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View Full Version : Losing Spellcasting From Artifact Disjunction



Lysander
2009-09-01, 09:29 AM
Even artifacts are subject to disjunction, though there is only a 1% chance per caster level of actually affecting such powerful items. Additionally, if an artifact is destroyed, you must make a DC 25 Will save or permanently lose all spellcasting abilities. (These abilities cannot be recovered by mortal magic, not even miracle or wish.)

Let's say a level 20 wizard or sorcerer casts Disjunction and successfully destroys an artifact. They then fail their will save and lose all spellcasting ability. But they're still level 20.

What can a level 20 arcane caster achieve without spellcasting? They're still a pretty powerful person even without magic, just not compared to other level 20 people.

Could they still craft magic items? Probably not. Are scrolls and wands also banned, since technically they're still a spellcasting ability? I assume they retain their familiar. Also, a level 20 wizard probably has an enchanted castle, a giant mound of gold, and several powerful magic items too so those possessions factor into their overall power. Not to mention a valuable spellbook.

Would it be worthwhile to remain level 20? Or would deliberately losing levels somehow and then leveling up as another class be smarter?

I find the idea of magicians who have lost their magic pretty interesting. Imagine a game of several wizards who joined forces to destroy some evil artifact and lost all magic in the process. The game could be about them putting their lives back together. They'd have to solve problems without their spells, train apprentice wizards to use their spells in order to replace them, etc.

Eloel
2009-09-01, 09:34 AM
They could craft non-magical stuff for a LONG time, and re-level. With cash. Alot of it.

Kylarra
2009-09-01, 09:35 AM
Pretty powerful in the way that a 20th level commoner is "powerful" I suppose. :P

If they had prestige class levels they retroactively lose those (assuming they had casting pre-reqs), so you could be gimped down to <caster> level 5/6 just by losing your casting abilities.

You can't craft anymore because that requires you to cast the spells in question.

Wands would depend on how technically you define "losing all spellcasting" as they're spell completion items and thus having the spell on your class list allows you to use it.

Lysander
2009-09-01, 09:41 AM
Pretty powerful in the way that a 20th level commoner is "powerful" I suppose. :P

If they had prestige class levels they retroactively lose those (assuming they had casting pre-reqs), so you could be gimped down to <caster> level 5/6 just by losing your casting abilities.

You can't craft anymore because that requires you to cast the spells in question.

Wands would depend on how technically you define "losing all spellcasting" as they're spell completion items and thus having the spell on your class list allows you to use it.

I don't think they'd lose prc levels, they just wouldn't be able to use any spellcasting abilities they provide. At least arcane spellcasting abilities.

Would this also extend to divine spells, in the case of a mystic theurge or a dual wiz/cleric? Also, do other supernatural abilities like Wild Shape count as "spellcasting"?

Foryn Gilnith
2009-09-01, 09:43 AM
I think becoming an Elan resets you to level one. Becoming a necropolitan, being resurrected, becoming a necropolitan again, being resurrected, et cetera could reset you back to a level where you're fresh again. Bonus points if you started in rogue or binder or something, because then you can relevel with no dead levels.
Depending on how the restriction is interpreted, you could go down to level one, and then class into Shadowcaster; exchanging your arcane level (the first) for a shadowcaster level using Creeping Shadows or whatever that sidebar was called.

Worst-case scenario, you delevel to first, get Psychic Reformation to get rid of your feat, and level up to a build as if you had LA +1.

Level 20 commoner is a lot more useless than a level 1 character with enough connections to survive leveling up.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-09-01, 09:49 AM
Delevel with your previously created and still controlled wight minion. Regain all XP with Thought Bottle.

TADA! You're back at level 20 and have regained most of your powers.

Kylarra
2009-09-01, 09:50 AM
I don't think they'd lose prc levels, they just wouldn't be able to use any spellcasting abilities they provide. At least arcane spellcasting abilities.

Would this also extend to divine spells, in the case of a mystic theurge or a dual wiz/cleric? Also, do other supernatural abilities like Wild Shape count as "spellcasting"?Well they'd keep HD, BAB and saves, but all other abilities would be null. :smalltongue:


edit: I'd assume that other supernatural abilities would probably be fine, but since disjunction is in the magic domain, it probably nulls arcane and divine spellcasting equally.

woodenbandman
2009-09-01, 10:04 AM
Question is, why do you fail the save? I am pretty sure that there are a few things that guarantee you don't fail on a natural 1, and if you don't have a will save of +24, you're doing it really wrong.

Kylarra
2009-09-01, 10:08 AM
Question is, why do you fail the save? I am pretty sure that there are a few things that guarantee you don't fail on a natural 1, and if you don't have a will save of +24, you're doing it really wrong.DM fiat, the only reason you'd be losing class abilities or allowed to destroy an artifact in the first place.

Jack Zander
2009-09-01, 10:20 AM
Question is, why do you fail the save? I am pretty sure that there are a few things that guarantee you don't fail on a natural 1, and if you don't have a will save of +24, you're doing it really wrong.

A level 20 cleric will have an average Will save of 25 = 12 (Base) +8 (Wisdom) +5 (Cloak of Resistance)

However, a level 20 Wizard will only have a Will save of 17 = 12 (Base) +0 (Wisdom) +5 (Cloak of Resistance)

As far as not failing on a natural 1, I think nothing short of Divine ranks can get you that (for Will Saves anyway).

Foryn Gilnith
2009-09-01, 10:29 AM
Add more base will save from prestige classes, and add another +3 (borrow a periapt of wisdom for the momentous occasion of destroying an artifact) from Wisdom, some spell that grants a morale bonus, and you're golden to fail only on a 1.

quick_comment
2009-09-01, 10:35 AM
DM fiat, the only reason you'd be losing class abilities or allowed to destroy an artifact in the first place.

I once had a player who started to go a bit mad with disjunctions, and rather than disjunct his and the other player's equipment, I just told him to roll a percentile die the next time he disjoined. He got the point.



For the original topic, the wizard can retrain the last 20 levels into warblade.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-09-01, 10:40 AM
I'd advise Factotum. Even if you can't get rid of Wizard 1, you "only" lose 2 inspiration points, 1 Arcane Dilettante use, and 1 Opportunistic Piety use. You still get Arcane Dilettante up to 7th-level spells (it's a spell-like ability, not a spell, so you can keep it), intelligence to AC, +19 on any skill, Cunning Surge, and Cunning Brilliance.

Sophismata
2009-09-01, 12:09 PM
Technically, losing (or relearning) your 'dead' spellcasting levels doesn't grant you the ability to cast spells...


make a DC 25 Will save or permanently lose all spellcasting abilities. (These abilities cannot be recovered by mortal magic, not even miracle or wish.)


Has this ever actually come up in a game? Ideally, after the destruction of the Artifact of Doom, the Wizard goes on an epic quest to regain his magic.

Melamoto
2009-09-01, 12:18 PM
make a DC 25 Will save or permanently lose all spellcasting abilities. (These abilities cannot be recovered by mortal magic, not even miracle or wish.)

Give your friendly neighbourhood level 20 Cleric a call, and ask him to give his friendly neighbourhood deity a call. By the time you're level 20, you have enough influence to make 1 request from your god, especially if it would effectively give him a level 20 Wizard as a follower.

quick_comment
2009-09-01, 12:34 PM
You could also just use epic magic.

The heal seed "dispels all magical effects penalizing the character’s abilities, including effects caused by spells, even epic spells developed with the afflict seed"

Lysander
2009-09-01, 01:13 PM
Give your friendly neighbourhood level 20 Cleric a call, and ask him to give his friendly neighbourhood deity a call. By the time you're level 20, you have enough influence to make 1 request from your god, especially if it would effectively give him a level 20 Wizard as a follower.

Miracle is exactly that, asking your deity for a favor. And Disjunction specifically says Miracle can't restore the lost ability.

So the only way to get powers back is if a deity wants you to. I suppose you could try plane shifting and seeking a personal audience with the deity but even a good deity is likely to teleport you back to the material plane the way a person shoos a fly out the window.

Optimystik
2009-09-01, 01:45 PM
It would be fun for a Cleric who does this to become extremely bitter at his deity, lose some levels and start down the path of an Ur-Priest.

I like Belial's Thought Bottle idea too. Sneaky!

ericgrau
2009-09-01, 01:58 PM
Nah, thought bottle abuse is halfway between power-gaming and pun pun. Doesn't count.

I think practically a wizard's will save would be 12 (base) + 5-7 (items) + 0-2 (wis + possible ioun stone) + 0-2 (buffs) = 17-23. So chance of failure is still significant. If you're adding in prestige classes, splatbooks, etc. then the DM should make everything harder to match, or it skews balance on everything. Not just disjunction. Prep like borrowing items assumes you even knew you'd be disjoining an artifact. Most players wouldn't intentionally risk even a 1 in 20 chance of essentially eliminating their characters with almost no chance of return.

Lysander
2009-09-01, 03:05 PM
Of course the question isn't how can a wizard avoid losing all spellcasting. The odds are that they won't. It's what happens if it does. And lets say for the sake of argument, they can't get them back. No DM given divine quest. And let's say the player isn't allowed to level drain. They're stuck as a level 20 spell-less wizard. What now?

Foryn Gilnith
2009-09-01, 03:12 PM
Level drain? It's not that difficult. Even in Core, it costs a mere 1000 gp for each level taken away, provided you can get a trusted druid friend for your Reincarnates. It's by far the best option.

If we really can't change from worse-than-Commoner-20, it would really depend on the build. A strictly core Wizard 20? I'd just become a merchant of sorts, investing my funds to get more money. Or I'd retire like Ulic Qel-Droma did and live the rest of my life in meditation. Or just be a sage, if you want the easy way out.

Or take Martial Study (White Raven) at first level and be a Diplomancer.

ericgrau
2009-09-01, 03:15 PM
Why not just energy drain?

Starbuck_II
2009-09-01, 03:18 PM
Of course the question isn't how can a wizard avoid losing all spellcasting. The odds are that they won't. It's what happens if it does. And lets say for the sake of argument, they can't get them back. No DM given divine quest. And let's say the player isn't allowed to level drain. They're stuck as a level 20 spell-less wizard. What now?

How do you deny level drain?
You could a scroll easily by level 20.

Heck, I bet you could find some monsters who will do it for you.

quick_comment
2009-09-01, 03:22 PM
What now?

They have the other casters in the party level up and research an epic spell to give him his spellcasting back.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-09-01, 03:25 PM
Having a druid 7 friend is easier than having a wizard 17 friend. You may also be unable to activate scrolls, and monsters are too dangerous. On the other hand, dieing just to be reborn is also dangerous; but it has the added bonus of putting you back into a youthful body.

Blackfang108
2009-09-01, 03:25 PM
DM fiat, the only reason you'd be losing class abilities or allowed to destroy an artifact in the first place.

Um... DM Fiat?

An Artifact was disjoined in one of our games. The DM had the Sorceror roll the % dice, and told us which number was the Disjoint # before the roll.

That doesn't sound like Fiat to me.

Lysander
2009-09-01, 03:29 PM
They have the other casters in the party level up and research an epic spell to give him his spellcasting back.

Would an epic spell work? It can't be cured by "mortal magic." Does an epic spell mean it's no longer mortal?

Optimystik
2009-09-01, 03:34 PM
Would an epic spell work? It can't be cured by "mortal magic." Does an epic spell mean it's no longer mortal?

Epic spells can do just about anything, and indeed represent magic used by the gods. The Heal seed does look like it can reverse this.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-09-01, 03:35 PM
Heal spell speed: Cures all detrimental magic effects.
Disjunction: Debilitating condition is immune to all mortal magic.

A contradiction. GM is free to choose whichever side to pick.

Optimystik
2009-09-01, 03:38 PM
Heal spell speed: Cures all detrimental magic effects.
Disjunction: Debilitating condition is immune to all mortal magic.

A contradiction. GM is free to choose whichever side to pick.

Having a deity, demigod or other non-mortal cast an epic spell with the Heal Seed would eliminate that contradiction, as it would cease to be "mortal magic" at that point.

Cieyrin
2009-09-01, 03:56 PM
Mr. Spellless isn't strictly worse than a Commoner. He still has a familiar, a good Will save, more weapon proficiencies, magical equipment of a 20th level character,...that's about it, actually. If he was formerly a sorcerer, he just needs to put that high Charisma score to good use and retire to a leadership position and skill his way through life. Sure, he can't blast like he used to but he still has connections with powerful people and creatures, still knows plenty of magical theory and so on.

Cleric can still turn or rebuke undead and use divine feats, still has his domain powers and has the proficiencies to melee it up like the fighter he looked down upon for his lack of spell-casting capability. He could also settle down to running a church of the faith, as he's still fairly learned in the ways of his religion, perhaps more so than any other clerics in his faith on the world he lives. They should be happy to have such a learned individual around to pass on his wisdom to the new acolytes.

Wizards are pretty much doomed to sagehood or obscurity, as more than likely his only selling point after loss of spellcasting ability is that he has ranks in every Knowledge ability, making him a learned individual that others may seek for his insight into many matters. Sages get paid fairly well, last I recalled.

quick_comment
2009-09-01, 04:16 PM
Heal spell speed: Cures all detrimental magic effects.
Disjunction: Debilitating condition is immune to all mortal magic.

A contradiction. GM is free to choose whichever side to pick.

Epic spells are not really mortal magic. You can kill gods with them, you can reshape worlds and breathe life into inanimate objects.


Also, if you want to split hairs, a simple wish or miracle spell from an undead or elan would do they trick, as they are technically not mortal.

Optimystik
2009-09-01, 04:20 PM
Also, if you want to split hairs, a simple wish or miracle spell from an undead or elan would do they trick, as they are technically not mortal.

Wish and Miracle are still examples of mortal magic, in that they are beneath epic, regardless of the source. Antimagic Field draws a clear distinction between mortal magic and epic magic.

By your logic, an Efreeti's Wish should be more powerful than a Wizard's, because they aren't mortal either.

quick_comment
2009-09-01, 04:24 PM
Wish and Miracle are still examples of mortal magic, in that they are beneath epic, regardless of the source. Antimagic Field draws a clear distinction between mortal magic and epic magic.

By your logic, an Efreeti's Wish should be more powerful than a Wizard's, because they aren't mortal either.

Again, its not really a serious proposal, just pointing out they could have picked a better word to use than mortal. Non-deific or something

Optimystik
2009-09-01, 04:36 PM
Again, its not really a serious proposal, just pointing out they could have picked a better word to use than mortal. Non-deific or something

Oh no, I didn't think you were, and I didn't mean to come across dismissive :smallsmile: it's hard to convey these things through text sometimes.

But back on topic, yes epic magic could certainly restore the caster's abilities. After all, that's pretty much how a deity would do it.

Tiki Snakes
2009-09-01, 04:37 PM
Surely the level 20 commoner wizard is promptly ganked by his dozens of enemies and opportunistic gits? Why else would all wizards need to spend so much time thinking up careful contingencies and astral-projecting? :)

(Or, I suppose, lives out the rest of his natural life desperately hoping to avoid the above in some huge xanatos roulette bluff to fool people he's still got his mojo, or hides under a rock.)

quick_comment
2009-09-01, 04:43 PM
Ooh, thats a good point. Does the wizard still lose his spellcasting abilities if its his astral projection or simulacrum that disjuncts the artifact?

Foryn Gilnith
2009-09-01, 04:46 PM
Heck, just craft scrolls of Disjunction and get some flunkie to do it.

Kylarra
2009-09-01, 04:48 PM
Ooh, thats a good point. Does the wizard still lose his spellcasting abilities if its his astral projection or simulacrum that disjuncts the artifact?

I think we should assume that magic backtracks all the way to hit the source, simply because if the DM is going to be ganking your spellcasting, cheesy tricks won't be stopping it.

Optimystik
2009-09-01, 04:55 PM
Surely the level 20 commoner wizard is promptly ganked by his dozens of enemies and opportunistic gits? Why else would all wizards need to spend so much time thinking up careful contingencies and astral-projecting? :)

It gets worse than that. From Disjunction: "Destroying artifacts is a dangerous business, and it is 95% likely to attract the attention of some powerful being who has an interest in or connection with the device." So it might be a good idea to open your veins right there if you go disjoining the Asmodeus' Rod and lose your own powers in the process.

quick_comment
2009-09-01, 04:57 PM
I think we should assume that magic backtracks all the way to hit the source, simply because if the DM is going to be ganking your spellcasting, cheesy tricks won't be stopping it.

Its no different than if a summoned monster used disjunction though. If I gate in a solar and tell him to disjunct the artifact, he gets hit with loss of spellcasting, not me.

Kylarra
2009-09-01, 05:01 PM
Its no different than if a summoned monster used disjunction though. If I gate in a solar and tell him to disjunct the artifact, he gets hit with loss of spellcasting, not me.
Or so your DM would like you to think. :smallamused:

Foryn Gilnith
2009-09-01, 05:13 PM
Or just have a cleric ally on-hand with a copy of Epic Heal. DC 45 for a one-action casting time Heal Seed, then add 11d6 backlash damage for the lulz. DC 34, easily castable with a +24 modifier.

Starshade
2009-09-01, 05:14 PM
Would not said Solar also count as not mortal, for the purposes of healing that effect?

Foryn Gilnith
2009-09-01, 05:20 PM
It has a set number of hit points, and a way to reduce those hit points. It's mortal. :)

quick_comment
2009-09-01, 05:23 PM
It has a set number of hit points, and a way to reduce those hit points. It's mortal. :)

You could say the same about Pelor.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-09-01, 05:29 PM
Ergo, the only entity capable of reversing a loss of spellcasting from Disjunction would be something like the Lady of Pain. :smalltongue:

Again, I'd say that everything about this comes down to the GM. If you're destroying artifacts without him/her, I'm not sure what game you're playing.

Tukka
2009-09-01, 05:31 PM
However, a level 20 Wizard will only have a Will save of 17 = 12 (Base) +0 (Wisdom) +5 (Cloak of Resistance)

As far as not failing on a natural 1, I think nothing short of Divine ranks can get you that (for Will Saves anyway).
Moment of Perfect Mind.

A novice ring of the Diamond Mind (for a mere 3000 gp) will get you that.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-09-01, 05:45 PM
If you're adding in prestige classes, splatbooks, etc. then the DM should make everything harder to match, or it skews balance on everything.

Power creep indeed.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-09-01, 06:43 PM
Moment of Prescience + Luckblade

Get a +25 bonus to a saving throw and reroll if you roll a 1. So essentially you auto-succeed against the disjunction's save.


But if you just disjoined the Nyx's own Shroud of Night, there's still a 95% probability Gaia's oldest, meanest sister will retroactively erase you from Creation anyway.

Starbuck_II
2009-09-01, 06:52 PM
You could say the same about Pelor.

Pelor of the Burning Sun or the Good Pelor?

deuxhero
2009-09-01, 06:58 PM
But if you just disjoined the Nyx's own Shroud of Night, there's still a 95% probability Gaia's oldest, meanest sister will retroactively erase you from Creation anyway.

But Nyx can't be killed as long as people wish for death!


err...

You could get a vampire to help you, I don't think they are "mortal" (if they are, it is very confusing how they call everyone "mortal")

Cieyrin
2009-09-01, 08:15 PM
Heck, just craft scrolls of Disjunction and get some flunkie to do it.

If disjunction backtracks to the creator of the effect, I don't see scrolls of Disjunction being on the market, as who wants to chance some mook using it to break artifacts and you losing your powers? Not something I'd want to chance. I don't think even Artificers would want to chance that, either, as they're probably just as easily affected, even if they have to UMD to create whatever, they still made the scroll. That would be one sad artificer.:smallfrown:

taltamir
2009-09-15, 07:49 PM
Miracle is exactly that, asking your deity for a favor. And Disjunction specifically says Miracle can't restore the lost ability.

So the only way to get powers back is if a deity wants you to. I suppose you could try plane shifting and seeking a personal audience with the deity but even a good deity is likely to teleport you back to the material plane the way a person shoos a fly out the window.

miracle is actually using your own powers to cast a cleric wish... with your deity capable of:
1. Preventing it from occuring
2. Let it happen with the 5000XP cost
3. Let it happen for free.

Have a cleric use a much lower level to simply SEND a message to the god... or just go the local temple and PRAY... you are a level 20 wizard, one of the most powerful mortals in the world. Getting a god to restore your powers in exchange for services (to be granted before or after) is how it is supposed to be handled.

if you look over the fluff, you would see that the reason you lose casting in the first place is that a god TOOK it from you as punishment for destroying his/her artifact.