Xykon's Zombies

[Starscream]

Wasn't sure whether or not this should go here or in the gaming forum, because it's basically an optimization question, but I put it here because it deals with our favorite necromancer, Xykon.

We all know that Xykon is made of awesome as well as a magnificent you-know-what, if not exactly a master tactician. But I have a question about his choice of minions.

I've never really played any evil necromancer types, but I can't help but wonder why he creates so many zombies. That seems to be his standard undead minion. The guy is epic level, surely he can make more formidable undead.

There were some ghouls/ghasts in the fight in the throne room, but Redcloak could have made those (he at least has shown a bit more creativity). The only times we've ever actually seen Xykon reanimate a corpse he makes it a zombie.

How optimized is this? Other than rare exceptions like the zombie silver dragon, most of his minions seem to be standard human zombies, who have only 2HD. A mid level adventurer could plow his way through an army of those. Wouldn't it be better to have a fewer number of more powerful undead, and use other spells to command them?

Is it a quantity vs quality thing? If so, wouldn't skeletons be a better choice because you can have twice as much of them without running into your 4*CL limit?

[Stormlock]

Maybe it's just a bit more realistic? I mean, zombie dragons are a lot more useful, but first you need a dead dragon. Admittedly Xykon can probably kill dragons fairly easily, but it's gotta be a hell of a lot easier to just raise the corpses of whatever's around (Like hobgoblins.) And frankly, vampire hobgoblins probably aren't that much more of a threat than a dozen zombies. Powerful undead are only scary with high HD. A 2HD ghost is going to fall pretty easily.

[Starscream]

Well, yeah, if you use templates to create the monsters like from Libris Mortis and Dragon Compendium.

If you stick to SRD stuff however (which the strip mostly does) then you just end up creating a normal example of the monster.

For instance if you cast Create Undead and are 18th level or higher you can create a Mohrg. That's a 14 HD undead. It says nothing in the spell description about needing a 14 HD corpse.

Wouldn't that (EL 8) be a better use of your HD limit (and a bigger savings on corpses) than 14 human skeletons or 7 human zombies (both EL 4)?

[CyberRebirth]

Yes, however Xykon, even as an epic level sorcerer, still has a limit on the HD of undead he can control, having hundreds of zombies is far more useful than a few 14 HD monsters, at least in the case of the siege of azure city.

[Mystic Muse]

For instance if you cast Create Undead and are 18th level or higher you can create a Mohrg.

YAY! undead related pun!:smallbiggrin:

[Starscream]

Yes, however Xykon, even as an epic level sorcerer, still has a limit on the HD of undead he can control, having hundreds of zombies is far more useful than a few 14 HD monsters, at least in the case of the siege of azure city.

I dunno, he had a huge army of hobgoblins to do the grunt work in that case. A few shambling zombies wouldn't have made that much of a difference (with the possible exception of the flying ones).

I mean look how much damage was done by that one Death Knight before it was (accidentally) destroyed. A couple more of him could have made a much bigger impact than even a couple dozen more zombies.

[CyberRebirth]

Technically a Death Knight is free willed, and not under the control of the creator.

Perhaps you are correct though. Maybe Xykon just isn't that into optimization.

[Stormlock]

Well, yeah, if you use templates to create the monsters like from Libris Mortis and Dragon Compendium.

If you stick to SRD stuff however (which the strip mostly does) then you just end up creating a normal example of the monster.

For instance if you cast Create Undead and are 18th level or higher you can create a Mohrg. That's a 14 HD undead. It says nothing in the spell description about needing a 14 HD corpse.

Wouldn't that (EL 8) be a better use of your HD limit (and a bigger savings on corpses) than 14 human skeletons or 7 human zombies (both EL 4)?

Xykon wouldn't be able to command the Mohrg. It's not controlled by default as with Animate Dead. Redcloak could do it, but unless he's got some special features, he can only command his level in undead HD at once, and needs to have double the level of the highest HD of undead he can command (Same requirement as destroying with turn undead.) So I don't think even he could do it. Theres also the bit in the Mohrg's description about being the animated corpse of a mass murderer who never atoned. Even if you handwave that though, the most Xykon could do is tie it up and set it loose somewhere annoying for the order.

Well actually, there is the Command Undead spell, which has a 1 level/day duration. However, intelligent undead get a saving throw, and even with that failed they aren't so much your minions as your buddies. Not really great for long term guard duty/cannon fodder.

All in all I'd say the best use for those Onyxes is to make some nice fat zombies/skeletons out of the biggest, nastiest corpses around. Red dragon skeletons have fire and cold immunity for example, and are mindless and therefore easily controlled.


What I always wonder about is why the necromancers never just use animals. You can create and command a freaking army of animals since their HD are so low, and a few hundred undead birds, while easily turned, would be a royal pain in the ass generally speaking. Especially if you told them to go tear apart all the crops. In the middle of the night, without warning. Or a hundred or so zombie monkeys climbing into a city with oil flasks and a few with torches. Or if you don't mind getting wet, Giant Octopi get 8 tentacle attacks, very good grapple modifiers, and they have a land speed. Or, if you could find a tribe, zombie/skeleton pixies. Flying + can wield bows + 1 HD each + small size + good dex = good AC, good ranged attack, and you can cram a ton into the air.

[Mugen Nightgale]

Xykon prefers awesome instead of powerful. I guess if he wanted to powergame since the beginning he'd just release the MitD or some uber epic mojo.
Zombies are funny everybody loves em. "Brains...." heh never gets old.

[Cizak]

Haven't read everything because the posts was too long, but I have to say that it was Redcloak who made the zombie dragon.

[Forbiddenwar]

I agree that Xykon isn't interested in optimization but in entertainment, and what is more fun than watching a horde of 1/2 CR zombies crush a mid-high level party?
Watching the mid-high level party being eaten afterwards of course. No one in the OOTsverse is interested in optimizations.
In short, this is another "why doesn't Character X do Y? It's more powerful and would skip so much plot (and jokes)" thread

[Starscream]

Or a hundred or so zombie monkeys climbing into a city with oil flasks and a few with torches.

I've always wanted to do a necromancer build where I make mindless undead, hand them each a tube of Sovereign Glue, and give orders that when attacked they are to spread the glue on themselves and then grapple the opponents.

I'm pretty sure that would suit Xykon's sense of humor just fine.:smallbiggrin:

Better yet, convince some Wights or other level draining undead to do it. That'd be nasty.

[Ancalagon]

I agree that Xykon isn't interested in optimization but in entertainment, and what is more fun than watching a horde of 1/2 CR zombies crush a mid-high level party?
Watching the mid-high level party being eaten afterwards of course. No one in the OOTsverse is interested in optimizations.
In short, this is another "why doesn't Character X do Y? It's more powerful and would skip so much plot (and jokes)" thread

I think you are the first one in this thread who understood Xykon. The above is true, also Xykon simply does not care. He always has made zombies (from back when he was a low-level-necromancer), it always has worked, it's the application of stupid force, so why bother to change it?

[Zolkabro]

The only time he's ever changed his habits is here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0193.html), and that's still zombies, just cooler zombies.

[whitelaughter]

to create more powerful undead, he needs an additional spell to do so - and then another spell to control them. Sorcerers don't get many spell options, so it's pricy.

Besides, as noted above, personality is everything. Zombies have one redeeming advantage - hit points. They can slow adventurers down, buying the time for Xykon to kill them. And Xykon likes killing things. Granted he also like watching things being killed, but powerful underlings might slaughter the good guys before Xykon arrived to enjoy the spectacle.

[Berserk Monk]

Yes, creating something other than low-level human zombies is a good idea, but Xykon and good ideas go together like Haley and sharing, Belkar and pacifism, and Elan and intelligence.

[Starscream]

Yes, creating something other than low-level human zombies is a good idea, but Xykon and good ideas go together like Haley and sharing, Belkar and pacifism, and Elan and intelligence.

:roy: and hair?
:durkon: and character development?
:thog: and Teletubbies?
:sabine: and chastity belts?
:vaarsuvius: and gender specific pronouns?
:miko: and everyone else?