PDA

View Full Version : Kobold Fighter ACF Abuse



Cieyrin
2009-09-01, 01:14 PM
I'm not sure if it's been done or not but someone must have noticed that the ACF for Kobold Fighters replaces bonus feats for additional ability points. Normally, no big deal, it's canceling out the racial penalties they receive, so they end up at +2 Dex, but there must be some way of taking advantage of the +4 Str and +2 Con you get through the ACFs so that you come ahead. Some variant Kobold or something else that still leaves you at LA +0 and rocking those extra stat points.

Boci
2009-09-01, 01:28 PM
Even if you cancel out your racial penalties, you're still small size though, which isn't the best for a fighter.

Bayar
2009-09-01, 01:31 PM
Those replace your bonus feats at level 1 2 and 4. Other ACF's do the same thing. Cant see how this could be abused.

Cieyrin
2009-09-01, 01:37 PM
Those replace your bonus feats at level 1 2 and 4. Other ACF's do the same thing. Cant see how this could be abused.

I'm aware that's what they replace (what else does a fighter really have to lose, really, other than proficiencies, which I believe they lose as well for other features). I'm just not aware of another substitution class level set (which is what they are; stupid doing it from memory ~_~) that gives you ability score bonuses, hence why I think this has some potential.

Keld Denar
2009-09-01, 01:47 PM
Unfortunately, there is no pseudo-kobald PrC like there is in Stoneblessed (allows you to be treated as a Dwarf/Gnome/Goliath for many respects) that would allow you to qualify for kobald racial subs despite beings....a Dragonborn Water Orc, for example.

Bayar
2009-09-01, 01:48 PM
Since, for example, you would have been an Earth Kobold (-2 STR, -2 CON), you would now have no racial stat modifiers. Kinda like humans, only much worse.

I came to the conclusion that only the first kobold fighter ACF would be worth taking, if you want to use spears. Because taking 4 levels of a class that gives you +2 to STR and +2 to CON to NEGATE your racial penalties smells like lost levels. Better off playing a Dragonborn Water Orc.

Take this example (which the guys at BG gave to me before): Take a normal Kobold. Get for your first level: Lion Totem Barbarian + Whirling Frenzy. Have max points in STR (14 STR after racial). Get Multiattack because of the RotD Web Enhancement 2. Proceed to charge and full attack everybody. Then, get 2 more levels of Totemist. For even more natural attacks. Not only will you eat faces, but you will also have a better AC than the normal barbarian.


Edit @V: Needs more Venerable Dragonwrought.

Fax Celestis
2009-09-01, 01:49 PM
Try one of the UA variants.
Arctic: -2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution, -2 Wisdom
Desert: -4 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -2 Wisdom
Jungle: -4 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -2 Intelligence
Earth: -2 Strength, -2 Constitution

I'd say an Earth Kobold Fighter 4/Gold, Red, or Silver Dragon Bloodline 3/Sorcerer 1/Dragon Disciple 8/Anything 4 could have crazy stats.

Gold Dragon Bloodline gives +1 Str, Con, Int.
Silver Dragon Bloodline gives +1 Str, Con, Cha.
Red Dragon Bloodline gives +1 Str, Con, Cha.
Dragon Disciple gives +4 Str, +2 Con, +2 Int.

So, Gold Dragon-blooded Earth Kobold with the above has final racial adjusts of: +7 str, +2 dex, +3 con, +3 Int. Not bad, but it's a bit of a weird way to boost yourself.

Glimbur
2009-09-01, 02:09 PM
Can Changelings take these ACF's? I seem to recall something about them cheating racial requirements, but am not clear on how exactly that works.

woodenbandman
2009-09-01, 02:24 PM
Unfortunately not worth it. Even as a kobold, 3 feats is better. Maybe something like Tunnel Fighting, Underfoot Combat, and Confound the Big Folk added to any given kobold fighter build would be awesome (especially since they have Slight Build).

Cieyrin
2009-09-01, 02:58 PM
Try one of the UA variants.
Arctic: -2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution, -2 Wisdom
Desert: -4 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -2 Wisdom
Jungle: -4 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -2 Intelligence
Earth: -2 Strength, -2 Constitution

I'd say an Earth Kobold Fighter 4/Gold, Red, or Silver Dragon Bloodline 3/Sorcerer 1/Dragon Disciple 8/Anything 4 could have crazy stats.

Gold Dragon Bloodline gives +1 Str, Con, Int.
Silver Dragon Bloodline gives +1 Str, Con, Cha.
Red Dragon Bloodline gives +1 Str, Con, Cha.
Dragon Disciple gives +4 Str, +2 Con, +2 Int.

So, Gold Dragon-blooded Earth Kobold with the above has final racial adjusts of: +7 str, +2 dex, +3 con, +3 Int. Not bad, but it's a bit of a weird way to boost yourself.

Bloodlines 0_0. *shiver*

Andy Collins' original version that he used for his campaign seemed far more useful that the Bloodline level mechanic that made it into UA. I guess he decided that there had to be some cost associated with gaining such, so not everybody would jump at having some crazy bloodline for making them more awesome and it kinda fell towards an LA type deal. Still a bit better than LA but not by much, I say.

I also looked at the variant Kobold races in UA and it doesn't come out to much better than standard Kobold. You either get a +2 somewhere else or gain a mental penalty, which isn't exactly what I was looking for. I was kinda figuring there was some trick where it's not an equalizing effect but an actual boost.

Darrin
2009-09-01, 04:01 PM
Unfortunately, there is no pseudo-kobald PrC like there is in Stoneblessed (allows you to be treated as a Dwarf/Gnome/Goliath for many respects) that would allow you to qualify for kobald racial subs despite beings....a Dragonborn Water Orc, for example.

Try the "Shaper of Form" PrC in Dragon Compendium. Modify Self (ex) allows you to change your race, although its pretty darned vague on the mechanics.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-01, 08:27 PM
The type of bonus is never mentioned, so it may remain through Polymorphing. That would be worth it on a meleer who plans to always be Polymorphed.

HCL
2009-09-01, 08:35 PM
IMO the best way to use a kobold fighter is to take the first level sub (for the spears and dodge), the slight build errata so you qualify as tiny for whatever purpose you need, and the underfoot fighting feats in races of the wild

being a dragonwrought with wings also will allow you to make dive attacks

I think it can make a flavorful and fun character but by no means top tier

Bayar
2009-09-02, 03:53 AM
The type of bonus is never mentioned, so it may remain through Polymorphing. That would be worth it on a meleer who plans to always be Polymorphed.

So, you would sacrifice 4 caster levels for +2 to STR and +2 to CON even when polymorped ? Go Draconic Polymorph instead.

FMArthur
2009-09-02, 04:19 AM
IMO the best way to use a kobold fighter is to take the first level sub (for the spears and dodge), the slight build errata so you qualify as tiny for whatever purpose you need, and the underfoot fighting feats in races of the wild

being a dragonwrought with wings also will allow you to make dive attacks

I think it can make a flavorful and fun character but by no means top tier

Kobolds are one of the only races that can actually pull off "longspear in one hand, shield in the other", taking full advantage of the Formation Expert feat. Slight Build means that a kobold can wield a reach weapon (all of which are two-handed) of one size category smaller as a one-handed weapon at no penalty, and the first level kobold fighter racial substitution level works towards this style at least.

This is still quite poor for players without Leadership (or teamwork during character construction) but with Wolfpack and other things, kobold groups can make for formidable opponents for the PCs even without traps and clever cave design. Throw in a Sneak Attack Thug level or three and they suddenly have bonus damage to put into it, too. Enough build synergy can make even the most improbable of characters strong enough to compete. :smallwink:

Bayar
2009-09-02, 05:01 AM
Cant take thug levels since it removes ALL bonus feats...

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-02, 07:26 AM
Cant take thug levels since it removes ALL bonus feats...

That's the Sneak Attack fighter.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-02, 01:45 PM
So, you would sacrifice 4 caster levels for +2 to STR and +2 to CON even when polymorped ? Go Draconic Polymorph instead.No, I'm talking make a Kobold Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Kobold Fighter 4/Warblade X with a caster ally casting PAO twice.