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View Full Version : How does Dragonfire Inspiration work, exactly?



Quietus
2009-08-31, 12:15 PM
Unfortunately, I haven't got access to my Dragon Magic copy right now, so I can't look up what prerequisites it has... a good bit of google-fu has suggested that you need to have the Dragonblood subtype, and that the only way to get that is through a feat that requires a level of Sorcerer, or a template. Of course, there's dragonborn, but ... from what I've read on these forums, that doesn't seem right.

Say one of my players wants to play a Dragonfire Inspiration bard. What would she have to do in order to do so as a human?

quick_comment
2009-08-31, 12:18 PM
Dragon Magic has dragonblooded racial variants. The dragonblooded human (called a silverbrow human) gives up the extra skill point per level in exchange for the dragonblooded subtype (and low light vision I think)

Quietus
2009-08-31, 12:25 PM
Ohhh, I see. Alright, thanks, I'll pass this on to the player. :D

UserClone
2009-08-31, 12:26 PM
You could also take the feat that does not require a level of Sorc.

Or you could be any of the alternate races from Dragon Magic, like the Glimmerskin Halfling. (Note: if you are a Silverbrow Human, you'll be doing Cold damage, not fire, since your ancestor breathes cold. It's a logical extension of the text of the feat, c'mon now.:smallwink:)

Or you could be a kobold, Dragonborn (any), a dragon, a half dragon (any), a draconic (any), a Spellscale, or any other creature which has the dragonblood subtype.

Ernir
2009-08-31, 12:29 PM
There's another feat in Dragon Magic, Dragontouched. It gives the Dragonblood subtype, along with a few other very minor pluses.

*Casts protection from ninjas*

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-31, 12:29 PM
There are two feats that grant Dragonblood. Dragontouched, a feat from Dragon Magic, and Dragonic Heritage. The latter requires Sorcerer levels, the former does not.

Edit: Ninja'ed.

Fcannon
2009-08-31, 12:32 PM
You can also dip a level into Dragonfire Adept, which would also give you the breath weapon and an invocation.

Tengu_temp
2009-08-31, 12:34 PM
Realmshelps to the rescue! (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Dragonfire_Inspiration,all)

Quietus
2009-08-31, 12:43 PM
Awesome, thanks guys - I'm going to stick to the racial stuff for now, as this player isn't all that deep into optimization, so giving her options that she can pick through based on fluff will be plenty.

With that sorted out, does anyone know the names of those items/spells that increase Inspire Courage bonuses? I know there's a badge - how much did that cost, anyway? And some swift-action spell that gave a bonus as well. I know Words of Creation doubles your bonus, but that would be going over the top with regard to this group's optimizing level... but bringing her Inspire Courage up to +3/+4 by third level won't hurt.

Person_Man
2009-08-31, 12:54 PM
Also, remember that there is a built in trap to optimizing damage, especially with Dragonfire Inspiration. If everyone in your party deals +Xd6 damage every combat, then the DM just needs to make every encounter harder to compensate. So you should only use it sparingly. The same thing can be said for any powerful combo in D&D (Leap Attack + Shock Trooper, Polymorph, Celerity, etc).

UserClone
2009-08-31, 01:02 PM
You could just include creatures that are immune/resistant to, for example, fire, once in a while.

Quietus
2009-08-31, 01:03 PM
I'm aware. That's less of an issue due to the fact that we tend to maximize hit points for everyone, players and monsters alike. Throwing a few extra d6's will just mean the combats last less time, which is a good thing in this case - sometimes our fights drag on, and I intend to avoid that. Of course, I also somewhat avoid it by not having anything have a specific number of hit points... I'll go anywhere from average to max, and end the fight when something dramatic happens, or when it starts to get boring. But players love rolling fistfuls of dice, and giving me big numbers, which this will let them do.

So, does anyone know the name of those equips/spells?

Amiria
2009-08-31, 01:48 PM
Song of the Heart => feat (ECS)
Inspirational Boost => spell (SC)
Badge of Valor (from the Regalia of the Hero) => item (MIC)

Quietus
2009-08-31, 01:49 PM
Awesome, thank you very much!

Have a cookie. :smallbiggrin:

Draz74
2009-08-31, 01:57 PM
The Badge of Valor can be difficult to find in the book, since it's in an Item Set instead of the basic "Clothing" chapter. It's on Page 208. It costs 1400 gp, but has some limits on its use.

Doc Roc
2009-08-31, 01:59 PM
To be clear, DFI's technically got a wider band of applications that just inspire courage. All it cares about is that you are doing damage with a weapon. This includes weapon-like spells, such as moonblade.

quick_comment
2009-08-31, 02:03 PM
It also does not need to deal fire damage. It can deal any elemental type, depending in your draconic heritage.

(Sorry, if you take draconic heritage: force, DFI does nothing)

Fax Celestis
2009-08-31, 02:03 PM
To be clear, DFI's technically got a wider band of applications that just inspire courage. All it cares about is that you are doing damage with a weapon. This includes weapon-like spells, such as moonblade.

So if you have a flame blade ad are under the effects of a DFI...are your flames on fire?

Lamech
2009-08-31, 02:06 PM
Is Dragonfire inperation a bonus? I don't think so, so it should stack with it self. Don't let this happen. My interpertation may be wrong as well.

Eldariel
2009-08-31, 02:07 PM
Vest of Legend [DMGII] increases your effective Bard-level by 5 for Bardic Music so that helps with Inspire Courage too. Also, Mw. Drums from Complete Adventurer increase the damage bonus in exchange for smaller anti-fear/charm bonus.

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-31, 02:07 PM
I'd get Dragonblood then pick up Draconic Heritage(Fang), (Battle) or that chinese sonic-based dragon whose name escapes me.

Quietus
2009-08-31, 02:08 PM
So if you have a flame blade ad are under the effects of a DFI...are your flames on fire?

Feel the burn, baby!

Doc Roc
2009-08-31, 02:08 PM
So if you have a flame blade ad are under the effects of a DFI...are your flames on fire?

Blue instead of Red. Where is your fluff-fu? :)

Doc Roc
2009-08-31, 02:09 PM
Vest of Legend [DMGII] increases your effective Bard-level by 5 for Bardic Music so that helps with Inspire Courage too. Also, Mw. Drums from Complete Adventurer increase the damage bonus in exchange for smaller anti-fear/charm bonus.

I favor the mandolin, which also works for this.

According to the table in Races of the Dragon, you could also do Sapphire heritage, I believe. At least one of the gem dragons offers up sonic.

only1doug
2009-08-31, 02:12 PM
Dragon Magic has dragonblooded racial variants. The dragonblooded human (called a silverbrow human) gives up the extra skill point per level in exchange for the dragonblooded subtype (and low light vision I think)

Nope, the silverbrow human gives up a extra skillpoint / level for a featherfall SU ability a number of times a day based on character level (1/day at L1, 2/day at L5 etc) and a +2 racial ability at disguise (and disguise becomes always a class skill). Dragonblood subtype is considered to have as many disadvantages as advantages and therefore needs no balancing.

Signmaker
2009-08-31, 02:14 PM
So if you have a flame blade ad are under the effects of a DFI...are your flames on fire?

Yo dawg, I heard you like heat so I put some dragonfire on your bladefire so you can scorch while you scorch.

I think the best part of dragonfire inspiration is the fact that you don't have to use it. While a DM will likely start throwing (insert element here) resistant monsters at you, you can just default back to Inspire Courage to compensate. Sure, it's less damage, but you also happen to be more accurate.

I believe there's also a 5000 gp ritual that allows one to change their 'base dragon' for the purposes of dragonfire damage type.

Keld Denar
2009-08-31, 02:15 PM
Inspire Courage is a moral bonus, and since DFI is based on IC, it would probably be safe to say that its also moral bonus damage and wouldn't stack with itself. You can adjust the flavor of your DFI, but that requires either a sorcerer dip or the Dragontouched feat and then the Draconic Heritage feat, since bards don't qualify for Draconic Heritage (which is dumb....why do sorcerers get all the cool toys?).

Also, do not that DFI does NOT say it loses the moral bonus on saves vs fear and charm, only the moral bonus on attack and damage rolls, so DFI still gives that.

Words of Creation is generally misinterpretted. It only multiplies the BASE Inspire Courage (as shown in the example text in parenthesis in the rules text). It wouldn't mulitply Song of the Heart, Inspirational Boost, Badge of Valor, or the MW Instrument.

EDIT: Also, probably the best dragon is Pyroclastic. Its got sonic AND fire, so you can choose between the 2 as desired. Fire elementals? Pshaw!

Signmaker
2009-08-31, 02:18 PM
Words of Creation is generally misinterpretted. It only multiplies the BASE Inspire Courage (as shown in the example text in parenthesis in the rules text). It wouldn't mulitply Song of the Heart, Inspirational Boost, Badge of Valor, or the MW Instrument.

Which is perfectly fine, because if you can't bother to live with only +9d6 with 9 levels of bard and a Vest of Legends, something is wrong with you.

Edit: I used to use battle dragon, but for ToS I'm sticking with normal fire damage. Simplicity is best.

Doc Roc
2009-08-31, 02:25 PM
Words of Creation is generally misinterpretted. It only multiplies the BASE Inspire Courage (as shown in the example text in parenthesis in the rules text). It wouldn't mulitply Song of the Heart, Inspirational Boost, Badge of Valor, or the MW Instrument.

While widely debated, the example text only refers to the base case and thus only offers evidence for the base case. I'm not being XTREME here, so please don't bring up the (invalid) argument about death.. The actual feat just offers a doubling effect. Nothing really supports this RAW, and the intent is unclear. Now, most people do houserule it so it only doubles base, but that's just that, a house rule to preserve apparent intent.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-08-31, 02:29 PM
Words of Creation is generally misinterpretted. It only multiplies the BASE Inspire Courage (as shown in the example text in parenthesis in the rules text). It wouldn't mulitply Song of the Heart, Inspirational Boost, Badge of Valor, or the MW Instrument.

While I agree with your interpretation, I oppose casually dismissing the alternate argument as a misinterpretation.

UserClone
2009-08-31, 11:01 PM
Is it not clearly a misinterpretation?:smallconfused: Man has a point, don't you think? If the text was at all vague, the example in which it doubles only the base should clear up any vagaries.

...of course, WotC is known for their occasional incorrectly done examples. Like PrC example characters that don't qualify for the class.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-31, 11:24 PM
Is it not clearly a misinterpretation?:smallconfused: Man has a point, don't you think? If the text was at all vague, the example in which it doubles only the base should clear up any vagaries. The text just says that it doubles your IC. RAW, the player chooses what order to apply bonuses and penalties. So you add everything, then double that. There is no mention made in the feat that it applies before anything else, only doubles the base, or similar.
...of course, WotC is known for their occasional incorrectly done examples. Like PrC example characters that don't qualify for the class.There's that, and the fact that in the example, the listed bards have no benefits to IC beyond WoC. The only thing for it to double is the base. RAW is that it doubles everything. Now RAI is still debatable, though I think the example text shows that there was no RAI at the time of printing because the writers didn't think about any boosts to IC other than WoC, but people can argue either way.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-31, 11:27 PM
Now RAI is still debatable, though I think the example text shows that there was no RAI at the time of printing because the writers didn't think

Fixed it for you.

Epinephrine
2009-09-01, 12:00 PM
I personally wouldn't even allow WoC in a game. The book is referred to as the "Book of Exalted Cheese" for a reason.

On the subject of Dragonfire Inspiration, I have to ask: Why?
Normal Inspire courage actually adds a LOT of damage, especially at high levels. It might not seem like it, but the bonus to hit that it grants can actually outperform the bonus from the dragonfire inspiration, and isn't subject to energy resistances (and saves you feats, etc...).

Say you have a +4/+4 Inspire courage, or a +4d6 DFI. Your party is in the 11-15 level range, so your two fighter-types are hitting with 3 attacks a round (at BAB, BAB-5, and BAB-10), and at this point have pretty decent stats, and some magical weapons. Give them a solid average damage per swing of 20 damage.

If they hit 80% of the time with their main attack (5+) they'll hit on 10+ and 15+ with the iteratives. Base damage is thus 0.8*20+0.55*20+0.3*20, or 33 damage against this foe, per round. Adding 4d6 of DFI to it brings the average to 56.1 damage per round. Adding +4/+4 IC to it brings it to 52.8 damage per round. Slight edge to the DFI, but that's before looking at crits; add crits in (and the improved chance of confirming them, along with multiplying the IC damage) and you probably make up the difference.

What if the foe is harder to hit? If you only hit on an 9+ on your first swing you'd hit on 14+ and 19+:
Base: 21 per round
DFI: 35.7 per round
IC: 39.6 damage per round

So IC pays off better against foes that are harder to hit. Add crits in and it's even more of an effect, or add to the base damage per swing and it's even more of an effect. More iteratives (having 16+ BAB) also benefits IC. If your party uses sneak attacks, has bonuses like holy and such on the weapons, IC becomes even stronger, as the bonus chance to hit increases the likelihood of these extra damage sources making it into the picture. And it's not subject to energy resistances.

Curious why so many people want DFI, when the vanilla IC version is so powerful.

lsfreak
2009-09-01, 12:05 PM
Curious why so many people want DFI, when the vanilla IC version is so powerful.

Because you can choose which version to use. Up against cold-based (or whatever your element is opposite) enemies and those with low AC, use DFI. Super-high-AC enemies? Regular IC.

Epinephrine
2009-09-01, 12:07 PM
Because you can choose which version to use. Up against cold-based (or whatever your element is opposite) enemies and those with low AC, use DFI. Super-high-AC enemies? Regular IC.

Ah, so it's an option! I see, then it strictly dominates the other version, as in the worst situations it can perform just as well (by simply using IC). Thanks, didn't realise that, I thought it replaced IC with DFI.

Doc Roc
2009-09-01, 12:08 PM
Options, particularly options that cost you nothing but a single feat and can make or break an entire party's DPT amortized over an entire encounter..... well, that's something to get up and shout a bit about.

Ouch, Ninjas!

Draz74
2009-09-01, 01:07 PM
The book is referred to as the "Book of Exalted Cheese" for a reason.

Meh, the main "reason" is because people who started calling it that didn't know much about game balance. :smalltongue: I mean, Vow of Poverty was long considered one of the main cheesy elements of the book. Bah.

Granted, the book does contain some truly gamebreaking things. Two, to be exact: that crazy Starmantle Cloak and Retributive Amulet (the latter of which is officially nerfed in the Magic Item Compendium anyway).

Many other things (Saint, Touch of Golden Ice, Sanctify the Wicked) are mildly overpowered but not game-breaking, and are supposed to be kept in check by the harsh "roleplaying requirements" of Exalted status. Balancing powerful things with "roleplaying requirements" may not be good game design, but it arguably does prevent the kind of imbalance that I would refer to as "cheese."