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Zovc
2009-08-31, 11:04 PM
The flavor of the mechanical application of intelligence to combat actions is really cool, in my opinion. I like the Factotum (as you may or may not know), but I won't be able to play as one in an upcoming campaign. The three alternative classes that have been presented to me all have things I like and dislike about them.

Swashbuckler (Complete Warrior) -- A relatively weak class. I'd be willing to put three levels into the class, it'd almost feel like putting that amount of levels in fighter. My DM is skeptical of "Cherry Picking," though, so I have to keep dipping to a minimum if I do do it.

Duelist (Dungeon Master's Guide) -- Essentially the origin of the Swashbuckler. At least this class doesn't have literal dead levels, but it is extremely restrictive in that it requires you to not wear armor or use a shield. I like the Uncanny Defense ability, but would like to at least be able to wear light armor with it.

Invisible Blade (Complete Warrior) -- Perhaps the most powerful of the three classes. Only problem, I don't want to be stuck with daggers, and I don't really care for the slight emphasis on throwing.

When it boils down to it, I'd essentially like to recreate the Factotum without having to take the class. If I have to pick certain features, it'd be intelligence fighting and "skillmonkeying."

Swashbuckler 3/Beguiler X/??? Y seemed to have potential, but alas, I haven't been able to find anything cool with that. (Definitely needs more oomph in combat later on.)

My DM does not want me to use the Tome of Battle, and will definitely refuse any homebrewed (/online-exclusive) material. Essentially, I'm restricted to Wizards published material (Psionics are a possibility).

UserClone
2009-08-31, 11:13 PM
How about an Eldritch Knight? could you qualify with those two classes?

Bushwhacked
2009-08-31, 11:15 PM
I'm going to go ahead and suggest something that's slightly off what I think your after but certainly puts Int into your combat effectiveness. Find a class which is good with knowledge skills (I'd go with duskblades as they get all knowledges as class skills plus their casting is Int based) and look into the knowedge devotion (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Knowledge_Devotion,all) feat. It's officially a domain feat but that shouldn't stop the character taking it if you have the fluff to back it up. Stack this with the collector of stories skill trick and your good to go.

Crow
2009-08-31, 11:19 PM
Psion manifesting Control Body with Solicit Psicrystal?

Woodsman
2009-08-31, 11:33 PM
Invisible blade is either homebrew or 3rd-party; it's not in any WotC book that I know of.

A warrior class that makes good use of Int is warblade. They add their Int bonus to varying things as they level up, beginning with Reflex saves.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-31, 11:38 PM
Invisible blade is either homebrew or 3rd-party; it's not in any WotC book that I know of.

A warrior class that makes good use of Int is warblade. They add their Int bonus to varying things as they level up, beginning with Reflex saves.No ToB. In fact, the 2 best Int-based meleers are banned.

My recommendation is a Swashbuckler 3/Rogue X Daring Outlaw build, using TWF and Knowledge Devotion to deal major precision damage.

AmberVael
2009-08-31, 11:39 PM
Invisible Blade (Not sure where I saw it)


Invisible blade is either homebrew or 3rd-party; it's not in any WotC book that I know of.

Complete Warrior, pages 44-46.

Zovc
2009-08-31, 11:52 PM
How about an Eldritch Knight? could you qualify with those two classes?

I could, but Eldritch Knight is such a boring class... it literally has no features of its own. Other than that d6. :/

Gorgondantess
2009-09-01, 12:03 AM
Duskblade. Fun class, and it uses intelligence for casting- nice to have high int if you want to channel a lot of spells. Great damage dealer.
Other than that, swashbuckler/rogue/assassin is fun.

Fax Celestis
2009-09-01, 12:14 AM
Cloistered Cleric 1/Swashbuckler 3/Duskblade 5/Warblade 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 10.

At 1st, switch your Knowledge domain for Knowledge Devotion.

You have Int-to-Damage, Int-based spontaneous casting with channeling, and Int-based maneuvers. Knowledge Devotion gives you some more Int-to-kick-ass stuff.

BAB +19, CL 15 for your Duskblade spells, IL 15 for your Warblade maneuvers, and can use divine items without UMD. Take Arcane Strike and go to town.

It's a very everyman sort of build, but it's very solid.

Zovc
2009-09-01, 12:19 AM
My recommendation is a Swashbuckler 3/Rogue X Daring Outlaw build, using TWF and Knowledge Devotion to deal major precision damage.

Where can I find Daring Outlaw?

Gorgondantess and Bushwhacked, I appreciate you encouraging me to look over the Duskblade--I like the class, but it definitely has little skillmonkey potential.

Fax Celestis, thanks for the suggestion, but I am not allowed to use the Tome of Battle. I'm also not supposed to "cherry pick" very much, I definitely can't make multiple 1-level dips.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-01, 12:23 AM
Complete Scoundrel feat, allows you to stack Swashbuckler and Rogue for the purposes of Grace and Sneak Attack.

Wings of Peace
2009-09-01, 12:23 AM
Something along the lines of Duskblade/Factotum/Magical Trickster/Iaijutsu Master + Gnome Razor blade/Skill Tricks that flatfoot enemies could get pretty devastating and be pretty stylish at the same time.

UserClone
2009-09-01, 12:26 AM
See if you can get the Eclectic Learning Warmage ACF from PHB II to apply to Beguiler then, use it to get Phantom Steed as a spell, and take Knight Phantom.

Sophismata
2009-09-01, 12:28 AM
My DM does not want me to use the Tome of Battle,

There needs to be a rule against this. Criminal, especially considering that the Warblade is a (variety of) Int-fighter.

Zovc
2009-09-01, 12:35 AM
Something along the lines of Duskblade/Factotum/Magical Trickster/Iaijutsu Master + Gnome Razor blade/Skill Tricks that flatfoot enemies could get pretty devastating and be pretty stylish at the same time.

This goes against the criteria, I cannot play a Factotum, nor can I "cherry pick."


See if you can get the Eclectic Learning Warmage ACF from PHB II to apply to Beguiler then, use it to get Phantom Steed as a spell, and take Knight Phantom.

I don't know what "Eclectic Learning," "ACF," or "Knight Phantom" are.

Hijax
2009-09-01, 12:40 AM
This goes against the criteria, I cannot play a Factotum, nor can I "cherry pick."



I don't know what "Eclectic Learning," "ACF," or "Knight Phantom" are.

An alternate class feature of warmage, an acronym for Alternate Class Feature, something i dont know.

Zovc
2009-09-01, 12:40 AM
There needs to be a rule against this. Criminal, especially considering that the Warblade is a (variety of) Int-fighter.

DM wants to dedicate a campaign specifically to ToB before using it anywhere else.

Wings of Peace
2009-09-01, 12:44 AM
This goes against the criteria, I cannot play a Factotum, nor can I "cherry pick."

Shoot. I'll have to think more. I will admit to not fully reading the criteria when I posted. I have sinned.

Zovc
2009-09-01, 12:50 AM
Shoot. I'll have to think more. I will admit to not fully reading the criteria when I posted. I have sinned.

You are forgiven. :P

elliott20
2009-09-01, 01:02 AM
so basically you have your hands tied to... pretty much every single option available to you, and you're forced to pick one of the three worst classes available in D&D.

umm... don't really know what you can do there. Maybe just play a TWF rogue/Lion Spirit Totem barbarian (for the run in pounce) and pimp out the extra sneak attack damage as much as you can.

UserClone
2009-09-01, 01:08 AM
I think the Daring Outlaw has some merit there, just saying...

Anyway, Advanced Learning becomes Eclectic learning with the Alternate Class Feature, allowing you to select a spell of a school other than Illusion/Enchantment for your Advanced Learning spell, only it counts as one spell level higher. So you could qualify for the gish PrC Knight Phantom, which requires Phantom Steed as a spell for a prereq. It's a class almost exactly like Eldritch Knight, except with class features.

Kylarra
2009-09-01, 01:39 AM
Play a cloistered clericz (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric)illa who uses knowledge devotion perhaps? That's a strong straight 20 build (or maybe hit things like contemplative or whatever divine prestige class has an aspect you'd like to focus in).

Sophismata
2009-09-01, 02:03 AM
DM wants to dedicate a campaign specifically to ToB before using it anywhere else.

That's pretty cool, actually. You have my sincere apologies.

Draz74
2009-09-01, 02:04 AM
Daring Outlaw is a very sensible option, nice and simple, but ...


(Psionics are a possibility).

... that means you should use them.

Ranger 2 / Psion (Egoist) 8 / Slayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm) 10 is a very decent INT-based psionic gish, and has a pretty decent amount of skills too.

You end up with Manifester Level 17, BAB +16, and 86+(23*INT) skill points.

If you really want to powergame it, look up the historic King of Smack build (pretty much the best build melee had invented before Tome of Battle came along):


Psion/Egoist build (most powerful in the long run IMO)

1 Rgr1 Track, Overchannel
2 Ego1 Dodge
3 Ego2 Combat Expertise
4 Ego3
5 Ego4
6 Ego5 Expanded Knowledge (Claws of the Beast), Karmic Strike
7 Ego6
8 IS1
9 IS2 Improved Natural Attack (claw)
10 IS3
11 IS4
12 IS5 Expanded Knowledge (Claws of the Vampire)
13 IS6
14 IS7
15 IS8 Rapidstrike (claw)
16 IS9
17 IS10
18 Ego7 Metamorphic Transfer
19 Ego8
20 Wsh1
21 ??? Improved Rapidstrike (claw)

Zovc
2009-09-01, 03:30 AM
@Elliot
That's sort of how I feel. It's unfortunate, the dissonance between my DM's and seemingly everyone I see on here's (and various other forums') opinions.

I actually have a similar thread on the Wizards of the Coast boards, it has died down, and people keep suggesting Tome of Battle (or homebrew in some cases) material. In spite of this, "Bkdubs123" has presented quite a few good ideas (one of them was actually ToB based, but this was before I said it was ruled out).

The best suggestion from Bkdubbs (which I actually like quite a bit), I think, was Human Paragon 3/Battle Sorcerer X. I hadn't looked at the Battle Sorcerer (or Racial Paragons) prior to that, but it seems like it has potential. This, of course draws me away from Intelligence.

@FlWiPig
Grace just doesn't seem like that great of an ability. Sure, saving throws are important, but they don't allow my character to do anything more (other than potentially live longer, that is).

@Draz
I personally don't care for the Ranger (Favored Enemy in particular), and the Slayer capitalizes on that. Not only that, but DM would have to incorporate more psionics into is game in order for all of my class features to be utilized.

Sophismata
2009-09-01, 03:52 AM
I personally don't care for the Ranger (Favored Enemy in particular), and the Slayer capitalizes on that. Not only that, but DM would have to incorporate more psionics into is game in order for all of my class features to be utilized.

Slayer isn't about favoured enemy (though it's a nice bonus), brain nausea or blast feedback. It's about permanent Mind Blank, immunity to divination and full BAB with a 9/10 psionic progression. Everything else is just icing, even if you never encounter an illithid.

Warshaper makes you immune to stuns and crits, on top of the Slayer immunities. You can go Ardent instead of Psion, as well, since one of the Ardent mantles gives you Metamorphosis.

Basically, it's a melee build, with excellent 'casting' and immunity to a lot of the traditional shutdowns used against melee fighters. You will have a terrible Fort save, sadly, IIRC. Oh, and you deal incredible damage, can make as many attacks as you want, you are biologically immortal, you don't need food and water and you heal back half the damage you deal each strike.


All that said, I wouldn't recommend it. It doesn't seem to jive with the style you are aiming for (classy, Intelligent fighter).

shadzar
2009-09-01, 04:07 AM
OK what is this "Factotum"?

Saph
2009-09-01, 04:15 AM
I posted this Daring Outlaw build advice a week or so ago, so might as well re-use it. This assumes you're going the Rogue/Swashbuckler Daring Outlaw route, which is pretty effective. It also assumes you're playing human, though that's not essential.

The first decision is whether you want to go Swashbuckler or Rogue for your first level. Swash will give you a starting HP of 10, Rogue a starting HP of 6, but Rogue will give you a lot more skill points.

Assuming high-average HP and an Int 14 Con 14 human, here's the difference at level 2:

Swash1/Rogue1: 18 HP, 39 skill points.
Rogue1/Swash1: 16 HP, 51 skill points.

Me, I'd rather have 12 skill points than 2 hit points, but it does mean a slower start, as you get no Weapon Finesse until level 2 and can't take EWP with your level 1 feat. Your choice.

For stats, Dex is your most important, followed by Int and Con, then Strength, then Wisdom and Charisma.

For feats, EWP (Spiked Chain) is a good idea. It's finesseable, and lets you sneak attack with reach. Unfortunately you won't be able to trip effectively since you're focusing on Dex rather than Strength.

The natural other feats to go for would be the ToB Shadow Hand line, capping with Shadow Blade and Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance), but since ToB is out you'll have to look elsewhere. Craven is possible but not very exciting at low levels. Improved Initiative is always good for a rogue - more sneak attacks. Staggering Strike is very good, but you won't be able to get it until level 9. So my suggestion would be something like:

Level 1: Swash. Feats: EWP (Spiked Chain), Improved Initiative.
Level 2: Rogue.
Level 3: Swash. Feats: Craven.
Level 4: Swash.
Level 5: Rogue.
Level 6: Rogue. Feats: Daring Outlaw.
Level 7: Swash.
Level 8: Swash.
Level 9: Swash. Feats: Staggering Strike.

Take the Penetrating Strike ACF from Dungeonscape to replace Trap Sense. It allows you to sneak attack unsneakattackable things as long as you flank them (less damage, though). You might want to fit in a fourth Rogue level at some point for Uncanny Dodge, too.

From that point just keep taking Swashbuckler levels to keep your BAB and Sneak Attack high. Don't bother with PrCs as that negates the whole point of Daring Outlaw.

You'll want light armour, obviously (mithral shirt is the standard) and keep your Tumble skill maxed out, as well as 5 ranks in Jump for the synergy bonus, so that you can move around to get sneak attacks.

- Saph

elliott20
2009-09-01, 04:19 AM
well, the impression I'm getting is that his GM doesn't want a super high powered game. (Meaning, mostly tier 4 and tier 5 ish classes) If that were the case, then we don't need to go too crazy with it. Just give him enough to work with.

That's why I thought maybe just a crunched out rogue will be sufficient. A rogue who relies on feints (which I think there are a bunch of feats out there to help with that) and sneak attack damage might just do the trick. It also is the closest fit I can think of for his character concept.

edit: major ninja sneak attacked by Saph.

Ozymandias9
2009-09-01, 04:20 AM
My instinct here would be to mix a Duelist with a Monk using either the "Kung Fu Genius" (Dragon magazine three hundred something) or Carmendine Monk (FR Champ. of Valor) Feat. Both of these essentially allow you to substitute int for wis for the monk AC bonus. The FR version has an additional benefit of 2+ effective monk levels daily for your choice of either unarmed damage, movement speed or AC bonus.

There are some downsides.

First is that you're essentially limited to a single melee weapon (a siangham) if you want to preserve both your precise strike and flurry of blows.
You might be able to sell a DM on a piercing sai. Arms and Equipment lists it as such (though other books do not), and it's a common thing to see in movies where they are used. Moreover, despite the fact they are used as bludgeons both in modern martial arts and most historical contexts, there is some historical precedent for sharpened sais used for piercing. Specifically in peasant uprisings they were often sharpened used to pierce through armor designed to protect primarily from sword slashes. If you have a particularly accomidating DM, you might be able to sell them on another weapon to meet the Flurry of Blows requirement.


Second is that the Monk BAB progression makes this a slow entry for Duelist. You can't get in till 8th level, and you can't get precise strike (which is, in my opinion, the PrC's bread and butter) till 13. This simply isn't an attractive build unless you looking at levels above that.

You can get in at 7 with 3 or 4 levels in a high BAB class, but that's almost certainly cherry-picking. If that doesn't trip any cherry-picking alarms, the fighter feats are quite a boon. Grabbing a ranger for 2 weapon fighting (and possibly an animal companion)-- IIRC WotC decided that 2WC stacked with Flurry in 3.5. The penalties stack as well, but you'd be using light weapons in both hands.

The person reading over my shoulder says that if you would be waiting till 8 to get in and if you're using the fractional BAB from Unearthed Arcana, you should consider 3/3/2 half-elf paragon, human paragon, monk. It will give you a couple extra feats, 2 shots of +2 to any stats, and some other nifty stuff. If you dump the extra stats into Int, you're not missing much from monk if you nix levels 3-8. Its really just the movement and wholeness of body for most purposes (you're using a weapon for Duelist, so ki-strike is moot). And while I've never been overly fond of them, I do have to admit that the racial paragon classes feel less like cherry picking than other options.

Hijax
2009-09-01, 04:22 AM
OK what is this "Factotum"?

base class from dungeonscape.

riddles
2009-09-01, 04:22 AM
i second (third?) daring outlaw as a build. swash 3/rogue 17. if you're desperate for a 4th iterative, take swash 4/rogue 16 or dip into fighter for a feat.

your stats should be INT/DEX->CON/CHA->WIS->STR

a small race like strongheart halfling, whisper gnome, or goblin would be great (i think goblins don't get an INT penalty, i'm AFB). Elf is also an option, but i dislike elves.

pick up knowledge devotion and put as many skill points as possible into the relevant identifying ones, and roleplay the heck out of it. twf is useful, but as you're getting weapon finesse anyway, the dex requirement shouldn't be an issue. also, find a way to move as much as possible and make full attacks. pounce, belts of battle etc. if you go the spring attack route, it's a lot of feats to get up to making more than one attack.

and carry a crossbow for emergencies. high initiative (improved initiative is good) will mean you can get your shot off then draw your weapon.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-09-01, 06:29 AM
If you can get Carmendine Monk (Champions of Valor) into this, Monk/Duelist would be very interesting. Take Versatile Unarmed Strike (Player's Handbook II) to make your unarmed strike piercing if necessary. A bit MAD, like all monks, but it shouldn't be horrendously gimped.

Fixer
2009-09-01, 08:05 AM
From a non-optimized perspective, you can try a straight Fighter. Hear me out now.

The only real thing Fighters have for them is the colossal amount of feats they have. Put your stats into INT and WIS and you can play the Fighter as a Controller.

From Complete Warrior:
Close-Quarters Fighting
Defensive Throw
Freezing the Lifeblood
Pain Touch
Weakening Touch

From Complete Adventurer:
Goad

From Complete Mage:
Mage Slayer
Pierce Magical Concealment
Pierce Magical Protection

Your BAB will be excellent. You can wear heavy spiked armor so grappling will be a tactical advantage most of the time. Combine with a friendly wizard to cast the occasional buff to help you fill a need (enlarge, silence, fly, whatever) and you can be a Controller in every sense of the word.

woodenbandman
2009-09-01, 10:27 AM
I have an idea for you.

Using intelligence in battle can really be defined as you having a greater knowledge of combat than your enemy, controlling the way that you and he clash, and killing him efficiently without him hitting you. To me, this means having a ton of attack options, a lot of debuffs, and probably good at tripping.

Some things good for this are Hexblade (just a few levels for the Dark Companion), the Combat Panache feat, the Knowledge Devotion feat, Sneak Attack, Marshal (technically uses charisma but it's great as a "tactical leader) for one or 2 levels, Sneak Attack (and the ambush feats from C. Scoundrel), Assassin, and the Use Magic Device skill. Also cool are various mundane/alchemical items, especially from the Arms and Equipment guide (I like Marbles).

These are just my suggestions for a thematic character.

As an example, I'll give you a sheet for a character I'm building as a villain. He's more charisma focused than intelligence focused, but he definitely does use his intelligence more than a lot of wizards do.

When you have high intelligence, you need to do things that other people won't expect. Suppose you're a wizard, and you have powerful spell X. Anyone with a brain stem and a crystal ball will scry you and know about that spell, and when you come in, will be warded against it. So you need to hit them with powerful spell Y, the spell that you use when powerful spell X fails.

What this guy does is make extensive use of wands, such as wands of grease to get his sneak attack, or wands of web to get better positioning to toss knives at you or whatever. That's just some pretty standard stuff though. He also has a lot of feats that effect the attack options of other people. Combat panache + a huge intimidate check for making sure that when he looks at you funny, you quake in your boots. Also the Play Dead option is sweet. Mage Slayer/Pierce Magical Protection for annoying those casters before they can annoy him. Staggering Strike and Brutal Strike, so that he can smack you and make you lose actions, which is always a nice strategy. Anything you can do to make your opponent less good at fighting is probably a good thing to do.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=150338

Cieyrin
2009-09-01, 10:40 AM
If you can get Carmendine Monk (Champions of Valor) into this, Monk/Duelist would be very interesting. Take Versatile Unarmed Strike (Player's Handbook II) to make your unarmed strike piercing if necessary. A bit MAD, like all monks, but it shouldn't be horrendously gimped.

You could also take Unorthodox Flurry (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Unorthodox_Flurry,DC1) (Dragon Conpendium) to pick a light weapon of your choice to make it work for both your Flurries and Duelist abilities. I personally suggest an Eagleclaw (Sandstorm) for those purposes. EDIT: Oh, and as an alternative to Versatile Unarmed Strike, you may wanna consider Toothed Strike (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Toothed_Blow,Sto) from Stormwrack, which lets you do both piercing and bludgeoning on your unarmed strikes.


IIRC WotC decided that 2WC stacked with Flurry in 3.5. The penalties stack as well, but you'd be using light weapons in both hands.

Yeah, you can Flurry and Two-Weapon, though you unfortunately couldn't Precise Strike as well, as it says you have to not use what you're using in your off hand, defeating the purpose of Two-Weaponing. Killed an idea I had for a Grey Elf Duelist dual-wielding an Elven Thinblade and Lightblade. ><

Thrawn183
2009-09-01, 11:02 AM
I'm going to fifth (I think that's right) a daring outlaw build.

It's a bit tougher then a rogue, but doesn't feel like you fight by hulking out and power attacking everything into a fine red mist.

UserClone
2009-09-01, 12:07 PM
Right. The point of Daring Outlaw isn't a Rogue with Grace (which seems to be what the OP thought it was), it's to get a Swashbuckler (Full BAB class with a d10 HD) with Sneak Attack. Yowza!:smalltongue:

Fax Celestis
2009-09-01, 12:13 PM
I'm a fan of using the Alt class feature in Comp Mage that replaces Grace with a couple SLAs. A reasonable DM will let it work with Daring Outlaw.

Cieyrin
2009-09-01, 12:22 PM
I'm a fan of using the Alt class feature in Comp Mage that replaces Grace with a couple SLAs. A reasonable DM will let it work with Daring Outlaw.

I would totally go for that as well. Blur and Expeditious Retreat? Count me in!

Ozymandias9
2009-09-01, 01:30 PM
Yeah, you can Flurry and Two-Weapon, though you unfortunately couldn't Precise Strike as well, as it says you have to not use what you're using in your off hand, defeating the purpose of Two-Weaponing. Killed an idea I had for a Grey Elf Duelist dual-wielding an Elven Thinblade and Lightblade. ><

Hadn't considered that. Either way its a moot point: if the full BAB entry is an option, Fighter is probably a better choice: you'd probably be limited to first level ranger spells, and the animal companion would dead end at an effective druid level of 2. The benefit is a favored enemy and some utility feats, which can be useful, but don't seem to be the goal here.

If you've got a LOT of stats to go around paladin might be a good high BAB entry option with 2 in monk. The 1st level spells are better if you've got the wis, and if you've got cha the class features are nice. But this really puts a lot of strain on stats: you'd need 12+ in cha and wis, decent sta, and dex and int as high as you can get them. You'd have to be rolling and be lucky or be using a very generous point buy.

UserClone
2009-09-01, 01:43 PM
I'm a fan of using the Alt class feature in Comp Mage that replaces Grace with a couple SLAs. A reasonable DM will let it work with Daring Outlaw.

Wow, I've never seen Arcane Stunt before! That is freaking awesome!