Vaarsuvius prediction

[Kish]

Second prediction thread I've ever started. First one was about Vaarsuvius, too. Once again, I will probably drop this on the table and leave it there.

Vaarsuvius will never again do anything as bad (voluntarily, at least) as s/he did when spliced. In fact, s/he will act, for the rest of the comic, in a fashion more compatible with a Good alignment than s/he ever did before the Soul Splice. Perhaps s/he will die in the story, perhaps the story will end with Vaarsuvius alive but liable to die one day as most mortals do even in D&D, or perhaps s/he will be eaten by the Snarl. S/he will not end the story immortal. If s/he dies, either on stage or after the story ends, we will never be told where s/he winds up.

[Optimystik]

I hope not. Having everyone in the party Good (including Belkar's tricky Pseudo-Good) would remove a lot of the group's internal conflict and make things duller. In other words, now NOBODY will represent the "halfling's viewpoint" - not even the halfling!

I think guilt will keep him on the straight and narrow for awhile, but when he snaps out of his funk he'll go back to a comfortably neutral position.

[Kaytara]

Wow. Someone brought V back into the discussion spotlight and it wasn't me.

That said, for the most part these predictions seem a little redundant. When a character overcomes a major personality issue, the assumption is that they stay that way. Predicting that they won't get it again seems kind of superfluous, like saying that Haley won't ever again have self-confidence issues as severe as the ones she had in War and XPs.

V not becoming immortal also doesn't seem very meaningful, since... why would he, exactly?


In fact, s/he will act, for the rest of the comic, in a fashion more compatible with a Good alignment than s/he ever did before the Soul Splice.
Sorry, beat you here. :P (As befits a shameless V apologist,) I've been saying many times back when this discussion was still on that it is entirely probable and would be brilliant writing for Vaarsuvius to actually become Good(ish) rather than Neutral after his dip into the deep end of the alignment pool. XD
In slight disagreement with Optimystik, I don't think it would remove a source of tension or comedy, either. V is still pragmatic enough, he's just somewhat more thoughtful about it now.


If s/he dies, either on stage or after the story ends, we will never be told where s/he winds up.
Okay, this is interesting. :) A definite argument in your favour is that it would fit the whole ambiguity theme that surrounds Vaarsuvius in almost every aspect. While the ultimate fate of one of the six major protagonists (more to the point, eternal torture or no eternal torture) seems like a too major thing to leave hanging, it would also neatly save Rich from having to hammer morality into our heads and let each viewer decide for himself what kind of Afterlife V would deserve.

So in general I would agree, with one adjustment. I think that, if the issue of his Afterlife is not resolved, then we'll still get a hint that we'll be able to interpret one way if it agrees with our pre-existing views and discard if it doesn't. If this issue doesn't get definitely resolved, then it won't be completely ignored, either.

[factotum]

I hope not. Having everyone in the party Good (including Belkar's tricky Pseudo-Good) would remove a lot of the group's internal conflict and make things duller.

It's entirely possible for two characters who are both Good to have plenty of conflict--just ask Roy and Eugene Greenhilt! As far as conflict between V and the rest of the group is concerned, he only ever really had major conflict with Belkar, and I'm sure that will still exist since it's basically a conflict of personality rather than alignment.

In short, even if V acts more toward the Good end of the spectrum I don't think it'll change the internal conflicts in the group one iota.

[Optimystik]

It's entirely possible for two characters who are both Good to have plenty of conflict--just ask Roy and Eugene Greenhilt!

Eugene may have been Good in a cosmic sense, in that he battled evil, but he was exceedingly selfish and petty to his child. So there are other factors at play there besides simple alignment.


As far as conflict between V and the rest of the group is concerned, he only ever really had major conflict with Belkar, and I'm sure that will still exist since it's basically a conflict of personality rather than alignment.

Not so. V's feud with Belkar was quite petty compared to this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0505.html) and especially this. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0597.html) He himself refers to it as "juvenile pranks with a sociopathic halfling!"


In short, even if V acts more toward the Good end of the spectrum I don't think it'll change the internal conflicts in the group one iota.

He'll be more patient with the others' density, less disdainful of their chosen professions, less likely to play devil's advocate to their heroic impulses... in short, duller. But then, Haley herself slid a bit more towards Neutral, so maybe it'll balance out.

[spargel]

Does that mean V will start to become competent?

[Dark Faun]

Come on. V was very competent during the siege of Azure City.

[Optimystik]

Come on. V was very competent during the siege of Azure City.

Not to mention the Chimera, Ogres, making the sorceress run out of spells, both dragons, the Pit Fiend...

[David Argall]

Second prediction thread I've ever started. First one was about Vaarsuvius, too. Once again, I will probably drop this on the table and leave it there.

Vaarsuvius will never again do anything as bad (voluntarily, at least) as s/he did when spliced. In fact, s/he will act, for the rest of the comic, in a fashion more compatible with a Good alignment than s/he ever did before the Soul Splice. Perhaps s/he will die in the story, perhaps the story will end with Vaarsuvius alive but liable to die one day as most mortals do even in D&D, or perhaps s/he will be eaten by the Snarl. S/he will not end the story immortal. If s/he dies, either on stage or after the story ends, we will never be told where s/he winds up.

What you seem to be saying is that V is going to become dull and little more than scenery for most of the rest of the story [the battle for the gate, where fiendish time comes into play being an exception], that really the only reason for her to be around is that a party needs a mage just as it needs a cleric.
So hopefully you are quite wrong.

[spargel]

V seems to lose most of her mage duels though.

[hamishspence]

Good does not always equal Dull.

A V's Redemption story might be rather more interesting for some of us than a V Keeps Doing Evil story.

and "being good" does not translate into "being little more than scenery"

[spargel]

V only did one really evil act during the soul splice. Everything after that was neutralish/good, so it would be more like "V keeps being a jerk" instead of "V keeps doing evil".

[hamishspence]

Maybe. The claim that "V will never do anything that bad again = V will be dull" was what I was responding to,

since it seems to make the assumption that V has to keep doing things at least as bad as the worst thing V did during the splice, just to remain interesting.

[Optimystik]

Good does not always equal Dull.

A V's Redemption story might be rather more interesting for some of us than a V Keeps Doing Evil story.

and "being good" does not translate into "being little more than scenery"

I didn't say he should do Evil, but without more moral grey on the team I just don't see them having as much internal conflict. Particularly with the Linear Guild around the corner, their inevitable defeat, and the question of what the Good Guys will do with them THIS time.

[Kish]

Maybe. The claim that "V will never do anything that bad again = V will be dull" was what I was responding to,

since it seems to make the assumption that V has to keep doing things at least as bad as the worst thing V did during the splice, just to remain interesting.

Well, I'll predict further: If Vaarsuvius ever again (voluntarily) does anything quite as bad as the worst thing s/he did during the splice, 1) I'll be astounded and 2) his/her life expectancy will be measured in seconds thereafter, with either obliteration by Snarl or an immediate, permanent, and unambiguous drop to one of the lower planes following.

No narrative point to crossing the moral event horizon twice.

[Optimystik]

Well, I'll predict further: If Vaarsuvius ever again (voluntarily) does anything quite as bad as the worst thing s/he did during the splice, 1) I'll be astounded and 2) his/her life expectancy will be measured in seconds thereafter, with either obliteration by Snarl or an immediate, permanent, and unambiguous drop to one of the lower planes following.

I don't think anyone's suggesting that. This was the line I was objecting to:


In fact, s/he will act, for the rest of the comic, in a fashion more compatible with a Good alignment than s/he ever did before the Soul Splice.

V was Good before the Soul Splice at one point (#128, #172); he was just as dull then as he would be if your prediction came to pass fully. A neutral and snarky V is much more of a catalyst in my book, especially now that Belkar won't be as starkly Evil to contrast everyone else.

[Thanatosia]

I think a lot of how V plays out from here on will have to do with the personality of Blackwing. Seems he's gonna be the angel or demon perched on V's shoulder, and V now respects his input, so will probably have a fair bit of sway in V's future actions.

[hamishspence]

I wouldn't class either of those as proof of a good alignment- merely evidence that V sometimes has concern for the feelings of others.

Good can certainly be snarky (Roy is most notable example) and V's attitude to the dirt farmers a few strips later seems more suggestive of a Neutral alignment.

If V has learned that there is more to life than arcane power, that might mean character development- from power-hungry wizard to a more rounded personality.

[Elfin]

I hope not. Having everyone in the party Good (including Belkar's tricky Pseudo-Good) would remove a lot of the group's internal conflict and make things duller. In other words, now NOBODY will represent the "halfling's viewpoint" - not even the halfling!

I think guilt will keep him on the straight and narrow for awhile, but when he snaps out of his funk he'll go back to a comfortably neutral position.

Agreed.
[filler]

[Kaytara]

No narrative point to crossing the moral event horizon twice.

Hate to be picky here, but V never crossed that the first time. The fact that you're suggesting a second time proves that. A MEH is a point of no return. If V crossed it and returned to a position where he can potentially cross it again, then it wasn't a MEH in the first place.

If a character crosses a MEH, there are no fans hoping for his redemption, pitying, supporting or still sympathising with him. Even if the character IS redeemed afterwards, everyone - and I do mean everyone, this is just the thing that makes a MEH a MEH - still just wants them to die painfully. So the fact that V is now again at least remotely likeable and sympathetic to many (though certainly not all) readers excludes the possibility of a MEH.

[Optimystik]

Good can certainly be snarky (Roy is most notable example) and V's attitude to the dirt farmers a few strips later seems more suggestive of a Neutral alignment.

You've just highlighted my point beautifully; the dirt farmer behavior is when his character began getting interesting. It was, in fact, the very first time he actually objected to Roy's instructions - a feat his lackey Durkon has yet to pull off.

Roy is snarky, true, but this is part of his "tough guy" facade. The real Roy was the one playing blocks with his brother and looking sorry in the angel's hot seat. (Incidentally, notice that his deva also views snarky attitude as unfitting for LG.)


If V has learned that there is more to life than arcane power, that might mean character development- from power-hungry wizard to a more rounded personality.

This I agree with wholeheartedly; I'm just hoping it won't turn him into a wallflower. With everyone in the party acting Good, what need would there be to hear his opinion? (Except on matters of spellcraft, that is.)

[SeventhCircle]

I still think that V has yet to achieve "ultimate arcane power" as prophesied by the Oracle, so we may see that just before he dies.

[factotum]

Not so. V's feud with Belkar was quite petty compared to this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0505.html) and especially this. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0597.html) He himself refers to it as "juvenile pranks with a sociopathic halfling!"


And both those events happened when V was half-mad through not trancing. He hasn't been like that for the majority of the strip, and I don't see him returning to that sort of behaviour anytime soon.

[Kaytara]

A potential source of drama/comedy would be Belkar noticing V's changes in attitude and trying to rile him up to become his more interesting old self again.

[hamishspence]

This I agree with wholeheartedly; I'm just hoping it won't turn him into a wallflower. With everyone in the party acting Good, what need would there be to hear his opinion? (Except on matters of spellcraft, that is.)

There are other reasons to disagree over things than just "Good Vs Neutral"

"Plan ahead vs Rush in" is one example- Roy tends to be impetuous- and its possible that even death has not cured him of that tendency. Whereas V has had it rubbed in, that failure to plan ahead, leads to massive beat-down and needing to be rescued.

Its not too hard to imagine minor tensions over this sort of thing.

And given Haley's behaviour to date, I would not be entirely surprised if she gets to play "party pragmatist" the way Belkar used to.

[Optimystik]

A potential source of drama/comedy would be Belkar noticing V's changes in attitude and trying to rile him up to become his more interesting old self again.

That sounds too much like what Old Belkar would do. The new one tends not to rock the boat so as to avoid notice. (Such as covering for Evil V.)


There are other reasons to disagree over things than just "Good Vs Neutral"

"Plan ahead vs Rush in" is one example- Roy tends to be impetuous- and its possible that even death has not cured him of that tendency. Whereas V has had it rubbed in, that failure to plan ahead, leads to massive beat-down and needing to be rescued.

I think Roy has very much learned that lesson, judging by his attitude at the war council. So that's one less opportunity for tension.


And given Haley's behaviour to date, I would not be entirely surprised if she gets to play "party pragmatist" the way Belkar used to.

That seems more likely, but with a CG boyfriend, it'll take a lot to really bring out the bad (or in this case, non-good) girl in her.

[Tijne]

I believe V's lesson was
"I shouldn't act so recklessly." not "I did something bad and must repent". I don't believe he crossed ANY 'Moral Event Horizon'.

V's only regret was that he didn't succeed. He's been this way since he abandoned those solidiers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0623.html); and since every event after that made it worse (like him believing it was his fault Belkar and Haley became trapped behind enemy lines; and how he can't even find them after it.. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0504.html)). When V finally gained enough power so that he -could- succeed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html), instead of doing the 'smart' thing, he ... squandered its true potential by wielding it like a cudgel. Only when he lost it did he stop to consider what he was doing, and only then did he become effective. He accomplished NOTHING by just attacking. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html)

Realizing that it was not just his magical ability that was 'weak', but his own reckless actions, V will become much more cooperative and calculative; but more importantly, I believe he will become similar to Belkar; a new team player. Maybe he'll finally realized that everytime he failed, it was because he was on his own?.

In terms of morals, V didn't do absolutely -anything- a reckless True Neutral person wouldn't have done; I would have done exactly the same as him (Probably less effectively) if I was in his position and I would neither have been "evil" with the Soul Splice, nor feel the need to be 'extra good and repent' afterwards. The entire series of events, so I believe were to help resolve V's superior/inferiority complexes that had been developing. And as an added bonus, he'll hopefully become more cooperative when Roy asks him to help out.

So my prediction is that his alignment will not change.

[Optimystik]

In terms of morals, V didn't do absolutely -anything- a reckless True Neutral person wouldn't have done

Except this. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html) (Note also the title of that strip.)

[Acero]

also, V did not talk at all during our most recent script.
he could be taking a more quiet approach to life/ adventuring, possibly in an attempt to find inner peace. maybe even take a few ranks in monk?

it could happen...

[AlexanderRM]

Not to mention the Chimera, Ogres, making the sorceress run out of spells, both dragons, the Pit Fiend...

In fact, the general opinion/whatever seems to be that V is the strongest member of the order (not just by him/herself, Haley referred to V as "our strongest character" during the battle in Azure City).

[Kaytara]

I believe V's lesson was
"I shouldn't act so recklessly." not "I did something bad and must repent". I don't believe he crossed ANY 'Moral Event Horizon'.

O-Chul: "Thank you once again for all that you have done."
V: " Please, do not remind me of all that I have done.":smallfrown:

I think it DOES go a bit further than just "I made a strategical mistake" and on to "I did something BAD". The way things came out with Kyrie also seem to be making him feel guilty.

[Watcher]

V was Good before the Soul Splice at one point (#128, #172)...


Obviously, you have the good. Or the neutral, as the case may be. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html)
I think he has always been neutral.


V's Charisma is (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0128.html) none at all.
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0312.html)

A character with a high Intelligence but low Charisma may be a know-it-all or a reclusive scholar.

V has always been the first one, being a "Know-it-all'' with "Mighty" Arcane Magic that he is willing to let everyone know, even being startled when they fall asleep (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0010.html). Now, I believe V's just gone to the other end of the high INT, low CHA discription, which is "Reclusive Scholar"

[Optimystik]

I think he has always been neutral.

No, were he neutral during the events I mentioned he wouldn't care so much about the feelings of his teammate. Plus the whole Unholy Blight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html) thing.

He gradually shifted to Neutral, most likely sometime around the Dirt Farmer incident as others have mentioned, which then led to the Fiends' comment much later.

And this latest strip does seem to be snapping him out of his brown study and back to Neutrality, which I love! :smallbiggrin:

[moxproxy]

Wow. For a second there I was actually worried V would snap again. Like, for realz, y'all.

Yeah, I wouldn't worry much about lack of tension here... :smallbiggrin: