[3.5] Quick Beguiler Question

[Burley]

Do Beguilers have abjuration spells on their spell lists? Any at all?

[Saph]

Yes. Several.

Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic, Mind Blank are probably the ones that see most use.

[kamikasei]

Dispel magic and nondetection, break enchantment, greater dispel magic and repulsion, spell turning, and mind blank, going by Crystal Keep.

[Burley]

Okay. I've already planned out with my DM that I'd play a sorcerer going into Initiate of the Seven-Fold Veil.
I like the IoSfV for flavor and function, but after looking over the spells I'd pick for the sorcerer... most of them are on the Beguiler's spell list (or I'd imagine they are). I've got a bunch of illusion/enchantment spells.
Would sticking with my goal of IoSfV while basing in Beguiler be a very poor idea? (The spell focus feats would be even more useless... But, the class is solid.)

[Saph]

I'd say it wouldn't be a problem. You'd waste two feats, but unless you're playing in an incredibly high-powered game the simple fact that you're using Iot7V will more than make up for it.

[Burley]

Okay, thanks for that, guys.
Saph, I need to ask you something. We all know I respect your opinion. Very highly. You're one smart kid. So, in your opinion: Is it totally lame that spell focus is an increase in your DC and not your caster level?

[Foryn Gilnith]

Not totally lame. Changing it thusly would make it more universally applicable, but less useful for save-or-lose effects. Perhaps it might be something to try.

[Saph]

Okay, thanks for that, guys.
Saph, I need to ask you something. We all know I respect your opinion. Very highly. You're one smart kid. So, in your opinion: Is it totally lame that spell focus is an increase in your DC and not your caster level?

:smallredface:

It depends on the spell school. For something like Enchantment, an increased DC is much more useful than an increased caster level, because caster level only affects enchantment duration and effects like Sleep or Dominate last more than long enough already - what matters is getting the target to fail their save.

For Abjuration, though, many of the most important spells run only off caster level (dispels being the main one) and hardly any of them allow a save, so Spell Focus is very weak. There are some offensive Abjuration spells that allow a save, like Arcane Turmoil from Complete Mage and Reciprocal Gyre from Spell Compendium, but they're rare and none of them are on the Beguiler spell list.

So for the character you're planning, yes, it's kind of lame.

[Burley]

Well, I actually got the OK from my DM to do this. Aside from the feats that I have to blow through to get into the prestige class, are there any others I should look out for?
I'm still thinking about metamagics, but I dunno which ones to use. The Rapid Metamagic feat is important to the character concept, since he's in disguise as a Wizard. Sometimes metamagic just... blows over my head and hurts me.

[Keld Denar]

Unsettling Enchantment is not a metamagic feat persay, but does affect your spells. Every time a foe is affected by your enchantments (~1/2 your spell list), the get an untyped -2 penalty to...basically every d20 roll and AC, regardless of save. Gives you a little kicker in case stuff does make their save, so another caster can follow behind you and hit your debuffed target, or your friendly fighterytype can PA for just a little more, etc. Requires Spell Focus: Enchantment though.

As for actual Metamagic, you can almost NEVER go wrong with Quicken Spell. Action economy is king, especially at higher levels. You have tons of spell slots, burn them for power! Does require the Rapid Metamagic feat in Complete Arcane to use effectively though.

[Burley]

I'm already planning on taking the Rapid Metamagic feat. Quicken will go in there, too. The great thing about starting at 9th level is I already get free Silent Spell, and I'll get Still Spell next level.
However, I've realized I have to wait quite a while to go into my PrC. Since I have to have two abjurations of 4th level or higher, and I won't have that until I get my 5th level spells...

Is Earthbound Spell worth it? I really think it's neat for trap setting purposes, but the +2 spell level seems painful. Are there any feats that make that +2 level slot work for me? By increasing my DCs or something?

[Myrmex]

Talk to your DM about doing this, but Versatile Spellcaster lets you combine to spells to get a higher level spell. You could use it to gain early entry to prestige classes.

[lsfreak]

Are there any feats that make that +2 level slot work for me? By increasing my DCs or something?

Heighten Spell does that.

[Burley]

Talk to your DM about doing this, but Versatile Spellcaster lets you combine to spells to get a higher level spell. You could use it to gain early entry to prestige classes.

Versatile Spell Caster is in, what book?I want to compile a list of books that I need to have handy.

Also, the DM in his grace let me reneg on the IoSfV PrC. What would be the best PrC for a Beguiler? Now that I don't don't have to sink Spell Focus into Abjuration, I'll end up with Spell Focus (Enchantment) and Unsettling Enchantment (Thanks, Keld), as well as the Rapid Metamagic feat at 9th level. That still leaves me open for a few feats to help out my Sneaky Doppleganger Guy.

[The Glyphstone]

Beguiler's actually one of the few classes solid all the way to 20, particularly with its awesometastic capstone of ignoring Spell Resistance. Combine that with Extra Spell for hilarity.

[Keld Denar]

Versitile Spellcaster is in Races of the Dragon. Its good.

The best PrC for a beguiler is MOAR BEGUILER!!!! Seriously, Beguiler20 is a pretty good build! If you really want to PrC, a 1 level dip in Mindbender at 6 is great because A) 100' Telepathy is awesome, and B) It actually pushes your Advanced Learning back a level, meaning you qualify to take higher levels spells, although a level later.

Mindbender also lets you take the relatively overpowered Mindsight feat, meaning you'll almost never be surprised again. Its pretty much the ultimate in detection abilities, only failing against mindless things and mind blanked things. Its in Lords of Madness, in the Tjocari section (not the normal feat section).

[olentu]

Versatile Spell Caster is in, what book?I want to compile a list of books that I need to have handy.

Though one will need a way of getting spell knowledge to cast those higher level spells.

I also would agree that a mindbender dip can be good if one does not care a great deal about the capstone.

Also I do not remember mindsight being either mind effecting or a divination though I may be remembering the specific wording of the feat wrong.

[Douglas]

Though one will need a way of getting spell knowledge to cast those higher level spells.
He's playing a Beguiler, they know their entire class list automatically.

[olentu]

He's playing a Beguiler, they know their entire class list automatically.

Only when they gain access to that level of spells do they gain that knowledge.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Only when they gain access to that level of spells do they gain that knowledge.And we're back to this debate.

Let me sum it up for the OP: Versatile Spellcaster allows Beguilers to combine 2 spells to cast one spell of one level higher. Beguiler knows their entire list as soon as they can cast spells of that level.
Some say(including me, for full disclosure) that Versatile Spellcaster gives them the ability to cast spells of the next level, thereby giving them knowledge of those spells.
Others say that the "spell you know" wording of VS means that they don't have the ability to cast spells of the next level unless they know spells of that level, and they don't know those spells until they can cast them, eliminating that use of VS.
Both sides will fall into a mismash of quote trees, FAQ links, and the occasional grammer textbook cite in order to prove their sides, and the thread will discuss this for 3 pages. Talk to your DM, then tell us whether or not you can use it.

Heighten Spell definitely gets around this argument, FYI, but you may not have the slot unless you're going Shadowcraft Mage. It's not a really useful metamagic for Beguilers.

[olentu]

And we're back to this debate.

Let me sum it up for the OP: Versatile Spellcaster allows Beguilers to combine 2 spells to cast one spell of one level higher. Beguiler knows their entire list as soon as they can cast spells of that level.
Some say(including me, for full disclosure) that Versatile Spellcaster gives them the ability to cast spells of the next level, thereby giving them knowledge of those spells.
Others say that the "spell you know" wording of VS means that they don't have the ability to cast spells of the next level unless they know spells of that level, and they don't know those spells until they can cast them, eliminating that use of VS.
Both sides will fall into a mismash of quote trees, FAQ links, and the occasional grammer textbook cite in order to prove their sides, and the thread will discuss this for 3 pages. Talk to your DM, then tell us whether or not you can use it.

Heighten Spell definitely gets around this argument, FYI, but you may not have the slot unless you're going Shadowcraft Mage. It's not a really useful metamagic for Beguilers.

Eh this is close enough to correct and I would also suggest talking to ones DM to avoid derailing the thread.

[Burley]

Heighten Spell definitely gets around this argument, FYI, but you may not have the slot unless you're going Shadowcraft Mage. It's not a really useful metamagic for Beguilers.

Just so I know... Why is Heighten not useful? I mean, being able to jack up the save DC on my Sleep spell seems pretty flippin' useful. I don't have a "save or be doomed" spell in each spell slot, so, I may as well make my lower level ones stronger, right?

What's the point of the Shadowcraft Mage, by the way? (Book and # of levels, would be dandy, too...)
I was looking at maybe taking Nightmare Spinner around 12th level. I'm only really missing out on a couple extra spells known, then, and the class abilities seem pretty powerful, albeit mildly situational...

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Just so I know... Why is Heighten not useful? I mean, being able to jack up the save DC on my Sleep spell seems pretty flippin' useful. I don't have a "save or be doomed" spell in each spell slot, so, I may as well make my lower level ones stronger, right?Because there's a lot of very similar Save-or-Lose spells on the Beguiler spell list. Why Heighten Charm Person when you can just cast Dominate? The feat isn't wasted, it's just that there's better things for you to take.
What's the point of the Shadowcraft Mage, by the way? (Book and # of levels, would be dandy, too...)
I was looking at maybe taking Nightmare Spinner around 12th level. I'm only really missing out on a couple extra spells known, then, and the class abilities seem pretty powerful, albeit mildly situational...Shadowcraft Mage allows you to sacrifice one Illusion:Figment(so, basically any 'X Image') spell to cast any Conjuration:Summoning, Conjuration:Creation, or Evocation spell(as Shadow Conjuration or Shadow Evocation) of one level lower spontaneously, though the enemy gets SR and a Will save. This is normally limited by the lack of Image spells over 5th level, but Heighten gets around that.