PDA

View Full Version : [4.0] Rogue/Druid multiclass?



Voice of Reason
2009-09-02, 12:02 AM
Alright, basically, the title says it all. I'm starting a 16th level campain in a new group and my brain is buzzing with all sorts of new ideas for a charecter build. Currently, I'm trying to make a druid multiclass "useful" when put in combination with other classes. What I'm really itching to know is if there's any core, legal content that allows a druid to activate a rogue's sneak attack class feature with it's attacks.

Now, let me specify: I don't really need to be able to use druid beast form powers to trigger the Sneak Attack, all I need is for the druid to be in beast form at the time (I'm looking for potential synergy between ferocious tiger form, claw gloves, and sneak attack). My best bet for awhile was to use Claw Armor, so as to have a light blade available while in beast form; the problem is that you can't attack with it, as a basic melee attack is an attack power that lacks the beast form keyword :smallannoyed:

So, does anyone know of a way to activate a rogue's sneak attack class feature while in beast form? I'm open to any avenue at this point, no matter how ridiculous, and my DM has already approved any official WotC material (all sourcebooks, all dungeon/dragon content, all playtests, etc.). This means that a hybrid charecter is an option, but then I need some way to activate a rogue at-will, melee power while in beast form, or else the hybrid sneak attack function won't work.

Master_Rahl22
2009-09-02, 08:06 AM
I'm thinking unless there is some way to add the Beast Form keyword to the Rogue powers, you're SOL. It specifically says that the only powers you can use while in Beast Form are Beast Form powers, although you can sustain others. So, I suppose if you can find a Rogue power that allows you to sustain it and make an attack each time you do, then you can Sneak Attack while in Beast Form. That's the only way I can think of to make it work.

Yakk
2009-09-02, 10:08 AM
There is no core way to use any weapon power while in beast form at this point and time, and the only implement powers that work in beast form are the special druid ones.

Asking your DM to have claws in beast form that count as light blades (+3/1d6), and let you use WEAPON keyword powers while in beast form, is quite reasonable. If the DM wants to charge you a feat, have them be (+3/1d8) claws instead (ie, a rapier).

Mando Knight
2009-09-02, 10:24 AM
There's no way to make a Sneak Attack in beast form. All Beast Form powers are implement powers, and currently there's no way to make a light blade, crossbow, etc. function as a totem for a Druid.

Also, are you Druid/Rogue, or Rogue/Druid? Rogue/Druid doesn't really synergize, since Wisdom isn't one of the Rogue's big three attributes, but Druid/Rogue can make use of a Predator Druid's high Dex...

As for basic melee attacks, several of the Beast Form at-wills function as melee basics...

ShadowsGrnEyes
2009-09-02, 11:43 AM
as is the case with all situations that simply wont alow somthing. . . ask the DM for a homebrew magic item that lets you do it anyway. . . that's my only sugestion.

FlawedParadigm
2009-09-02, 12:57 PM
Yeah, that's my big gripe about the current Druid layout. You need some kind of DM fiat to multiclass it effectively with anything if you intend to make any regular use of Beast Form. For extra fun, they decided to make all the best powers (IMO) and Druid-focused magic items focus on Beast Form - I can't blame them for that, it's the only really unique thing Druids have going for them anymore. Just for kicks, they decided the only Druid power you get in Hybrid is Wild Shape, which basically works out as a *curse* for any Hybrid you might make. The only combination I've found effective by strictly obeying the rules is Druid/Cleric - you can prowl around in Beast Form for a round or two, and then shift out to humanoid form, and use the free shift to make sure you're out of OA range for using a Cleric power. That works decently well.

My solution? Well, here's the offending text:
"While you are in beast form, you canít use attack, utility, or feat powers that lack the beast form keyword, although you can sustain such powers."

I would alter this to:
"While you are in beast form, you can't use attack, utility, or feat powers with the implement keyword that lack the beast form keyword, or attack, utility, or feat powers with the weapon keyword that lack the primal keyword, although you can sustain such powers."

This means while hulking out, you are limited to IMPLEMENT powers as before, but you can at least use WEAPON powers from your own power source, which I think is both flavourful and logical. Note: This doesn't change the rule about dropping held non-implement items while shifting, so your weapon options are limited to Spiked Gauntlets (which are worn, not held), or the various items like Claw Armour, Climbing Gloves, or Boar Tusk Helm (Dragon 378) that aren't held, but do grant a weapon attack.

I've known at least one DM generous enough to go ahead and allow weapons to meld as well, but I can't imagine a good reason for anyone not to allow the above solution, aside from being a strict RAW-fundamentalist.

Yakk
2009-09-02, 01:31 PM
Feat patch:

Natural Weapon: Druid, Wild Shape feature.
While in beast form, you are considered proficient with and equipped with a natural weapon of your choice. This weapon is enchanted with the same enhancement bonus as your equipped druid implement and uses your equiped implement's critical bonus damage dice. You may take this feat multiple times, each time picking an additional natural weapon. In addition, while in beast form you may use Weapon powers through your Natural Weapons. If the Natural Weapon is off-hand, you may choose to be wielding the Natural Weapon in both hands.

Natural Weapons
+3 Prof, 1d8 Damage Claws (Natural Weapon, Light Blade, One Handed, Offhand)
+2 Prof, 1d12 Damage Swipe (Natural Weapon, Hammer, One Handed, Offhand)
+3 Prof, 1d12 Damage High Crit Bite (Natural Weapon, Pick, Two Handed)
+2 Prof, 1d10 Damage High Crit Stinger (Natural Weapon, Reach, Polearm, Spear, Two Handed)

These weapons are designed to be balanced with superior weapons, rather than normal weapons. The additional keywords that don't make much sense exist in order to let them work with other classes powers.

Mando Knight
2009-09-02, 02:42 PM
Or perhaps an item patch...

Totemic Blade
A weapon with a blade made from the claw of a primal beast.
{TABLE]Lvl 2|+1|520 gp|Lvl 17|+4|65000 gp
Lvl 7|+2|2600 gp|Lvl 22|+5|325000 gp
Lvl 12|+3|13000 gp|Lvl 27|+6|1625000 gp[/TABLE]
Weapon: Light Blade (usually daggers or sickles)
Enhancement: Attack and Damage rolls
Critical: +1d6 per plus
Property: Druids and Shamans can use this weapon as an implement for their powers.

According to the Character Builder, a Pact Blade can't be used in conjunction with a Warlock power to deal Sneak Attack damage, but I'd allow an item like this to work with Sneak Attack. (Personally, I think it's an oversight on behalf of WotC, since Weapon Focus applies to Weapons-as-Implements...)

FlawedParadigm
2009-09-02, 03:13 PM
Feat patch:

Natural Weapon: Druid, Wild Shape feature.
While in beast form, you are considered proficient with and equipped with a natural weapon of your choice. This weapon is enchanted with the same enhancement bonus as your equipped druid implement and uses your equiped implement's critical bonus damage dice. You may take this feat multiple times, each time picking an additional natural weapon. In addition, while in beast form you may use Weapon powers through your Natural Weapons. If the Natural Weapon is off-hand, you may choose to be wielding the Natural Weapon in both hands.

Natural Weapons
+3 Prof, 1d8 Damage Claws (Natural Weapon, Light Blade, One Handed, Offhand)
+2 Prof, 1d12 Damage Swipe (Natural Weapon, Hammer, One Handed, Offhand)
+3 Prof, 1d12 Damage High Crit Bite (Natural Weapon, Pick, Two Handed)
+2 Prof, 1d10 Damage High Crit Stinger (Natural Weapon, Reach, Polearm, Spear, Two Handed)

These weapons are designed to be balanced with superior weapons, rather than normal weapons. The additional keywords that don't make much sense exist in order to let them work with other classes powers.

I think you're going way too far to fix this; balancing with superiour STRIKER weapons is a big mistake, I am thinking, for a primary Controller/Secondary Striker. Give them any of these + Claw Gloves (AV 2 set item - level 4, +1d10 damage in Beast Form whenever they have CA) and they'll probably be putting all the other single-target strikers to shame. I'd put the balance more along lines of military weapons.

Keep in mind that even if you're Hybrided with a Striker class or something, you're already getting to freely mix the two classes' powers, along with Beast Form and all the feats that MASSIVELY enhance it (Ferocious Tiger, Enraged Board, Stalking Panther, Hunting Wolf, Primal Fury, etc.) and I think you're already doing pretty well at that point. I might even personally balance them more after simple weapons.

Remember all these feats Beast Form gets - WotC DID need to keep a tight leash on what you can mix it with, but I think they kept it a little too tight.

cdrcjsn
2009-09-02, 03:27 PM
It specifically says that the only powers you can use while in Beast Form are Beast Form powers, although you can sustain others.


Not strictly correct.

You cannot use Attack, Utility or Feat powers while in beast form.

You can use class features, racial abilities and other things that don't fall under the above three categories.

Also, you can use one of the feats in Martial Power that allows you to use an alternate weapon for sneak damage (I think eladrins can use longswords, dwarves can use axes, etc).

There's a bunch of weapons in AV that allows them to be used as a totem. I know there's one for a spear and one for a club.

So if you combine all the above, I think it's possible to make a Rogue that MCs into druid and sneak attack while wildshaped using implement powers.

Voice of Reason
2009-09-02, 03:29 PM
Well, you can gain light blades as a druid implement, but it requires a druid hybrid with a swordmage. Alternatively, druid hybrid with a sorcerer allows the use of daggers as druid implement (I believe even sorcerer multiclass could work for that, as I see no text limiting the use of "sorcerer implements" to sorcerer or arcane powers only). The problem with that is that now that you've got the light blade, you've lost the sneak attack.

I was very exited about the Staff of Knives in the AV2 for some time, but I'm begining to doubt that the staff still functions as a staff implement while a dagger via its at-will power. Of course, how would that work with a druid then? Use it as a staff implement, wild shape, then activate the at-will power? If its no longer an implement...then you can't hold it while wild shaped. But how do you drop something that's been absorbed into your body already :smalltongue:

On the other hand, if it does remain a staff implement...

FlawedParadigm: That's pretty much what I'm looking to use/abuse, although I think you're putting a little too much emphasis on the benefits of hybrid multiclassing with a druid. A hybrid ranger/rogue/warlock can only apply their extra damage when they hit with a power of their respective class, which can't be used in combination with wild shape (barring house-rules).

However, what you can do (and what I plan to do most likely) is make a half-eld warlock primary with a druid multiclass. Use Improved Dilletant to gain a druid at-will attack power. Apply all the appropriate druid feats and items (ferocious tiger, claw gloves, etc) and have fun, because you can still gain the benefits of Warlock's curse, Pact Boon, Prime Shot, and Shadow Walk class features even while wild-shaped.

EDIT: Cdrcjsn: Really now? I'll have to go have a good, long look at that feat in Martial power. Be back soon.

Mando Knight
2009-09-02, 04:02 PM
There's a bunch of weapons in AV that allows them to be used as a totem. I know there's one for a spear and one for a club.

The weapons in AV2 that you're thinking of only apply for Shamans, and the only such weapon that overlaps with any of the Rogue weapons happens to be the club--one of the worst weapons for a weapon-based class, and even requires an extra feat to use. Bad deal. :smallyuk:

Yakk
2009-09-02, 04:10 PM
I think you're going way too far to fix this; balancing with superiour STRIKER weapons is a big mistake,
Superior weapons are superior weapons. I'm charging a feat.

I am thinking, for a primary Controller/Secondary Striker. Give them any of these + Claw Gloves (AV 2 set item - level 4, +1d10 damage in Beast Form whenever they have CA) and they'll probably be putting all the other single-target strikers to shame. I'd put the balance more along lines of military weapons.
Ah -- ya, Claw Gloves are too powerful if you let Beast Form critters have access to real weapons. In fact, from the description, Claw Gloves are too powerful period.

I could see wearing those gloves forever, which is a sign of a bug in a level 4 item. And they are a huge, huge damage boost.

Keep in mind that even if you're Hybrided with a Striker class or something, you're already getting to freely mix the two classes' powers, along with Beast Form and all the feats that MASSIVELY enhance it (Ferocious Tiger, Enraged Board, Stalking Panther, Hunting Wolf, Primal Fury, etc.) and I think you're already doing pretty well at that point. I might even personally balance them more after simple weapons.

Remember all these feats Beast Form gets - WotC DID need to keep a tight leash on what you can mix it with, but I think they kept it a little too tight.
But this is a better point. There are some nasty Beast Form feats for characters who want to be pseudo-strikers in Beast Form.

FlawedParadigm
2009-09-02, 06:31 PM
I have a character sheet in .pdf form of what a Beast Form Druid might get away with, trying to go full striker, if you're interested. Probably not highly optimised, but the CO boards, I note, have 2 of their 3 Druid guides built around this same premise, so I must assume that if CO leans that way, then it can indeed be done. Feel free to PM me if you're interested in the file and we can work out details.

Thajocoth
2009-09-02, 06:43 PM
This is a Rogue who multiclassed Druid?

It says all of your items become part of your beast form and you drop anything you're holding... So you'd need a light blade that is not an item or weapon.

Only one I can think of is a Gnoll racial feat. Claw fighter gives you claws on each hand with Shortsword stats. (Not enchantable).

There's a second problem though... You cannot use any attacks that don't contain the Beast Form keyword. Melee Basic Attack does not contain the Beast Form keyword.

-----

The usefulness of multiclassing Druid is actually for ranged players who have good wis. If forced into melee, they now have a way to not get their butt kicked.