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Myou
2009-09-01, 02:11 PM
I'm running Ravenloft, and I want the party's first enconter with Strahd to be memorable, so I want him to kill our pet paladin, Ashlyn the Lightbringer.

What I really want if for him to appear, win initiative, and then reliably kill her in a single round. How can I do this?


Ashlyn is currently level 6, with 72HP, 21AC (T10), F11/R7/W7.

Strahd I have give an extra level and some more hit dice, so he can cast sixth level spells and has more HP.


The rest of the party, if it matters, are a monk//sorcerer 7 (my player), a wizard//non-melee capable barbarain (me), and a Cleric/Radiant Servant of Pelor 7 (NPC).

woodenbandman
2009-09-01, 02:21 PM
Finger of Death? It's not that hard to do, really. Just have the paladin "fail" her save. Of course, it'd be better if he used teleport and she failed her will save to avoid being teleported, and then she was stuck in his castle and the party arrives just in time to see her get Coup de grace'd.

Elfin
2009-09-01, 02:22 PM
Finger of Death is a pretty reliable NPC killer, as mentioned above.

Myou
2009-09-01, 02:26 PM
Finger of Death? It's not that hard to do, really. Just have the paladin "fail" her save. Of course, it'd be better if he used teleport and she failed her will save to avoid being teleported, and then she was stuck in his castle and the party arrives just in time to see her get Coup de grace'd.

We roll in the open though.

The idea of him abducting her is interesting, but I really want it to be more a case of him attacking, killing her, then flying off, laughing. And again it requires her to fail a save or it's useless. ><

Hijax
2009-09-01, 02:28 PM
you dont have to tell them the DC.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-09-01, 02:29 PM
If she rolls a natural 20...

Make her helpless somehow, likely with an invisible helper tagging along (preferably a small one, as well) and then Coup de Grace. Worked wonders with a mummy BBEG, although Paladin was fearless.

Myou
2009-09-01, 02:31 PM
you dont have to tell them the DC.

Hmmm, that's a really good point. o.o

I'd really like something more stylish than just Finger of Death (it's above his level and I feel cheap cheating on saves), but I guess it would do.

Vortling
2009-09-01, 02:34 PM
Hmmm, that's a really good point. o.o

I'd really like something more stylish than just Finger of Death (it's above his level and I feel cheap cheating on saves), but I guess it would do.

It's not cheating if it's an npc. :smallbiggrin:

Ranos
2009-09-01, 02:36 PM
How about separating them somehow ? Could be done with a wall spell for example. They hear sounds of battle from inside, her screams of pain. When they finally get to her, they find her dead body on the floor with the BBEG standing next to it, a smirk on his face, before disappearing into the mist.

Of course, if they do manage to get through the barrier very quickly, she should probably be saved. Make sure to have some minions blocking the way, they'll be the real encounter.

Myou
2009-09-01, 02:41 PM
If she rolls a natural 20...

Make her helpless somehow, likely with an invisible helper tagging along (preferably a small one, as well) and then Coup de Grace. Worked wonders with a mummy BBEG, although Paladin was fearless.

A CdG wouldn't even kill her though. Strahd only uses his Slam attack.



It's not cheating if it's an npc. :smallbiggrin:

Well, that's the only reason I'm even going after her.


How about separating them somehow ? Could be done with a wall spell for example. They hear sounds of battle from inside, her screams of pain. When they finally get to her, they find her dead body on the floor with the BBEG standing next to it, a smirk on his face, before disappearing into the mist.
Of course, if they do manage to get through the barrier very quickly, she should be saved.

The aim though, is for him to kill her right in front of them, the PCs unable to do anything.

Ranos
2009-09-01, 02:46 PM
The aim though, is for him to kill her right in front of them, the PCs unable to do anything.
Huh. You seem to disagree with me there, but I feel there's less of an impact if there's absolutely no chance for the PCs to save her. I'm just talking about my PCs here, but they'd just be apathethic : "oh well, the DM decided she was gonna die, nothing we could have done, moving on." I much prefer leaving them a small chance of success, so that they can beat themselves over their failure later on.

Myou
2009-09-01, 02:49 PM
Huh. You seem to disagree with me there, but I feel there's less of an impact if there's absolutely no chance for the PCs to save her. I'm just talking about my PCs here, but they'd just be apathethic : "oh well, the DM decided she was gonna die, nothing we could have done, moving on." I much prefer leaving them a small chance of success, so that they can beat themselves over their failure later on.

My aim is to make them scared of Strahd, not mae them blame themselves for her death.

Mystic Muse
2009-09-01, 02:51 PM
My aim is to make them scared of Strahd, not mae them blame themselves for her death.

yes but if you take Ranos's idea you do both.

Boci
2009-09-01, 02:52 PM
Split ray maximized enervate for 8 negative energy levels, no save, just 2 touch attack? Luckily for the Pcs, Stradt only had one scroll with this spell on it.

Elfin
2009-09-01, 02:52 PM
Exactly. It's actually a pretty good idea.

lsfreak
2009-09-01, 02:53 PM
Split Ray Empowered enervation. One metamagic reducer will do the trick of getting it down to 6th level. Averages 7 negative levels. Split Ray Maximized is a guaranteed kill if you get two reducers.

Ninja's! They're everywhere! :shiftyeyes:

Myou
2009-09-01, 02:53 PM
yes but if you take Ranos's idea you do both.

I guess I could do that, yeah. But I'd need them to be able to see the fight.


Split ray maximized enervate for 8 negative energy levels, no save, just 2 touch attack? Luckily for the Pcs, Stradt only had one scroll with this spell on it.

I thought of a scroll. Except that then wouldn't they just be scared of his scrolls?

Hijax
2009-09-01, 02:56 PM
I guess I could do that, yeah. But I'd need them to be able to see the fight.



I thought of a scroll. Except that then wouldn't they just be scared of his scrolls?

what was his level again? you said he had 6ths, so at least 11.
wiz 3/sorc 1/UM 7.
use praticed spellcaster(wizard) to have UM advance that.
burn sorc slots to fire off the enervation.

Boci
2009-09-01, 02:58 PM
I guess I could do that, yeah. But I'd need them to be able to see the fight.



I thought of a scroll. Except that then wouldn't they just be scared of his scrolls?

As lsfreak pointed out, you can have him do it, but then why doesn't he use it on the PCs? I guess you could decide he only has one one these spells prepared but it begs the question why when its such a good choice. If he relies on sudden maximize he can only do it once per day, but if the PCs do not kill him on that day they would be killed next.

Maybe make it from a magical item that seems like he cast it? The PCs can fined the now empty magical item amoungst his treasure after they've defeated him.

Edit: Alternativly, give him the ability to use it. Once. No item needed. Maybe he can cast the spell as a spell like ability once per fortnight on the full moon, and he deemed the paladin to be the biggest threat.

Lysander
2009-09-01, 03:01 PM
Have him dominate someone in the party and make THEM kill the paladin.

Mystic Muse
2009-09-01, 03:06 PM
Have him dominate someone in the party and make THEM kill the paladin.

It'd be awful funny if the entire party were Paladins of freedom. It'd render this plan pointless.

Myou
2009-09-01, 03:10 PM
what was his level again? you said he had 6ths, so at least 11.
wiz 3/sorc 1/UM 7.
use praticed spellcaster(wizard) to have UM advance that.
burn sorc slots to fire off the enervation.

Well, he's build in the module as a wizard 10, I just advanced him a level and gave him a few bonus HD.


As lsfreak pointed out, you can have him do it, but then why doesn't he use it on the PCs? I guess you could decide he only has one one these spells prepared but it begs the question why when its such a good choice. If he relies on sudden maximize he can only do it once per day, but if the PCs do not kill him on that day they would be killed next.

Maybe make it from a magical item that seems like he cast it? The PCs can fined the now empty magical item amoungst his treasure after they've defeated him.

Edit: Alternativly, give him the ability to use it. Once. No item needed. Maybe he can cast the spell as a spell like ability once per fortnight on the full moon, and he deemed the paladin to be the biggest threat.

Mmm, that was another concern, that if I just ruled that he can cast a killer spell, that then the players would wonder why he only did it once.

I like your idea about an item that he uses up and is later found, it explains why only the paladin got hit with it. Especially if I have her use the Holy Symbol of Raveloft or the Sunsword.


Have him dominate someone in the party and make THEM kill the paladin.

Hmmm, interesting idea. If he had the dominated NPC that shows up later and another NPC attack together that might kill her. Not really the shock tactics I'm after, but perhaps that would be a good followup.



I'm considering now dropping hints to the players that Strahd has one very powerful attack that has a limit to it's use, it's probably going to have to be that or fudging the paladin's save.

Cieyrin
2009-09-01, 03:17 PM
I don't know about the rest of you but having played Living Greyhawk for the last couple years of the campaign's life made me fearful of box text. If the box text says you die, YOU DIE! o.o

Same deal here. It's like in-game cinematics where plot occurs and there is no save against plot.:smallbiggrin:

Myou
2009-09-01, 03:18 PM
I don't know about the rest of you but having played Living Greyhawk for the last couple years of the campaign's life made me fearful of box text. If the box text says you die, YOU DIE! o.o

Same deal here. It's like in-game cinematics where plot occurs and there is no save against plot.:smallbiggrin:

I don't want my players feeling railroaded though. xD

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-01, 03:19 PM
Hmmm, that's a really good point. o.o

I'd really like something more stylish than just Finger of Death (it's above his level and I feel cheap cheating on saves), but I guess it would do.

Then have him use a scroll of Finger of Death, and say the spell is on his list.

Myou
2009-09-01, 03:39 PM
Then have him use a scroll of Finger of Death, and say the spell is on his list.

Like I say, that works, but it's really lame when the villain is only a threat if he has the right scroll.




Here's what I'm looking at at the moment;

The party enter a cave (Varikov the Trapper's lair, lackey of Strahd), with Ashlyn at the back (the NPCs are always at the back) and then Strahd appears, immediately casting a sudden-quickened Wall of Force to seperate the party, then Dimensional Anchor on me, the caster. Add some summons to back up Varikov, and the party has it's hands full.

He then engages Ashlyn, who is too proud/angry to even try to flee, and takes his time killing her - he's scryed on us and knows that the other casters don't have spells like Dimension Door, so unless one of us dispels the anchor on me, we can't get out to save her.

Once he drops her to negative HP he holds her up by the hair and laughs at the PCs through the wall, thanking them for taking out the witches that threatened him (subquest) and telling them that it was a mistake for them to think they could challenge him. He then Disintegrates Ashlyn, her ashes scattering in the wind. Cue pun on her name, vampire exit stage left.

I could also have him kill her and raise her as a vampire though, I'm torn between the two ideas.

Lysander
2009-09-01, 04:06 PM
What if he forces her to make a self sacrifice? For example, the party is on a mission to save a child or some other obviously good thing. Strahd is holding them prisoner for use in a magical experiment. The kid is behind magical traps and will die if approached.

The paladin calls him a monster and Strahd, remembering his own proud righteousness in his youth, cruelly offers her a deal. A single combat duel between her and him. No assistance from allies. If she wins not only will she save the kid, Strahd is dead. If Strahd wins, well, the paladin dies but he vows to let the kid go. She'd be honor bound to accept. If she points out that in dying she would give up the opportunity to help others, he promises to commit an act of good worth her life.

Now your players have two options:

A) Don't interfere in the duel - This pretty much means she's dead, since Strahd will use save or die spells every round. However Strahd is true to his word and lets the child go. Not only that, he leaves a gift for each player - a useful magical item. Gifting them to a group of heroes is his "act of good." By taking it your players feel guilty and complicit in her death and seek revenge.

B) Interfere - This might save her life, but definitely means the child is dead. She curses the group for disobeying her request and sets off on her own. Strahd is still evil and hated by the players for costing them a friend and killing the child.

Cieyrin
2009-09-01, 04:06 PM
I could also have him kill her and raise her as a vampire though, I'm torn between the two ideas.

I'm all for vampiring her and having her go Blackguard. That'd be an all around slap in the face to give the PCs more reason to go after Strahd.

Doc Roc
2009-09-01, 04:06 PM
Power word: Kill from a scroll.

Splat. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Power_Word_Kill_%28Spell%29)

Winning init is easy-peasy, I just need to know the highest init mod in your party.

Boci
2009-09-01, 04:11 PM
I'm all for vampiring her and having her go Blackguard. That'd be an all around slap in the face to give the PCs more reason to go after Strahd.

Or a paladin of slaughter/tyranny.


What if he forces her to make a self sacrifice? For example, the party is on a mission to save a child or some other obviously good thing. Strahd is holding them prisoner for use in a magical experiment. The kid is behind magical traps and will die if approached.

The paladin calls him a monster and Strahd, remembering his own proud righteousness in his youth, cruelly offers her a deal. A single combat duel between her and him. No assistance from allies. If she wins not only will she save the kid, Strahd is dead. If Strahd wins, well, the paladin dies but he vows to let the kid go. She'd be honor bound to accept. If she points out that in dying she would give up the opportunity to help others, he promises to commit an act of good worth her life.

Now your players have two options:

A) Don't interfere in the duel - This pretty much means she's dead, since Strahd will use save or die spells every round. However Strahd is true to his word and lets the child go. Not only that, he leaves a gift for each player - a useful magical item. Gifting them to a group of heroes is his "act of good." By taking it your players feel guilty and complicit in her death and seek revenge.

B) Interfere - This might save her life, but definitely means the child is dead. She curses the group for disobeying her request and sets off on her own. Strahd is still evil and hated by the players for costing them a friend and killing the child.

That is a really good idea. Well done.

Totally Guy
2009-09-01, 04:15 PM
Have the room flamable or underwater somehow. The paladin decides to use the terrain to his advantage and sets the room on fire or manages to flood it somehow.

Once the fire or water starts coming he suggests they all run.

Along the journey there is an open solid portcullis sttyle door and the paladin manages to be positioned at the back of the party looking out for the creature. Once the party are past the door the paladin activates it from his own side, there being no control lever on the party's side he's now trapped.

Then the room floods. Or he surges back towards the creature through flames.

Bonus points if the sound proof door has a small glass panel in it through which he can deliver one final message to his friends by writing on his hand.

Myou
2009-09-01, 04:24 PM
What if he forces her to make a self sacrifice? For example, the party is on a mission to save a child or some other obviously good thing. Strahd is holding them prisoner for use in a magical experiment. The kid is behind magical traps and will die if approached.

The paladin calls him a monster and Strahd, remembering his own proud righteousness in his youth, cruelly offers her a deal. A single combat duel between her and him. No assistance from allies. If she wins not only will she save the kid, Strahd is dead. If Strahd wins, well, the paladin dies but he vows to let the kid go. She'd be honor bound to accept. If she points out that in dying she would give up the opportunity to help others, he promises to commit an act of good worth her life.

Now your players have two options:

A) Don't interfere in the duel - This pretty much means she's dead, since Strahd will use save or die spells every round. However Strahd is true to his word and lets the child go. Not only that, he leaves a gift for each player - a useful magical item. Gifting them to a group of heroes is his "act of good." By taking it your players feel guilty and complicit in her death and seek revenge.

B) Interfere - This might save her life, but definitely means the child is dead. She curses the group for disobeying her request and sets off on her own. Strahd is still evil and hated by the players for costing them a friend and killing the child.

Ohhh, that is good!

I'm torn between this and my wall/cave thing. Is there some way to combine the two?

Perhaps the wall of force is what stops us saving the kid, and he offers to dispel it if we beat him or something? I don't know, I'm tired and rambling. xD
I'll think about it more tomorrow.


I'm all for vampiring her and having her go Blackguard. That'd be an all around slap in the face to give the PCs more reason to go after Strahd.

Maybe have her return, saying all is well and that she somehow survived. Then have her turn on us while we sleep. Bye bye NPC no. 2.



Have the room flamable or underwater somehow. The paladin decides to use the terrain to his advantage and sets the room on fire or manages to flood it somehow.

Once the fire or water starts coming he suggests they all run.

Along the journey there is an open solid portcullis sttyle door and the paladin manages to be positioned at the back of the party looking out for the creature. Once the party are past the door the paladin activates it from his own side, there being no control lever on the party's side he's now trapped.

Then the room floods. Or he surges back towards the creature through flames.

Bonus points if the sound proof door has a small glass panel in it through which he can deliver one final message to his friends by writing on his hand.

I don;t actually follow, why would the paladin trap herself in a room filling up with water? :smallconfused:

ericgrau
2009-09-01, 04:42 PM
Cinematic deaths sound too contrived to me. I'd give a reason for the baddy to focus specifically on the paladin. Then
a) He fights the PCs to get to the paladin. He is strong enough to kill the paladin but a TPK is too risky to attempt, so he flees after he gets what he wants.
b) He assassinates the paladin, catches the pally alone, or otherwise finds a sneaky way to do it which the party finds out about later.

IMO in either case fudge nothing and make it possible for the PCs to interfere, but unlikely or highly difficult. I don't like railroading for the sake of a movie plot. That's just gathering your players for story time, not rpg. Plus with RP the players might figure out clues, track the baddy, or otherwise advance the plot during or soon after the dirty deed. Which means there might be less need for you to advance the plot later, and less temptation to railroad.

Saph
2009-09-01, 04:51 PM
Yeah, I have to say, doing cutscene-style events where you specifically try to make it impossible for the PCs to influence events isn't usually the best way to DM.

Why do you feel it necessary to kill the pally anyway? If your goal is to make Strahd appear scary, you're going to fail. Railroading villains who kill NPCs and then vanish for no good reason aren't scary, they're just annoying. I've played in games like this, and it's rather frustrating. You feel as though you're watching a non-interactive cutscene in a CRPG. "Okay, I'm going to get a drink. Can one of you guys give me a call when we're allowed to take actions again?"

woodenbandman
2009-09-01, 04:52 PM
I like the idea of killing her in her sleep, and leaving behind a note from strahd. I still say that you should kidnap her. Kidnap her and leave behind a Summon Monster 6 (Or even something planar bound). That'll show the PCs that strahd is powerful and at the same time kill the paladin.

Boci
2009-09-01, 04:58 PM
Yeah, I have to say, doing cutscene-style events where you specifically try to make it impossible for the PCs to influence events isn't usually the best way to DM.

Why do you feel it necessary to kill the pally anyway? If your goal is to make Strahd appear scary, you're going to fail. Railroading villains who kill NPCs and then vanish for no good reason aren't scary, they're just annoying. I've played in games like this, and it's rather frustrating. You feel as though you're watching a non-interactive cutscene in a CRPG. "Okay, I'm going to get a drink. Can one of you guys give me a call when we're allowed to take actions again?"

But the whole point is that the OP wants a legal way for this to happen that does not result in him fidging the dice. Besides, would you really loose interest in the game if Stradt one hit killed the Paladin. Especially given that you didn't know her fate was sealed?

The dual desribed ofcourse does have this problem, but many other methods do not.

Saph
2009-09-01, 05:07 PM
But the whole point is that the OP wants a legal way for this to happen that does not result in him fidging the dice. Besides, would you really loose interest in the game if Stradt one hit killed the Paladin. Especially given that you didn't know her fate was sealed?

But I would know, simply from the fact that it was the NPC that got unfairly whacked rather than one of the party members. The DM is trying to say "Look how scary this guy is," but then the fact that he's killing an NPC and being careful to make sure the PCs are safe kind of undercuts this.

I've played too many computer games where NPCs are put in to accompany you solely so that the designated villain can kill them at the appropriate time. It really makes it hard to care about them.

Boci
2009-09-01, 05:12 PM
But I would know, simply from the fact that it was the NPC that got unfairly whacked rather than one of the party members. The DM is trying to say "Look how scary this guy is," but then the fact that he's killing an NPC and being careful to make sure the PCs are safe kind of undercuts this.

I've played too many computer games where NPCs are put in to accompany you solely so that the designated villain can kill them at the appropriate time. It really makes it hard to care about them.

Not neccissarily. I sometimes kill of NPCs to give player's their breathing space. And if the paladin was carrying the sunsword or the holy symbol of raven loft, then why shouldn't Stradt use his ultimate attack against him. Maybe they had a history and he swore to kill her. As long as the DM can honestly say he is rping the BBEG and not himself, its fine if he engerneers things a little.

Saph
2009-09-01, 05:17 PM
As long as the DM can honestly say he is rping the BBEG and not himself, its fine if he engerneers things a little.

Frankly, if you've gotten to the point where you're actively planning to make sure the PCs can't do anything to decide the outcome, I'd say it's a good sign that you've gone too far. Is it really such a terrible thing to let success or failure depend on the PCs' actions?

lsfreak
2009-09-01, 05:23 PM
Dominate the paladin, paladin attacks PC's (if the BBEG can cast 6th level spells, he can get the save DC high enough that the paladin can't reasonably save). This puts them in a situation where they can do something (kill the paladin, or run). If the BBEG is a sadist, it fits perfectly: what better way to kill a paladin by forcing her friends to kill her, *especially* if he can pin the "murder" on the PC's and get the church involved? And if the paladin is at all the crusader type, she'll have enough of a name for herself that the BBEG knows that this is about the worst situation he could put everyone in from a psychological standpoint. The PC's might not even know the paladin is dominated, now feeling betrayed, and if they do know they'll hate the BBEG all the more.

Boci
2009-09-01, 05:26 PM
Frankly, if you've gotten to the point where you're actively planning to make sure the PCs can't do anything to decide the outcome, I'd say it's a good sign that you've gone too far. Is it really such a terrible thing to let success or failure depend on the PCs' actions?

It is really such a terible thing to allow the DM to decide the outcome of an event every so often, no matter what the PCs do (within reason)?

woodenbandman
2009-09-01, 05:27 PM
Well Saph if you think it's a bad idea to auto-kill the paladin, what do you suggest he do to make the PCs fear Strahd? I suggested planar bound allies and summons attacking them while he fights the paladin.

Elfin
2009-09-01, 05:33 PM
I agree with Saph; it's definitely not a good idea to have a non-interactive cutscene (the duel, for example), or to pre-plan a death- no matter what, the PCs' choices should be able to have an impact on the story (and one that's beyond where or how the paladin dies).

Saph
2009-09-01, 05:54 PM
It is really such a terible thing to allow the DM to decide the outcome of an event every so often, no matter what the PCs do (within reason)?

Generally? Yes. I'd find it very frustrating, and it wouldn't take many repetitions for me to quit the game.

The whole reason I play tabletop games is so that I can get to do things. For me to do things, my actions have to matter. If my actions don't matter, I'm not interested.


Well Saph if you think it's a bad idea to auto-kill the paladin, what do you suggest he do to make the PCs fear Strahd? I suggested planar bound allies and summons attacking them while he fights the paladin.

Making players fear a BBEG is more about presentation than about stats or scripting. It's not what they do, it's how they do it.

First step: To be scary, a BBEG has to come across as an independent creature. He does what he does for his own reasons. It does not work if the BBEG is just advancing the DM's plot - and this is harder to hide than you might think. The players have to see the BBEG as independent of the DM.

Second step: The players have to feel that they and the things that matter to them are in real danger from the BBEG, and that he will hurt them if they take the wrong actions. This is why the "I'll have him kill an NPC" approach is a doubly bad idea - not only does it make it obvious that you don't want to kill the PCs themselves, but it also sends the message that the actions of the PCs don't matter.

If I wanted to make Strahd as scary as possible, I probably wouldn't have him display his abilities at all. Displays tend to be a sign of weakness rather than strength. An enemy who's obviously very powerful but whose abilities are completely unknown is much scarier.

Draco Ignifer
2009-09-01, 06:06 PM
I have a suggestion as to how to overcome the "why doesn't he use this awesome spell against the party?" problem, if you're still considering that idea. He WILL use the awesome spell against the party if they oppose him, at least without some way to counter it. Before they intend to fight him? They need to get the MacGuffin of Plot Armor that makes that spell not work. Something full of positive energy, for example, which will conveniently "weaken" him down to the level where you intend him to be when they actually DO fight.

KillianHawkeye
2009-09-01, 06:56 PM
How about catching the paladin when she's over 40 ft. from the party (or surrounded by at least half a dozen other living creatures) and using circle of death? Pros: As long as the PCs will reach level 9 before their next encounter with Strahd, they'll be immune to future uses of the spell. Or can be countered by protection from death effects now that the PCs know he has it. Cons: Targets the Paladin's strongest save.

Alternatively, flesh to stone and baleful polymorph are single target, but also target Fort.

Thrawn183
2009-09-01, 08:42 PM
You said that NPC's usually follow from the rear? Alright, have the party make many, many checks to hear something following them. As they pass through any kind of a bottleneck, strahd appears from behind. Presumably he's using things like invisibility to get a surprise round. Just cast wall of force between the paladin and the rest of the party and have him proceed to kill the paladin while they watch.

If they have a way of getting past the wall of force, good for them, Strahd retreats and tries to think of a different plan.

If not? Well, if Strahd is actually any kind of a threat, then he better be able to take the paladin on single handedly. Actually, it would be hilarious if he used some buff spells to be able to beat her at grappling and literally blood drained her to death.

Again, if the PC's can figure out a way around the wall of force, great. That way you know you aren't actually rail roading them.

Set
2009-09-02, 04:53 AM
I like the duel thing most of all.

If Strahd has some sneaky minion able to swap out a characters gear with invisible sleight of hand, he could replace her waterskin with one filled with 64 lbs of water affected by Shrink Item. A day later, he encounters the party, the Paladin has consumed the water, and he speaks the word to dispel the effect, causing 8 gallons of water to come bursting out of her body, drowning her in the process. Would this work normally? Probably not, since the water probably would be altered as it was absorbed into the body into various compounds that are not water, such as plasma and cytoplasm, but this is Ravenloft, so spells cast by Dark Lords to do nasty, nasty things get a pass from the Demiplane...

Bonus points if he uses Prestidigitation to make the water red, so that she appears to be drowning in a geyser of blood pouring out of her mouth... Extra bonus points if the water is animated somehow, and willfully keeps trying to drown her.

Toss her a Scarab of Death and Command her to 'catch.'

Shoot her with an Arrow of Slaying (use a javelin or dagger shaped one, or even a throwing axe of slaying).

Baleful Polymorph variant that turns her into a swarm of vermin, instead of a single animal.

Any spell effect that you want to have effective, you can say that he had boosted via some form of circle magic or preparations or uber-rare one-shot power component that gave him a +X to the DC of the spell he prepared via that process.

Perhaps he could even have a Talisman of Ill Luck that allows him for force a foe to roll twice on a d20 roll and pick the worst roll, usable once / day. Have the Talisman backfire on him later, causing *him* to reroll a successful attack and miss.

Boci
2009-09-02, 05:12 AM
Generally? Yes. I'd find it very frustrating, and it wouldn't take many repetitions for me to quit the game.

The whole reason I play tabletop games is so that I can get to do things. For me to do things, my actions have to matter. If my actions don't matter, I'm not interested.

But the whole point is you do not know. When Stradt kills the paladin,

Players: "Wait, she just died, there was no way we could have saved her?"
DM: "Sure there was. It was enervate, so if you'd cast deathward on her or counterspelled it, she would still be alive,"
Players: "And why did Stradt kill her and not us?"
DM: "He is greatful for your help in killing the witches and does not want you dead yet. The paladin however had crossed him before, ruining his attempt to breed a new type of infection carrying zombie and he weanted revenge"

If you had never seen this thread, why would this bother you?

Ranos
2009-09-02, 09:37 AM
But the whole point is you do not know. When Stradt kills the paladin,

Players: "Wait, she just died, there was no way we could have saved her?"
DM: "Sure there was. It was enervate, so if you'd cast deathward on her or counterspelled it, she would still be alive,"
Players: "And why did Stradt kill her and not us?"
DM: "He is greatful for your help in killing the witches and does not want you dead yet. The paladin however had crossed him before, ruining his attempt to breed a new type of infection carrying zombie and he weanted revenge"

If you had never seen this thread, why would this bother you?

I have to agree with Saph here, that's way too obvious. You could get away with that if there had been clues that Strahd had a powerful death attack before, foreshadowing. As it is, no one will say anything to your face, but anyone that's not a complete beginner to rpgs will know what you did there.

Glass Mouse
2009-09-02, 10:00 AM
I have to agree with Saph here, that's way too obvious. You could get away with that if there had been clues that Strahd had a powerful death attack before, foreshadowing. As it is, no one will say anything to your face, but anyone that's not a complete beginner to rpgs will know what you did there.

This.

Nothing wrong with cinematics (at least not if you're a good DM, and your players generally trust you), but BS'ing your way through railroad-explaining will NOT help your case. Instead, admit "yeah, she was supposed to die, but I kept it within the rules, and if you had thought up something extraordinarily clever (!), she would have lived. And don't worry. If you get too annoying, he WILL go for you next time." Honesty is always the best solution.

Ahem. Personally I like the idea of the pally dying because of bad luck or lack of thought (aka cleverness on the BBEG's side), like the "catch the Scarab of Death" idea. This gets you past the problem of non-agreeing dice, and may even make your players more nervous than a display of sheer force. You should, however, leave your players with the opportunity to stop her (and if they do, notch up the potential-nastiness-factor, so they can be ekstra afraid :smallamused:). You can always kill her off later.

Myou
2009-09-02, 11:27 AM
I think Saph is right.

So, I think that what I'm going to have to do is have Strahd engage the whole party, but target Ashlyn specifically because she carries the Holy Symbol of Ravenloft or Sunsword (it doen't matter which).

He uses wall of force to split the party if he can, but not dimensional anchor, and he aims all his attacks at Ashlyn, probably using wraithstrike combined with his slam attack to kill her with negative levels.

Since Strahd will be grateful to us for killing the witches that explains why he doen't just kill us all. Instead he'll fight the lot of us, kill Ashlyn, the only one he sees as a real threat (because of the artifacts), then thank us for our help, invite us to dinner and offer us a job.

When we turn him down (there's no way the monk//sorcerer would accept) he tells us that we are free to go (forgiving any rudeness), or that we're welcome to have fun exploring the castle if we wish. Then he leaves with Ashlyn's corpse, and turns her into a vampire paladin of slaughter/tyrrany. And he takes the artifacts with him.


How's that?

Teln
2009-09-02, 12:18 PM
Might be a good idea to come up with a contingency plan in case the PCs manage to save her.

Not likely, but like my old man says, it's better to have something and not need it than to need it and not have it.

Cieyrin
2009-09-02, 12:29 PM
I still say have her go blackguard, as they have built in mechanics to convert paladin levels and/or get extra-benefits for being ex-paladin that Paladin of Slaughter doesn't have. It's more mechanically gratifying then the ex-paladin levels he has sitting around that are essentially warrior levels at that point. At least you get something for them this way.

Having Strahd show off his awesomeness through an appropriate Xanatos Gambit (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit) would definitely work in your favor in making him awe inspiring like you're hoping for, and a number of Set's suggestions are definitely a step in the right direction. Your current plan of action certainly works decently as well, as it seems fair, which is what we're going for here.

Myou
2009-09-02, 12:35 PM
Might be a good idea to come up with a contingency plan in case the PCs manage to save her.

Not likely, but like my old man says, it's better to have something and not need it than to need it and not have it.

Actually, if they save her then I'll let her live. I don't want it to seem like she was doomed no matter what.

Of course Strahd won't give up unless they reduce him to 0HP, forcing him to flee. So I doubt that she'll be able to survive.


I still say have her go blackguard, as they have built in mechanics to convert paladin levels and/or get extra-benefits for being ex-paladin that Paladin of Slaughter doesn't have. It's more mechanically gratifying then the ex-paladin levels he has sitting around that are essentially warrior levels at that point. At least you get something for them this way.

Having Strahd show off his awesomeness through an appropriate Xanatos Gambit (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit) would definitely work in your favor in making him awe inspiring like you're hoping for, and a number of Set's suggestions are definitely a step in the right direction. Your current plan of action certainly works decently as well, as it seems fair, which is what we're going for here.

Well, I was going to let her swap paladin levels for tyranny/slaughter levels anyway. Is blackguard still better?

I think that I may use some ort of gambit against the NPC cleric, yeah, to show his intelligence.

Cieyrin
2009-09-02, 02:02 PM
Well, I was going to let her swap paladin levels for tyranny/slaughter levels anyway. Is blackguard still better?

Well, the blackguard will get more smites, sneak attack and poison use, plus the companion's power is dependent on character level, instead of class level. Depending on how powerful the paly was pre-vamping, she could also have a second companion, as well. The blackguard's aura is far more potent then slaughter's, as well, as who cares about -1 AC? -2 to saves is far more effective.

Blackguard spellcasting is piss poor in comparison, though, so the alternate paladins are better in that regard. So, it kinda comes down to if you want the new vamp paly to be kick-ass in melee or to be able to actually cast spells at all.

Myou
2009-09-02, 02:21 PM
Well, the blackguard will get more smites, sneak attack and poison use, plus the companion's power is dependent on character level, instead of class level. Depending on how powerful the paly was pre-vamping, she could also have a second companion, as well. The blackguard's aura is far more potent then slaughter's, as well, as who cares about -1 AC? -2 to saves is far more effective.

Blackguard spellcasting is piss poor in comparison, though, so the alternate paladins are better in that regard. So, it kinda comes down to if you want the new vamp paly to be kick-ass in melee or to be able to actually cast spells at all.

Oh, melee. So blackguard? :smallsmile:

Glass Mouse
2009-09-02, 02:59 PM
(cool plan)
... then thank us for our help, invite us to dinner and offer us a job.


That's my favorite part! Way to watch the characters explode! :smalltongue:

Myou
2009-09-02, 03:13 PM
That's my favorite part! Way to watch the characters explode! :smalltongue:

Thanks! :smallbiggrin: