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rezplz
2009-09-01, 07:39 PM
As a lover of shields, I do enjoy playing a good old sword n board fighter, even if it is horridly sub-optimized. My basic understanding is, at very low levels, sword n board has its place, but at higher levels the two-hander trumps the sword n board.

I was wondering, what level does the switch happen? About when is Sword and Board no longer considered useful? Are there any higher-level builds that can utilize a sword n board fighter-type effectively? And what things could be house-ruled to make sword n board more effective? Would banning the animated shield be enough?

quick_comment
2009-09-01, 07:48 PM
The switch is at level 6, when the two hander gets shock trooper. Before that the two hander is still better, but not overwhelmingly so.

Edit: Its worth noting that there isnt any reason at all to go sword and board past once you can afford an animated shield.

Eldariel
2009-09-01, 07:53 PM
It also depends on the specifics. One of the huge advantages two-handers have is reach. Other major benefits include 2-for-1 Power Attack and smaller bonuses like bonuses vs. Disarm et al.

If we're talking about a defensive build, two-hand weapons are SO much better simply because you've got the option of picking up a Guisarme, a Glaive or a similar reach weapon and just not be hit in most encounters, while stopping opponents from reaching the squishier party members. Also, Animated Shields soon make shields obsolete anyways.


Anyways, I'd say shields start off significantly worse for control- and charger-builds both from level 1, but it truly becomes a staggering difference once Animated Shields become cheap (about level 10). I mean, yeah, controllers really, really want a reach weapon from level 1 (I'm aware of Spinning Sword and Kusari-Gama, but they're both exotic weapons with virtually no damage potential, making them far less practical) and chargers at the very latest from level 6 onwards, but around level 10 there's truly no upside to using shields.

EDIT: Ninja-edited :o

Thrawn183
2009-09-01, 07:54 PM
You have to make the shield give a benefit to ALL defenses.

A character switching from a one handed weapon to a two handed weapon gets a bonus to damage that is pretty much universally applicable. He loses a bonus to AC that is pretty much only useful against people that deal HP damage. The shield really doesn't protect you from magic at all.

Animated shields are just adding insult to injury. Ok, more like injury to injury, but you get my point.

9mm
2009-09-01, 07:59 PM
You have to make the shield give a benefit to ALL defenses.

A character switching from a one handed weapon to a two handed weapon gets a bonus to damage that is pretty much universally applicable. He loses a bonus to AC that is pretty much only useful against people that deal HP damage. The shield really doesn't protect you from magic at all.

Animated shields are just adding insult to injury. Ok, more like injury to injury, but you get my point.

It comes down to this, does the shield bash + other weapon >= a two handed attack? and universily the answer is no, but it's a good technique at early levels due to easily buffing the shield-bash out put. It falls behind at later levels because the options for magically enhancing shields/armor stink.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-01, 08:01 PM
Around 6th level. Possibly 3rd, if the PC has maxed out Str.

High level Crusaders can use their Shields as a primary weapon, instead of using two-handed weapons. JaronK covered this in the Tiers thread on Gleemax before it was closed.

As for making it more effective, banning Animated Shields just makes people switch to Bucklers. Banning both means people never use Shields unless they are using two shields/are specifically focusing on using the shield as a weapon and a defense.

A house rule to consider is this:

Combat Expertise
Prerequisite: Int 13, proficient with Light Steel Shields
Benefit: When wearing a shield, you may take the Fighting Defensively action at no penalty to your offensive capablilities. Additionally, the bonus to AC from using that action increase to 2+your Int modifier. Additionally, you may take the Fighting Defensively action as part of the Attack action or Full Attack action, allowing you to take your full attack unhindered.
Normal: Using a shield does not negate the penalties imposed by the Fighting Defensively action. The bonus to AC from the Fighting Defensively action is only +2.

Improved Combat Expertise
Prerequisite: Combat Expertise
Benefit: While wearing a shield, you may take the Full Attack action and declare you are taking the Total Defense action simultatously. At any point during this round, you may take an Immediate action to intercept an opponent's attack with your shield, granting you a Deflection bonus to AC equal to 4+your Int modifier against that attack. This feat's benefits and requirements replace the Total Defense action, including the penalties associated with that action (allowing you to make attacks of opportunity when using the Total Defense action). You still cannot combine the Total Defense action with the Fighting Defensively action.
Normal: Total Defense is a standard action that grants a +4 dodge bonus to your AC for 1 round. Your AC improves at the start of this action. You can’t make attacks of opportunity while using total defense.

valadil
2009-09-01, 08:19 PM
You have to make the shield give a benefit to ALL defenses.


I like that fix. I'm not sure how it makes sense for will saves, but I can live with it I think. What we'd been doing in 3.5 is making a shield mastery feat that effectively doubles the AC bonus the shield gives you. Everyone with a shield took it, but I don't think anyone switched from two hander to sword and board just to get it.

Diamondeye
2009-09-01, 08:22 PM
Even just giving it the ability to add its bonus to reflex saves would be a huge improvement.

Thrawn183
2009-09-01, 08:24 PM
If you make shields apply to touch AC and saves, you might want to only apply the base shield and not any enhancements. +7 to all saves and touch AC is pretty rediculous. Or maybe the full AC to touch AC but only the base to saves?

Combine with getting rid of animated shields of course.

Faleldir
2009-09-01, 08:57 PM
Allow characters to add their STR to AC when using shields with proficiency. It makes about as much sense as STR to melee attacks.
Shield bonus to touch AC, naturally.
Shield bonus is doubled when FD and tripled when TATDA. With active Shield Defense, it starts to sound like a legitimate option.
Explain the "tower shield for cover" rule without facing: one adjacent square grants cover.

Cieyrin
2009-09-01, 09:14 PM
Around 6th level. Possibly 3rd, if the PC has maxed out Str.

High level Crusaders can use their Shields as a primary weapon, instead of using two-handed weapons. JaronK covered this in the Tiers thread on Gleemax before it was closed.

As for making it more effective, banning Animated Shields just makes people switch to Bucklers. Banning both means people never use Shields unless they are using two shields/are specifically focusing on using the shield as a weapon and a defense.

A house rule to consider is this:

Combat Expertise
Prerequisite: Int 13, proficient with Light Steel Shields
Benefit: When wearing a shield, you may take the Fighting Defensively action at no penalty to your offensive capablilities. Additionally, the bonus to AC from using that action increase to 2+your Int modifier. Additionally, you may take the Fighting Defensively action as part of the Attack action or Full Attack action, allowing you to take your full attack unhindered.
Normal: Using a shield does not negate the penalties imposed by the Fighting Defensively action. The bonus to AC from the Fighting Defensively action is only +2.

Improved Combat Expertise
Prerequisite: Combat Expertise
Benefit: While wearing a shield, you may take the Full Attack action and declare you are taking the Total Defense action simultatously. At any point during this round, you may take an Immediate action to intercept an opponent's attack with your shield, granting you a Deflection bonus to AC equal to 4+your Int modifier against that attack. This feat's benefits and requirements replace the Total Defense action, including the penalties associated with that action (allowing you to make attacks of opportunity when using the Total Defense action). You still cannot combine the Total Defense action with the Fighting Defensively action.
Normal: Total Defense is a standard action that grants a +4 dodge bonus to your AC for 1 round. Your AC improves at the start of this action. You can’t make attacks of opportunity while using total defense.

Those feats certainly make a sword and board desirable. I especially like your block mechanic that doesn't become an opposed roll every round, slowing down combat.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-01, 09:22 PM
Those feats certainly make a sword and board desirable. I especially like your block mechanic that doesn't become an opposed roll every round, slowing down combat.

Thank you. I've been trying to redesign fighter feats for a while now, and those two just happened to be mostly complete.

ericgrau
2009-09-01, 09:53 PM
The switchover comes when either the animated shield is affordable or players who don't know how to optimize AC can't keep up with the curve anymore. The proper solutions are to ban the animated shield and encourage good AC optimization with proper loot. All you need is a variety of cheap AC items, rather than 1 powerful one. Sources are: armor, shield, ring of protection, amulet of natural armor, dusty rose prism ioun stone. At high levels, switch armor to mithral and up dex. Unarmored characters can also use: bracers of armor, monk's belt and the ring of force shield (for casters/etc., but not monks). Ioun stones, barkskin, or MIC rules can help deal with amulet slot competition. Do check rules for upgrading magic items. It isn't hard to get a ~75% miss chance vs. physical attacks at both low levels and high.

Note that this is only a ~+4 away from a 95% miss chance. So I'd be careful about giving away more AC without any drawbacks just to fix bad optimization. I mean, you can only guess how bad they optimized and how much to give; it's better to just fix the root problem. The homebrew feats suggested above combined with decent optimization would easily make someone immune to almost all physical attacks except on a natural 20. And it'd still leave most of your wealth for offense.

Outside of core don't allow things that boost power attack. Like shock trooper, leap attack, UMD'ed wraith strike or other ways to either auto-hit to negate the AB penalty or give more damage without an additional AB penalty. This greatly favors two-handers. In core, power attack is greatly limited in effectiveness due to the AB penalty (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87339).

TheWerdna
2009-09-01, 11:28 PM
My GM houserules that if you ahve combat expertise with a sheild you get a bonus to AC equil to 1.5 the pentelty to your atack rolls, which helps somewhat

avr
2009-09-01, 11:57 PM
Artificers can do some interesting stuff with their armor enhancement infusions on shields. It's not usually a big deal, but it can help.

Draz74
2009-09-02, 12:42 AM
In core, power attack is greatly limited in effectiveness due to the AB penalty (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87339).

Meh, even in Core, it depends what kind of monsters (high AC or low AC) you're fighting. Giants? Power Attack is incredible. Dragons? You might rather have a shield.

But yeah, I'd say 50% of the legendary uber-ness of Power Attack actually comes from Shock Trooper, which I generally advise houserule-nerfing.

rezplz
2009-09-02, 12:50 AM
In our group, the leap attack stuff/shocktrooper cheese isn't really a problem. We generally stick to core. Hell, I have no idea what those even do D:

So I guess that if I accept that I'm not really doing damage, then a sword and board could be useful? Take full combat expertise, and maybe be a knight so I can force people to attack me. And then laugh when they can never hit me.

Having the shield bonus apply to touch AC also makes sense. Because that's basically what shields do, they stop things from touching you. D: Maybe they'd give some kind of static bonus to reflex saves. Like some kind of cover bonus?

ericgrau
2009-09-02, 01:24 AM
Enchant your weapon with a bunch of d6 bonus damage enchantments and get boots of speed for an extra haste attack. With an uncheesed power attack you're only losing ~2-4 + 1/2 str mod damage. It hurts more at low levels but at higher levels you'll be getting 40-50+ damage per hit easy and it's no big loss. I've had super simple core SAB builds before where people asked "How did you get that much damage??" It all adds up. So I wouldn't fall into the trap of going all tank. Strike a balance.

Combat expertise is nice b/c as you may have noticed it can give you the ~+4 for 95% physical attack avoidance I mentioned above (but it's not free, so it's not really broken). Again use your judgement: if you think your character is safe go ahead and skip CE so you can do more offense. Or skip it if your target is heavily armored and you need your AB.

If you use a tower shield you can give up the AC bonus get total cover against a certain direction whenever you want, like having a portable wall. You don't even need to roll the save (unless your enemy gets a better angle to avoid your "wall"). Cover also stops attacks of opportunity, which is great for battlefield mobility. But assuming you have cover but not total cover, that's a +2 cover bonus to the reflex save. I think there's a splatbook feat called shield ward or something that lets you apply your shield bonus to your touch AC.

rezplz
2009-09-02, 01:44 AM
Cool, cool. Um, however, you mind giving me a quick breakdown of how you get that much damage? Don't have to go into huge detail or anything.

Ah, shield ward. I had forgotten about that one, been a while since I read that book. I'll have to look into all the shield feats they have in there.

Draz74
2009-09-02, 02:07 AM
Ah, shield ward. I had forgotten about that one, been a while since I read that book. I'll have to look into all the shield feats they have in there.

PHB2 is really a wonderful resource for Sword & Board. Some of the shield feats kind of stink, but Shield Ward is pretty fantastic, and Agile Shield Fighter can make shield bashing much more feasible.

vrellum
2009-09-02, 02:11 AM
get shield ward from the PHBII. Great feat if you have a shield. Allows you to add your shield bonus to many types of defense or defensive rolls.

Myrmex
2009-09-02, 02:13 AM
I've been toying with a shield bash mechanic that works like stunning fist. It gives the sword & boarder some battlefield control.

Eldariel
2009-09-02, 02:17 AM
Shield Slam [CWar] and Shield Charge [CWar] already exist for just that outcome. The problem is that once you focus enough on your shield, it actually becomes optimal to just two-hand a shield as your only weapon, which is just silly. It could be possible, but it's just wrong that the game mechanics push you towards it -.-

rezplz
2009-09-02, 02:19 AM
Speaking of two-handing a shield, me and a friend were joking around about doing size category abuse to shield bash someone for 6d6 damage or something like that.

Yes, it was quite silly.

Eldariel
2009-09-02, 02:28 AM
Speaking of two-handing a shield, me and a friend were joking around about doing size category abuse to shield bash someone for 6d6 damage or something like that.

Yes, it was quite silly.

Get a Shield of Bashing, Greater Mighty Wallop at CL 16, profit. That actually gets you exactly 6d6 Shield. Too bad it's still pretty poor for the effort you put into it :smallfrown:

rezplz
2009-09-02, 02:29 AM
Get a Shield of Bashing, Greater Mighty Wallop at CL 16, profit. That actually gets you exactly 6d6 Shield. Too bad it's still pretty poor for the effort you put into it :smallfrown:

And then enlarge person after that? ;D

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-02, 07:13 AM
No, Giant Size.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-02, 09:40 AM
Meh, even in Core, it depends what kind of monsters (high AC or low AC) you're fighting. Giants? Power Attack is incredible. Dragons? You might rather have a shield.

But yeah, I'd say 50% of the legendary uber-ness of Power Attack actually comes from Shock Trooper, which I generally advise houserule-nerfing.

Why do people do this? It's like halving a spellcaster's casting stat. Fighters can't keep up with casters, even with Shock Trooper. All Shock Trooper does is allow them to be good at what they are supposed to be doing: Hurting things.

Person_Man
2009-09-02, 10:21 AM
High level Crusaders can use their Shields as a primary weapon, instead of using two-handed weapons. JaronK covered this in the Tiers thread on Gleemax before it was closed.


My work blocks gleemax and I can't find it in the cache. Does anyone have this info somewhere? I'm putting together a guide, and it's be helpful.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-02, 10:30 AM
My work blocks gleemax and I can't find it in the cache. Does anyone have this info somewhere? I'm putting together a guide, and it's be helpful.

I'll PM him and see if he can find the build.

Doc Roc
2009-09-02, 11:01 AM
Why do people do this? It's like halving a spellcaster's casting stat. Fighters can't keep up with casters, even with Shock Trooper. All Shock Trooper does is allow them to be good at what they are supposed to be doing: Hurting things.

And yeah, that's not even where power attack's oh-hell-yes quality comes from.

Kaiyanwang
2009-09-02, 11:21 AM
Why do people do this? It's like halving a spellcaster's casting stat. Fighters can't keep up with casters, even with Shock Trooper. All Shock Trooper does is allow them to be good at what they are supposed to be doing: Hurting things.

I agree. Shocktrooper is just fine as it is. Moreover, can be nicely combined with other feats because, if you imagine it, is like a "SMASH! AND NOW HIT ME!".

And then the enemy is surprised by an Elusive Target use or by 2 trip attempts for robilar + karmik.. and my "combos" are quite trivial I guess.

In my experience, TWF is not so bad. Simply, TWF should focus IMHO on an adequate choose of weapons, on tactic switch (shield, two weapon, throw) and a good use of combat reflexes, cheesed out. But all we know that the feat expenditure is HUGE, and the build is more difficult and more relying on equip.

Said this, I'd merge TWF and TWD ( and merge Dual Strike, Two Wepon Pounce, and Two Weapon rend or simila feats in groups of three, maybe working on prereqs.

Alternatively, say that if you filled TWF and TWD tiers, other "moves" are available (copypasted from feats like these) if you have others "basic" feats as prereqs like Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise and so on).

Example: If you have TWF and Combat relfexes, You gain Dual Strike (MH).

Person_Man
2009-09-02, 11:28 AM
I'll PM him and see if he can find the build.

Thanks.


Why do people do this? It's like halving a spellcaster's casting stat. Fighters can't keep up with casters, even with Shock Trooper. All Shock Trooper does is allow them to be good at what they are supposed to be doing: Hurting things.

Well, I can tell you that when most people play 3.5 "honestly" there appears to be a big power disparity between the Fighter 6 with Leap Attack, Combat Reflexes, Shock Trooper, and a reach weapon, compared to the fragile Wizard 6 with mediocre Con who uses blasting spells. And if the Fighter 6 has figured out a way to get Pounce (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358) somehow, the disparity appears even more ridiculous. It requires less game mastery to smack things then it does to use battlefield control intelligently. So I've seen many DMs who want to nerf Power Attack et al - just look at Pathfinder.

But I agree with you. The easiest way to fix imbalance is to just give the weaker players more advice and or splat books to play with.

Ponce
2009-09-02, 11:32 AM
Add half the character's BaB to their shield AC.

Hijax
2009-09-02, 11:42 AM
Thanks.



Well, I can tell you that when most people play 3.5 "honestly" there appears to be a big power disparity between the Fighter 6 with Leap Attack, Combat Reflexes, Shock Trooper, and a reach weapon, compared to the fragile Wizard 6 with mediocre Con who uses blasting spells. And if the Fighter 6 has figured out a way to get Pounce (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358) somehow, the disparity appears even more more ridiculous. It requires less game mastery to smack things then it does to use battlefield control intelligently. So I've seen many DMs who want to nerf Power Attack et al - just look at Pathfinder.

But I agree with you. The easiest way to fix imbalance is to just give the weaker players more advice and or splat books to play with.

If you play a blasting wizard, then its your own fault that you're suboptimal.

Swordguy
2009-09-02, 11:50 AM
If you play a blasting wizard, then its your own fault that you're suboptimal.

Bull.

A very, VERY tiny minority of players check out these or the Gleemax boards. Every bit of fluff text in the book and every bit of official "how to play a wizard" advice from WotC I can think of pushes players into playing a blaster. 20 years of previous gameplay experience have also pushed people into playing blasters, because under old rulesets, playing a blaster was clearly the "right" thing to be. Further, 4e pretty much forces you into playing a blaster. It's pretty clear that "blaster" is the way you're supposed to play the game - it's the way WotC playtested the game, it's the way they marketed the game, and people who play Batmen are playing a completely different game than what WotC produced.

Further, I object to the elitism inherent in your statement. I'd call it a troll, frankly.

Thus, in the "average" group, which HAS NOT optimized the bejezus out of their characters, and includes a blaster wizard, healbot cleric, skillmonkey, and tank-y fighter...the fighter going all Shock Trooper/Leap Attack/Pounce-esque and doing 3.567 billion damage per round is going the be unbalanced against both that group's expectations, and the way the game is colliquially intended to be played. In a game with Tippyverse Wizards, it's fine. But that's the exception, not the rule.

Spiryt
2009-09-02, 11:55 AM
If you play a blasting wizard, then its your own fault that you're suboptimal.

No.

You're a guy who want to arch lightnings between him and his enemies, who wants to create big balls of fire, and generally acts as solid special effects studio.

It's not your fault that it's working wobbly.

EDIT: Plus, what Swordguy said.

I wonder if wizards way to break universe are really only "accident", and they were supposed to blast mainly. :smallconfused:

Swordguy
2009-09-02, 12:34 PM
No.
I wonder if wizards way to break universe are really only "accident", and they were supposed to blast mainly. :smallconfused:

They were. We've been over this before, but it was several years ago, and the forum purge has probably eaten the thread by now. I'll sum up:


My uncle is Jon Pickens (http://www.pen-paper.net/rpgdb.php?op=showcreator&creatorid=6) - I've asked him directly. When CharOp was discussed, his response was "why would anyone NOT want to do lots of hitpoints of damage? What's the fun in winning an encounter with one spell?"

That's the mindset that 3.x was playtested under. As I've posted before, if you play the game the way it was intended to be played (ie, via the older playstyle), it's actually quite balanced and all classes are more or less effective. If you don't, then it's not. You're playing a different game than what was playtested. WotC played 2e with new mechanics. You people (3.x optimizers) are playing a completely new game with the d20 mechanic.

I'm not saying whether it's good or bad, just how it is.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-02, 12:36 PM
If you play a blasting wizard, then its your own fault that you're suboptimal.

Blasting Wizards are still more powerful than melee classes, you know? It's just the worst option for your spells/day.

An optimized Blaster is capable of ending encounters with four or six spells and a ton of metamagic/magic items. Considering the Focused Specialist and Sorcerer both get about 50 spells/day before Bonus Spells and magic items, he'll burn through an average of 25 spells/day before resting, assuming 4 encounters.

At the lower levels (7 and under) Blasting is the absolute worst thing a spellcaster should be doing; he should be leaving HP damage to the people who can do it at will. Past that point, he's still sub-optimal by comparison, but he's able to get through the day.



I wonder if wizards way to break universe are really only "accident", and they were supposed to blast mainly.

The "balancing point" of 3.5 assumes the only actions taken by Wizards are blasting spells like Fireball. They also assumed that the Druid would use Wild Shape for Transportation, the Animal Companion for scouting, and the spells for healing. Clerics were assumed to be spamming Cure spells and Turn attempts.

This is evident in the sample PCs and NPCs. The playtest Druid had Weapon Focus (Shortspear), a Raven for an animal companion, and nothing but Healing spells. The sample Wizard was an unmodified High Elf with Spell Focus (Evocation) and Improved Init. The spellbook was filled with blasting spells.

Coincidentally, they assumed the same for encounters. Dragons were tanks first, blasters second, and they never left the ground even when they fled.


WotC has no idea how to optimize. Some of their developers have an idea about it, but then you get people like Bruce Cordell, the man responsible for things like Complete Psionics, or Magic of Eberron, two of the worst books he's worked on. MoE is an especially egregious example: it gave us the Spear Pikard, Lesser Schemas, the Psionic Artificer, and so forth. Had he been intimately familiar with proper optimization methods, he would never have put those in that book. Schemas are plain broken, the PsiArti is considered better than the normal Arti, and the Pikards are clunky and very overpowered compared to other exotic weapons.

This is just Cordell, mind you. There's a handful of others, but he's the one who springs to mind most often.

Lord Denyuar
2009-09-02, 01:04 PM
I have seen a nice build with sword and board for around level 16, I mentioned to him to use the feats of GITP Gaming Section "Tools of the Trade", most things couldn't touch him unless NAT 20 (then again he was a dwarf fighter/dwarven defender with AC in 50+ at I think level 16)

FatR
2009-09-02, 01:18 PM
Outside of core don't allow things that boost power attack. Like shock trooper, leap attack, UMD'ed wraith strike or other ways to either auto-hit to negate the AB penalty or give more damage without an additional AB penalty. This greatly favors two-handers. In core, power attack is greatly limited in effectiveness due to the AB penalty (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87339).
In the core, melee classes, except maybe trip controllers, can just kill themselves after about level 6 at worst and level 9 at the very best, to save XP and money for real characters. Any "core only" discussion about them is meaningless.

Myrmex
2009-09-02, 01:27 PM
In the core, melee classes, except maybe trip controllers, can just kill themselves after about level 6, to save XP and money for real characters. Any "core only" discussion about them is meaningless.

I had a straight human fighter, a dwarven cleric, a human rogue, and a batman gray elf wizard in a pretty much core only game. Both the rogue & fighter could get up to 50 damage/round at level 9. The wizard was definitely useful, but wasn't nearly as campaign smashing as people say it is. If the cleric wanted to hit as hard as the fighter or rogue, he took too many rounds casting his spells, such that his average damage was about the same as theirs.

The wizard cast spells like ray of enfeeblement, tasha's hideous laughter, glitterdust, black tentacles, haste, slow and fly. The biggest problem, though, was that in order to get breadth of casting, he had to sacrifice a lot of depth. By mixing up what they would fight, and enemy tactics, the wizard could only do a trick once/day. Having a couple long encounters or 6 encounters/day without any hint as to which ones would be easy or hard also used up caster resources.

In the end, the wizard had to rely on the fighter & rogue to actually finish a fight. Without them, the wizard would have had 9 rounds or whatever to flee from the blinded enemy.

We had these results until level 11 or 12, when the campaign finally ended.

Draz74
2009-09-02, 01:33 PM
Why do people do this? It's like halving a spellcaster's casting stat. Fighters can't keep up with casters, even with Shock Trooper. All Shock Trooper does is allow them to be good at what they are supposed to be doing: Hurting things.

Because it makes them effective, yes, but effective one-trick ponies. Boring. I prefer melee characters who can be effective at hurting things without reducing combat to an all-or-nothing opening round, where they generally kill everything very quickly but are left with a mind-boggling low AC in return.

It's the same reason I hate Font of Inspiration for Factotums, essentially. Sure, there's no question that it's powerful, and even that the class needs the boost in some ways. But it makes for a boring character to play.

Rest assured, my Shock Trooper-nerfing DM style also includes plenty of nerfs for spells. :smalltongue:

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-02, 01:50 PM
Because it makes them effective, yes, but effective one-trick ponies. Boring. I prefer melee characters who can be effective at hurting things without reducing combat to an all-or-nothing opening round, where they generally kill everything very quickly but are left with a mind-boggling low AC in return.

It's the same reason I hate Font of Inspiration for Factotums, essentially. Sure, there's no question that it's powerful, and even that the class needs the boost in some ways. But it makes for a boring character to play.

Rest assured, my Shock Trooper-nerfing DM style also includes plenty of nerfs for spells. :smalltongue:

Tell me you at least use Tome of Battle or play a Duskblade or a PsiWar, because 90% of all other melee classes are one-trick ponies. That's all melee has ever been up until those classes were printed. If you aren't using those, then I can't accept your statement as anything less than Fridge Logic.

I mean, seriously, your actions in combat are: Attack, trip, disarm, sunder, bull rush, overrun, grapple, move. That's more or less all you can do. Overrunning is tactically inferior to a Bull Rush despite dealing damage, as you can be avoided and you move past the enemy even if you succeed (which defies the purpose of playing a tank). Sundering has been proven to be bad. Disarming is meh. Grappling is bad unless you can match their size category, same with Tripping (but that has the advantage of not tying you down to a single opponent while keeping many enemies in check).

Oh, and you have to hyper-specialize to be good at these things, so a single subtype can force you out of your zone (try Tripping an Incorporeal opponent, or even Bull Rushing one).

Melee classes prior to the XPH are one-trick ponies. Shock Trooper helps to make them efficient one trick ponies. Nerfing this lowers their efficiency, making melee harder to play.

Person_Man
2009-09-02, 02:02 PM
It's also worth mentioning that in 4E and most video games, they did a somewhat reasonable job of scaling To-Hit and damage per level for each role. Whereas in 3.X, they did a lousy job. I'd also add that balance was never a design goal for 1st, 2nd, or 3.X edition D&D. It's designed like a toybox filled with tons of different stuff. Some of the toys are shiny but useless, some seem boring but are really uber powerful, and most of them fall in the middle somewhere.

It's just surprising to people when Gimli is somehow more powerful then Gandalf. Gandalf is "supposed" to be doing the awesome blasting, whereas Gimli is "supposed" to be a tank who also kills things at a reasonable rate. When Gimli suddenly one-shots the Lord of the Nazgul, it freaks people out, even though the DM could have just given the Black Captain better buffs to balance things out.

Anywho, I've posted a basic guide to shields (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6848292) that people might find handy. I'll flesh it out over the next few days, and by next week it should be worthy of a bookmark.

9mm
2009-09-02, 02:27 PM
~stuff on melee vs. Batman~

Do people just like to forget that the whole purpose of the Batman Wizard is to let the Fighters/Rouges/Summoned deal the damage while forcing the Opfor into a situation where victory is impossible? It's a toolbox build designed to have at least a part of the solution to any encounter, while using divination to customize to encounter before hand. That's the builds game-breaking potential, to force the DM to throw his hands up because none of the antagonists can do anything.

Myrmex
2009-09-02, 02:39 PM
Do people just like to forget that the whole purpose of the Batman Wizard is to let the Fighters/Rouges/Summoned deal the damage while forcing the Opfor into a situation where victory is impossible? It's a toolbox build designed to have at least a part of the solution to any encounter, while using divination to customize to encounter before hand. That's the builds game-breaking potential, to force the DM to throw his hands up because none of the antagonists can do anything.

What other options are there in core, though? You can blast, and do more damage than melee a few times/day. It's not like there are nanobots or metamagic reducers to really get going super powerful in core.

And the "game-breaking " potential is simply the fact that it requires a slight adjustment of MM and NPC encounters than what comes straight from the books. It's not much more powerful than a half-giant with a spiked chain and the expansion power, in terms of having to adjust encounters. Saph's Horizon Tripper is about as competent as a Batman Wizard (barring abuse of Wish or Calling spells).

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-02, 02:50 PM
What other options are there in core, though? You can blast, and do more damage than melee a few times/day. It's not like there are nanobots or metamagic reducers to really get going super powerful in core.

And the "game-breaking " potential is simply the fact that it requires a slight adjustment of MM and NPC encounters than what comes straight from the books. It's not much more powerful than a half-giant with a spiked chain and the expansion power, in terms of having to adjust encounters. Saph's Horizon Tripper is about as competent as a Batman Wizard (barring abuse of Wish or Calling spells).

Most of the best BC spells are actually in Core. Outside of Core, you get spells like Spell Matrix, Arcane Spellsurge, Celerity, etc. Inside Core, you've got spells like Solid Fog, Cloudkill, etc.

And nothing pre-Epic/Infinite can deal with a Time Stop+BC/Buffs. Not even the Horizon Tripper. If Batman wins init (and he very well will, thanks to Nerveskitter, Foresight, Moment of Prescience, a Warning dagger, Improved Init, and Shapechange into a Dire Tortoise), the battle's all ready lost.

This is the reason Arcane casters are considered the game breakers, BTW. The Druid may have them beat in class features, the Artificer in spell access, but the Druid loses in spell effects (Divine BC isn't on the same level as Arcane BC), and the Artificer loses in preparation time (it takes him days to craft the items he needs, whereas the Wizard only needs 9 and a quarter hours to be prepared for anything the Artificer could throw at him).

tyckspoon
2009-09-02, 02:51 PM
Do people just like to forget that the whole purpose of the Batman Wizard is to let the Fighters/Rouges/Summoned deal the damage while forcing the Opfor into a situation where victory is impossible?

Pretty much. The original "be a team player by focusing on the stuff only you can do while everybody else does what they can do" concept got buried under the ensuing stream of challenges where a solo Wizard is forced to overcome a series of ever-more-improbably difficult and bizarre scenarios. Calling the kind of Wizard that develops under those pressures 'Batman' is a gross misapplication of the spirit and words of LN's guide.

Swordguy
2009-09-02, 02:57 PM
Pretty much. The original "be a team player by focusing on the stuff only you can do while everybody else does what they can do" concept got buried under the ensuing stream of challenges where a solo Wizard is forced to overcome a series of ever-more-improbably difficult and bizarre scenarios. Calling the kind of Wizard that develops under those pressures 'Batman' is a gross misapplication of the spirit and words of LN's guide.

Well, since when have minor quibbles like "facts" and "logic" been applicable on the internet?

9mm
2009-09-02, 02:58 PM
What other options are there in core, though? You can blast, and do more damage than melee a few times/day. It's not like there are nanobots or metamagic reducers to really get going super powerful in core.

What part of BATMAN DOESN'T DO DAMAGE, did you not understand?



And the "game-breaking " potential is simply the fact that it requires a slight adjustment of MM and NPC encounters than what comes straight from the books. It's not much more powerful than a half-giant with a spiked chain and the expansion power, in terms of having to adjust encounters. Saph's Horizon Tripper is about as competent as a Batman Wizard (barring abuse of Wish or Calling spells).
look you had to put in a qualifier to make your point, that's my point, a expanded half giant can't make something helpless with a spell and a taglefoot bag, he cant make an entire group stay where they with a single spell, he can't negate common advantages like invisiblity/hit-and-hide tactics, he can't render any non-magical ranged attack an auto fail. That's just core, and basic low-level tricks, start adding summoning, planning through divination, and the gap widens further.

Myrmex
2009-09-02, 03:09 PM
Most of the best BC spells are actually in Core. Outside of Core, you get spells like Spell Matrix, Arcane Spellsurge, Celerity, etc. Inside Core, you've got spells like Solid Fog, Cloudkill, etc.

That's exactly my point. Those core effects are FAR more manageable, since the only things that break the action economy inside core are quicken, schism, and time stop.


And nothing pre-Epic/Infinite can deal with a Time Stop+BC/Buffs. Not even the Horizon Tripper. If Batman wins init (and he very well will, thanks to Nerveskitter, Foresight, Moment of Prescience, a Warning dagger, Improved Init, and Shapechange into a Dire Tortoise), the battle's all ready lost.

Foresight is the only thing on that list that is Core. Also, it's difficult to stay Shapechanged as a Dire Tortoise all day without having persistent spell and metamagic reducers. I am not arguing that a highly optimized wizard is marginally better than a Horizon Tripper, I'm arguing that the Batman Wizard as presented by TLN is great, but not a campaign smasher, and doesn't always win. In fact, Batman "winning" is very dependent on the competency of his companions to dispatch things he disables. In the first ten levels of the game, where the vast majority of players play, most of his best best spells only last up to one single minute.


This is the reason Arcane casters are considered the game breakers, BTW. The Druid may have them beat in class features, the Artificer in spell access, but the Druid loses in spell effects (Divine BC isn't on the same level as Arcane BC), and the Artificer loses in preparation time (it takes him days to craft the items he needs, whereas the Wizard only needs 9 and a quarter hours to be prepared for anything the Artificer could throw at him).

Note the discussion of core stuff here. The druid is definitely a game breaker, even just in core. Or at least far superior to any of the other melee classes. Just the animal companion alone.


What part of BATMAN DOESN'T DO DAMAGE, did you not understand?

What part of BATMAN RELIES ON HIS TEAMMATES, did you not understand?

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-02, 03:24 PM
That's exactly my point. Those core effects are FAR more manageable, since the only things that break the action economy inside core are quicken, schism, and time stop.

Breaking the action economy just speeds up the encounters. It may be broken, but just letting them take the extra actions is easy to manage. Having to remember what every BC spell does to its victims and be aware of who is and who isn't affected by those spells is actually harder to keep track of than someone casting Celerity.


Foresight is the only thing on that list that is Core. Also, it's difficult to stay Shapechanged as a Dire Tortoise all day without having persistent spell and metamagic reducers. I am not arguing that a highly optimized wizard is marginally better than a Horizon Tripper, I'm arguing that the Batman Wizard as presented by TLN is great, but not a campaign smasher, and doesn't always win. In fact, Batman "winning" is very dependent on the competency of his companions to dispatch things he disables. In the first ten levels of the game, where the vast majority of players play, most of his best best spells only last up to one single minute.

Improved Initiative isn't Core? Moment of Prescience isn't Core? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/momentOfPrescience.htm)

Being able to completely shut down encounters for 1 round/CL isn't a game breaker? Being able to take 5 full rounds (10 with Shapechange+Chocker) before anyone else can even act isn't a game breaker? Even a single Summon spell is enough to give him the power to kill things, and he can always just use the remaining duration of his Shapechange to murder whatever he traps in Solid Fog+Dimension Lock.

Even at 10th level, Solid Fog lasts for 100 minutes. It's also a spell he can put into a wand, and never have to worry about his spell slots with. And 5 rounds is more than enough time to end an encounter (the average combat between an optimized party lasts between 3 and 5 rounds, going longer than that means something is going wrong or someone isn't optimized).

Batman Wizards don't need a party to kill things; it just makes killing things more cost-efficient for him.


Note the discussion of core stuff here. The druid is definitely a game breaker, even just in core. Or at least far superior to any of the other melee classes. Just the animal companion alone.

You brought up the Core part. The OP stated he can step outside of Core, and I'm adhering to that. Core still has game breaking spells, you just didn't see them.


What part of BATMAN RELIES ON HIS TEAMMATES, did you not understand?

What part of Shapechange=Balor=Batman not needing the party to kill things don't you understand? From levels 1-6, maybe. The instant he hits level 7 and gets 4th level BC spells and 3rd level summons, Batman Wizards no longer need a party to kill things for him. He may keep them around for the extra shields, but he doesn't absolutely need them to survive.


Edit: And Shapechange has a duration of 3 hours and 20 minutes at CL 20th. A Greater Rod of Extend Spell doubles that to 6 hours and 40 minutes, a little over a quarter of a day. Considering a Specialist Transmuter has 5 or more 9th level spell slots to cast Shapechange, he can have it active for the entire day (save for the 8 hours he rests to recover spells) at the cost of 3 spell slots. Hell, even a single 9th level Pearl of Power+Rod gives him 13 hours and 20 minutes of Shapechange.

So it's very likely that he can have Shapechange up for 24 hours if he has a Rod and a Pearl. Or a good Int score and a Rod.

Myrmex
2009-09-02, 03:44 PM
Breaking the action economy just speeds up the encounters. It may be broken, but just letting them take the extra actions is easy to manage. Having to remember what every BC spell does to its victims and be aware of who is and who isn't affected by those spells is actually harder to keep track of than someone casting Celerity.

Putting up necessary protective measures + firing off spells needed to breach protections + spells needed to kill/disable an opponent usually takes more than one round.


Improved Initiative isn't Core? Moment of Prescience isn't Core? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/momentOfPrescience.htm)

Clearly they aren't. :smallbiggrin:


Being able to completely shut down encounters for 1 round/CL isn't a game breaker? Being able to take 5 full rounds (10 with Shapechange+Chocker) before anyone else can even act isn't a game breaker? Even a single Summon spell is enough to give him the power to kill things, and he can always just use the remaining duration of his Shapechange to murder whatever he traps in Solid Fog+Dimension Lock.

Yes, of course it is. But it's only available for 3/20 of the game. And it only happens a couple times/day. A 20th level wizard has what, 5 level 9 spells? 6, in high point buy? What six ninth level spells do you prepare?

And a single summon spell is rarely enough to kill things, unless you've burned tons of your spells on making it blind & stupid. It's far more efficient to make some enemies blind, some enemies stupid, and let your party carve the rest up.


Even at 10th level, Solid Fog lasts for 100 minutes. It's also a spell he can put into a wand, and never have to worry about his spell slots with. And 5 rounds is more than enough time to end an encounter (the average combat between an optimized party lasts between 3 and 5 rounds, going longer than that means something is going wrong or someone isn't optimized).

Yes, but monsters only stay in it for 2 rounds, or they hang out in it drinking potions and come out as buffed as the party. Solid Fog is pretty incredible, but casting it doesn't mean 100 minutes of a monster sleeping or not moving. It also can be ruined with a Gust of Wind, as can the rest of the fog effects Batman relies on.


Batman Wizards don't need a party to kill things; it just makes killing things more cost-efficient for him.

So you're of the "blow all your spells on one encounter, teleport home to your MMM/rope trick, repeat," school? It does work, but it's so problematic with the metagame, I see it rarely used.


You brought up the Core part. The OP stated he can step outside of Core, and I'm adhering to that. Core still has game breaking spells, you just didn't see them.

I'm aware of what spells are "broken", but most of them aren't "broken" in the same sense Celerity, Time Stop, or Incantatrix is. They are really good at disabling creatures. It's FAR more efficient to disable a few creatures and let the meatshields handle them than try to do it all on your own.


What part of Shapechange=Balor=Batman not needing the party to kill things don't you understand? From levels 1-6, maybe. The instant he hits level 7 and gets 4th level BC spells and 3rd level summons, Batman Wizards no longer need a party to kill things for him. He may keep them around for the extra shields, but he doesn't absolutely need them to survive.

Wizards below level 12 have too few spells to get through a day. It's far better to build a Batman (you know, like in that guide you apparently haven't read yet), than try to build a character that can do one encounter/day.

7 rounds to have one SM III out will have difficulty with a blind giant. You actually have a pretty high chance of failure, with that.


Edit: And Shapechange has a duration of 3 hours and 20 minutes at CL 20th. A Greater Rod of Extend Spell doubles that to 6 hours and 40 minutes, a little over a quarter of a day. Considering a Specialist Transmuter has 5 or more 9th level spell slots to cast Shapechange, he can have it active for the entire day (save for the 8 hours he rests to recover spells) at the cost of 3 spell slots. Hell, even a single 9th level Pearl of Power+Rod gives him 13 hours and 20 minutes of Shapechange.

So it's very likely that he can have Shapechange up for 24 hours if he has a Rod and a Pearl. Or a good Int score and a Rod.

HOLY ****. I always thought that was rounds/level.
Yeah, wizard wins at level 20.
GG

Frosty
2009-09-02, 03:49 PM
Nope. It's 10 mins per caster level. I seriously suggest nerfing it down to minutes per CL at best.

tyckspoon
2009-09-02, 03:59 PM
Yes, of course it is. But it's only available for 3/20 of the game. And it only happens a couple times/day. A 20th level wizard has what, 5 level 9 spells? 6, in high point buy? What six ninth level spells do you prepare?


6, assuming specialization, with a working Int of 34 (18 from high starting value or racial bonus, +5 level up points, +6 Int item, +5 Inherent.) 7 if you can pick up 2 more points of Int from somewhere, like age bonuses or being able to combine a point-buy 18 with being a Grey Elf. And Shapechange x3 + Time Stop x3 would be a perfectly functional setup if you're a Transmutation specialist. If you're not, swap one of the Time Stop for your specialty school.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-02, 04:10 PM
If you play a blasting wizard, then its your own fault that you're suboptimal.

Actually... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116095)