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AxeD
2009-09-02, 07:06 AM
Does metamagic stack? For example, could a 20th lvl Wizard with the silent spell and maximise spell feats cast a maximised+silenced fireball? If so, what level spell slot would be required?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-02, 07:10 AM
It would be a 7th level spell I think.

AslanCross
2009-09-02, 07:12 AM
Metamagic does indeed stack, and there are many ways to reduce the raised levels. Arcane Thesis, Incantatrix, and various other cheesy methods.

kamikasei
2009-09-02, 07:13 AM
Does metamagic stack? For example, could a 20th lvl Wizard with the silent spell and maximise spell feats cast a maximised+silenced fireball? If so, what level spell slot would be required?

Yes, metamagic stacks. Take the adjustment to the spell level from each metamagic and add them together (so a Stilled and Silenced spell, both +1 metamagics, would be two spell levels higher than normal).

Note that certain metamagics may interact in particular ways - Empower and Maximise, for example - so check the text of the feats.

AxeD
2009-09-02, 07:37 AM
Yes, metamagic stacks. Take the adjustment to the spell level from each metamagic and add them together (so a Stilled and Silenced spell, both +1 metamagics, would be two spell levels higher than normal).

Note that certain metamagics may interact in particular ways - Empower and Maximise, for example - so check the text of the feats.

Thanks for clearing that up. I had a feeling that it would be something like that.

Dogmantra
2009-09-02, 08:19 AM
One caveat though: if you cast a maximised, empowered spell, the damage (or whatever) is not 1.5x maximum. It's Max damage + 1/2r roll.

Eloel
2009-09-02, 08:23 AM
What happens with an Enervate Empower spell? 2x or 2.25x?

vampire2948
2009-09-02, 08:28 AM
What happens with an Enervate Empower spell? 2x or 2.25x?

It is always calculated from the base damage. So an Enervated Empowered CL 10 Fireball would do 20d6 (150% + 50%) damage to the living, and 10d6 (50% + 50%) to the dead/constructs.

Kilmrak
2009-09-02, 09:25 AM
Does that mean I could stack Widen with itself a bunch of times? or extend for that matter?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-02, 09:30 AM
I do not believe so.


You cannot.

I was probably ninja'd with a quote.

EDIT: I guess not.

You are now.

sofawall
2009-09-02, 09:53 AM
You cannot.

I was probably ninja'd with a quote.

EDIT: I guess not.

vampire2948
2009-09-02, 09:57 AM
It'd be fun if you could... Arcane Thesis (Fireball) + Easy Metamagic (Empower) and then stack infinite amounts of Empower Spell on top of it.


You definitely can't.

kamikasei
2009-09-02, 09:59 AM
I was probably ninja'd with a quote.

Well, here's a quote, so what's this? CWSamurai-ing?


Multiple Metamagic Feats on a Spell ...You canít apply the same metamagic feat more than once to a single spell.

Source. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#metamagicFeats)

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-09-02, 11:50 AM
It is always calculated from the base damage. So an Enervated Empowered CL 10 Fireball would do 20d6 (150% + 50%) damage to the living, and 10d6 (50% + 50%) to the dead/constructs.

Nope, all metamagic is cumulative. The only pair that doesn't work like that is Empower and Maximize (for whatever reason) and that is specifically called out as such. All others stack in whatever order desired.

ericgrau
2009-09-02, 12:12 PM
An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus one-half the normally rolled result.

The explanation implies that this should apply to other combos, but I dunno if it does. Doesn't mean it doesn't though.

infinitypanda
2009-09-02, 01:51 PM
The explanation implies that this should apply to other combos, but I dunno if it does. Doesn't mean it doesn't though.

As far as I know, Maximize and Empower are the only ones that combine this way.

Keld Denar
2009-09-02, 01:55 PM
If metamagic didnt' stack, then there is no way you could do a Reached Chained spell, since both would only look at the base. Reach would work normally, but Chained would not because it doesn't qualify for the base. Same with Occular Spell + Persistant Spell or the entire Locate City bomb trick.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-02, 02:06 PM
If metamagic didnt' stack, then there is no way you could do a Reached Chained spell, since both would only look at the base. Reach would work normally, but Chained would not because it doesn't qualify for the base. Same with Occular Spell + Persistant Spell or the entire Locate City bomb trick.

Actually, assuming metamagic to not work that way actually suddenly makes the game rather more balanced. You could almost imagine that's what the writers originally intended, and they really meant all the metamagic slot lowering tricks to be used with Maximise-Empower combos.

But still, they probably do stack that way.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-02, 02:40 PM
The explanation implies that this should apply to other combos, but I dunno if it does. Doesn't mean it doesn't though.
The official FAQ has weighed in on the issue, everything except maximize and empower stacks exactly as one would expect.

PS. which is not to say reach+chain is entirely on the up and up. It's just like a ray but it's still a targeted spell, oh yes sirree ... nah, I never bought that (rays are not targeted spells normally).

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-09-02, 03:43 PM
Actually, assuming metamagic to not work that way actually suddenly makes the game rather more balanced. You could almost imagine that's what the writers originally intended, and they really meant all the metamagic slot lowering tricks to be used with Maximise-Empower combos.

But still, they probably do stack that way.

The problem is that while it makes things more balanced, it makes things quite a bit more complicated as well. If you have a widened empowered cold-substituted fireball, you have to apply damage types, areas, and amounts separately; if you have a chained extended bull's strength you have to track durations separately; any given combination would make things more complex. Even Maximize and Empower can be a pain, since you still need to roll instead of maximizing everything.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-02, 11:16 PM
And I'm not convinced that it's RAI. Assuming that metamagic feats and spells are balanced(I know, but that's what the designers thought), each additional spell level gives an increase in power, but the gap grows as you level(the designers couldn't have missed the non-linear scaling). A 3rd level spell metamagic'd to 5th level should be close in power to a 5th level spell. Similarly, a 5th level spell metamagic'd to 7th should be close to a 7th level spell. However, if metamagics don't stack, then adding 2 '+2' metamagics to a 3rd level spell costs like a 7th level spell, but has gotten the 3rd-5th increase twice rather than the 3rd-7th increase once. That is unbalanced down, and I doubt imbalance was a design goal of theirs. all evidence to the contrary ignored, of course

Fax Celestis
2009-09-02, 11:28 PM
And I'm not convinced that it's RAI. Assuming that metamagic feats and spells are balanced(I know, but that's what the designers thought), each additional spell level gives an increase in power, but the gap grows as you level(the designers couldn't have missed the non-linear scaling). A 3rd level spell metamagic'd to 5th level should be close in power to a 5th level spell. Similarly, a 5th level spell metamagic'd to 7th should be close to a 7th level spell. However, if metamagics don't stack, then adding 2 '+2' metamagics to a 3rd level spell costs like a 7th level spell, but has gotten the 3rd-5th increase twice rather than the 3rd-7th increase once. That is unbalanced down, and I doubt imbalance was a design goal of theirs. all evidence to the contrary ignored, of course

A lot of their metamagic feats follow this model. Chain, for instance, uses the difference between lightning bolt and chain lightning as its level adjustment. Same with Delay, fireball and delayed blast fireball.

BobVosh
2009-09-02, 11:43 PM
It'd be fun if you could... Arcane Thesis (Fireball) + Easy Metamagic (Empower) and then stack infinite amounts of Empower Spell on top of it.


You definitely can't.

Hmm. If it did you could destroy the solar system with that. Add easy metamagic (widen). Widen until the spell hits 2.41992386 ◊ 10^13 feet. (Distance of sun to Pluto at its furthest point. Empower....100 billion times. Buy a necklace of adaptation, cast immunity to fire, immunity to cold. Laugh as everything that is immune to fire is not going to suffocate, unless they fix that.

Mongoose87
2009-09-02, 11:46 PM
Hmm. If it did you could destroy the solar system with that. Add easy metamagic (widen). Widen until the spell hits 2.41992386 ◊ 10^13 feet. (Distance of sun to Pluto at its furthest point. Empower....100 billion times. Buy a necklace of adaptation, cast immunity to fire, immunity to cold. Laugh as everything that is immune to fire is not going to suffocate, unless they fix that.

It's no worse than use Iron Heart Surge to end the effect of the Sun.

BobVosh
2009-09-02, 11:52 PM
It's no worse than use Iron Heart Surge to end the effect of the Sun.

No, IHS to end the Sun is worse. Because it works by raw, mine is at least cheating.

Although there is a lot more things immune to cold and doesn't need food. (undead) than there are immune to fire and doesn't need food.

Iron Heart Surge is a ToB maneuver that ends "any effect" that is currently on you. Some people have ruled this to mean the sun shining down.
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Sholos
2009-09-03, 12:51 AM
What is this talk of ending the sun?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-03, 12:58 AM
What is this talk of ending the sun?Poorly-written ToB ability(that in no way reflects on the rest of the book) allowing you to permanently end one thing affecting you. I think we've figured out how to end the Sun, gravity, and magic so far.

Stupid Iron Heart Surge.

Eldariel
2009-09-03, 01:05 AM
Poorly-written ToB ability(that in no way reflects on the rest of the book) allowing you to permanently end one thing affecting you. I think we've figured out how to end the Sun, gravity, and magic so far.

Stupid Iron Heart Surge.

Remember though that Iron Heart Surge must ALWAYS be accompanied by a Roar of Effort which hinders its usefulness somewhat - there's a point at which you just CAN'T Roar anymore.

BobVosh
2009-09-03, 01:23 AM
Remember though that Iron Heart Surge must ALWAYS be accompanied by a Roar of Effort which hinders its usefulness somewhat - there's a point at which you just CAN'T Roar anymore.

Does it state they must hear the roar? I guess you can't use IHS to end death, but you can certainly roar so long as it is physically possible. Even if one can't hear you.

lothos
2009-09-04, 02:31 AM
Ok, I have a question. What if you use some method to lower the level increase of meta magic feats and apply multiple distinct feats ? For example, you have "Improved Metamagic" from the Epic Level handbook (v3.5) which states that your Metamagic feats raise a spell level 1 less, with a minimum inrease of 1.

So Empower raises the spell level 1, instead of 2.
Maximise raises it 2 instead of 3 (I think that's right).

if you had Improved Metamagic and wanted to BOTH Empower and Maximise say Fireball, would the spell level be:

a) 3 (Fireball) + 2 (Empower) + 3 (Maximise) -1 (Improved Metamagic one time) = 7th level spell

OR

b) 3 (Fireball) + 1 (Empower with IMM) + 2 (Maximise with IMM) = 6th level spell

?

Because I could imagine some epic level character taking Improved Metamagic 4 or 5 times (it says it stacks) and then doing something like a Maximixed, Empowered, Persistent... etc. Spell and only adding 3 to the level (the minimum of +1 per feat)

Any thoughts ?

Eldariel
2009-09-04, 02:33 AM
A) Would be vastly more fair.
B) Is how it works. See Improved Metamagic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedMetamagic). It simply reduces the modifiers of your metamagic feats. It does not influence the actual spell slots directly so A-interpretation cannot work.

Yes, we are all boned. The good news is that this means Wizards get by with minimal investment in Improved Metamagic giving them more feats to pick Multispell with, thus leading to all our sufferings ending faster.

Kylarra
2009-09-04, 02:37 AM
The usual trick is to do that with Arcane thesis (doesn't specifically prevent you from dropping adjustments to or below 0, as long as they total adjustment doesn't reduce the spell's level), incantrix (improved meta as capstone), and easy/practical metamagic.

Anyway to answer your question, it is B. Improved meta applies to each metamagic feat.


The spell slot modifier of all your metamagic feats is reduced by one level, to a minimum of +1. This feat has no effect on metamagic feats whose spell slot modifier is +1 or less.

edit: lol at being way ninja'd via distractions