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Paganboy28
2009-09-01, 02:04 PM
Are there any rules for these prior denizens of the Nine Hells?

arguskos
2009-09-01, 02:13 PM
No. They've only been mentioned once or twice in all of D&D as far as I'm aware. Much like how the Wind Dukes of Aatqua aren't mentioned much, but even less. :smalltongue:

Which is sad to my mind, because they sound cool as all hell. Then again, I personally love ancient planar secrets, so I'm all over that stuff. I would have payed for more books like the Fiendish Codices, but it wasn't to be. :smallfrown:

kamikasei
2009-09-01, 02:15 PM
Let's ask Asmodeus.

"Hey Asmodeus, do you know anything about the original Baatorans?"

"Yes. They were delicious."

"Nyoro~n..."

hamishspence
2009-09-01, 02:16 PM
Their leader, Zargon The Returner, is statted out in Elder Evils.

Paganboy28
2009-09-01, 02:18 PM
Let's ask Asmodeus.

"Hey Asmodeus, do you know anything about the original Baatorans?"

"Yes. They were delicious."

"Nyoro~n..."


Isn't there some fluff that the Baatorans are still alive somewhere in Hell, but just so deep that they cannot get out.

Is Asmodeus the last remaining Baatoran and then created the Devils to do his own bidding.... (I know what Mr Big is up to...).

hamishspence
2009-09-01, 02:24 PM
Manual of the Planes, page 121:


Maggoth Thyg: Rumors describe ancient places built below the surface of Malbolge, Below the hellish rock and stone, creatures older than the devils themselves- the ancient baatorians- might still roam.

A certain hard-to-find defile leads to a cavern whose walls glow with a brain-numbing, grayish light. Boulder falls often clog the defile, but somehow the cavern is reopened time and time again. Devils sent by the Lord of the Sixth to investigate have never returned.

Terrible cries sometimes issue forth from the cavern, echoing across Malbolge's slopes. Strangely, petitioners on this level cannot hear the cries. But devils can, and the sound is innately terrifying to them.

Paganboy28
2009-09-01, 02:31 PM
Manual of the Planes, page 121:


Maggoth Thyg: Rumors describe ancient places built below the surface of Malbolge, Below the hellish rock and stone, creatures older than the devils themselves- the ancient baatorians- might still roam.

A certain hard-to-find defile leads to a cavern whose walls glow with a brain-numbing, grayish light. Boulder falls often clog the defile, but somehow the cavern is reopened time and time again. Devils sent by the Lord of the Sixth to investigate have never returned.

Terrible cries sometimes issue forth from the cavern, echoing across Malbolge's slopes. Strangely, petitioners on this level cannot hear the cries. But devils can, and the sound is innately terrifying to them.

That's the one. If devils are scared of it then, whatever it is must be powerful.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-09-01, 02:32 PM
Or have a high DC for Frightful Presence...

kamikasei
2009-09-01, 02:34 PM
Isn't there some fluff that the Baatorans are still alive somewhere in Hell, but just so deep that they cannot get out.

I'll be honest. I was just setting up a "nyoro~n" joke.

I'm surprised the Fiendish Codices don't give details on the Baatorans the way they do on the ancient dwellers in the Abyss, though. Maybe it's intended that they be scarier in their obscurity.

hamishspence
2009-09-01, 02:38 PM
There is a passing reference in Fiendish Codex 1 to the legend that the ancient baatorians and the obyriths are descended from an older race- the baernoloths, but aside from that, there is very little detail in 3.0 and 3.5.

Elder Evils mentions that Zargon was "the father of the ancient baatorians" and that Asmodeus butchered most of them himself, but he could not permanently slay Zargon.

Mordokai
2009-09-01, 02:42 PM
Never heard of them...

So let me get this straight... baatorans are to devils like obyriths are to demons?

arguskos
2009-09-01, 02:44 PM
Never heard of them...

So let me get this straight... baatorans are to devils like obyriths are to demons?
Eh... no. Obyriths are the direct ancestors of ta'anari. Baatorans simply occupied the area Asmodeus wanted to commandeer for his Hell, so he wiped them out.

Basically, Baatorans didn't actually evolve into devilkind, but were replaced by them.

Mordokai
2009-09-01, 02:45 PM
I would be interested in knowing more about this :smallsmile:

Tiki Snakes
2009-09-01, 02:46 PM
I'll be honest. I was just setting up a "nyoro~n" joke.

I'm surprised the Fiendish Codices don't give details on the Baatorans the way they do on the ancient dwellers in the Abyss, though. Maybe it's intended that they be scarier in their obscurity.

I would imagine their obscurity would be what makes them scarier to the Devils, at least.

hamishspence
2009-09-01, 02:47 PM
Not really. Obyriths created the tanar'ri from Chaotic Evil mortal souls, and some have metamorphosed into tanar'ri themselves- such as the wastriliths in Fiend Folio.

The ancient baatorians, by contrast, have little in common with the devils- they were supplanted by them when Asmodeus and his minions first seized the Nine Hells.

EDIT: Ninjaed.

For details on the origins of the tanar'ri, Demonomicon of Iggwilv, especially Demogorgon and Malcanthet, in Dragon Magazine, has the most.

arguskos
2009-09-01, 02:49 PM
I would be interested in knowing more about this :smallsmile:
There isn't much more to know really. One of the stories of the First Devil's fall from grace says that when he said to the the gods "I'll take there", it was actually occupied with wicked creatures, so he killed them all, and turned it into hell.

As hamishpence so correctly stated though, Zargon the Returned, master and most powerful Baatoran, was unkillable by Asmodeus, so he was banished to the material plane.

That's... about it, actually. The Baatorans were included to give the devils a semi-analogue to the obyriths, but with more mystery and only semi-applicable.

hamishspence
2009-09-01, 02:56 PM
In theory, one could stat out lesser baatorians by using Zargon as a template.

Might be interesting to run a "Depths of Malbolge" campaign with the rumored remnants of the baatorians playing a part.

Mordokai
2009-09-01, 02:56 PM
Too bad, FCs are one of my favourite suplements. And they are awfully short as it is. To know there are things that I might be missing but have reason to be there is kinda sad.

Hijax
2009-09-01, 03:00 PM
In theory, one could stat out lesser baatorians by using Zargon as a template.

Might be interesting to run a "Depths of Malbolge" campaign with the rumored remnants of the baatorians playing a part.

I agree wholeheartedly.

arguskos
2009-09-01, 03:01 PM
Eh, it's WotC. Their track record isn't amazing IMO.

As for statting out the baatorans, considering we know nothing about them save for a single, unique, representative, I wouldn't worry too much about "reverse engineering" them. Just find a theme that works for you (ie. create creatures more lawful and more evil than devils already are) and run from there.

A campaign about them WOULD be hardcore though. :smallamused:

hamishspence
2009-09-01, 03:04 PM
The obyriths seemed to have more chaotic powers, but less evil powers (word of chaos, instead of blasphemy, and so on) suggesting they were Chaotic first, Evil second.

They also had a line of feats players could take, a bit like Vile feats, but more Chaotic than Evil.

Same might apply to baatorians, but with Law.

Paganboy28
2009-09-01, 03:07 PM
Zargon is "only" CR16...

As father of the baatorians and most powerful... no wonder they were wiped out.

In the Elder Evil fluff it states that the baatorans were either killed, exiled or forced into slavery. Maybe as a campaign, the demons release the baatorans and all hell breaks loose on... Hell.

Though, I don't think anyone is stupid enough to take on Asmodeus on his home turf.

afroakuma
2009-09-01, 03:08 PM
Eh... no. Obyriths are the direct ancestors of ta'anari.

IIRC, tanar'ri are actuallly the "natural" denizens of the Abyss when presented with mortal souls, and would therefore be counterparts to baatorians. Baatezu are fallen celestials and are not natural in Baator. Obyriths are incarnations of destructive chaos.

For the record, both Zargon and the name "Zargon" suck. Sometime later today I might leak out a bit of my own work on the ancient baatorians. Suffice it to say that Zargon, to put it mildly, was not in charge.

Also: being enslaved or dying out? Choose a more on-topic source for your lore. Better theories involve them ascending into pure malevolence or being sealed away after a massive battle with Asmodeus and his legions.

arguskos
2009-09-01, 03:10 PM
IIRC, tanar'ri are actuallly the "natural" denizens of the Abyss when presented with mortal souls, and would therefore be counterparts to baatorians. Baatezu are fallen celestials and are not natural in Baator. Obyriths are incarnations of destructive chaos.

For the record, both Zargon and the name "Zargon" suck. Sometime later today I might leak out a bit of my own work on the ancient baatorians. Suffice it to say that Zargon, to put it mildly, was not in charge.
Eh, it was indicated that the tanar'ri evolved from the obyriths. Misha, the Wolf Spider (the obyrith champion) was said to evolve into a tanar'ri as the war against the Wind Dukes continued, for example. It's pretty heavily indicated.

Also, you've done some work on the baatorians? Dude! You're holding out on me! You know I love that stuff! :smallwink:

kamikasei
2009-09-01, 03:15 PM
I would imagine their obscurity would be what makes them scarier to the Devils, at least.

Well, what I mean is that WotC may have deliberately left them as an unknown so that DMs could make them as scary as needed, or just let players' imaginations do the work for them. But in universe, yes, I'm sure you're correct.


unkillable by Asmodeus

:smalleek:


The obyriths seemed to have more chaotic powers, but less evil powers (word of chaos, instead of blasphemy, and so on) suggesting they were Chaotic first, Evil second.


IIRC, tanar'ri are actuallly the "natural" denizens of the Abyss when presented with mortal souls, and would therefore be counterparts to baatorians.

I think the way it went was that the obyriths were the evil side of Chaos, back when the fundamental division in the multiverse was between Law and Chaos. Tanar'ri are properly Chaotic Evil, in that they're the result of mortal souls with all their Good and Evil nonsense ending up on the Chaotic (evil) planes. Essentially, the obyriths are more fundamental while the tanar'ri are more human - very loosely speaking.

hamishspence
2009-09-01, 03:23 PM
Where does it say Miska started out as an obyrith?

Dragon 357: Demogorgon: Prince of Demons, by James Jacobs:

As mortal life appeared and their souls came to the Abyss, the Queen of Chaos was among the first to cultivate and nurture this new brand of evil. For as they grew, they transformed into a new breed of demon- the tanar'ri.

The first of this new breed of demons was a twisted, deformed abortion of evil with boneless arms, twin simian heads, reptilian legs, and a twisted tail- a snapping, howling and ultimately uncontrollable monster formed from the primal fears of mortal souls. The Queen of Chaos tossed this creature aside, and those that came after were less broken. Succubi formed from mortal lust. Glabrezu from mortal envy. Alkiliths from mortal sloth. And more, and more. And as the tanar'ri grew, the obyriths called upon their greatest fleshwarpers, the sibriexes, to adjust and transform them more. Before long, the tanar'ri had grown to rival the obyriths in variety and speciality.

The most powerful of these was Miska the Wolf Spider, and when he matured to a demon lord to rival any of the obyrith lords of old, the Queen of Chaos crowned him the new Prince of Demons and marched on the outer multiverse.

afroakuma
2009-09-01, 03:34 PM
Also, you've done some work on the baatorians? Dude! You're holding out on me! You know I love that stuff! :smallwink:

I'm holding out on everybody, at the moment. But yes, rather a lot. Including their original leader...


I think the way it went was that the obyriths were the evil side of Chaos, back when the fundamental division in the multiverse was between Law and Chaos. Tanar'ri are properly Chaotic Evil, in that they're the result of mortal souls with all their Good and Evil nonsense ending up on the Chaotic (evil) planes. Essentially, the obyriths are more fundamental while the tanar'ri are more human - very loosely speaking.

Yeah, that sounds about right. After all, the obyriths fought against the Wind Dukes, etc. etc.

sonofzeal
2009-09-01, 04:36 PM
Come on afroakuma, we're all dying to know....

afroakuma
2009-09-01, 04:43 PM
Come on afroakuma, we're all dying to know....

Spilling the beans isn't very "me." However, I think it's safe to release the name of the Baatorians' original leader:

Baat, of course. What did you think it was named for?

Tiki Snakes
2009-09-01, 04:59 PM
Spilling the beans isn't very "me." However, I think it's safe to release the name of the Baatorians' original leader:

Baat, of course. What did you think it was named for?

He was of course exiled from his realm, and left in a hurry... >_>
http://monitosefervescentes.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/bat_out_of_hell.jpg
He was gone when the morning came.

afroakuma
2009-09-01, 05:42 PM
Well played. :smallamused:

AslanCross
2009-09-01, 05:43 PM
Isn't there some fluff that the Baatorans are still alive somewhere in Hell, but just so deep that they cannot get out.

Is Asmodeus the last remaining Baatoran and then created the Devils to do his own bidding.... (I know what Mr Big is up to...).

Asmodeus was a being of law who was originally a servant of the gods of law meant to fight the chaos of the universe. He eventually began to take on characteristics of evil and resorted to evil methods to get his job done. He wanted Baator as his home turf and drew up the Pact Primeval to get the legal rights to it.

PonceAlyosha
2009-09-01, 07:03 PM
I would imagine their obscurity would be what makes them scarier to the Devils, at least.

I actually really like this idea. Unlike demons, which are simply ravenous chaos given form, the devils are beings with social contracts, devils by choice, even if the choice is an unfair one.

Baatorans, on the other hands, would be condensed elemental law and elemental evil. I don't even know how that would manifest, something along the lines of the Inhibitors from revelation space?

sonofzeal
2009-09-01, 07:06 PM
I'm of the opinion that "Zargon" from Elder Evils is probably just an average member of his race without the horn. I mean, he's only CR 16, and a racial Anathematic Secrecy ability would explain why the other gods didn't even know the plane was occupied.