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shadow_archmagi
2009-08-31, 07:40 PM
So, I have a player who likes his rogue, but I've suggested he upgrade to swordsage now that we're switching campaigns.

We're starting at level 6 but I have no idea how far we'll go.

What is the appropriate swordsage to rogue ratio, since more levels of swordsage means more neat tricks to get more sneak attack, wheras rogue actually boosts sneak attack.

Or should I disregard sneak attack and figure the swordsage will do enough damage to compensate?

Salt_Crow
2009-08-31, 07:47 PM
I'd say full Swordsage would be a better option.

Mongoose87
2009-08-31, 07:47 PM
Sneak attack isn't that great. Maneuvers are. The rogue levels are most important for purposes such as getting Disable Device and the like up.

Eldariel
2009-08-31, 07:58 PM
You should either go heavy Rogue (and probably Swashbuckler with Daring Outlaw) with 1-3 levels of Swordsage thrown in, or heavy Swordsage with little Rogue thrown in for Trapfinding and extra skills (and maybe feats if you use Martial Rogue instead).

But yeah, main one of the classes and use the other as a dip. That's how they work best. I personally love high-level Rogues for the special abilities. My Test of Might-party has a Rogue 13/Swordsage 2 that gets Hide in Plain Sight as an Ex-ability from Rogue, and a bunch of great maneuvers (plus qualification for Shadow Blade) from Swordsage. Oh, and free Weapon Focus and Wis to AC.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-08-31, 08:10 PM
Well, that depends.

A sneak-attack build can benefit greatly from two levels of Swordsage. Assassin's Stance and Island of Blades are both good for combining with Shadow Blade feat to make Str a complete dump stat. Pouncing Strike from Tiger Claw is also of significant benefit, and a two-level dip in Bloodclaw Master wouldn't go amiss in a TWF sneak-attack build.

Having said that, the other way 'round works too. One level in Rogue at 1st level for maxed out skill points and Trapfinding makes for an awesome start on a Swordsage-Skillmonkey, particularly if one uses Able Learner to keep Disable Device a class skill. The 1d6 sneak attack, by itself, isn't too impressive... until you combine it with Assassin's Stance or Island of Blades for more frequent SA opportunities. On top of your regularly scheduled maneuvers.

Probably the worst thing to do is to go even, with the same in both rogue and swordsage. Being neither fish nor foul, you are lackluster in both.

Curmudgeon
2009-08-31, 08:21 PM
Eldariel is right. Rogues really shine when you can get their special abilities; it's a solid class with only 2 "dead" levels (14 and 20), so you can take it through 19.

If you're going to dip, do it with something that provides significant synergy. I like Cloistered Cleric with Rogue: complementary saving throws
good increase in the class skill list with Knowledge domain
Sacred Outlaw feat stacks Rogue and Cleric levels for sneak attack and undead turning
a wide choice of domain powers can make for a better Rogue
useful spells right at 1st level, like Grave Strike
Cleric + Magic domain can reduce UMD needsAnother good choice is Scout 3/Rogue X, with Swift Ambusher to stack your levels for skirmish. You'll be able to deliver full skirmish and nearly full sneak attack damage simultaneously. (Obviously you need to solve the "move 10' and full attack" problem with any Scout build, but Travel Devotion works well for that.)

Whatever Rogue choice you make, don't forget the basics: Penetrating Strike ACF to sneak the unsneakable, Craven for a big boost to sneak attack damage, Savvy Rogue to leverage your special abilities, and a keen rapier with as much "to hit" boost as you can get. (Remember: if you don't hit, your sneak attack damage is zero.)

lsfreak
2009-08-31, 08:25 PM
I second a two-level dip in swordsage, or a 1-level dip in rogue. Rogue-and-others10/swordsage2 is a great addition to a straight rogue. If you go into Shadowlord4, 2 levels of swordsage gets you the option of two full attacks in the opening round, which can really put down the pain. Rogue18/crusader2 (not actually rogue 18, but you know what I mean) nets you tons of extra dice with Aura of Chaos on top of it.

The best swordsage additions to a rogue are Island of Blades, Assassin's Stance, Cloak of Deception, Wolf Fang Strike, Pouncing Charge, and Dancing Mongoose, plus the Shadow Jaunt line for a shadowpouncer. There's others, but at high enough level that you're not likely to get them and still be focused on sneak attack, but rather you'd be a swordsage with a bit of sneak attack on the side. EDIT: Oh, and Distracting Flame is good as well, and Counter Charge is good for everyone.

Person_Man
2009-09-01, 09:05 AM
IMO, the only reason to play a Rogue over a Swordsage would be Trapfinding, which many DMs ignore. UMD can be taken cross class or gotten around via several feats. Uncanny Dodge is moot if you have high Dex and win Initiative most of the time. Evasion rocks, but the Swordsage gets it too, albeit at level 9 instead of 2. The Rogue also gets a few more Skill points per level, but not enough to make it worth it IMO.

Swordsage gets much better bonus damage and effects from manuevers and stances, better AC, Discipline Focus, and Quick to Act. His only real disadvantage is that he's more MAD then the Rogue, needing high Wis, Dex, and respectable Con.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-09-01, 09:49 AM
If all you're going for is sneak attack, be a Daring Outlaw Rogue/Swashbuckler. If all you're going for is damage, just be a plain swordsage.

Geddoe
2009-09-03, 08:36 PM
Sneak attack isn't that great. Maneuvers are. The rogue levels are most important for purposes such as getting Disable Device and the like up.

Fax Celestis'(sp) Sublime Way Rogue means you don't need to choose, you get both.

Temet Nosce
2009-09-03, 08:57 PM
It can work either way honestly, and I've had a lot of fun with builds that dipped in both ratios. A personal favorite I've used multiple times is Swordsage with some levels of Bloodclaw Master, Shadow Blade, and Stormguard warrior TWFing with daggers. If you decide to go that way, there's a nice build to base it off by T_G floating around on the CO boards called Beshadowed Blade.

Still, if you're going to go with a Rogue/Swordsage build I suppose I'd suggest mostly Rogue with a small Swordsage dip to pick up Assassin's Stance, Shadowblade, and maybe a couple other goodies.

D Knight
2009-09-03, 09:28 PM
OK this might derail but i have to ask it anyway. If you home brew a feat that lets your sword sage and rogue lv stack for the purpose of sneak attack and maneuvers would it be overpowered?

Temet Nosce
2009-09-03, 09:32 PM
OK this might derail but i have to ask it anyway. If you home brew a feat that lets your sword sage and rogue lv stack for the purpose of sneak attack and maneuvers would it be overpowered?

Yeah, it would. Why? Because when I think about it I'd take it every single time. Still, it's not going to break the game... It's just incredibly good, and stacked onto an already excellent class.

Edit: Wait, maneuvers to!? I somehow missed it. Yes, that is broken good.

quick_comment
2009-09-03, 09:32 PM
OK this might derail but i have to ask it anyway. If you home brew a feat that lets your sword sage and rogue lv stack for the purpose of sneak attack and maneuvers would it be overpowered?

Yeah, it would be. Maybe stack for the purposes of sneak attack, and allow rogue levels to offer full initiator levels.

Curmudgeon
2009-09-03, 09:39 PM
If you home brew a feat that lets your sword sage and rogue lv stack for the purpose of sneak attack and maneuvers would it be overpowered?
Oh, absolutely. I gave examples of two feats that let Rogue levels stack with some other classes. Swift Ambusher lets Rogue+Scout levels stack for skirmish damage -- but not for sneak attack. Sacred Outlaw lets Rogue+Cleric levels stack for sneak attack and undead turning -- but not for spellcasting. You're allowing a combo of the best features of both classes. That's just way out of line.