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Eloel
2009-09-02, 02:22 AM
Well, here's another build idea I have for the arena I've posted about in Mailman Gestalt. I want a level9, gestalt 'turtle' build.
What I'd expect from a turtle build;
High AC. Preferably 30+, more is good.
High saves. 20+ is needed, 25+ is great.
Mettle & Evasion, there's no point in high saves if you still get hurt.

The real challenge is, getting this in 9 levels, with upto 5 classes, 2 of which are PrCs.
So far, my idea includes a Halfling Fighter 1/Monk 8//Favored Soul 9 build. It doesn't get Mettle, but it has 11 base to every save, +1 from halfling, evasion, 9 BAB to be used with Combat Expertise, Wis to AC, and 9th level Favored Soul casting.

Anything to improve it?

olentu
2009-09-02, 02:29 AM
Well, here's another build idea I have for the arena I've posted about in Mailman Gestalt. I want a level9, gestalt 'turtle' build.
What I'd expect from a turtle build;
High AC. Preferably 30+, more is good.
High saves. 20+ is needed, 25+ is great.
Mettle & Evasion, there's no point in high saves if you still get hurt.

The real challenge is, getting this in 9 levels, with upto 5 classes, 2 of which are PrCs.
So far, my idea includes a Halfling Fighter 1/Monk 8//Favored Soul 9 build. It doesn't get Mettle, but it has 11 base to every save, +1 from halfling, evasion, 9 BAB to be used with Combat Expertise, Wis to AC, and 9th level Favored Soul casting.

Anything to improve it?

What restrictions are on races and depending on that answer how do LA and racial HD work with the gestalt.

Eldariel
2009-09-02, 02:42 AM
I'd make it Charisma-based. That gets you Paladin/Hexblade, which gets you Cha to saves twice and Mettle. Then you can use racial progression of some race (maybe Nymph) on the other side that gains Cha to AC. Then you can take Monk & Sorcerer-levels and pick up Ascetic Mage for Cha to AC again, and finally take two levels of Arcane Duelist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a) to pick up Cha to AC a third time. Then just pump your Charisma to (un)holy hell and go to town. Two levels of Monk give you Evasion.


Something like:

LA 7/HD 2 // HD 4/Paladin 2/Monk 2/Sorc 1

Still incomplete but you have Cha to AC and Saves twice so you should be able to doooo eeeet. And umm, if not wanting monstrous races:

Paladin 2/Hexblade 3/Monk 2/Arcane Duelist 2//Sorc 9

This gets you Cha to AC and saves twice, Mettle, Evasion and full Sorc casting. Race is obviously Dragonwrought Loredrake Desert Kobold (or the variant that loses Int; see which feels better) and who has gone through Greater Draconic Rite of Passage to cast as a 12th level Sorcerer. Magic-Blooded [Dragon #306] while at it.

Then just start with Venerable age category and base 18 Cha. This gives you 23 on level 1, 25 with the level-ups and 29 with the item that you will doubtless craft. That means +9 so you have +18 to all saves and AC, which already puts AC at 28. Small, Natural Armor, Mage Armor, Amulet of Natural Armor, Ring of Deflection (or god forbid, Polymorph + Assume Supernatural Ability), they add up. You can go way over 30. Your base saves are also pretty nice (good Will on all levels, good Fort on all but Hexblade, good Ref from Monk and Arcane Duelist) and we haven't counted your ability scores yet. But yeah, 2 +2s for Ref, 3 for Fort, 4 for Will so yeah, you'll be pretty well off (alternatively, by fractionals, they'll basically all be 6 or 5).


If you Ok'd a 6th class, you could be going Abjurant Champion for some extra AC and such. But I'd say that does pretty well overall here. The other option is Con-focus but that lacks something as bombtastic as Sorcerer on the other side.


So umm, over +25 in all saves, ~35-40 AC, Mettle and Evasion - I think that's what you wanted. Only downside is you gotta be Lawful Evil. Now, working the saves without Hexblade would require doing actual math. You get +9+6 from Paladin & levels alone.

Then you can cast Superior Resistance (you know a 6th level spell) for +6 so you only need 3 from each stat to maintain +25 at all times (turtle wants Con anyways, and Dex is the Kobold Bonus Stat). You can instead dip Pious Templar for Mettle and go to town anyways.

olentu
2009-09-02, 03:15 AM
Well in waiting for a reply Eldariel has posted basically what I was going for with a quich muild using a monstrous race except I was going to use a Gloura as it gets Chat to AC and saves for only 7 HD and 2 LA. So then one could put in some hexblade or pious templar for mettle.

Eldariel
2009-09-02, 03:23 AM
Well in waiting for a reply Eldariel has posted basically what I was going for with a quich muild using a monstrous race except I was going to use a Gloura as it gets Chat to AC and saves for only 7 HD and 2 LA. So then one could put in some hexblade or pious templar for mettle.

Oh, you could fit Arcane Duelist too then (if going with Pious Templar; gets rid of the alignment issues too).

So: Cha to Saves twice and Cha to AC thrice. Saves are gonna be...high enough and AC is gonna be even bigger. You're playing a race with +6 to Cha (and +5 to Dex) so yeah. Only problem is, you have no offense what-so-ever, but hey.

Eloel
2009-09-02, 03:24 AM
Loredrake cheese is banned & there's no stacking of the same ability to same stat twice. (No Cha to AC twice or Cha to Saves twice. Yeah, I know...)

Dragon Magazines (and Dragon Compendium), are banned for the extreme involvement of cheese in them.

JeminiZero
2009-09-02, 03:28 AM
Lets see, I would try something like 2 Paladin / 2 Sorc / 2 Unarmed Swordsage / 3 Jade Phoenix Mage // 0 Necropolitan / 9 Evolved Undead. Feat wise you need
-Ascetic Mage: Add to Cha to AC instead of Wis (you get Wis to AC from Swordsage 2)
-Adaptive Style: Must have for any Swordsage
-Practiced Spellcaster: to help make up partially for spell levels lost
-Early Level 2 Spells: You need this to qualify for JPM. There are several ways to get this. Precocious Apprentice is the most straight forward. And depending on how you read the rules, Versatile Spellcaster and any +1 Metamagic might also work. Kobold Rite of Passage should also work.

Nice to Have:
-Martial study 1 Iron Heart Maneuver: You can then spend another Feat for Ironheart Surge (Mwuhahaha), or you can pick up IHS from a Novice Iron Heart Vest for 3k GP.

Race Wise, any 0 LA race will do, since all your classes are within 1 level of each other. Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold would work for its handy rituals and high Cha.

So by level 9, you have: Undead Immunities, +9 Natural Armor, +18 Cha (+9 bonus), add Cha bonus to AC when in light armor. Without taking base Cha into account, thats +18 to AC easy. Add on Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold (18 base Cha) and all the magical enhancements to Cha and AC, and you can likely hit 40 AC easily. Oh, and you also add Cha to saves.

Offensive wise, you have spells as a Level 4 Sorc (or higher with Draconic Rite of Passage), Initiator level 7 (which qualifies your for level 4 maneuvers, including the broken Ironheart Surge) and +18 to Str to back up your punches.

Edit: Doh! I completely forgot about Mettle and Evasion. In that case you might have to go for 2 Paladin / 2 Monk / 1 Sorc / 3 Hexblade / 1 Warblade. You need Additional Favored Class: Hexblade to prevent multiclass penalty. On the Warblade splash at level 9 you can pick up Iron Heart Surge as your initiator level is 5 (including half of other non-initiator classes).

Eldariel
2009-09-02, 03:34 AM
What exactly are the limits on stat stacking? 'cause it sounds like it's time for a CON BOMB! Like umm, Were-Dire Vulture Dwarf Deepwarden/Fist of the Forests/whatever the hell else with Steadfast Determination and umm...some ToB levels and Action Before Thought. Gets you +16 Con (so starting 18 puts you at 34 before level-ups) and level-ups put you at 36 and 40 through ****.

You use Con for Fort & Will-saves and get it twice to AC (no matter what anyone says, 'cause one replaces Dex to AC and other just adds itself to AC, this works), which means you get AC 40 from your Con alone and +15 to Will and Fort-saves (with 6 from levels and +3-+4 resistance, you can do 25). Your Reflex will slightly suck, but c'est la vie. That's why I suggested Action Before Though. Mettle and Evasion as before.

olentu
2009-09-02, 03:35 AM
Oh, you could fit Arcane Duelist too then (if going with Pious Templar; gets rid of the alignment issues too).

So: Cha to Saves twice and Cha to AC thrice. Saves are gonna be...high enough and AC is gonna be even bigger. You're playing a race with +6 to Cha (and +5 to Dex) so yeah. Only problem is, you have no offense what-so-ever, but hey.

You really need to stop reading my mind and preempting me while I am checking on prestiege class requirements but yeah one could fit in arcane duelist if going pious templar though I think it would need fractional BAB and battle sorc to get the +5 BAB for pious templar and flaws for the 5 required feats by level 8 assuming arcane duelist requires an actual weapon proficiency feat otherwise fighter should do it assuming I have not missed anything.

Edit: Though it seems like it does not matter in any case.

Roc Ness
2009-09-02, 04:53 AM
What about playing as a pseudodragon? That would be interesting, and it does have stuff like NA and Tiny size...