspective. Which is all well and good, except I wonder about the consequences. How many DMs would have the balls to take away the toy that breaks the character's PrC abilities?

bosssmiley
2009-08-31, 08:35 AM
I have seen a few builds which use items to get into PrC's. Is this really in the spirit of the rules?

It would fail the DM's Eyebrow test in my neck of the woods ( :smallconfused: ). YGMV.

Kylarra
2009-08-31, 08:37 AM
Well, that seems pretty definitive then, from a rules perspective. Which is all well and good, except I wonder about the consequences. How many DMs would have the balls to take away the toy that breaks the character's PrC abilities?

It's like an Item familiar. :smalltongue:

Kelpstrand
2009-08-31, 08:37 AM
Well you shouldn't, and if you do, you have to give them equivalent WBL, which they can just sell and get it back.

The point is that a character with a Ring of Evasion and a class that grants Evasion is supposed to have their class abilities 95% of the time or more. This isn't Gygaxian days any more. You aren't trying to screw your characters. If they need an item to be a level appropriate character, then they should have the item.

Unwitting Pawn
2009-08-31, 09:06 AM
It's like an Item familiar. :smalltongue:

Sorry, I'm not sure I understand the reference. My ignorance of D&D might be letting me down here :smallwink:

Kylarra
2009-08-31, 09:10 AM
Sorry, I'm not sure I understand the reference. My ignorance of D&D might be letting me down here :smallwink:An item familiar is an overpowered feat (massive skill bonuses, +10% exp, etc) that is theoretically balanced by the fact that if you lose it, you lose all the bonuses and the exp and such that you invested in it.

Of course, in practice, doing so gimps the character utterly and completely and thus isn't really a "danger".


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm

Unwitting Pawn
2009-08-31, 09:20 AM
The point is that a character with a Ring of Evasion and a class that grants Evasion is supposed to have their class abilities 95% of the time or more. This isn't Gygaxian days any more. You aren't trying to screw your characters. If they need an item to be a level appropriate character, then they should have the item.

OK, I can understand this to a certain extent. But just because the item is taken away from the PC, doesn't mean that is necessarily a permanent state of affairs.

I guess my angle was this: If (hypothetically speaking) a character needs the Evasion ability, it's up to the GM to either provide an item that grants this power, or allow the character to learn/develop/whatever the ability in a way that makes it innate to the character.

If the GM is agreed that the character will never be deprived of this ability in future (however temporarily), then why not simply grant the ability in a way that makes it innate? That seems more honest to me.

Unwitting Pawn
2009-08-31, 09:23 AM
An item familiar is an overpowered feat (massive skill bonuses, +10% exp, etc) that is theoretically balanced by the fact that if you lose it, you lose all the bonuses and the exp and such that you invested in it.

Of course, in practice, doing so gimps the character utterly and completely and thus isn't really a "danger".


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm

Great! thx for the explanation.

You've just confirmed my fears, though :smallbiggrin:

shadow_archmagi
2009-08-31, 09:25 AM
PC loses ALL prestige class features?!

"Ah, curses, without my ring of dodge, I am no longer able to take advantage of those glider-piloting lessons I took! Everyone, we're going to crash! At least, I think we are. I really don't know anything about this contraption without my ring. "

CapnVan
2009-08-31, 09:27 AM
This isn't Gygaxian days any more. You aren't trying to screw your characters.

Speak fer yerself...:belkar:

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-31, 09:29 AM
Not only is it in the Spirit of the rules, it is also in the actual rules.

See Complete Warrior, in which it is explained under "Meeting Class Requirements":

"It's possible for a character to take levels in a prestige class and later be in a position where the character no longer qualifies to be a member of the class. An alignment change, levels lost because of character death, or the loss of a magic item that granted an important ability are examples of events that can make a character ineligible to advance farther in a prestige class.

If a character no longer meets the requirements for a Prestige class, he or she loses the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by the class. The character retains Hit Dice from advancing in the class as well as any improvements to base attack bonus and base save bonuses that the class provided."


This is the reason people rate Complete Warrior higher than Complete Psionic: It actually enables weaker classes to do something rather than nerfing everyone equally (note that CW, CP, and RoE are considered three of the worst splats printed for 3.5).

Paganboy28
2009-08-31, 09:34 AM
The point is that a character with a Ring of Evasion and a class that grants Evasion is supposed to have their class abilities 95% of the time or more. This isn't Gygaxian days any more. You aren't trying to screw your characters. If they need an item to be a level appropriate character, then they should have the item.


Oh dear, I feel that some people at going not to like this but hey.

If you are a character that just can't get by without a particular item than more fool you. If you loose/break any item then you should not throw your toys out of the pram.

As I see it items are there to be used and abused both by players and the DM. If an item for a character gets stolen then so be it, if they lose it as they fal down a pit or such then again so be it.

It's all part of the roleplay fun of the game. It's not World of Warcraft, or any other computer game where you can't lose items, or "need" an item to be effective.

Losing an item can become the start of a whole series of quests where you have to go and retrieve your beloved item.


As for Ring of Evasion = the Evasion ability.... Completely utterly NO NO NO.

You can loose a ring of evasion... you cannot lose the evasion ability.



By multiclassing, and WBL as normal - the point being that you only need one level of warlock.

Which ever way you do it (and the example was just 1 level of warlock, 1 level of wizard then 10 levels eldritch theurge), its just not in the spirit of the game and its using the rules against such. Any sensible DM would laugh and not allow this.

Allowing this opens the door to loads of item abuse. Who cares about PrC requirements... I have a scroll of X....

kamikasei
2009-08-31, 09:36 AM
This is the reason people rate Complete Warrior higher than Complete Psionic: It actually enables weaker classes to do something rather than nerfing everyone equally (note that CW, CP, and RoE are considered three of the worst splats printed for 3.5).

RoE? Races of Eberron? I'd not heard that before, what's the issue with it?

(Sorry to go off on a tangent, I'll fork this into its own thread if the answer is involved.)

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-31, 09:53 AM
RoE? Races of Eberron? I'd not heard that before, what's the issue with it?

(Sorry to go off on a tangent, I'll fork this into its own thread if the answer is involved.)

Mainly the lack of feats usable outside of an Eberron campaign (almost all of the feats are Racial, with only a handful for Warforged and the majority of the feats going towards Shifters), lack of good PrCs (Atavist, Reachrunner, Reforged, and Spellcarved Soldier are all very poor PrCs for their entry requirements), the fact that 102 pages of a 192 splat book was devoted to reprinting races and publishing fluff without presenting new mechanics for those races (RoS, RotW, RoD, and RotD all managed to introduce new and interesting subraces while giving proper support to those races and their existing predecessors).

In all, the book ended up being a 90 page expansion pack to the ECS. You still had to pay for the full 192 pages, but got less in return for your investment. Races of Faerun had the same problems, but due to FR fanboys that splat doesn't get mentioned much in such polls.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-31, 09:56 AM
I have seen a few builds which use items to get into PrC's. Is this really in the spirit of the rules?

What happens if that item gets taken away? Do you loose all the PrC's abilities until you can actually meet the requirements with you character?

Ok, now to the best of my knowledge, the FAQ says that you can use items to get into Prestige Classes, but if you lose the item, you lose the ability to qualify (assuming you hadn't picked up the ability to qualify in the meantime) and may lose benefits from the PrC - it depends on the Ex-Whatever entry in the PrC description.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-31, 09:58 AM
Ok, now to the best of my knowledge, the FAQ says that you can use items to get into Prestige Classes, but if you lose the item, you lose the ability to qualify (assuming you hadn't picked up the ability to qualify in the meantime) and may lose benefits from the PrC - it depends on the Ex-Whatever entry in the PrC description.

The actual rule has been quoted and appears in Complete Warrior, not the FAQ. See above.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-31, 10:00 AM
Sinfire can see the post that I missed, but can he see why kids like Cinnamon Toast Crunch?

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-31, 10:01 AM
Sinfire can see the pos tthat I missed, but can he see why kids like Cinnamon Toast Crunch?

Captain Crunch stabbed out my eyes. I haven't had cereal ever since.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-08-31, 10:04 AM
Oh dear, I feel that some people at going not to like this but hey.

If you are a character that just can't get by without a particular item than more fool you. If you loose/break any item then you should not throw your toys out of the pram.

As I see it items are there to be used and abused both by players and the DM. If an item for a character gets stolen then so be it, if they lose it as they fal down a pit or such then again so be it.

It's all part of the roleplay fun of the game. It's not World of Warcraft, or any other computer game where you can't lose items, or "need" an item to be effective.

Losing an item can become the start of a whole series of quests where you have to go and retrieve your beloved item.

+100. If someone is foolish enough to have a single item that is extremely important to them (whether to qualify for PrCs or otherwise) and you don't take excessive care to protect it, then that's your problem. It's not "Gygaxian" in any way to have the item be threatened, it's completely logical.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-08-31, 10:06 AM
Though that is certainly true, having only that item be threatened and avoiding threatening the other players' items, especially when the "cheating" PC makes no outward indication that said item is especially important, can reduce verisimilitude. In short, if you're going to do that, do that to everyone, not just the PrC early-qualifier.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-31, 10:08 AM
+100. If someone is foolish enough to have a single item that is extremely important to them (whether to qualify for PrCs or otherwise) and you don't take excessive care to protect it, then that's your problem. It's not "Gygaxian" in any way to have the item be threatened, it's completely logical.

ONLY IF THEY ARE AWARE THAT THE ITEM IS GIVING THAT PLAYER HIS CLASS FEATURES, INFORMATION MOST ENEMIES WON'T HAVE.


Do I need to spell it out? If the DM is metagaming so that half of the thieves in the world are aware that a PC is less of a threat if his key item is stolen, then the DM is being a poor sport and needs to stop.

Steward
2009-08-31, 10:11 AM
It could be an inspiring way to close out a campaign.

"Oh no! Without my Power Ring, I am now only a level 6 wizard instead of an Epic Level Mystic Theurge! I have no hope of defeating that evil Pun-Pun and saving my village tomorrow night?!"

"You are wrong, young hero! The power was inside you the whole time! You never needed the ring!"

"...it's true! I HAVE THE POWER!"

He then gets squashed by the Pun-Pun tomorrow night, because jeez that's a broken build.

Paganboy28
2009-08-31, 10:11 AM
Though that is certainly true, having only that item be threatened and avoiding threatening the other players' items, especially when the "cheating" PC makes no outward indication that said item is especially important, can reduce verisimilitude. In short, if you're going to do that, do that to everyone, not just the PrC early-qualifier.

"Early qualifier" in the loosest sense of the word....


"hey Mr Venger, I got an Arsenal T-shirt, some funky boots and my old gym shorts. Does this mean I now qualify as a professional football player?"

Unwitting Pawn
2009-08-31, 10:12 AM
If the item is never going to be at risk, then why is it necessary for the item to be the source of the power?

If the power has "plot protection" then it shouldn't be in the form of item, surely? It should be innate to the character.

Teron
2009-08-31, 10:13 AM
Mainly the lack of feats usable outside of an Eberron campaign (almost all of the feats are Racial, with only a handful for Warforged and the majority of the feats going towards Shifters), lack of good PrCs (Atavist, Reachrunner, Reforged, and Spellcarved Soldier are all very poor PrCs for their entry requirements), the fact that 102 pages of a 192 splat book was devoted to reprinting races and publishing fluff without presenting new mechanics for those races (RoS, RotW, RoD, and RotD all managed to introduce new and interesting subraces while giving proper support to those races and their existing predecessors).

In all, the book ended up being a 90 page expansion pack to the ECS. You still had to pay for the full 192 pages, but got less in return for your investment. Races of Faerun had the same problems, but due to FR fanboys that splat doesn't get mentioned much in such polls.
On top of that, the fluff wasn't particularly good outside the kalashtar section. Thoroughly underwhelming book.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-08-31, 10:15 AM
Due to the used book market, this is ambiguous. Don't be a fool and snap up every book as soon as possible; there are WotC fanboys to do that. I bought Tome of Magic on eBay for the cost of a fistful of quarters. Easily worth the price of the Binding section, and having the Shadow Magic and Truenaming padding isn't shabby.

Steward
2009-08-31, 10:17 AM
Due to the used book market, this is ambiguous. Don't be a fool and snap up every book as soon as possible; there are WotC fanboys to do that. I bought Tome of Magic on eBay for the cost of a fistful of quarters. Easily worth the price of the Binding section, and having the Shadow Magic and Truenaming padding isn't shabby.

I saw a public service announcement that said that reselling books was exactly the same as beating an old lady into a coma and stealing her wallet. Just something to think about. :biggrin:

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-31, 10:17 AM
On top of that, the fluff wasn't particularly good outside the kalashtar section. Thoroughly underwhelming book.

Some of the Warforged stuff was entertaining to me. The feats could have been much better though. They could have at least errata'ed Adamantine Body to give your Slam attack the ability to bypass DR/Adamantine.

quick_comment
2009-08-31, 10:19 AM
Some of the Warforged stuff was entertaining to me. The feats could have been much better though. They could have at least errata'ed Adamantine Body to give your Slam attack the ability to bypass DR/Adamantine.

I thought as a general rule, creatures with DR/X can bypass that DR unless their entry says otherwise (like solars and DR/Evil)

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-31, 10:21 AM
I thought as a general rule, creatures with DR/X can bypass that DR unless their entry says otherwise (like solars and DR/Evil)

That only applies to DR/Magic and DR/Epic. Creatures with those DR types can overcome DR/Magic or Epic as though their natural weapons and weapons they wield were enchanted, as appropriate for each type.

Person_Man
2009-08-31, 10:21 AM
I've observed that people most often propose this workaround when the pre-req sucks - Dodge, Mobility, etc. A better workaround would be to remove stupid pre-reqs.

Paganboy28
2009-08-31, 10:23 AM
If the item is never going to be at risk, then why is it necessary for the item to be the source of the power?

If the power has "plot protection" then it shouldn't be in the form of item, surely? It should be innate to the character.


Going by this then, if items have "plot protection" just because players have then, then any item they wear/own now becomes a spell-like ability, or supernatural ability, or etc....

Paganboy28
2009-08-31, 10:29 AM
ONLY IF THEY ARE AWARE THAT THE ITEM IS GIVING THAT PLAYER HIS CLASS FEATURES, INFORMATION MOST ENEMIES WON'T HAVE.


Do I need to spell it out? If the DM is metagaming so that half of the thieves in the world are aware that a PC is less of a threat if his key item is stolen, then the DM is being a poor sport and needs to stop.

Oh waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.:smallfrown::smallfrown::smallyu k:

You mean you're a wizard and someone actually thought that it might be a good idea to hire someone to steal your spellbook!?

Oh my god, how ever did the NPC lich not think of that.... tsk you would have thought a few thousand years of experience he might have learnt a thing or two.

Or... hmm that warrior is mighty powerful with his big shiny armour and uber-massive sword of flaming death. No... lets not think about taking those items because that would be a good and sensible way to make it easier for us, the aforementioned bad guys.

It does not take a genius to work out either of these things. PC's need to sleep (unless they are not your normal races) and so are vulnerable if they rely too heavily on big uber items and don't bother to think about protecting them.

It's not metagaming, otherwise everything the DM does becomes metagaming... oh the DM put a trap in our way. How dare he... A golem fighting a caster! Surely not... how can the bad guys know to use golems against a caster....

Unwitting Pawn
2009-08-31, 10:31 AM
Going by this then, if items have "plot protection" just because players have then, then any item they wear/own now becomes a spell-like ability, or supernatural ability, or etc....

That wasn't what I was saying. What I was trying to say is that items get lost/broken/etc in real life and this can happen in adventure stories too. Are you trying to tell me that as GM, you'd never let this happens to any players' items? Or only mundane ones, and if so, why the distinction?

Foryn Gilnith
2009-08-31, 10:31 AM
That's exactly why your Ring of Dodge, which got you into your prestige class, shouldn't be stolen. Your spellbook, your big flaming sword, or your Drakehelm are far more attractive targets for anyone that hasn't been stalking you for the last 10 levels (literally). There's no reason to suspect that a little feat-granting jewelry or whatever should be more important than a large spellbook or an ornate crown/helm.

woodenbandman
2009-08-31, 10:39 AM
To me it depends on the PrC in question. If the PrC is super awesome and they want to avoid the entry feats, then no. If the PrC is made super lame by its entry requirements, then yes.

Unwitting Pawn
2009-08-31, 10:40 AM
That's exactly why your Ring of Dodge, which got you into your prestige class, shouldn't be stolen. Your spellbook, your big flaming sword, or your Drakehelm are far more attractive targets for anyone that hasn't been stalking you for the last 10 levels (literally). There's no reason to suspect that a little feat-granting jewelry or whatever should be more important than a large spellbook or an ornate crown/helm.

Sure, the Ring of Dodge may well be a less obvious/attractive target in most cases. I can agree with that, but that's different from saying it should NEVER be a target.

If as GM I'm saying that an ability should never ever be taken away from a PC (even in an extreme case such as being captured, strip-searched and deprived of all their toys) then I would have to say that the PC have the ability/power innately rather than through an item. And as GM, I would grant the power in such a non-physical form.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-31, 10:42 AM
Oh waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.:smallfrown::smallfrown::smallyu k:

You mean you're a wizard and someone actually thought that it might be a good idea to hire someone to steal your spellbook!?

Oh my god, how ever did the NPC lich not think of that.... tsk you would have thought a few thousand years of experience he might have learnt a thing or two.

Or... hmm that warrior is mighty powerful with his big shiny armour and uber-massive sword of flaming death. No... lets not think about taking those items because that would be a good and sensible way to make it easier for us, the aforementioned bad guys.

It does not take a genius to work out either of these things. PC's need to sleep (unless they are not your normal races) and so are vulnerable if they rely too heavily on big uber items and don't bother to think about protecting them.

It's not metagaming, otherwise everything the DM does becomes metagaming... oh the DM put a trap in our way. How dare he... A golem fighting a caster! Surely not... how can the bad guys know to use golems against a caster....

Question: How the hell is a Rogue going to know that a Folucian Lyricist is completely powerless without his Ring of Evasion, a magic item so innocuous that only sheer metagaming is going to tell them it's important unless the player is being an idiot?

Yes, the Spellbook, Armor, and Weapon instances make sense. It does not make sense for the Lich to target a ring, an item that has a passive ability and is nigh impossible to remove against the wearer's will (barring Epic abilities, but I never count those, and a single 8th level domain spell that was specifically designed to steal unattended items). How is the Assassin supposed to know that his target is wearing a Belt of Magnificence? Or is only able to qualify for feats because of said belt?

Feats and PrC qualifications are a metagame concept. Enemies are not aware what feats their opponents have through any in-character means. There's no possible way to tell a Fighter has Combat Focus or Blind Fight or Improved Initiative. It's likewise impossible for a character to know that the only way the Fighter is qualifying for Combat Focus is because his Wisdom score is being boosted by a magic item, and that stealing said item removes his ability to use that feat.

This same concept applies to PrCs. I think the best example would be Legacy Champion or Reverent Blade, both of which require a magic item in order to qualify. No one should be able to tell the PC has levels in Legacy Champion because it's abilities are static, and nigh undetectable.

It does not make sense for enemies to know about these abilities.

Paganboy28
2009-08-31, 10:43 AM
That wasn't what I was saying. What I was trying to say is that items get lost/broken/etc in real life and this can happen in adventure stories too. Are you trying to tell me that as GM, you'd never let this happens to any players' items? Or only mundane ones, and if so, why the distinction?

I'm all for PC's losing/having stolen/breaking items, mundane, magical or otherwise. No distinction necessary.


That's exactly why your Ring of Dodge, which got you into your prestige class, shouldn't be stolen. Your spellbook, your big flaming sword, or your Drakehelm are far more attractive targets for anyone that hasn't been stalking you for the last 10 levels (literally). There's no reason to suspect that a little feat-granting jewelry or whatever should be more important than a large spellbook or an ornate crown/helm.

Its a risk you take doing it this "broken cheesy" way. Rings are easier to transport and steal than big flaming swords. Rings are shiny and nice targets. As are amulets, bracelets, and any other jewelry.

Yuki Akuma
2009-08-31, 10:45 AM
If the item is never going to be at risk, then why is it necessary for the item to be the source of the power?

If the power has "plot protection" then it shouldn't be in the form of item, surely? It should be innate to the character.

I'm not quite sure you know what this thread is about.

It's about people using magic items that grant a specific ability to qualify for other abilities they don't normally qualify for. Thus, if they lose the item, they cease to qualify for their new abilities and lose them.

Once they qualify again - by buying a new Ring of Evasion, or just taking the two damn levels of Rogue - they get the abilities back.

Teron
2009-08-31, 10:48 AM
I've observed that people most often propose this workaround when the pre-req sucks - Dodge, Mobility, etc. A better workaround would be to remove stupid pre-reqs.
While they're rarely used that way intentionally, bad pre-reqs can justify a PrC being a bit stronger than the base class for which it's intended, so they theoretically have some merit.


Its a risk you take doing it this "broken cheesy" way. Rings are easier to transport and steal than big flaming swords. Rings are shiny and nice targets. As are amulets, bracelets, and any other jewelry.
Easier to steal right off the PC's finger? It's not like he'll ever take it off. Antimagic fields are a more realistic, if temporary threat, and of course there's Mordenkainen's disjunction if you're a jerk.

Unwitting Pawn
2009-08-31, 10:50 AM
I'm all for PC's losing/having stolen/breaking items, mundane, magical or otherwise. No distinction necessary.

Seems we agree then.


Its a risk you take doing it this "broken cheesy" way. Rings are easier to transport and steal than big flaming swords. Rings are shiny and nice targets. As are amulets, bracelets, and any other jewelry.

Heh, tell Foryn Gilnith, not me :smallwink:

Foryn Gilnith
2009-08-31, 10:50 AM
It does not make sense for the Lich to target a ring, an item that has a passive ability and is nigh impossible to remove against the wearer's will (barring Epic abilities, but I never count those, and a single 8th level domain spell that was specifically designed to steal unattended items).

A ring is virtually impossible to get off a fellow, as Sinfire mentioned. A jewel-encrusted helm (pry off the jewels if you're looking for portability), an amulet (cut the string, the magic will be fine), or an expensive-looking monocle (just hide it until you're far away enough to fence it) are again, more appealing targets.

Also, you can wear as many damn rings as you like. Makes it a lot harder for a thief to pick the right one. If your ring of evasion is so important to you, you might as well stick Magic Aura on most of them too, or buy actual magic rings and simply have them inactive.


Heh, tell Foryn Gilnith, not me :smallwink:

Yeah, somebody not following the thread might have been quite confused. :smallwink:

PS: This is specifically for the example of rings. An Amulet of Evasion is fair game, and a Chausble of Fell Power is practically begging a BBEG to steal it and disqualify you from your PrC. Rings are simply an unusual and special case.

Unwitting Pawn
2009-08-31, 11:01 AM
I'm not quite sure you know what this thread is about.

I think I do. Pls read my earlier posts to see why the discussion went in that direction, rather than just responding to one quote out of context. :smallsmile:


It's about people using magic items that grant a specific ability to qualify for other abilities they don't normally qualify for. Thus, if they lose the item, they cease to qualify for their new abilities and lose them.

Actually, the OP was asking opinions on whether or not this was legal and/or in the spirit of the rules.


Once they qualify again - by buying a new Ring of Evasion, or just taking the two damn levels of Rogue - they get the abilities back.

Which is fine. I won't disagree with you here. However, some seem to be of the opinion that if a PrC prereq is being met by an item, then the DM should never, ever take that item away, because depriving the PC of their PrC, however temporarily, was a bad thing to do. I was challenging that.

Paganboy28
2009-08-31, 11:04 AM
I think I do. Pls read my earlier posts to see why the discussion went in that direction, rather than just responding to one quote out of context. :smallsmile:



Actually, the OP was asking opinions on whether or not this was legal and/or in the spirit of the rules.



Which is fine. I won't disagree with you here. However, some seem to be of the opinion that if a PrC prereq is being met by an item, then the DM should never, ever take that item away, because depriving the PC of their PrC, however temporarily, was a bad thing to do. I was challenging that.



Exactly. That is what was being said.

Kelpstrand
2009-08-31, 12:11 PM
1) Thanks for having a two page argument because nobody in the entire thread knows what "90%" means. It makes me feel special.

2) Once again, I am assuming basic competence of players. If they go around handing their rings to people to hold for them, yes they lose it. If they go around wearing their magic ring, sleeping in Rope Tricks, and with guards, and otherwise discouraging thieves, it doesn't get stolen.

If an item is grants a pre req, your enemies aren't going to know that it does so. They aren't going to target it over your face, which they can chop off just as easily.

If through some unfortunate and rare circumstances you lose your Ring of Evasion, you darn well go buy a new one.

If you want to have magic items that have plot protection, you still have a reason to make it a magic item, because then it costs money. I've homebrewed feats that exist for the specific purpose of granting your items plot protection, and come with associated disadvantages too.

That's the point. Items exist, Items are often valid targets, but very rarely viable targets, as such, enemies will usually attempt to sunder your face before they sunder your Ring.

And if they do sunder your ring, you kill them, pick up their +5 Adamantium Battle Axe, sell it, and use the proceeds to go buy a new ring.

Unwitting Pawn
2009-08-31, 12:16 PM
1) Thanks for having a two page argument because nobody in the entire thread knows what "90%" means.

It's the same as 8/10ths isn't it? :smallconfused:


It makes me feel special.

No problem :smallsmile:

Say, you look just like that other guy....are you actually two different people? :smallwink:

Kelpstrand
2009-08-31, 12:23 PM
Say, you look just like that other guy....are you actually two different people? :smallwink:

I just like arguing with myself.

Also...

There really need to be more Druid icons. Druids are awesome. Preferably a tiny bat with a Dinosaur next to them.

Jack Zander
2009-08-31, 12:28 PM
I just like arguing with myself.

Also...

There really need to be more Druid icons. Druids are awesome. Preferably a tiny bat with a Dinosaur next to them.

Ask around on some of the boards here. Many people like creating avatars for others as long as they are given credit.