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Myrmex
2009-09-01, 11:58 PM
So I was mulling over how to do an alchemist right, and I realized that if you refluffed the wizard, you could get a decent alchemist.

For instance, rather than prepare your spells for the day, you would brew up a bunch of potions for the day. Then, instead of casting one, you would crack it open and drink it or throw it or pour it on yourself. You could easily make a set of rules to make potions limited to all the restrictions spells are to prevent hoarding or making Finger of Death traps on doorknobs.

Anyway, how would you go about building an ogre wizard that was a focused specialist transmuter who "cast" his spells like this? He was camp cook for his clan's warband, and one day while trying to salvage edibles from a wizard's tower they had raided (ogre food and spell components are surprisingly similar), he accidentally discovered the magic of cooking. Literally. Now he travels the world looking for new recipes to add to his cookbook and serving as camp cook for adventuring parties.

What feats would be appropriate? Prestige Classes?
For a PC and not an NPC, what could be done to lessen the 6 levels of not casting, while still staying a big, stinky, physically powerful creature?

herrhauptmann
2009-09-02, 12:00 AM
I'm not sure, but if you want to introduce this idea to your party after you've fleshed it out, try running them through the adventure module "something's cooking in the kitchen."
My party loved the golem fight. Since I had a pyro psion, and a druid who used Cast flame or something for his first 5 rounds of combat. :)

avr
2009-09-02, 12:08 AM
For a PC, I'd let him trade in most of the ogre HD for wizard levels. 6 caster levels is too many to give up and remain useful, unless you want to take exactly one level of wizard and then go back to non-casting classes.

As far as the PC's options go - alchemist savant (Magic of Eberron, I think) is an obvious PrC and Practiced Spellcaster an obvious feat. Otherwise, look up the usual gish stuff.

kpenguin
2009-09-02, 12:22 AM
I'm not sure, but if you want to introduce this idea to your party after you've fleshed it out, try running them through the adventure module "something's cooking in the kitchen."
My party loved the golem fight. Since I had a pyro psion, and a druid who used Cast flame or something for his first 5 rounds of combat. :)

I love that module. Calzone Golem for the win.

Hawriel
2009-09-02, 12:26 AM
Refluff the wizard? I've always thought wizards where natual alchemists.

elliott20
2009-09-02, 12:38 AM
I did something like this a long time ago with a smellamancer, who makes magical potions that basically function off of smell.

Another_Poet
2009-09-02, 12:42 AM
I have to disagree with Avr. Only spells of 3rd level or lower can be made into potions, so the ogre needs no more than 5 levels of wizard over his whole career. He can keep his racial HD and fill his role quite nicely.

I would build him as an Ogre Wiz5, which would make him CR 6 (wizard is a "nonassociated" class for ogres, as it doesn't complements their strengths, so the first 4 levels only increase the CR by 1/2 each). He needs to have Int 13 to cast 3rd-level spells, which means he needs to have rolled or bought a 17 Int at char gen (since Ogres have -4 Int). Of course, for save DC it would help if his intelligence is yet higher...

I would let him retrain his racial feats. This is what I would do:

1 HD (Ogre) - Brew Potion (retrained at Wiz1)
3 HD (Ogre) - Spell Focus (retrained at Wiz1)
5 HD (Wiz1) - Scribe Scroll Bonus Feat
6 HD (Wiz2) - Extend Spell
9 HD (Wiz 5) - Spell Focus (another school)

Thus getting the DCs up as much as possible. Most metamagic won't do him much good because he doesn't have many spell levels to play with and things like Quicken, Still or Silent won't affect potions anyhow. But Extend Spellis great for buff potions and only takes one spell level.

The most important things that he needs however are:


A source of gold
A source of XP


Since he is an NPC, how you choose to rule this is largely up to you. But I would bear in mind that brewing potions is a fairly expensive process and takes a toll on the brewer. You may want to think of a way to reflect this in RPing him.

The cool thing about this guy is, even though he is far from optimized, he is still way more dangerous than the Ogre Mage yet has a lower CR!

ap

TheThan
2009-09-02, 12:48 AM
Come on everyone knows ogres cooks (called butchers) utilize Gut magic, a gift from the great maw.

Myrmex
2009-09-02, 01:05 AM
I have to disagree with Avr. Only spells of 3rd level or lower can be made into potions, so the ogre needs no more than 5 levels of wizard over his whole career. He can keep his racial HD and fill his role quite nicely.

I would build him as an Ogre Wiz5, which would make him CR 6 (wizard is a "nonassociated" class for ogres, as it doesn't complements their strengths, so the first 4 levels only increase the CR by 1/2 each). He needs to have Int 13 to cast 3rd-level spells, which means he needs to have rolled or bought a 17 Int at char gen (since Ogres have -4 Int). Of course, for save DC it would help if his intelligence is yet higher...

I would let him retrain his racial feats. This is what I would do:

1 HD (Ogre) - Brew Potion (retrained at Wiz1)
3 HD (Ogre) - Spell Focus (retrained at Wiz1)
5 HD (Wiz1) - Scribe Scroll Bonus Feat
6 HD (Wiz2) - Extend Spell
9 HD (Wiz 5) - Spell Focus (another school)

Thus getting the DCs up as much as possible. Most metamagic won't do him much good because he doesn't have many spell levels to play with and things like Quicken, Still or Silent won't affect potions anyhow. But Extend Spellis great for buff potions and only takes one spell level.

The most important things that he needs however are:


A source of gold
A source of XP


Since he is an NPC, how you choose to rule this is largely up to you. But I would bear in mind that brewing potions is a fairly expensive process and takes a toll on the brewer. You may want to think of a way to reflect this in RPing him.

The cool thing about this guy is, even though he is far from optimized, he is still way more dangerous than the Ogre Mage yet has a lower CR!

ap

Yeah, I'm not going to bother with crafting feats. They can be useful for PCs, but I find alchemy based off of the actual crafting rules almost never works. It's clunky and poorly balanced. Better to tweak an existing class feature. In this case, refluffing spellcasting, preparation, and learning.

Bonecrusher Doc
2009-09-02, 01:11 AM
Otherwise, look up the usual gish stuff.

Pardon me - this is the second time I've seen this word in as many days. What does "gish" mean?

Kylarra
2009-09-02, 01:20 AM
Pardon me - this is the second time I've seen this word in as many days. What does "gish" mean?

- Gish: A fighter/wizard multiclass character, specifically one capable of casting higher level spells and surviving melee combat. May also be broadened to refer to any combination of warrior/arcane (or psionic caster) classes. Hybrid classes such as bards, duskblades, hexblades, and psychic warriors are generally not considered examples (multiclass characters only). Originates from the term for a Githyanki war wizard (in 2e, a fighter/wizard or rogue/wizard).

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=574238&postcount=2

Set
2009-09-02, 05:01 AM
I did something like this a long time ago with a smellamancer, who makes magical potions that basically function off of smell.

Back in 2e, we had 'Craftmages,' inspired by some Kits in the Complete Sha'irs Handbook.

Each was a wizard kit that performed some craft skill to prepare spells, and the magic was imbued in the crafted items. There was a kind of variable chart, as some crafts (weaving, calligraphy, brewing, paperfolding, gemcutting, clockwork tinkering, perfumes, tattoos, etc.) took way more time or materials costs than others, and the crafted items in the expensive cases would be re-usable.

My favorites were the origami paperfolder craftsmage, who would fold up orange paper to make a fireball, or make a literal 'paper tiger' with summon monster (due to the super-cheap material costs, the origami craftsmage had to 'prepare' his spells as he used them, taking a round to fold up his fireball before throwing it the next round) and the clockwork craftsmage who made a 'flamethrower' for burning hands and a gauntlet of copper with tubes and wires for shocking grasp, and then would send time 'refueling' or 'recharging' them instead of preparing spells.

Fun stuff.

AxeD
2009-09-02, 07:02 AM
I'm new to the forums, but shouldn't this thread be in the Homebrew section?

bosssmiley
2009-09-02, 08:35 AM
Alchemy for non-casters (http://vaultsofnagoh.blogspot.com/2009/03/alchemy-revisited-or-they-call-me-mr.html)

The Neoclassic
2009-09-02, 10:06 AM
I'm new to the forums, but shouldn't this thread be in the Homebrew section?

Nah. This could go in either, really. It's asking about help with character design (which goes into roleplaying games), but people are mentioning creating new PrCs/rules for such a character later (which is more homebrew stuff).

I wish I could help. I made a baking-oriented prestige class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122051)(second post), but I don't think it's really what you want. Perhaps it could give you a few ideas, though, if you decided to make your own feats or prestige class...

Rixx
2009-09-02, 01:00 PM
Paizo is working on a class that's pretty much exactly this for the Pathfinder RPG. Since 3.5 classes are compatible with Pathfinder, the reverse is true as well.


Next up is the Alchemist. Now, I know what you are thinking. Brewing alchemist fire and crafting tindertwigs is not the stuff of adventurers, and hardly enough to build an entire class around. On that, I would agree, but we are taking this in a slightly different direction. Think of the alchemist a bit more like Dr. Jekyll. He brews up elixirs, mixes up unguents and powders, and crafts all sorts of tricks to use in a fight. While some of these will certainly mimic spells, others might allow him to gain fiendish qualities, breath fire, or even transform into a puddle of living ooze. At higher levels, he will be able to use some of his concoctions on others, granting them some of his strange abilities. This class will work like an arcane caster, in that he will prepare his alchemy for the day and use them as day goes on, as they most likely do not keep for long. There will undoubtedly be a host of new alchemical items in the book for him to tinker with as well.

http://paizo.com/paizo/blog

bosssmiley
2009-09-03, 09:47 AM
Paizo is working on a class that's pretty much exactly this for the Pathfinder RPG. Since 3.5 classes are compatible with Pathfinder, the reverse is true as well.

http://paizo.com/paizo/blog

This from the people who gave us half feats, achievement feats, CMD, and fighters 75% likely to lose a mirror match while at the same time buffing full-casters? I am filled with hope and confidence (also, sarcasm). :smallannoyed:

Prediction: the paizo-designed alchemist will be either

overcomplex and broken to the point of worthlessness, or
a reheat of something found in someone else's waste paper basket (*cough* sorcerer bloodlines *cough*)

woodenbandman
2009-09-03, 10:14 AM
That Alchemy thing is great. I'm putting it into my low magic campaign setting.

Deth Muncher
2009-09-03, 10:25 AM
I don't think it's been mentioned yet, so I will: In the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, there's a Potionmaster PrC (that's not the name, merely a description). Basically, makes brewing potions easier, and you can brew up to lv9 potions, as opposed to...what, lv3? Yeah.

So what I would do, were I making this ogre cook,would be use a base of Wizard or refluffed Artificer (Cookificer?), then go into the Potionmaster class. Again, all of this needs refluffage, but it looks like you're doing that anyway.

Also, totally stealing the idea of an ogre cook for my next campaign. ^_^

jiriku
2009-09-03, 11:36 AM
Myrmex the simplest way to make the character more effective as a PC would be to use half-giant or half-ogre as your race, and simply reflavor the fluff on top of the race mechanics ("he's just a little small"). This would refund quite a few caster levels for you.

Also, what sort of description are you planning to use when he casts spells with a medium or long range? Does he just have a killer arm to throw his "potions" that far? Maybe he uses an atlalt or a sling to toss them?

hamishspence
2009-09-03, 02:09 PM
I don't think it's been mentioned yet, so I will: In the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, there's a Potionmaster PrC (that's not the name, merely a description). Basically, makes brewing potions easier, and you can brew up to lv9 potions, as opposed to...what, lv3?

Prestige Class is called the Master Alchemist, and is in Magic of Faerun.

It can indeed brew up 9th level potions, though.

Deth Muncher
2009-09-03, 02:16 PM
Prestige Class is called the Master Alchemist, and is in Magic of Faerun.

It can indeed brew up 9th level potions, though.

Ah, thank you. I can always rest easy in the knowledge that any time I make reference to something but am not 100% sure on the fact, there's always at least one person in the Playground who knows what I'm talking about better than I do. :D It's an assuring thought.

Myrmex
2009-09-03, 11:02 PM
I am digging the magic food. It is hilarious & awesome. The alchemy rules are neat, but a little too powerful for the type of gamers I currently play with. I will run it by them, but I sense hesitation. They are old school caster wankers who don't know how to play a 3e wizard. :smallwink:


Myrmex the simplest way to make the character more effective as a PC would be to use half-giant or half-ogre as your race, and simply reflavor the fluff on top of the race mechanics ("he's just a little small"). This would refund quite a few caster levels for you.

Good plan. What book is half-ogre in, Savage Species?


Also, what sort of description are you planning to use when he casts spells with a medium or long range? Does he just have a killer arm to throw his "potions" that far? Maybe he uses an atlalt or a sling to toss them?

That's a good question. Casting spells on other people also needs help. Maybe he uncorks the potion and it does his bidding? Disintegrate comes out of a steel flask in a sudden, arching rush, vanishing whatever it touches. Finger of Death explodes out of a murky flask with a green bang, and a creature clutches its heart and keels over. But casting bull strength on anyone but myself, I dunno....


Prestige Class is called the Master Alchemist, and is in Magic of Faerun.

It can indeed brew up 9th level potions, though.

I will look into this. Does it get full casting?

Agrippa
2009-09-03, 11:14 PM
Alchemy for non-casters (http://vaultsofnagoh.blogspot.com/2009/03/alchemy-revisited-or-they-call-me-mr.html)

Makes perfect sense. Otherwise who else would there be to bake the soothing pies?

Cieyrin
2009-09-03, 11:29 PM
Good plan. What book is half-ogre in, Savage Species?

Half-Ogre comes from Races of Destiny, at least the most recent version does.

hamishspence
2009-09-04, 11:10 AM
I will look into this. Does it get full casting?

It does. Prerequites include 4th level Arcane casting, and the feats Skill Focus (Alchemy), Magical Artisan (Potion) and Brew Potion.